A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| Caraj |
| 12/02/03 at 14:07:59 |
| I have a very sincere question. I was not sure if I should post this here or on one of the other boards. Please let me say first of all, 1) I am not trying to pick a fight, nor an arguement I am honestly HONESTLY trying to understand 2) If this is not in the right place or if it gets to heated I am trusting Jannahs judgement to do as she sees fit with this thread. 3) I am asking, begging, pleading, we all do our very best to keep personal emotions out of this, this is for understanding. I have thought of this for days (actually a few weeks) before posting this, there are some of us on the boards that don't always agree. But please know this is sincere from the heart and I truly wish to try to understand. Ok here goes. Why is this what the US says is a 'war on terror' regarded as a 'war on Islam' to some Muslims. I say some as some I know do not feel it is so. Ok here is why I wonder. A) Muslims can come here and buy property, get an education and set up business and buy land. In many countries UNLESS you are born there you cannot have a business nor buy land, etc. But here in the US they can. B) There are Mosques, Islamic centers and schools, Muslims are able to have those things and also to worship as they choose. Some countries this is not allowed. C) There are sisters in my community holding jobs in public stores and wearing hijab (which I think is an awesome show of there obiedance to God and shows they are more concerned with their beliefs and not what the world thinks) They are treated well and with respect and are a wonderful part of our community and we are a military communtity at that. I know myself and others I know would never tollerate rudeness or disrespect to these Muslims or anyone in our presence. Me personally if I witness it would be all over the culprit like a fly on stink. I know many others who feel the same way. Now if this was a 'war on Islam' why would all the above be allowed? Again, please, try to give me facts/reasons and not emotions. I do not wish to turn this thread into a bad thing that had to be locked. After all are we not all here to learn and grow and support & encourage each other? Thank you in advance for all responses pleaseeeeeeeee lets keep this educational and not throw in personal anger, hatred and such. |
| 12/02/03 at 14:08:39 |
| Caraj |
| Re: I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| Fozia |
| 12/02/03 at 15:37:14 |
| [slm] Not personally living in the US. This is just my own opinion. [*]The countries thus far being targeted by this 'War on Terrorism' are all Muslim. [*]The countries which are accused of harbouring WMD's are all Muslim. [*]The country attacked for supposedly harbouring WMD's was Muslim, the non- Muslim country [i]definitely[/i] producing the same, are being given a good talking to. [*]The prisoners in Camp whatever are all Muslim, and what irks me is that there is no concrete evidence against them, they are being detained indefinitely and whether their term yields a trial or freedom is anybody's guess. [*]Muslims have rights in America and the UK as it goes. But these rights are slowly being infringed. In the US Amex is cutting off credit to Muslim customers for no reason. In the UK a Muslim man was arrested for 'acts of terrorism' however before his case comes to trial the home secretary has labelled the entire creed terrorists. Many countries are banning the Hijaab, and this present anti-Islam wave is lending this infringement on personal freedom credibility. There'd be outrage if nuns were ordered to remove their wimple's. [*]In the UK we're not actually recognised officially, so where anti-Semitic remarks can get you arrested anti-Islamic remarks don't. [*] How many times have you opened the paper and read Terrorist??? Now tell me how many times you've read an article headed Terrorist and the person(s) involved not been Muslim?? For whatever reason Muslims have been labelled terrorists. However when someone like the IRA blow things up they are called a gang. One day when I wasn't looking apparently the OED definition of terrorist changed. Wasalaam |
| Re: I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| jannah |
| 12/02/03 at 15:48:12 |
| Hey Cara, While there are many Americans that support a tolerant multi-racial, multi-religious society, there are others that don't and recent US policies are anti-Muslim to put it mildly. A. Muslim properties, business's and lands have been frozen, confiscated and raided over the last years and they have yet to show any link to "terrorism". The fact that people can own land here without being born here isn't something that is pro-Muslim. It's just part of the laws of the US and in some other ("Muslim") countries it's there or isn't. The fact that it isn't and if this is an injustice that's a whole other issue. B. Mosques, Islamic Centers, Schools have recently gone through a lot of hardships. They are not allowed to build these in certain areas (ie check out the so. cali controversy and n. virginia). Muslims don't even give money to these organizations anymore because they are afraid to be "linked to terrorism". The fact that this isn't allowed/is curbed in some countries... Germany? France? I can't think of any others is another issue. C. I think you should talk to these hijabis you meet and ask them if they've received any prejudice/harassment. Because I know I have and I know all my friends have. From just dirty looks to downright trying to run you off the road to yelling things from the car next to you to not hiring you because you wear hijab. Add to this LAWS (not even some ppl's actions) that target only Muslims like the "Patriot" Act, Profiling laws, new INS laws. Detentions and deportations of HUNDREDS of Muslim men who have done NOTHING. (see Maher Arar's account of being deported or Ali Yaghi) Unfair policies targetting Muslims. Welcome to the "tolerant" United States. And add to this a head general in the Army that declares the war in Iraq is a CRUSADE, a time magazine front cover article suggesting people should CONVERT Muslims, major Christian leaders declaring Islam to be "terrorism" and insulting it's tenets. I would blame the media partly, enemies of Islam who are taking advantage partly, but I also blame a great majority of American Muslims who really don't know how to deal with this and are too involved with their own lives and their petty fighting in the mosques etc to try to do something... it's alot easier to take off their hijab then fight for their rights and so on... I think at one time the US had ideals of freedom justice and equality for everyone. But for some reason these days the backlash of ignorance and fear has been enough to overturn that at least for the case of Muslims... so when a person thinks this is a war on islam i just don't have any evidence to say it's not except for the platitudes of politicians or average people who don't know any better saying 'no it's not'. |
| 12/02/03 at 15:50:25 |
| jannah |
| Re: I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| humble_muslim |
| 12/02/03 at 16:09:28 |
| AA Actually I sometimes have thoughts similar to Azizah's. I don't know the answer. The whole world is a crazy paradox these days. |
| NS |
| Re: I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| lucid9 |
| 12/02/03 at 16:39:24 |
| [quote author=azizah link=board=ummah;num=1070392079;start=0#0 date=12/02/03 at 14:07:59] A) Muslims can come here and buy property, get an education and set up business and buy land. In many countries UNLESS you are born there you cannot have a business nor buy land, etc. But here in the US they can. [/quote] This only happens in the gulf like saudia arabia. But this is also prevents other muslims from owning property like indians, bangladeshis and pakistanis. This is a form of racism against anybody non-saudi, etc... [quote] B) There are Mosques, Islamic centers and schools, Muslims are able to have those things and also to worship as they choose. Some countries this is not allowed. [/quote] Again only in the gulf countries, in particular saudia arabia. In saudia they have a very different strand of islamic law which most muslims find rather oppressive. Another thing is in this respect saudia is also a rather special case because as the very center of islamic monethiesm -- it is like the vatican -- in that there are no places of worship for different religions there. Some people refer to a supposed saying of the prophet in referring to the land around Mecca and Medina "Let there not be two religions here...." I don't how authentic it is. [quote] C) There are sisters in my community holding jobs in public stores and wearing hijab (which I think is an awesome show of there obiedance to God and shows they are more concerned with their beliefs and not what the world thinks) They are treated well and with respect and are a wonderful part of our community and we are a military communtity at that. I know myself and others I know would never tollerate rudeness or disrespect to these Muslims or anyone in our presence. Me personally if I witness it would be all over the culprit like a fly on stink. I know many others who feel the same way. Now if this was a 'war on Islam' why would all the above be allowed? [/quote] Actually, foreigners, especially [i] white [/i] people are treated like royalty in every muslim country apart from Iraq and Afghanistan (because of an overt and threatening military presence there) . People are unusually nice to them. Nowadays there is a lot or resentment toward America. But Americans are still treated like princes. Believe me!! Everybody I know acts like this. |
| Re: I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 12/02/03 at 18:12:05 |
| How many times have you opened the paper and read Terrorist Now tell me how many times you've read an article headed Terrorist and the person(s) involved not been Muslim?? For whatever reason Muslims have been labelled terrorists. However when someone like the IRA blow things up they are called a gang. One day when I wasn't looking apparently the OED definition of terrorist changed. Really? I have always heard the term terorists for Baque and IRA bombing whenever they target civilians. The Greeks Have their own terrorists but the name escapes me right now and Italy had the red brigade and they were usually connected with terrorists. |
| Re: I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| Fozia |
| 12/02/03 at 18:19:31 |
| [slm] Growing up, the term terrorist was synonymous with the acts of the IRA, I'm old enough to remember the canary wharf bombing I heard it. It's just lately since 9/11 that only Muslims are called terrorists. About a month ago an IRA plot was discovered and they were called a gang not terrorists, they were planning on blowing things and people up too, but they were just a gang.... Just lately is all that I'm saying, show me I'm wrong Mike, quote me a news article which talks about non-Muslim terrorists post september 11. Wasalaam |
| Re: I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| Caraj |
| 12/02/03 at 18:59:33 |
| I have noticed lately the media is using the words, terrorist and terrorism like a 'fad' words. Now if there is a highway shooting, instead of calling it A highway shooting the media uses the words, domestic terrorism ::) I remember as child and teen hearing the word terrorist used when discribing the people bombing in Ireland and also those who hijacked jet liners in the 70's and 80's. As for Jannah mentioning asking the sisters in Hijab, I shall. However after 911 I remember one hijab sister saying people coming up to her wanting to give her a hug and let her know she was an accepted and cared for person in our community. (I know, ::) most don't know it is not cool to hug an unknown sister) I know there is hatred out there. In my heart I TRULY believe those who hate already did, they just now think they have an excuse, but the hatred and anger for life in general was already planted, 911 was an excuse to allow it to blossom in their hearts. I mean if it had been Non Muslims, people who hate JUST hate. This was just an excuse to be able to do it publically. It just never better happen in my presence. Sometimes all the hate and anger on both ends confuses and bugs me and I just want to understand why Muslims think it is a war on Islam. I wonder if the Japanese thought it was a war on buddism when we were at war with them? I also agree with Jannah about the Media. Anything for a story and sensationalism. Thank you all for your replies, I look forward to more and an educational discussion amoungst us all. And Fozia, there were japanese in camps during that time in history and there was no evidence on them either, it was just cause they were Japanese. I am really trying to understand where everyone is coming from. |
| 12/02/03 at 19:01:49 |
| Caraj |
| Re: I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| BroHanif |
| 12/02/03 at 20:00:09 |
| Salaams, Why don't we ask the man in charge of America... After Sept 11th infamous words that I will never forget until I die by Americas commander in chief, aka George War Bush. 'This Crusade, its gonna take some time' Words in error? certainly not, he said those words to test the water and response of Muslims worldwide and later delivered the onslaught on the innocent Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq. Now who were the Crusaders in early history, Right Wing Christians hell bent on capturing Palestine, killed thousands of Muslims and Jews in the process, in fact it was a bloodbath. Several hundred years later we have an alliance of right wing Christians and Zionists possibly on the same mission, coalition of the willing?. Coming of the Messiah?, maybe. War on Islam what do you think?. Salaams Hanif |
| Re: I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 12/02/03 at 23:15:10 |
| Bro hanif, with all due respect, it is not even close. I would consider myself a right wing christian and most of the people I associate with are also. Not one person I know of would ever think going to war would be a crusade in a religious sense. If you asked the average american about the crusades I doubt that more that 1 in 10 would even know who the 2 sides were on the crusades. As far as using the crusades in the vernacular it has no religious connotations at all. It is rather a question of semantics and people taking a meaning tof fit their preconcieved notions. For example whith the word jihad, the average muslim thinks of it as a dear religious term. I here the word and it conjures in my mind some guy stepping on a bus to kill innocent people or hijacking a plane. Well who is correct? I guess it depends on your point of view. In my personal opinion the crusades was the result of rulers using religion as a poitical tool with horrific results. The average right wing wing christian does not believe in a war against muslims. is there some who do? probably, but I havent met any. There are minorities on both sides that probably think that we must be at war. I can quote people on here that says that it is required for muslims to be at war with us. Do I believe that muslims are at war with us? there are some but I doubt in reality that it is a significant minority. But there are crazies on both sides. i am sure you can find quotes from some christain minister somewhere claiming goofball things, but I could find just as many muslim sheiks that make a similar idiotic claims. |
| Re: I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| bhaloo |
| 12/03/03 at 00:38:23 |
| [slm] This is a war on Islam. A few months ago I watched a Christian program on TV (it had an angel symbol at the bottom) that was supporting the killing of Muslims in the middle east. We are all familiar with some of the famous Christian leaders and their attacks on Islam: On his "700 Club" TV broadcast Pat Robertson said he disagreed with Bush: "I have taken issue with our esteemed president in regard to his stand in saying Islam is a peaceful religion. It's just not. And the Koran makes it very clear, if you see an infidel, you kill him." Rev. Franklin Graham , son of the fabled Billy Graham, calling Islam "a very evil and very wicked religion." Jerry Falwell on CBS’ 60 Minutes program called the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) a terrorist. ;================================ There was an Imaam visiting a masjid I attend from West Africa, he has a PHD, and he was collecting donations for the orphans there and for Islamic schools. He told us the Christian missionaries are very active there, they give food to the children only if they will convert to christianity. It is a very sad situation, and one of the former moderators on here had told me the same thing some time ago. Elsewhere I had read stories such as this on the net. There is also a christian priest I know out here, who admitted that they supplied bibles in Afghanistan to convert Muslims, what they are doing is against Islamic law and they were told not to, but they still did it. ;================================================= Bro. Hanif here's some more quotes to add to your collection: "It's really not a number I'm terribly interested in." -General Colin Powell [When asked about the number of Iraqi people who were slaughtered by Americans in the 1991 "Desert Storm" terror campaign (200,000 people!)] "If they turn on the radars we're going to blow up their goddamn SAMs (surface-to-air missiles). They know we own their country. We own their airspace... We dictate the way they live and talk. And that's what's great about America right now. It's a good thing, especially when there's a lot of oil out there we need." -U.S. Brig. General William Looney (Interview Washington Post, August 30, 1999) [Referring, in reality, to the brutal mass-murder of hundreds of civilian Iraqi men, women and children during 10,000 sorties by American/British war criminals in the first eight months of 1999] "The greatest crime since World War II has been U.S. foreign policy." -Ramsey Clark [Former U.S. Attorney General under President Lyndon Johnson] "Death squads have been created and used by the CIA around the world - particularly the Third World - since the late 1940s, a fact ignored by the elite-owned media." -Ralph McGehee [Former CIA analyst & Author] CIABASE; The Crisis of Democracy Deadly Deceits: My 25 years in the CIA |
| Re: I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| Caraj |
| 12/03/03 at 01:21:54 |
| [quote author=bhaloo link=board=ummah;num=1070392079;start=10#10 date=12/03/03 at 00:38:23][slm] On his "700 Club" TV broadcast Pat Robertson said he disagreed with Bush: "I have taken issue with our esteemed president in regard to his stand in saying Islam is a peaceful religion. It's just not. And the Koran makes it very clear, if you see an infidel, you kill him." [/quote] I have heard both this comment about killing infidels and I have heard some of you folks on the board about the Prophet being kind to non Muslims. So which is it? Do circumstances have something to do with it, and whoever answers this one can you please quote Quran to support your statement so Imay go read it. thank you ;================================ [quote author=bhaloo link=board=ummah;num=1070392079;start=10#10 date=12/03/03 at 00:38:23][slm] There was an Imaam visiting a masjid I attend from West Africa, he has a PHD, and he was collecting donations for the orphans there and for Islamic schools. He told us the Christian missionaries are very active there, they give food to the children only if they will convert to christianity. It is a very sad situation, and one of the former moderators on here had told me the same thing some time ago. Elsewhere I had read stories such as this on the net. There is also a christian priest I know out here, who admitted that they supplied bibles in Afghanistan to convert Muslims, what they are doing is against Islamic law and they were told not to, but they still did it. [/quote] I have read about this and it actually makes me angry, it is one thing to share your faith but why does one have to do this to a starving person? There is a Bible verse and maybe Mike would know better where it is, maybe I can find it, something about NOT LETTING the left hand know what the right one is doing??? I like to give without someone knowing it was me. I actually get a kick out of it. I don't want someone feeling obligated to me or embarrassed by their situation. And the Bible also mentions obeying the laws of the land Give to Ceasar what is Ceasars, so if this is against Islamic law why go to their counrty and do something against the law??? ;================================================= [quote author=bhaloo link=board=ummah;num=1070392079;start=10#10 date=12/03/03 at 00:38:23][slm] Bro. Hanif here's some more quotes to add to your collection: "It's really not a number I'm terribly interested in." -General Colin Powell [When asked about the number of Iraqi people who were slaughtered by Americans in the 1991 "Desert Storm" terror campaign (200,000 people!)] "If they turn on the radars we're going to blow up their goddamn SAMs (surface-to-air missiles). They know we own their country. We own their airspace... We dictate the way they live and talk. And that's what's great about America right now. It's a good thing, especially when there's a lot of oil out there we need." -U.S. Brig. General William Looney (Interview Washington Post, August 30, 1999) [Referring, in reality, to the brutal mass-murder of hundreds of civilian Iraqi men, women and children during 10,000 sorties by American/British war criminals in the first eight months of 1999] "The greatest crime since World War II has been U.S. foreign policy." -Ramsey Clark [Former U.S. Attorney General under President Lyndon Johnson] "Death squads have been created and used by the CIA around the wkrld - particularly the Third World - since the late 1940s, a fact ignored by the elite-owned media." -Ralph McGehee [Former CIA analyst & Author] CIABASE; The Crisis of Democracy Deadly Deceits: My 25 years in the CIA [/quote] This is disgusting, bhaloo where are you finding these? Is there a site people can go and read peoples talks and speeches? Cause if so I would love to research this stuff. (sigh) I just want to live in peace. I am just so tired of the whole situation out there. Not sure what else to say at this point, so best stop here (shakes her head) it is really not a number he is interested in hey??? |
| 12/03/03 at 01:24:11 |
| Caraj |
| Re: I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 12/03/03 at 01:29:30 |
| of course this is coming from someone who finds it is ok to mutiliate people if it will bring them to islam. |
| Re: I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 12/03/03 at 01:35:08 |
| Hanif, this was offered just a couple of days ago on this board as a quote from a very respected imam. do i take this quote and attribute it to all muslims or just the ones who think it is ok? I hope to God we are at war with people who think like that. |
| Re: I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| jannah |
| 12/03/03 at 02:08:20 |
| Mike don't take things out of context. "mutilating people to bring people to islam" doesn't make any sense it was forbidden by the prophet [saw] whether you agree with Islam or not has no bearing, nor does it have any bearing if no american in the united states does. the point is the actions of the US government, officials clergymen and even ordinary people has been appalling, hypocritical, unconstitutional, unethical and unfair. AND it isn't just muslims who think this... check out organizations like Women Against War, FAIR and ANSWER [in fact in studies done recently most Americans think they are in Iraq because Iraq perpetuated 9/11 (see following article)!!!] read some real news not controlled by corporate/politicians who stand to gain from lying and manipulating. seriously, all of us should be educated on what exactly is going on in the world and who is manipulating and lying. if you don't trust Muslims who u may believe have their own agneda, there are a lot of people (not muslim) who have seen what is really going on and are trying to create independent media outlets and for example can give you some real analysis on this war and what is really going on behind stuff like the (un)Patriot act!! Some good independent media outlets: http://www.alternet.org/ http://www.fair.org/ http://www.mediachannel.org/ http://www.commondreams.org/ http://www.inthesetimes.com/ http://indymedia.org/ Bush and Iraq: Mass Media, Mass Ignorance by Jeff Cohen The president's secret Thanksgiving trip to Iraq prompted predictable gushing from major media. As we head toward a presidential election, mainstream media and their pundits are telling us Bush will be difficult to beat. What mass media don't discuss much is their own role in public opinion and public ignorance, two measures that run hand in hand. That half or more Americans think Iraq was involved in the 9/11 attack -- perhaps the most media-covered event in our history -- stands as a horrific indictment of U.S. media today. Such levels of ignorance can't be found in other countries. Americans who are fundamentally misinformed about 9/11 provide the bulk of those tallied in polls as supporting Bush and the Iraq war. Subtract them from polls and Bush is an unpopular president -- widely seen as having accomplished a bait and switch, redirecting U.S. anger and vengeance toward a country that did not attack us. The run-up to the Iraq war offers a case study in news bias: how mainstream media, especially television, were incapable of getting the truth out in the face of administration lies and innuendo about Iraq's 9/11 role and weapons of mass destruction. Among experts internationally, there had been much debate and many doubts about Iraq being an imminent WMD threat. But there was little debate among the handpicked weapons "experts" who dominated U.S. television coverage in the build up to war -- and most of what they told us has turned out to be wrong. A media furor erupted over fictionalization in news accounts by New York Times reporter Jayson Blair, but not about the more momentous reporting -- illusory and scarily overstated -- by Times star Judith Miller on WMDs, both before and after the Iraq invasion. News outlets ideologically allied with Bush have been happy to assist in confusing the public about who had attacked us on 9/11 and in morphing our enemy from Al-Qaeda to Iraq. The Fox News Channel runs its "War on Terror" banner whether discussing Afghanistan or Iraq. Other outlets promoted the Saddam/911 confusion less out of ideology than ineptitude -- during a live, pre-war news conference at which the chief of Homeland Security described new terrorist threats from Al-Qaeda, MSNBC ran its banner: "Showdown with Saddam." While most of us who pay attention know who was and who wasn't behind 9/11, others get their news on the fly -- basically headlines and banners. But even Americans who say they're paying attention, at least to TV, are highly misinformed. A massive University of Maryland study found that most who get their news from commercial TV held at least one of three fundamental "misperceptions": that Iraq had been directly linked to 9/11, that WMDs had been found in Iraq or that world opinion supported the U.S. invasion of Iraq. Not unexpectedly, Fox News viewers were the most misled. But strong majorities of CBS, ABC, NBC and CNN viewers were also confused on at least one of these points. Among those informed on all three questions, only 23 percent supported Bush's war. Ultimately, the Iraq war was a "Rush Limbaugh/Fox News War" -- based on the premise that in our current media environment if you tell a lie forcefully and frequently enough, the lie will triumph. Limbaugh rose to be the top commentator in our country while conducting a reign of error virtually unnoticed by mainstream media. Fox News, with its "fair and balanced" mantra, became the top cable news channel while mainstream TV writers solemnly debated whether the channel was biased or not. The ideologues in the Bush White House apparently learned from watching the rise of Limbaugh and Fox News: When you invert or concoct reality, do so passionately and repetitively, and accuse anyone who challenges your reality of liberal bias...or treason. The media problem, of course, goes way beyond Fox to a broader timidity and fear of offending conservatives. In February, with the Iraq war approaching, MSNBC terminated Phil Donahue's primetime show after an internal NBC report complained that Donahue offered a "difficult public face for NBC in a time of war.... He seems to delight in presenting guests who are antiwar, anti-Bush and skeptical of the administration's motives." The report, which was never supposed to go public, described a nightmare scenario in which the show becomes "a home for the liberal antiwar agenda at the same time that our competitors are waving the flag at every opportunity." If you watched MSNBC before and during the war, you know that it was second to none in waving the flag at every opportunity -- part of a strategy that others in TV news are trying: "Let's outfox Fox." The spectrum of mainstream media discourse is so narrowly center-right that when major U.S. media finally started debating bias in their Iraq coverage this fall, the issue was not the obvious question of whether they've been war boosters instead of reporters, but whether their coverage was emphasizing the negative too much in the U.S. occupation of Iraq. The media debate in recent weeks has not been over an exit strategy, but whether the U.S. should deploy more troops -- a view expressed by Bill Press, who has represented the American left on national TV for eight years. |
| 12/03/03 at 02:36:28 |
| jannah |
| Re: I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| humble_muslim |
| 12/03/03 at 07:16:43 |
| AA Very intersting. As I read thru this thread, we seemed to have drifted off the main point. But as I am writing this, I note the following points about myself : 1. I just came back from Fajr, which is being done in a rented church. 2. I'm going to drop my kids off in a few minutes to the local Islamic school. 3. When I go to work, I will be able to do my salat in jammat thanks to the private prayer room granted to us. 4. I'm thinking of attending a local dawah activists meeting this weekend. Doesn't exactly sound like I'm opressed, does it? |
| NS |
| Re: I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| Fozia |
| 12/03/03 at 07:40:20 |
| [slm] Could someone quote how many thousands of innocents deaths was OK with Condoleezza Rice (or whatever her name is) to justify the ends i.e. victory for the US. Br Humayoun nobody (well I'm not) is disputing the fact that we currently enjoy freedom of worship but it's slowly being encroached upon. Yes we also have converted church's into Masjids, but we've actually bought them and they've been on the market as they have been unused and in bad repair, I think the roofs are made of iron or something and very expensive to repair couple that with a dwindling or non-existent congregation and they end up on the market. We have mosque near a football ground (Finsbury Park for ahl you brits), it was raided about a year ago and they found I think three men asleep in there (well it was something like 3am) a stun gun I think and a computer. It was then labelled a hotbed of terrorist activity and closed down, nobody has been allowed to use it since, a Masjid has been closed police entered it with guns and shoes.... The comments from the shopkeepers and local residence went thus; 'Gosh really there's a mosque there, we'd no idea, it's the football supporters we regularly have problems with'. One shop keeper severely ticked off by the incessant badgering of the press announced ' Well I'm certainly not a terrorist being Hendu everyone knows we're chicken...' I heard him say it but sadly it didn't make the paper... Wassalaam |
| Re: I have a 'VERY SINCERE' question |
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| Maliha |
| 12/03/03 at 08:21:52 |
| [slm] Bro Humble Muslim makes a good point...as long as we are sleeping in lush beds, enjoying the comforts and luxuries of the scraps uncle sam feeds us why whine and complain? So what thousands of Muslims are dying by the minute? So what whole countries were bombed and more are on the list? So what there are children that are hoarse from wailing and mothers too numb and listless to comfort them? So what the blood of our brothers and sisters is draining rivers in them "other" countries? So what many Fathers, brothers, and *awesome* practicing *activists* Muslims (out of the very few we have) have ended up in Guantanamo Bay with no trial, charges, lawyers, or even the decency of hygiene and basic human dignity? That's not us..no of course not...we are happy...we are the good Muslims that no one bothers. We spend mad time on the internet talking about them bad Muslims aint that good enuff people? Alhamdullillah for our blessings...I just wonder what I will say the day my soul is standing before His Majesty and I am questioned about each of these blessings that I am lavishly enjoying. I really wonder at what point we lost our compassion, vision, and our very essence...and what exactly it would take for us to regain it back. May Allah help and guide us all. [wlm] |
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| Fozia |
| 12/03/03 at 09:06:09 |
| [slm] I'm reminded of a poem written by I think a christian maybe or maybe not. It could have been written during or just after the second world war... The last line went something like 'Then when they came for me there was nobody left to stop them' or something like that, basically it said he had not don't anything when they came for the jews as he wasn't one of them, he did nothing when they came for the writers as he wasn't one of them etc. The last line illustrates that as he had don't nothing to help others there was none left to help him when they came for him.... I must see if I can dig it up and post it. Wassalaam |
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| timbuktu |
| 12/03/03 at 09:25:27 |
| [slm] i don't exactly remember the poem, but ...... first they came for the Jews, & i kept quiet, because i wasn't a jew then they came for the Poles, & i was silent, because i wasn't a Pole .......... then they came for me & there was none left, to speak up for me |
| 12/03/03 at 09:38:11 |
| timbuktu |
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| Fozia |
| 12/03/03 at 10:17:11 |
| [slm] Jazakallah Br. Timbuktu that so helped with my search, though there appears to be more than one version the gist is the same. [i]In Germany they first came for the Communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up. --The Reverend Martin Niemöller, a pastor in the German Confessing Church who spent seven years in a concentration camp. [/i] Wassalaam |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 12/03/03 at 10:34:29 |
| jannah, I think you missed my point. I do not believe that all muslims or even a good percentage of muslims think this way, but you can quote Franklin graham or Pat robertson or some headline maker and that is all they are, headline makers. I would never have come here if it wasn't the pastor of my church who told us that we should all read the quran, because it is important for us to now what people think and that we need to make friends with muslims. I belong to a very large churhc and i think that is the norm for christians, not the frankln graham comments. People here use quotes from meida whores to paint a broad stroke of predjudice and i was showing an example of how easy it would be for me to do the same. I have been coming here for over 2 years (can you believe that!!) to get other peoples opinions and the other side of the news. Some make me think and then some make me laugh at some of the ideas that are put up here. |
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| humble_muslim |
| 12/03/03 at 13:39:53 |
| AA I'm rather disturbed by some of the replies to what I have been saying. Am I commiting a sin by merely stating the facts? All the things I talked about - the salat in jammat/mosque, sending my kids to an islamic school, dawah activity, etc, are NOT a form of luxury, but a form of striving on my part. Why are these things being belillted? There's not much I can boast about in terms of good deeds, but I try to make an effort in my deen from whatever is available to me in this country. And for people to somehow link that to not showing compassion to my muslim brothers and sisters doesn't seem logical or polite. As far as the day of judgement is concerned, I will be asked about all these things on that day, and at least I'm making an effort in them. And before accusing me of losing my compassion, how does anyone know what I'm doing for my brothers and sisters worldwide? |
| NS |
| 12/03/03 at 13:58:04 |
| humble_muslim |
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| Caraj |
| 12/03/03 at 15:13:10 |
| I can see there are many different opinions. I do thank you all for sharing. It took me many days of thinking before I posted this, I was quite concern it would turn into a heated debate. It hasn't turned out half as bad as some previous threads, but may I ask everyone to be more careful of how they say things. I'm going to go out on a limb here, this is not to offend anyone, but Muslims in this country can do anything else any other american can. I do not deny there have been many injustices since 911 and I for one am truly and sincerely sorry for that. If you are in my country under honorable intentions and just simply want a better way of life than the country you come from and you just want a peaceful way of life for yourselves and your family, then I welcome you with open arms. I too do not always agree with my country but it must have something to offer that appealed to you to come here so can you at least appreciate that? When I see Islamic centers, and sisters in hijab being liked and respected in my community it makes me think........We have nothing against Islam, they are here just like Catholics, baptist, mormans, hindu's and all others, wanting to feed and raise their families. And practice their religion without fear of being condemed. I do promise you this, I will watch what my country is doing more closely, I will talk to others about Islam so they are not afraid and under misconceptions and I will teach my granddaughter to love and respect all people. I will speak and act more on issues and love and mercy and kindness and forgiveness and the reason our forefathers came to this country to begin with. If I hear or see an injustice I will speak up. Based on some posts, I fear this may be teadering on some getting angry and I just wanted to speak my heart before it got locked, hopefully it won't. |
| 12/03/03 at 15:18:02 |
| Caraj |
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| sofia |
| 12/03/03 at 16:02:17 |
| This country is and always has been a country of immigrants, so to say "my country" or "your country" when it comes to the US is kind of weird. Most groups have been ostracized, demonized, stigmatized, etc at one point or another in their history while here (or anywhere else where they are the minority). Not that I'm saying we should expect discrimination to be a norm. On the contrary, we should expect to learn from history and grow up. But looks like we have a tendency to keep repeating it. Anyhow, so to say that certain forms of discrimination against certain types of people doesn't exist, is a crying shame and irreflective of history and current events. It's also a shame to think that we or they or whoever are the only ones who have experienced it at some point or another. Anyhow, doubt that helped much. Maybe I didn't understand the point of this thread. Peace, Sofia |
| NS |
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| Maliha |
| 12/03/03 at 18:10:22 |
| [slm] Bro Humble Muslim I am really sorry for misunderstaning your post...you are right I have no idea who you are, and what you think, feel, or act and behind these really inept two dimensional screens we tend to form judgements simply based on strings of letters and words that are otherwise meaningless.... I guess the gist of my message really applies to anyone who thinks simply because today they have a job, and access to these fleeting opportunities does not mean we should be complacent at what's going on not just in the rest of the world, but to our own brothers and sisters that are being harrassed in this self same country we so proudly boast of. What happens when its us tommorow? I wonder if something were to happen to my husband, or my brother, and he was captured could I really depend on the "Ummah" to stand by me? What Ummah are we talking about? The suffering ones, or the ones buried under their own schedules and comfortable routines? These issues are really pertinent and scary to say the least... and I am extremely aware of each blessing bestowed upon me, and I am very painfully aware that my hands, feet, and very skin will each weave its own tale in front of Allah about what I did and purposedly chose not to do for His Cause. Azizah, your question is changing in nature...and I wonder whether you are addressing the immigrant who came to this country just recently, or the ones who came generations ago like Sofia pointed out? Is Kathy welcomed in your country too? Is Jannah, Se7en, and many others who are second generations, considered part of this country too? What about newly baptized citizens? What exactly defines who is full blooded American, who "welcomes" people here and who is not? I truly appreciate your efforts, Mashaallah, May Allah continue to guide and open your hearts..but I think you are missing the point of many of the posts (or I am)...In my opinion its not about being grateful, or happy for the blessings of being in this country..Alhamdullillah those blessings and opportunities come from Allah and we *must* take advantage of them in the right way and thank Him for it, and when that is not possible anymore then we should simply pack up and leave for the whole earth is Allah's land and its open and spread out to ease our Worship and Facilitation of our vicergerency on earth. You compared our situation to Japanese and why they didn't claim its about Buddhism...if the targets on this new "war" on/of "terror" were simply Arabs, or Indians, or God forbid the Actual perpetrators of the crimes then maybe we could concede to that position. We could say yes this is a war on terror going after the bad/extremist Mozlems..but its not. The attacks have been *deliberately* indescriminate..and aside from the many who were arrested with no cause here, and the other infamously bombed countries...In Kenya and other seemingly neutral countries the pressure is on those governments to pursue this war on terror..you know what that means? A 70 year old man was beaten senselessly and jailed, more fathers, children and even women are being rounded up for simple things like teaching the Quran, or going to the Masjid, or having study circles....is it shocking? Consider that this same thing is happening in this country too. The situation is not about whose country is better, for the whole world is messed up. The struggle is to stand up for Justice wherever you are, and simply holding fast to the Truth. I feel like we are standing on a landslide and soon things will catapult...in the end its not gonna matter which nation is the "victor" but True Justice will be metted out and it will be upto each individual soul to bear the burden of its own weight. May Allah have Mercy on our hardened hearts (Amin). Sis in struggle :( [wlm] |
| 12/03/03 at 18:11:59 |
| Maliha |
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| humble_muslim |
| 12/03/03 at 18:57:01 |
| [quote] I think you are missing the point of many of the posts (or I am)...In my opinion its not about being grateful, or happy for the blessings of being in this country..Alhamdullillah those blessings and opportunities come from Allah and we *must* take advantage of them in the right way and thank Him for it, and when that is not possible anymore then we should simply pack up and leave for the whole earth is Allah's land and its open and spread out to ease our Worship and Facilitation of our vicergerency on earth. [/quote] Maliha, I think that's exactly what I'm saying. The fact that I CAN practice my deen so freely in the USA means that there is more accountability for me to do it. But coming back to the original thread : I'm almost at the point where I've given up trying to work out what the hell is happening in this world. Maybe things are clear to you, but right now everythign is very confusing to me. So instead of wasting time trying to work out what is really going on, I want to spend my time doing stuff which I know for sure will, Inshallah, be beneficial to me in the hereafter. And the point I must stress is that, inspite of what the USA is doing thruout the world, in spite of the gross capitalism of the USA, in spite of the appaling immorality in the USA, in spite of all the unislamic things the USA sometimes stands for, I seem to be managing by the Grace of Allah SWT to hold on to my deen as well as (or mayber better) than if I lived anywhere else in the world. |
| NS |
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| Caraj |
| 12/03/03 at 19:28:38 |
| Yes, it does seem to be changing in nature like a raging river with many branching creeks and streams. As to the other mentioned, Shall I go back and rephrase my wording, as it appears it is being taken the wrong was, The 'my country' part. Most people say, my country, my son, my house, my town, my city, does not mean MY personal city as many others live there too. Same with the US it is my country and anyone elses who was either by birth or legal means. As to who in my opinion is welcomed here, anyone born here or who came here legally. I asked a dear friend the other day, we were discussing immigration and I asked, if I was found in your counrty with no visa or an expired visa what would happen to me? (if found there illegally) He said I would be taken to hell. But that is neither here not there in this topic, it has branched off and I thank everyone for their input, and as to why they think this is a war on Islam vs war on terrorism vs war on whatever. I sincerely thank all for their input, I am however concerned that a few in this thread have had their words picked apart or misunderstood and that concerns me, but I do respect we all have our own opinions. Like I said since the people in my community can worship and dress (hijah) and such as they want and as others do, and since they are liked and wanted and respected in our community, I did not see this war on Islam but I also do not know Bush's heart either. Oh and these people I speak of are immigrants not born here citizens, for whoever it was that asked. People who came here from Saudi, Iran and a few other places. |
| 12/03/03 at 19:31:10 |
| Caraj |
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| sal |
| 12/03/03 at 19:29:20 |
| [slm] I have heard some time ago ,about the french man who was converted to Muslem . He said Thanks to ALLAH that I didnt see the muslems before I converted to MUSLEM. what does this mean ? He has found the muslems different than what he has read in the QURAN .We Muslems sadly blame the west for hating us and our religion whilst we are not showing any real love to it . what have we done for the ISLAM ? are we muslems realy reflecting what the QURAN says? . what do you want the west to be with us whilst we are enemies to our selves ? Our borders are closed from one another .No unity between our countries . The same religion just with words and not reality we immigrate to the west and USA for a better life we dont have in our own homelands It might be less good treatment we might f ace in those countries . after what has happend after 911, but yet we have no that comparable democracy and freedom in our our nations . why do we blame the nonmuslems to us ,if we are the wrong examples they have as a sample ?and its us who are making them so with our wrong reflection to ISLAM. I think we need to know what we are supposed to be as MUSLEMS not as MUTAMASLMEEN They hate what they see ( us the mutamsalimeen) but if they understand the truth of ISLAM thy wont and this is our responsibility . how do they know the QURAN is right if they take it from our behavior it is what we have learnt from it ? isnt this a big mistake against our religion that we relate our wrong understanding to ISLAM ? doesnt it seem the easiet way to escape from a question by just saying this is what ISLAM says ? But as a result of this giving a wrong enterpretation to the learners . [wlm] |
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| Caraj |
| 12/03/03 at 20:03:52 |
| I know these subjects causes and stirs up great emotion in all our hearts, I thank you all for your responses and input. Maybe each of us gained some insight, maybe. bhaloo, if you get a chance I sure would like to know where you got your quotes and also you Bro Hanif, just so I can read more. If you get a chance. Thank you |
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| Maliha |
| 12/03/03 at 23:42:26 |
| [slm] Awwwww....poor sis Azizah she is working sooo hard to keep the thread civil:) and wow you actually succeeded..mad props to ya:) most threads of this nature would have degenerated (prolly) and locked (most likely) cuz it's really fun to type behind anonymous screens and ruffle feathers out there ;) I just wanted to clarify something Azizah, I think its too simplistic to say is this a war on Islam or not? There are too many stakeholders and each is achieving their own ends...there are those (amongst the Administration and the "elite") who are simply in it for greed/oil/wealth/accumulation, some who are simply out for power (most of the puppets in the regimes), some who really believe in the armageddon and are trying to make things happen (many of the extreme right are behind this force), there are those who simply like the sensationalism (media?), those who are coerced to carry the will of the elite (insert third world countries), there are those who are reacting/opposing/fighting the mischief spread by the above players.... then of course there is the "masses"...those of us who are caught in the crossfires of existence struggling to make sense of the madness. The above list is not conclusive...of course, when you get into the theories you get lost amidst them...(trying hard not to broach the subject of new world order etc ::) ) Because the goals are conflicting the results become messed up too..and the confusion reigns. Each player has a strategy and its very unclear what particular person holds what intentions..some of them are a little of the above... Allah Knows Best. but we plot and Allah Plots and He is the Best of Planners...so we simply struggle to do our personal best despite the situation/circumstances to be the best examples to humanity as bro sal stated, and pray for the best.... sigh...gotta go sleeb and hopefully dream of utopia instead of the madness of this world...tough chance huh? :P Sis in struggle :-) [wlm] |
| 12/03/03 at 23:44:41 |
| Maliha |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 12/04/03 at 00:16:01 |
| cuz it's really fun to type behind anonymous screens and ruffle feathers out there maliha, It wont be anon anymore when we all show up for Hamayoun's house warming party. or is it the wedding we are all going to show up at? I really really would hope that someday I can meet a few people here in person. |
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| Abdul_Hakeem_Yaqin |
| 12/04/03 at 06:01:54 |
| assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatu allahi wa barakatuh so you do enjoy some things in equal with others. that is good, but is that enough foundation for you to denounce oppression taking place? I was wondering, how much are you allowed to differ? In sweden we have so called freedom of religion, which is nothing but a joke. you are if your religion stays to be just a faith, and nothing but a faith, but not a practice, sure, go ahead, think what you wanna think. but when it comes to practice... sure, we have freedom of religion, as long as it is not seen or heard. have no clue to who this reply will be sent, since the reply button was on the bottom of the page. I wanted to reply to my brother in islaam, the humble muslim. if anyone belittle your acts, they are idiots. if anyone claims to know what you do, when they dont know, they are beyond idiots. not sure if I have missunderstood all the posts, but what I wanted to say to you was, that just because you are allowed to to those things you mentioned, I would never take that as a sign that US is not antiislaam. I think US has prooved so many times, who they truly are. In sweden the goverment says one thing with the mouth, or policy etc, but besides that, they do alot of other oppositing things, they are hypocrites. here you can go to masjid too, if you are allowed to build one. simply stated, you are allowed to do some things, as long as you dont differ too much. wasalaamu abdul hakeem yaqin |
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| Abdul_Hakeem_Yaqin |
| 12/04/03 at 06:13:26 |
| To Mike aka Itcorpest2 Really? I have always heard the term terorists for Baque and IRA bombing whenever they target civilians. The Greeks Have their own terrorists but the name escapes me right now and Italy had the red brigade and they were usually connected with terrorists. Yes. you are right. more than one group has been labelled terrorist. But, usually, it is only in one case, the so called faith is pointed out, and that happens alot abt muslims. Mike, tell me when you read in the newspaper, catholics, ortodox christians and bosnians, instead of, croats, serbs and muslims. or, catholics, serbs and bosnians, or croats, ortodox christians and bosnians. I might be wrong, but as I know, croats and serbs is citizenships, among some other things, but very odd they have to point out the faith when it comes to bosnians, hmmm. are all bosnians even muslims, funny thought. it is especially funny that the faith is pointed out, when the act in the case is something that has nothing to do with the faith. I know alot of people who act out of anger and hate for example. it is especially funny nowdays, when uneducated newspapers in europa claims that arabs are antisemite. next time I buy a gift for someone, it might be a couple of hundred dictionaries to some journalists. btw, your posting abt crusades and jihad, I might have missunderstood, but it seems as if you consider that words has no specific concept, they mean just anything ? n derived from that, just anything someone claims, must be truth ? abdul hakeem yaqin |
| 12/04/03 at 08:21:03 |
| Abdul_Hakeem_Yaqin |
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| Abdul_Hakeem_Yaqin |
| 12/04/03 at 06:17:34 |
| cuz it's really fun to type behind anonymous screens and ruffle feathers out there anonymous ? if someone can waste air to make a claim, they should also be able to stand up for that claim, or statement, or whatever Abdul Hakeem Yaqin Virvelvindsvägen 4L 222 27 Lund Sverige tel: 00 46 46 211 21 78 mobilephone: 076 - 235 08 79 |
| 12/04/03 at 06:20:52 |
| Abdul_Hakeem_Yaqin |
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| Maliha |
| 12/04/03 at 07:39:45 |
| [slm] Jeez Mike and Abdul Hakeem, thanks for taking the part of my post that's supposed to be a joke (about Anon) and not even conceding I was actually trying to make a point about intentions and goals :P Abdul Hakim, I would take down my extremely personal info if I were you...there are nuts out there..really ;) aight..i am done...i wonder why i tend to post most when I am really stressed out? hmmmm.... ::) [wlm] |
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| Abdul_Hakeem_Yaqin |
| 12/04/03 at 07:59:12 |
| nur alayl, I have no clue what your post is :(. What I have said has nothing to do with it, and I have no idea what anon is ? what is anon ? wasalaamu |
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| Fozia |
| 12/04/03 at 08:12:58 |
| [slm] anon=anonymous. The line you quoted on your previous post was not originally written by Mike he was quoting Sr. Nur-Al-Layl. Hope that makes sense. Wassalaam |
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| Abdul_Hakeem_Yaqin |
| 12/04/03 at 08:23:21 |
| [wlm] Fozia :) now I see, it was an abbreviation. thank you. I was sooo wondering, what on earth is anon... |
| 12/04/03 at 08:24:37 |
| Abdul_Hakeem_Yaqin |
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| Caraj |
| 12/04/03 at 12:55:09 |
| Abdul Hakeem Yaqin, The reason I started this thread was I do not see anti Islam in my community. I did not realize Sweden would be like you mention, they were the country that took the parents rights of spanking children is naughty. And based on other things they do I would of thought they would be more accepting. In my community a woman can get a job wearing hijab and it liked, respected and welcomed. I am not saying we don't have an occational idiot but they know not to do anything stupid as we don't tollerate hatred. I know many people that would scold and tell a person off if they were mean to another. No matter who they are. In my communtiy the nearest Islamic center was over 30 minutes away (60 in traffic) and they made one here, there was no fussing, no newspaper, media problems. After 911 there were many news articals and one told people of the Muslim clergy in the US military. My husband was in the military and there were Muslim brothers on his ship. And Friday prayer announced. I talked with sisters whose husbands were on the ship (not US born but now US citizens) and asked about the war and how the brothers coped during a time when a Muslim country was involved and they said they had jobs that were not directly related to things that would hurt Muslims. This is why I did not see this as a war on Islam. However I am worried and concerned what Bush's true motives are. |
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