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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Stones |
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| humble_muslim |
| 12/03/03 at 13:52:39 |
| AA Someone IM'ed me a question about my saying that there was a hadith in Bukhari which forbade using stones. I think this will be of benefit to more than just the indivual who IM'ed me, so here is the hadith in question : Volume 7, Book 67, Number 388: Narrated 'Abdullah bin Maghaffal: that he saw a man throwing stones with two fingers (at something) and said to him, "Do not throw stones, for Allah's Apostle has forbidden throwing stones, or he used to dislike it." 'Abdullah added: Throwing stones will neither hunt the game, nor kill (or hurt) an enemy, but it may break a tooth or gouge out an eye." Afterwards 'Abdullah once again saw the man throwing stones. He said to him, "I tell you that Allah's Apostle has forbidden or disliked the throwing the stones (in such a way), yet you are throwing stones! I shall not talk to you for such-and-such a period." |
| NS |
| Re: Stones |
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| BroHanif |
| 12/03/03 at 15:22:17 |
| Salaams, I think its a bit different bro humble, you can have stones as marbles or you can have big rocks that were used to knock down strong castles and enemy buildings from catapults. Hmm going by the hadith what should the Palestinians do now if they can not throw stones?. Wait for the army of Mehdi to rescue em? I don't think so let them defend their land with rocks and pebbles if need be as that is surely better than not acting. Salaams Hanif |
| Re: Stones |
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| humble_muslim |
| 12/03/03 at 15:28:06 |
| AA Let me get one thing clear here. I was not intending by posting this hadith to start a debate on the Palestinians. I deliberately offered no comments to this hadith, nor will I do so, nor am I qualified to do so : this is simply an FYI. |
| NS |
| Re: Stones |
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| BroHanif |
| 12/03/03 at 16:09:34 |
| Salaams, Ehhh??? Emm ok then why post something like that bro? C'mon bro lets chill here didn't mean to cause offend.. Salaams Hanif |
| Re: Stones |
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| humble_muslim |
| 12/03/03 at 18:49:55 |
| AA That's ok Hanif, just been a bit tense on the Ummah Community Center lately. Things I say sometimes get misconstrued. The reason I put this up was because in another post, I mentioned that "I read a hadith in Bukhari that said the Prophet (SAW) forbade the use of stones". Someone simply asked me for the reference, so I posted it up here for all to see. |
| NS |
| Re: Stones |
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| Fozia |
| 12/03/03 at 19:05:45 |
| [slm] I couldn't sleep. Br. Humble Muslim the hadith you are referring to I've read it and here's what I've read; A young nephew of Hadrat Abdullah-bin-Mughaffal (RA) was playing 'Kahzaf' this is a game where a pebble is placed on the thumb and then thrown with the force of the other fingers, it was a game children were fond of playing. Hadrat Abdullah-bin-Mughaffal told his nephew to stop playing it saying the 'Prophet(saw) had prohibited it's play. It can neither shoot a bird nor harm an enemy. It is likely to injure sombody's eye or tooth' The nephew desisted for a time then began playing again which greatly dipleased his uncle who refused to speak to him thereafter as his nephew had disregarded the words of Allah's prophet (saw). And Allah knows best... At least I can go to sleep now. Wassalaam |
| 12/04/03 at 07:54:59 |
| Fozia |
| Re: Stones |
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| faisalsb |
| 12/04/03 at 05:26:01 |
| [slm] Well although it's contraversial discussion but still we must not forget that right path is what is defined in Quran and Sunnah and that's the ONLY truth. Anything which is not based on those two sources or which is not derived from them and more over which is against teachings of Islam can be anything but not Islam. Where ever question of islamic movements in Palestine, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Chechnyia and other parts of the world are concerned I think they are based on just cause and we must support them in all possible ways what we have control on. But we must not forget that Islam even teaches us rules and regulations of war and armed conflicts as well as there is also wisdom in the actions of Holy Prophet [saw] what he [saw] took when he [saw] himself was leading the Islamic movement. Holy Prophet [saw] didn't initiate any conflict with enemies of Islam while he [saw] was in Makka although muslims and Holy Prophet [saw] himself was humilated in the worst way possible. Instead he [saw] was asked to migrate to Madina when attrocities went behond limits. Second example is Sulah Hudaibia (peace pact) between muslims and kuffars which was criticised by many companions of Holy Prophet [saw] but Holy Prophet [saw] called it Fateh-i-Mobeen (great success). Third example is when Holy Prophet [saw] made peace contract with Jews of Madina. The point what I am trying to make is that it was wise leadership of Holy Prophet [saw] which enabled muslims to become an unbeatable force in the Arab land only in 12 years. Muslims entered Makka as conqueror only after 12 years where initially they were kicked out of. Muslims had become such a emerging force within short period of time that so called super powers of the time known as Iran and Rome got scared of it. Today we have Islamic movements for God knows how many decades but they have brought nothing to mulsim ummah except deeper humiliation and misery. Millions of people have been killed and humiliated on name of Islam but still we are not even near to success. It's promise of Allah subhan wa tallah in Quran that TRUTH is to prevail and FALSEHOOD to be dinimished. So the question is either the promise of Allah subhan wa tallah is wrong (nauzbillah) or what we are holding or fighting for is SOMETHING else but not TRUTH? |
| Re: Stones |
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| timbuktu |
| 12/04/03 at 07:26:43 |
| [slm] dear brother Faisal Siddique, & all other brother & sisters if i may be allowed to differ about movements. I look at all these movements as the way forward. As i looked at history, i found that we had strayed too far, & the movements were started to correct us, & there was correction. Then the pendulum swung too far on another side, & a new correction was needed. This is in the nature of humanity, & in line with what the prophet [saw] has told us. so, i am not upset by the failure of movements. They do not fail, they bring a correction sorely needed. i see all history in this way. perhaps the correction is way too much at times. I do not judge movements by their success or failure to obtain political dominance. So look at history this way. The last prophet has come & gone, & there will be no more prophets, but mankind (&womankind :)) will continue to experiment with Satanic ways. The Ummah is supposed to lead mankind back to al-Islam. & political leadership (Khilafa) is also for the same end. Now, if the Ummah degenerates into enjoying the world, & forgets what it was created for, what will happen? The subjugation of the Ummah was due to this, & for this end. When we did not take the dawah to the non-muslims, Allah (swt) made them our colonial masters, so we were given a chance to present the deen in our environment (& of course to learn from them). When we failed, we were given nominal independence, but the economies of the non-muslim world needed manpower, & muslims also migrated there in large numbers, so we could present the deen in their environment. Now, it is up to you. will you try my view of history? does it make sense? |
| 12/05/03 at 05:20:02 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Stones |
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| lightUponLight.Com |
| 12/05/03 at 02:57:18 |
| Assalam ailikum wa rahmatulah Dear brothers. This hadith about throwing stones is for slaughtering game.. not regarding warfare. Using stones, and all blunt objects, or a rusty knife that isnt sharp enough, all of these are forbidden because its torture to the animal you are going to eat. We reduce the pain as much as possible. If you thought this hadith of how to slaughter animals was to be followed in war, then wouldn't a person have to say "Bismillah" and "AllahuAkbar" before killing someone in war, and make sure they were sliced in the jugular vein? :) so i wouldnt use this hadith as proof of throwing stones is haram plus if stones are haram, guns are probably haram too then because they are like superfast stones Also how about stoning a person for adultery? Abdullah |
| Re: Stones |
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| Maliha |
| 12/05/03 at 03:27:22 |
| [slm] May be I am really stupid or sumthing, but since when did any layman have the authority to make a hukum based on one hadith only??? I think everyone should read "Principles of Jurisprudence" By Kamali. Good read..it would give the average "me" a nice tutorial on how decisions are made by Ulamah and how *much* textual analysis goes into it. sigh...the problem of picking up a hadith and running with it, is the same as the media and their best buddies picking one ayah, out of context and calling Islam a terrorist religion. ::) come on guys, we need to be A LOT more intelligent than this..sheesh! [wlm] |
| [slm][slm]Re: Stones |
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| faisalsb |
| 12/05/03 at 07:50:17 |
| [slm] Well I suppose we have extra generous brothers and sisters on the board because I expected much offensive and irrelevant posts but didn't get any such thing. I think I am pessimistic sometimes .... :) I think I couldn't convey very well what I meant exactly. Ghazwa-i-Uhud is another example to explain what I was trying to say. That war was led by Holy Prophet [saw] himself so the leadership was one of the most sincere leadership in the universe. Many of the participants of the war were who also took part in Ghazwa-i-Badr. It's mentioned in Quran that Allah has forgiven the mujahadeen who took part in Ghazwa-i-Badr. So most of the participants were also amongst the best people on the eart. BUT still muslims were defeated in the war and it was the only war when Holy Prophet [saw] himself came under heavy attack and his [saw] two teeth were martyred. The question is why it happened? Because SOME of the people, who Holy Prophet [saw] ordered to stay on top of the mountain until he [saw] himself ask them to come down and fire arrows on enemy if they attack from behind, disobeyed Rasool Allah [saw]. And when they saw the enemy was initially defeated and running away they came down from the mountain so they can also collect booty. So only few people were left on the mountain. The enemy took advantage and they attacked from behind again and they easily got hold of few of the mujahadeen still left on top of the mountain. So the muslims were caught in surprise when they were busy in collecting booty. And that's the time when they were even able to attack Holy Prophet [saw]. There is another example although I am not sure about it's authenticity so please correct me if I am wrong. Once muslims attacked some city and they were defeated. Muslims attacked again and again they were unsuccessful. Breifly they made many attempts but non of them worked. So the meeting was called and all of them were agreed that its happening because they have given up some sunnah of Holy Prophet [saw]. Soon they came to know that non of them were doing muswak (brushing up of teeth) anymore. The commander ordered the whole army and all of them sat beside the river and started doing muswak. When the enemy saw the scene they thought muslims were human eater and they were getting prepared to eat them alive. So when muslims attacked again they conquered the city without any resistance. So my point is that success is only in obeying of Allah and Holy Prophet [saw]. When ever we obeyed Allah and his messenger [saw] we got success and whenever we obeyed our own desires we were humiliated. But at the same time I don't mean that we get ourselves alien from Islamic movements and believe in baseless propoganda of Kufars which try to prove all practicing muslims as extremist and terrorist. Well I am agreed with the point that we can't judge the movement by it's success but still Islamic movement can't be run through non Islamic means and actions. [quote] So look at history this way. The last prophet has come & gone, & there will be no more prophets, but mankind (&womankind ) will continue to experiment with Satanic ways. The Ummah is supposed to lead mankind back to al-Islam. & political leadership (Khilafa) is also for the same end. Now, if the Ummah degenerates into enjoying the world, & forgets what it was created for, what will happen?[/quote] Brother timbuktu your point is very valid but we can't replace Satanic ways with other satanic ways. Rivival of Islam can't be through non Islamic means and action. [quote]The subjugation of the Ummah was due to this, & for this end. When we did not take the dawah to the non-muslims, Allah (SubHana Wa Ta`ala) made them our colonial masters, so we were given a chance to present the deen in our environment (& of course to learn from them). When we failed, we were given nominal independence, but the economies of the non-muslim world needed manpower, & muslims also migrated there in large numbers, so we could present the deen in their environment. Now, it is up to you.[/quote] I don't know either I should say fortunately or unfortunately I am also one of those people who are working away from their homeland. But one thing I am sure about I didn't come here to spread deen but to make MONEY. I might be doing some good things also but all of us know what was basic reason behind our migration. [quote]will you try my view of history? does it make sense? [/quote] It very much make sense brother .....:) [quote]May be I am really stupid or sumthing, but since when did any layman have the authority to make a hukum based on one hadith only [/quote] Sister it's not question of throwing stones only. Like you I am also not sure about it's deeper interpretaton but I was talking in broader sense. For instace intentionally targeting unarmed civilians, women, kids and aged people or blowing up civilian airplanes etc Those are the things which are clearly haram and are not even allowed in war. Actually this topic was initiated long time ago but people got so heated up that the thread was locked before I could share my two cents about the topic. So this time I just took my chance before it's locked again ......:) |
| Re: Stones |
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| Maliha |
| 12/05/03 at 10:02:42 |
| [slm] hmmm...i must be really stupid then. Cuz I never failed to be surprised at how fast the un knowledgable layman today would give their opinion on any religious verdict and how quick the very best of our Ulamah would say "I don't know". There must be a disconnect somewhere...and perchance its not really about whether we use the miswak or not, but maybe its about trying to seek some *real* knowledge before opening our mouths? and trust me Real Ilm can not be solicited and derived from internet boards. :P label me ignorant :-) [wlm] |
| Re: Stones |
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| timbuktu |
| 12/05/03 at 10:13:29 |
| [slm] dear brother Faisal, no one will disagree with your basic thesis that the way to our recovery is in the ittiba`a of the prophet [saw]. does it matter what you went abroad for? The whole Universe is Allah's, & we are to make use of it for the ends HE has designated, & to use (not waste) its resources. Once one realises what one has ben created for, life should be oriented towards that end. Learning technologies, sciences, even the insight into humanities & social sciences is good, if the aim is to serve Allah. Making money in halal ways so that you are not dependent on others is commendable. making more money so you can invest & provide jobs to people is fine. Making money so one can show off, or spend in haraam ways is the Satanic way. & sister Nur_al_Layl is so right. Towards the end of times, real scholars will be scarce, & ignorant ones will offer their advice without even being solicited. i, most of all, fall in this latter category. so i must be quiet? on fatwas, yes. analysis: perhaps the ignorant ones are allowed? |
| 12/05/03 at 10:17:54 |
| timbuktu |
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