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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Original Sin? |
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| Maliha |
| 12/02/03 at 22:59:42 |
| [slm] pardon my ignorance...but if the Original sin concept started with the Advent of Christianity (and a later addition from my prior limited understanding)..then why is the story of Adam and Eve found in the Old Testament? I found it perplexing...I guess a definition of the Old Testament would help..isn't that the Torah? If so, then do Jews have the same belief of Original Sin? Sorry guys just thinking aloud..my brain is kinda wired... Jazakumu Allahu Khayran for you help in advance:) [wlm] |
| Re: Original Sin? |
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| faith |
| 12/03/03 at 06:43:16 |
| [slm] I dont really know much about Old/New Testaments, but I would think that the story of Adam & Eve is told in all Scriptures (+ qur'an) to explain how mankind was created, and where mankind came from. :-) |
| Re: Original Sin? |
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| Maliha |
| 12/03/03 at 08:00:47 |
| [slm] hmm..thanks sis faith...I understand that the story itself isn't something new, yet why is the whole prelude to the Original sin in the Old testament? I don't understand, the Cursing of the woman, the banishment from Heaven, everything. I couldn't find this story in the New testament..or maybe i just still dont' know how to negotiate my way thru' the bible :P Anyone else wanna take a stab? ;) confused sis ::) [wlm] |
| Re: Original Sin? |
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| se7en |
| 12/03/03 at 12:46:24 |
| as salaamu alaykum, long time no see chica, I hope all is well insha'Allah :) not sure if the story itself is in the bible, but I got this from a christian site: [color=black] Biblically, God told Adam that he would die in the day that he disobeyed. Adam's death which was from sin was first spiritual, and then physical. This is the same sequence for all of humanity. We are all born with a built-in death warrant, which is our sin nature, because we have inherited this sin nature from Adam. We are already spiritually dead (separated from God). The Psalmist says Ps.58:3: "the wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth speaking lies. Ps.51:5 David claimed that he was conceived in iniquity." Job asks the question "What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous?" (Job 15:14) Job 25:4: "How then can man be righteous before God? Or how can he be pure who is born of a woman?" Eph. 2:3: "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." If their is no sin nature passed on then we have the potential to be perfect by not doing any wrong. But there is no one who can do this as Paul states Rom 3:10: "As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one" v.12 "They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one." If it were true that none of us are born sinful then each one of us is being tested all over again, just like Adam to see if we will fail. The Bible says that, "The wages of sin is death." Sin is first and then the consequence is the payoff. Romans 5:18 -19 says, "through one man's trespass, judgment came to all men, for by one man's disobedience all were made sinners." This Scripture clearly shows sin is inherited through his (Adam's) disobedience, not ours. The bible says we are all under the condemnation of sin. The Bible speaks of sin not as a biological flaw but a spiritual infection that is transmitted through the reproductive cycle finding itself in all humans corrupting their nature. Romans 3:23 says, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." If one entertains the though that they are born without sin, then they have the glory of God. The only one who has the glory of God as their nature is God. [/color] Alhamdulillah that we know Allah is Merciful and Just! "And no soul shall bear the burden of another" -- Qur'an |
| 12/03/03 at 12:49:47 |
| se7en |
| Re: Original Sin? |
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| Dawn |
| 12/04/03 at 06:48:12 |
| [slm] [quote] pardon my ignorance...but if the Original sin concept started with the Advent of Christianity (and a later addition from my prior limited understanding)..then why is the story of Adam and Eve found in the Old Testament? [/quote] You are right. The concept of original sin didn't start with the advent of Christianity, but rather some centuries later. It's been a long time since I looked at it, but I believe we can mostly thank Augustine of Hippo for that. The story of Adam and Eve is in the Old Testament simply because it was a part of the religious literature for that people group. Christianity "inherited" the old testament as it had its roots in Judaism. Jesus was, after all, Jewish. The story itself is an "explanation" story, telling why, for instance, there is death in the world, people wear clothes, giving birth inrolves terrible pain, etc. Original sin was read into the story many centuries later. And I think it only came about in Christianity because Christianity had already adopted the idea the Jesus died for the sins of humanity. This of course begged the questions, "why?". And one of the answers became that everyone was inherently sinful. [quote]I found it perplexing...I guess a definition of the Old Testament would help..isn't that the Torah? If so, then do Jews have the same belief of Original Sin? [/quote] The old testament contains more than just the Torah. It also contains a "history" of the people of Israel as well as many books of prophesy. (Let's not mistake prophesy for "telling the future" here. The job of these prophets was to warn the people away from idolatry, etc. The job of warning often included a "if you don't do this, then" sort of warning.) There are also some books of poetry and philosophy included. It is rather a diverse body of literature. To my knowledge, the notion of original sin is not extant in Judaism, though perhaps maybe one particular group here or there might have a similar concept. I don't know for sure. [quote]I couldn't find this story in the New testament..or maybe i just still dont' know how to negotiate my way thru' the bible [/quote] You won't find the whole story of Adam and Even in the new testament, though you will find a number of references to it, both in the books called the gospels and in the letters (most attributed to Paul, though modern scholarship has ruled out nearly half of those traditionally so attributed as actually coming from Paul himself, and has serious doubts about several others). This is because the authors of the new testament books presumed an audience who was already familiar with the story. I think the extract that se7en posted is pretty standard Christian thought on the issue, though there are plenty of Christians today who don't buy into the notion of Original Sin. They also tend to be among those who don't take the Genesis narrations literally. So, the notion is clearly tied to the whole story of "The Fall". Also there are plenty of Christians who simply define Original Sin as a human's propensity to sin, not as some inherited black spot on our record. It remains, even among Christians, a rather ill-defined term! Hope this is somewhat helpful! With Peace, Dawn |
| Re: Original Sin? |
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| Maliha |
| 12/04/03 at 07:23:01 |
| [slm] sigh of relief:) Thanks Dawn that was really helpful ;D Se7en, here's a [] for ya ;) aight...Dawn and other experts in this area, I have more questions:) a) The concept of the original sin is tied into the salvation theory right? and that is tied into the concept of Jesus as Son of God/God depending on who you talk to? When was this roughly added into the religion and why? i guess how did the people accept this too? b) What is the connection on Jesus and God according to the Christian..is there a standard definition? For every resource I checked out had a different version of the story...some say he is the bridge between humanity and God, others say he is God, others yet son of God etc? c) For Jesus to be elevated to the status of Son of God, and sinless prophet, other prophets had to be made sinful (I just learned this concept). Therefore the stories are marred with the other Prophets committing heinous crimes. Was this a later addition? Or did Jews/Christians believe other Prophets were sinful before the concept of Jesus as God/Son of God emerged? Sorry guys, I am buried in other details and this is stuff I just need to gain some clarity :-[ ummm...i got a commentary on the bible by Matthew Henry is that a good one? struggling sis :-) [wlm] |
| Re: Original Sin? |
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| Fozia |
| 12/04/03 at 08:09:36 |
| [quote author=Dawn link=board=lighthouse;num=1070423982;start=0#4 date=12/04/03 at 06:48:12] The story itself is an "explanation" story, telling why, for instance, there is death in the world, people wear clothes, giving birth involves terrible pain, etc. [/quote] [slm] Gotta stick my oar in here... umm giving birth hurts because of eating from the forbidden tree??? So like a staunch Christian would refuse an epidural because it's a punishment from god and she deserves it??? :o Wassalaam |
| Re: Original Sin? |
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| Dawn |
| 12/04/03 at 09:23:23 |
| [slm] OK, answering your questions in reverse order ... [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=lighthouse;num=1070423982;start=0#5 date=12/04/03 at 07:23:01] ummm...i got a commentary on the bible by Matthew Henry is that a good one?[/quote] The Matthew Henry commentary is a “classic”. It is older, and traditional, and hence perhaps the best known commentary. It isn’t all that complicated or in depth, but it is a reasonable start. I guess it all depends on how deep you want to go. There are commentaries out there that occupy entire library shelves, and come from every conceivable bend including, but not limited to, conservative protestant, catholic, and agnostic classics scholar. So, you really have your choice. I wouldn’t recommend buying one of these huge things. A trip or two the library when needed should suffice. ;) [quote]c) For Jesus to be elevated to the status of Son of God, and sinless prophet, other prophets had to be made sinful (I just learned this concept). Therefore the stories are marred with the other Prophets committing heinous crimes. Was this a later addition? Or did Jews/Christians believe other Prophets were sinful before the concept of Jesus as God/Son of God emerged?[/quote] As for sinless prophets being sinful, I am not sure which prophets you would be referring to. The literature we have as the Old Testament was there before the rise of Christianity, in various forms, and so the heinous crimes they are recorded as having committed were already in the record when the folks writing the New Testament were around. If you are talking about prophets after Jesus, then what you are referring to might be possible. But the concept of sinless/sinful prophet isn’t an issue in Judaism, as far as I am aware, so their literature doesn’t reflect that. So, I would have to say that, yes, the Jews/Christians believed other Prophets were sinful before the concept of Jesus as God/Son of God emerged. [quote]b) What is the connection on Jesus and God according to the Christian..is there a standard definition? For every resource I checked out had a different version of the story...some say he is the bridge between humanity and God, others say he is God, others yet son of God etc? [/quote] As for the connection between Jesus and God according to Christians, well, traditional Christianity, as well as the majority of Christians today, I would venture, views Jesus as one part of the Trinity – one God, three aspects. Some branches of Christianity would make that one God, three individuals, such as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (a.k.a. Mormons), among others. Some Christians are Unitarians, such as the Christadelphians. But the majority, I think, take Jesus as being, essentially, God appearing among humankind. (I will I.M. you some more on this, including references, so not as to clog this post.) [quote]a) The concept of the original sin is tied into the salvation theory right? and that is tied into the concept of Jesus as Son of God/God depending on who you talk to? [/quote] yes and yes [quote]When was this roughly added into the religion and why? i guess how did the people accept this too?[/quote] Is the “this” you are referring to, the concept of Jesus as God, or the concept of Jesus death offering salvation? Suffice it to say that majority acceptance among Christians of the idea of Jesus death as a sacrifice for sins (with a high probability, present among the people that knew Jesus while he was alive) is far older than majority acceptance of the idea of Jesus as God (took several centuries). Anyway, more on this in the I.M. too. [quote]So like a staunch Christian would refuse an epidural because it's a punishment from god and she deserves it [/quote] As for pain relief during birth, I know of no Christian who would refuse pain relief for that reason, though I know of many people who opt for a “natural birth” for other reasons, both Christian and non-Christian. On the other hand, it is not like I know every Christian in the world. ;) However, historically, I also know that a church leader here or there at various points in time have indeed forbidden the use of pain relief during birth because it is “supposed to be that way”. >:( Of course, there was debate at one time whether women had souls too. ::) However, since birthing in those times was a solely female affair, I have to doubt that such injunctions were widely followed. :P |
| 12/04/03 at 09:45:41 |
| Dawn |
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