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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| To the Sister who messaged me |
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| Caraj |
| 11/20/03 at 21:54:41 |
| Dear Sister X (I will keep names out of this) I chose to respond to you this way as I think my response may not only help you understand, but also others who may of been confused by my different responses over the last months. I cut and pasted your message but left out names ;) I will put a *** before my responses so you can see the difference between your message and my response. I just don't know how to change color or bold letters. Brothers and Sister, this will be kind of long, however I hope you will read the whole thing and offer this sister your advice too. Let me begin by saying, I have experienced many things good and bad in my short ;D 42 years. Some I definetly brought upon myself by immature and down right stupid choices, however some things I did not bring upon myself. I seek no pity, everything I have had to deal with makes me who I am today. I appreciate things more cause of things I went through. I can forgive cause I have been forgiven. I can understand because I have needed to be understood. You Sister and anyone else can ask what you wish. If my mistakes in life can help another avoid the same mistakes and therefore keep suffering consequenses away then SO BE IT. I have nothing to hide. Here is your message: YOU SAID: After reading your comments and advice, -------------- so that I may ask you somethings. The reason I am writing to you is because I have been reading your comments and advice about how to deal with such a man. The kind of man who is gentle and sweet but yet gives you mental abuse. ***** hmmmm you must be speaking of one of my sons I wrote about cause the men in my life were not both sweet & gentle yet abusive. (end) YOU SAID: I wish to know whether Islam says that a man has to physically abuse you before you decide to give up on him or can it involve other abuse which will make you loose all sorts of respect for him. ***** Sister I am not Muslim (yet) nor am I very educated in Islam or the Quran I am just learning, maybe another who is much MUCH more knowledgable can answer this for you, my apologies (end) YOU SAID: I strongly believe that a relationship is based upon trust and respect and that can give way to love and affection. However, if you don't even have the roots how can a tree grow? In my case, I have not yet lived with this man so as some say, "you never know a person until you live with them." ***** You don't, and if you are having doubts and concerns now I would be willing to bet you are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. Most show their best side and their total side show later. Not to say they are faking, the best side IS a part of them, but only a part. When you see an iceberg floating in the ocean the top is usually a small part and the biggest part is below unseen. If you are having concerns and issues now if you were my sister or daughter I would say to you, AT THE VERY LEAST postpone until you can check into this situation further. If there is behavior in your intended that really concerns you, then WAIT or Cancel (end) YOU SAID: True, but if I can see these things already, should I still try the live and see trial and error method to justify what I was thinking all along was correct. I don't mean to be rude Sis Azizah but what I am about to say may be too blunt. However I only bring it up because I am still confused. In one of the replys, you mentioned to ---- that you were dealing with your daughter-in-law for two years being nice to her and all and finally she came around. When I read that, I thought okay it's true, people do change for the better. But at the same time you went on to say that your ex-husband, the father of your two sons had suggested something else. What I am trying to find out here is that if you had been giving your ex-husband all the love and affection and valueing his opinion and all that stuff, how did he become an ex-husband. What went wrong? ***** Many different reason, My daughter-in-law did not jump up and sit on my stomach and try to punch me in the face because I was 15 and newly married just because I was afraid of a thunderstorm and wanted the window closed NOR did my daughter-in-law throw me up against a wall at 5 months pregnet during an arguement. I did not have to live, nor sleep, nor spend 27/7 with my daughter-in-law. He was 19, I was 15 and we both came from very dysfuntional families. Also at the time of my ex I was 15 to 20 in my dealings with him and with my daughter-in-law I was in my very late 30's a big maturity difference on my part. (end) YOU SAID: I don't mean to pry into your personal life and you don't have to respond as it is your choice. But I am confused that even if you shower a person with love and affection and understanding and put your feelings on the side and making the sacrifices and all that, how can things still not work out? **** Because no matter how much you are loving and affectionate, the other person a will of their own and is free to choose to change or stay the same. My prior advice works quite frequently, others on the board have varified this by their own experience however I never said it ALWAYS works.(end) YOU SAID: You see, I am quite scared of such a thing happening to me so I am currectly opting to call it off. I can do all those things as you and other sisters have mentioned in your advices but still ended up in divorce and it seems that the same happened to you. Please do correct me if I am wrong as I don't want to make up my mind with any wrong assumptions. **** I notice the younger we are the more we think we know it all and the more we think we can change a person. As we get older we come to our senses. We realize it is not our job to try to change people. For some this can be at 20 and others it can be in their 30's or 40's. If you are concerned and this person shows signs he may abuse you verbally or physically then I would say to you postpone this or call it off. I would say that to you if you were my daughter. As a person gets more confortable with the other you let your guard down (speaking of in marriage) People put up their best front at first. With my daughter-in-law I chose to love her not totally to change her, but I decided she was my sons wife and therefore now my daughter. She was deserving of all my love and respect and I would love her no matter how she treated me. I hoped I could love the meaness out of her, but I refused to be mean back. She through maturity and getting to know me and for whatever reasons in her own heart and mind changed. To love her no matter what was MY CHOICE and to be different toward me was HER CHOICE. Two sets of free will here. I was going to love and respect her no matter what. I thank God she did change her actions and feelings toward me. Oh and also, to be honest most of my origional motive was my love for my son. I was not going make things even harder on my son by responding to her behavior in a negitive manor. I could of been mean back, but in the end it would be my son who suffered most by his wife and my actions combined. With my ex, well I wasn't going to be verbally and emotionally and physically abuse waiting to see if he changed. He was also abusive to our sons. Starting as soon as the first born was 2 months old. So he was not only abusive to me but to the children. A far cry from the situation with my daughter-in-law. When our youngest was 2 months old I went to keep another young mom company while her hubby was at work in the evening. She was scared cause there had been a neighborhood rape. I left the baby with my hubby who called me mad saying COME GET THIS KID, I walked the two houses down to find my 2 month old with finger print marks on the back of his neck. Looking back I guess he was holding the crying child and held him tightly out of frustration. One child he tried to spank at 2 am cause he wet the bed. He was ill and in the bed with us. I think the child was 18 to 20 months at the time. So he did not just abuse me he also abused the child. However in defense of my ex, I was not a good wife either. I was very immature as he was also. I hope this answered your questions on why my advice is one way for an man (ex hubby) and different for a daughter-in-law. I invited any others on the board to respond to this sister. I can't spell check I need to get off the pc at this time and cannot spell check. I responded publically cause maybe someone else wonders as you did. Hope you do not mind. In conclusion it is one thing to enter a marriage with doubts and concerns and warning signs, and then once already in it, then it is hoped both will do their part to make it work. If you were already in the marriage and if you were not being physically abused I would suggest trying to love the meaness out of him, but if you are not in it yet, why even try. Dose this make sense or am I sounding contradicting ??? ((((((((sisterly hugs to you)))))))))))) And as to your situation, when in doubt and when you see red flags (warning signs) in my opinion and in my experience, time and prayer are VERY wonderful friends. |
| 11/20/03 at 22:21:38 |
| Caraj |
| Re: To the Sister who messaged me |
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| Caraj |
| 11/21/03 at 00:43:16 |
| PS: You also mentioned I find myself in the same kind of a situation. The only difference is I still have ------- left before I get married and already I can detect these things in my fiance. For about a couple of weeks now, I have been seriously considering calling off the wedding. My response to you: If you were my sister or daughter I would like to respond to you by saying, if you are having serious doubts and concerns about this mans charactor, his behavior or such things ask for a postponement. If he is loving and a kind man he would be disappointed but should respect and honor your request. There are many wonderful and much more knowledgable sisters on the board to talk to. Might I suggest Jannah and Kathy and Halima for starters. Other sister please don't be offended, I did not want to overwelm this sister and suggested 3 to begin with ;) |
| 11/21/03 at 12:41:03 |
| Caraj |
| Re: To the Sister who messaged me |
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| Fozia |
| 11/21/03 at 07:32:05 |
| [slm] Haven't read the second message from Sr. Azzizah so pardon my mistakes. BUT Islamically unreasonable behaviour is a good enough reason for divorce, just the fact you don't like him even if he's lovely is a good enough reason for divorce. Sr. you have doubts so don't do it, remember divorce although allowed is the least liked of actions by Allah (SWT). Perhaps these misgivings are a warning to you, either delay the marriage or put it off entirely, if your fiance is behaving in a manner which makes you unhappy now (keeping in mind this is supposed to be the period where he's trying to impress you with how wonderful he is), what on earth is he going to be like when he has you?? The idea of loving someone no matter how awful they are until they change is wonderful. BUT it can be untenable, think about it long and hard, you are going to be living under same roof as him, sleeping, eating with him, doing his washing.... I personally couldn't do it. If you marry him than go into it thinking this is how he will be forever, NOT this is how he will be till I change him, there's no guarantee he will change. Personally Sr. I would not enter into a relationship with anyone who treats me less than I deserve, take Sr. Azzizah's advice, please think about it ... This sends alarm bells tolling don't do it, do Istikahara speak to his friends find out how he is with them.... Wassalaam |
| Re: To the Sister who messaged me |
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| Maryam |
| 11/21/03 at 13:57:05 |
| Thanks to both Sis Azizah and Sis Fozia for your advice. I know everything is pointing to calling it off. He is actually not a bad man, but I don't think the two of us are compatible. He takes things I say in a different manner and lately i have been doing the same. Several months ago, when the proposal came, I had let my family know that I wasn't interested in him and not even interested in a marriage with anyone for at least a year or two. However, the pressure was immense and I agreed to say yes ojly if the Isitkhara turned out okay. I thought that surely Allah (swt) will guide me to the right path. I don't whether it was wrong to depend on an Istikhara if I wasn't interested from the beginning but I had no other choice. As it happened, the Istikhara turned out okay, sort of. I'd rather send you a private message to let you know what my father saw in his dream. Anyway, I had given my word so I stuck to it. However, I still have had doubts since then but I thought, that if Allah (swt) has indicated it is okay, then I should give it a chance and get to know him. Now, so much has happened in the last couple of months since the engagement that I don't know what to do. One part of me wants to end it, and the other says, Istikhara was okay, so stick to it. I really don't know what to do, but I have strong feelings that he is a nice guy, maybe he is not for me. If I'm not happy then I can't keep him happy, in turn I may not be right for him. As for speaking to his friends, unfortunately he is new to my state, and I can't really speak with his friends. He is the type who doesn't like me speaking to males, one time he got very upset that a male acquaintace emailed me some dua's and so forth. Naturally, I forwarded it to him, and he didn't like the fact that males were emailing me and that I did that as well. To clear my side, I explained that I have no wrong intentions and infact, we were just sending only hadiths back and forth. He didn't like that and since then forbade me to keep in touch with my male cousins as well. I thought he is not used to me and will get there as we get to know each other. But at another time, he didn't like me talking to my brother's friends, believe me sisters they are all just like brothers to me. I am so scared now to the point that I try to avoid interacting with the males around my work. I work in a business environment and always need to interact with all sorts of people. My brother and I have had to travel together visit a family friend, and I think that he didn't like that either. Do you see my point that I was with my brother. Sometimes I'm so scared that I start to sweat and shake with chills. Then I start hiding stuff from him. This is the kind of mental abuse that I'm talking about. I feel like I don't have control of my life anymore and this wedding is starting to feel more like a jail trap than a partnership in sharing two lives. I realize his points of views but my justification is that my intention behind any of this is not wrong or bad. My whole thing is that the initial Istikhara was okay so I don't know what to do now. My mind says to go ahead and do it but there is a question in my heart. I know that the heart has absolutely no connection to the brain. I don't want to disappoint anybody yet I am very confused. I don't know what to do. Sorry if this sounds like I'm rambling on with out a clue. I tried to present his views as well as I know he isn't here to defend himself. At times we do get along and can laugh with each other but lately I feel like that I've only been putting up a front to please everyone and only recently have I really looked at what my heart is saying. I don't know whether to go with what my mind is saying or with what my heart is saying. I don't know if another Istikhara would be a good idea at this time as it is soooooooo close to the wedding. I know it will be costly to call it all off as everyone has been getting prepared since the engagement couple of months ago. I don't know what to do. |
| Re: To the Sister who messaged me |
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| Fozia |
| 11/21/03 at 14:44:31 |
| [slm] Dear Sr. DONT DO IT. He doesn't like you travelling with your brother, related by blood, forget it, anyone who tries to make you break blood relations is going against Allah. Istikahara is not just what you dream, it's the feeling you have after making the decision too, the right decision makes you feel lighter you know for sure it's right. As you shared so much personal stuff with us I'll tell you about my younger sister. She had a proposal, before moi (I'm the eldest, but observe strict hijaab.. a lot of people don't even realise I exist :o). The guy was stunningly beautiful (I'm repeating what I heard), but for some reason my dad was like no, no way, no how, never. My mother begged my dad to consider it, so finally dad accepts he will speak to the family. They came to my aunts house, the father proceeds to ask about my fathers salary, and many many other extremely rude questions. His sister demands to see me for some bizzarre reason and anounces her daughter is something like 6 and has been engaged since she was 4 or something ridiculous, then she proceeds to insult the school my uncle is chairman of (bearing in mind she's sitting in his house and full well knows it). Then the absoloute icing on the cake, she says 'well the boy and girl may as well be introduced as you don't observe niqaab' (ooooh what it took not to kick her). Any ways they refused to leave, it gets late, my aunt starts putting bedding down for the night (this is back home). They finally left but only after there was nothing left to insult us for... A few months later we discover this person had in fact run off with someone else a while back but nobody saw fit to tell us.... >:( . Anyways my aunt pointed out that my fathers feelings were a form of Istikhara, it sounds a lot more sensible in Urdu but there you go. My darling Sister you will Inshallah get a wonderful life partner, I will pray for you for the rest of my life, just please don't marry this guy, if the thought of telling him you went somewhere with your own brother frightens you what will you be like once married to him. Also what will you do if this person starts accusing you of inappropriate behaviour prior to marriage based purely on the fact you received emails from a man?? It's not too far a leap from his current behaviour. Please Please don't do it, or at least repeat Istikhara until you get a clear idea..... I'm advising you on the basis of what I would do or what I would tell my own sisters please please reconsider it....... Life is too long to spend being unhappy. Wassalaam |
| Re: To the Sister who messaged me |
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| BroHanif |
| 11/21/03 at 17:51:05 |
| Salaams, I'm going the grain a bit but hang on sister your problem sounds serious especially if its mental abuse, the best advice would be to go to a counsellor, an Islamic one prefebly. Is there one available in your area??? I hope I don't sound so negative. Salaams Hanif |
| Re: To the Sister who messaged me |
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| timbuktu |
| 11/21/03 at 20:11:33 |
| [slm] the advice given by sisters azizah & Fozia is the one i would give, too. & istakhara was not OK! it is not dreams that tell you what is right, but your heart settles down to one of the choices. In your case, you still had & continue to have, doubts. & it would be hell living with such a suspicious & domineeering man. so, forget this particular man, i would advise. although all men are a little jealous & possessive, at least in the beginning. |
| 11/21/03 at 20:23:49 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: To the Sister who messaged me |
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| Kathy |
| 11/22/03 at 11:15:28 |
| [slm] A sis asked me to respond. I need more info. Why does she feel she has to marry him? Why can't she say no, or 'I need a bit more time?' What do her parents say about his seemingly controling ways? Do they think it would be good for her? What are his reasons for not being with her brother. Does he give any or is it a self made man-fatwa? A woman does not have to have any reason to "give up" on a man, pre marriage. Many of us have or had bad marriages... and ahve the scars to go with it. It is much easier to get rid of the man before, than after. Trust me, the controlling ones only get worse...once you truely "belong" to them. Many women have no concept of a tough marriage, especially if they have great dads and good marriages themselves... take their advice lightly. I think it is a sign from Allah swt that you see this before marriage. Many are not so lucky. There are many many great potential hubbies out there. Wait for the right one. Put your faith and hope and dreams in Allah swt. |
| Re: To the Sister who messaged me |
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| Caraj |
| 11/22/03 at 16:36:50 |
| Sister Maryam, Please let us know how it goes. Even if you choose a different path than our advice, we are not here to judge you, we are here for you. I sure hope you ask for a postponement. It will take great strength as I know there is a good chance folks on both sides will yell, fuss, threaten and munipulate you and also throw the guilt trips your way, especially it being only a week away. Be strong. Problems are much easier to work out before a marriage and not after. NOTE: a little fussing and making folks mad and upset now will only last a week or a month and a wrong or bad marriage can leave a life time of scars and wounds. If this man is jealous and controling and such before marriage I would bet the bank it would only be worse after you marry him. May Allah protect you and your heart and give you the knowledge and strength you will need to deal with this situation. Always remember, we are here for you. |
| 11/22/03 at 16:39:18 |
| Caraj |
| Re: To the Sister who messaged me |
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| Halima |
| 11/23/03 at 03:56:14 |
| Dear Sister Maryam, Please, please, please DO NOT GO AHEAD with the wedding! Marrying a man who is jealous now of even your own blood brother will be LIVING HELL. This man will NOT CHANGE. Don't dream of it. And going into a marriage because you DON'T WANT TO LET OTHER PEOPLE DOWN is a VERY BIG MISTAKE. A mistake you will live to REGRET everyday of your married life, however long it will take with this man. For this man's jealousness will become worse because once you become his wife, he will think he can control you and owns you. His behaviour testifies to that. Believe all of us (sisters and brothers) who have responded to you so far and have told you NOT GO THROUGH with the wedding. Remember, cancelling a wedding a IS NOT A CRIME. Please, Maryam, DO NOT be pressured for the wrong reasons. A bad marriage will AFFECT YOU MORE THAN a bad decision or a cancellation of a wedding. It SCARS YOU for life. And especially a first BAD MARRIAGE. There is another brother out there for you. Please look for one who will respect you and your wishes as you will respect his. Jealousy is not bad when it reflects love. But extreme jealousy is poison. And this is what this man has. I hope you will make the right choice by NOT MARRYING HIM, please. Wasalaam. Halima |
| Re: To the Sister who messaged me |
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| Caraj |
| 11/23/03 at 13:59:12 |
| I don't think she was was the board yesterday or today. I am actually so worried about her :'( Her wedding was a week away from her origional post 3 days ago. Gosh I feel like such a mommabear with you younger sisters and brothers out there. ;) Please everyone .....duas for this sister. I hope she gets to read all our posts soon. May she have the strength to at the very least postpone this wedding. You younger sisters need to be more careful about this marriage issue (is there a scolding smiley shaking it's finger? hint hint jannah) ;) I mean,,,,,,,,,REALLY ::) . I know it is wonderful to be loved and married. I know you all want to please and obey your parents. But come on, being in a hurry or being pressured is what I call Instand gratification, makes you and others involved feel ok for a little bit but can lead for misery. Long term gradification, is the reward of prayer, patience, strength and looking beyond the moment or even the year. Having the strength to stand up for yourselves when others are pressuring you, you need to value yourselves and you self worth so as not to get stuck with someone who will treat you with no respect and many times worse. I am speaking from the heart and from more experience than I care to admit to as I am ashamed of my past. But I know more about this than you younger sisters can ever imagine. Kathy, Halima, I think us three are the oldest sisters on the board, maybe we can do a thread, all three of us together on marriage and waiting and self-worth, IM me if you want to and we can do it. Other sisters who have some age and experience on them forgive me, I am not excluding you, I just know Sister Kathy and Sister Halima are my age. Feel free to IM me if anyone wants to particupate in such a thread. If my dumb and stupid choices and experience will help others I will put aside my embarrassment if it will help other sisters then SO BE IT. I just hope others won't think less of me. But if it helps just one then OH WELL ::) |
| 11/23/03 at 14:13:47 |
| Caraj |
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