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I know a smart person...
theOriginal
12/06/03 at 19:59:08
[slm]

Brother of the best friend of my cousin, who I "ran into" the other.  That's in quotes, because it's a little more complicated than that.  I mean, I've heard quite a bit about this dude from my cousin, and everything I've been told, so far, rings true.  Basically, he's an incredible over-achiever, is super smart (medical doctor, just finished a masters in some cutting edge research type thing), very well read, extremely well-traveled, accomplished family, famous relatives, etc etc.  

(Okay, maybe I should add a caveat: no, this thread has nothing to do with marriage.)  

Anyway, so like I said, I met him a few weeks ago, and since then, we've had a few very intriguing, complex, scientific, mathematical conversations (either in person, or through email) about life, it's meaning, religion, it's meaning, death, it's meaning, barney the purple dinosaur, and other very relevant and not so relevant topics.

Anyway, my brain has so much food for thought, that I started taking notes (which really shows how perplexing this whole thing is), and I have so many questions now, that I figured I could pose them to my oh-so-wonderful, better-informed Madina brothers and sisters.  

(One more caveat: this guy is shia, so perhaps his views differ because of the difference in aqeedah?  Although, I'm pretty sure we have stayed away from the sectarian babble)  

So he said this one thing (and this is a direct quote), which I was SHOCKED over...really still haven't gotten over it...and I need some mad clarification (for myself):

(the justification he refers to in the first sentence was the lead-in of Hadhrat Ayesha's (ra) marriage to the Prophet (saw) )  

"justify and rationalize it as we might, to people who weren't raised with the idea that we were since we were little babies, that doesn't seem right. neither does that fact that he had a child (ibraheem, who died at the age of 1 on eid ul-adha) with the coptic slave girl maria, who he wasn't married to (as you know, in islam, slave-girls -- "the women that your right hands possess" -- are legal without wedlock).   so there are reasons (rationalizations?) that we have for these things as muslims, but to the catholics, they probably find it as absurd as we find a lot of their stuff to be. again, it's all about perception, and that accident of birth. you could have been a hardcore, practicing hindu if you were born into it. "

Is that for real?  How come it's never talked about if it is?  That would make Ibraheem the seventh child, and I've NEVER heard that before.  That sounds very strange to me.  And he makes his subtle point about Islam very casually with that one.

Another very thought-provoking statement:

"the purpose of life -- i'd love to hear what you have to say on that. i wonder if it's anything like this: i've got bacteria having the human gene for insulin in a petri dish, in a culture with all the optimal nutrients and requirements they need. they're stored at 37 degrees, with 5% carbon dioxide -- exactly perfect for them. i need them to reproduce and make me loads of insulin that i can give to my diabetic patients. so i'm not very worried about which ones are nice to each other or do good deeds -- i just want the strongest ones to survive. and they can sit there and wonder forever about their purpose, why they're given these perfect conditions to live in, and that whoever did this for them must really love them and so on, but they can't comprehend anything past their unicellular potential. eventually, i scrap the entire dish, collect the insulin, and bleach all the bacteria. it would be so sad if that was our state. sure hope it isn't. NASA has come up with their working definition of life: 'Life is a self-sustained chemical system capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution.' nice and personal, huh? where's the love in that?"

How about this one:

"religion: sometimes the word of god, sometimes a collective societal delusion (look up the definition of that word -- it's interesting), and sometimes a huge defense mechanism. i really want to believe in something, and hopefully by the time i hit 40, i'll be * enough bricks during my mid-life crisis to be able to find god. but then again, using fear to instill morality in people. such a human thing to do. maybe that's the only way it works. we'll see."

Yet even more:

"i really admire the greatness of islam, but what oscillates is my belief in the divinity of it. the quran itself is pretty basic, which i like. very concrete with things like killing and stealing and so on, and very vague with other things, probably purposely to allow lots of diverse interpretations...[some unimportant stuff in the middle]...i can say i'm muslim because it's the best religion, but again, to be brutally honest with myself, i'm really only a muslim because i was born into it. and now that i am, if i renounce it, i'm beheaded, if i convert out of it, i'm punishable by death, and if i decide not to follow it, i end up in the fires of hell. so i guess there's no fear emphasized at the surface, and free will is definitely emphasized, but it's a bit mafia like -- now that i'm in, i can't get out."

Oh there's so much more.  And I'm not kidding about taking notes.  This guy is a walking talking encyclopedia.  Maybe I'll throw in a MashaAllah, for politeness' sake :)  Anyway, comments?  The thing is, he is very convincing.  And he has requested a "non-Mullah" discourse, and I really think it would be a pity if this guy doesn't turn towards Islam.  There must be a logical way to at least get him to listen...obviously, I truly understand that his belief is not in my hands.

Thank you muchly.  Wasalaam.
12/06/03 at 19:59:56
theOriginal
Re: I know a smart person...
timbuktu
12/06/03 at 21:12:38
[slm] what i write below may not answer you directly. It is to show you the perils of being extra-brainy.

The shi`a are a very smart people. so are the Jews. & there is a lot of similarity between the two: Using the brain to circumvent  directives & conventional wisdom, & to create doubts.

How many believers in human Divinity will you find among the Sunnis, & how many among the Shia?

the Alawis, Druze, Ismailis, all come from shias. Even the Twelvers think that their Imams are Divine.

many sufis who believe in wahdatul-wujood also have a shia pedigree.

among the left-wing intellectuals of the sub-continent, & among the leaders of the free-enterprise riba-based systems, you will find a disproportionate number of the shi`a.

i do not know of the Arab world now, but i wouldn't be surprised if it is true there as well. We know that the Abbassid Caliphate was destroyed by the Mongols, on the urging of the Shia Vizier ibne Alqami, & the Shia (Ismaili) intellectual, Naseeruddin Toosi, who suggested a way for Halaku to overcome his superstitions of killing the Caliph.

now to your Q's:

is the Creator some lab technician or even a Nobel Laureatte scientist? Does it make sense to think of the Creator this way?

How does one explain the existence & the running of Universe to precise mathematical formulations?

For scientific arguments & evidence, see:

www.harunyahya.com

Then, consider the common contents of the holy books, & the theme of worldwide floods, of a Unitary Divine Being: the concept being common throughout the world. Of course, you could say that polytheism is also common, but Unitarianism explains polytheism as a distortion, while polytheism does not have an explanation for Unitary beliefs.

at the end, it is your heart that says there has to be a God, & Islam is the (only) religion of God.

just beware, in trying to convince him you do not get swayed by his braininess.
12/07/03 at 01:58:40
timbuktu
Re: I know a smart person...
AbdulJalil
12/06/03 at 21:54:08
Assalamu Alaikum


JustOne, can you clarify your question?? i am not really sure what your question is.


Re: I know a smart person...
AbdulJalil
12/06/03 at 22:42:41
Assalamu Alaikum


Well, here are links of possible interests.

This is about Maria


http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=3602





http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=2805



This is a position of  Islam about evolution. I recommend you let him read it, as he might think we reject absolutely everything of the theory  of evolution. And the theory of evolution is just that, a theory, many theories were abandoned before.


http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=4881


He can also read more books on evolution here:

scroll down to the “Refutation of Darwinism” part, there are whole books to download. They are very thorough and convincing.


http://www.harunyahya.com/m_books.php


He also has  very thorough articles there that refute darwinisn. Scroll again to the “Refutation of Darwinism” part here too:

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_articles.php






This is another(just easy  referenced website)

http://www.evolutiondeceit.com


Re: I know a smart person...
Maliha
12/06/03 at 22:54:24
[slm]
Sis Justone..hmmm..i am curious what aspect of him did you find so intelligent??? I mean to be able to rattle scientific facts devoid of their spiritual identity and core does not necessarily make you smart.

It is really sad, i was browsing the web checking out some Muslim blogs..and what distressed me was the growing number of Secularist Muslims. What does that mean? Allah knows. What's interesting though, is the tone of voice they all have in common. This intellectual randomness they sound off, so hollow, and yet in my experience they actually echo every single suburbanite young apathetic areligious kid i've ever come across.

There's nothing original about not believing in God. Try being a believer that actually practices and is driven to accomplish immeasurable feats for the sake of Allah only...now that's a rare occurrence aint it?

maybe i'm too old..or jaded. but hollow intellectual bluff does not impress me no more.

lemme try and answer some of the following.

[quote author=JustOne link=board=madrasa;num=1070758748;start=0#0 date=12/06/03 at 19:59:08] [slm]
 Is that for real?  How come it's never talked about if it is?  That would make Ibraheem the seventh child, and I've NEVER heard that before.  That sounds very strange to me.  And he makes his subtle point about Islam very casually with that one.
[/quote]

Maria, later Maryam, was a coptic slave girl presented to the Rasul [saw] as a gift. She *converted*, he married her and they had their son Ibraheem. Someone else can give you an exact reference...you never heard about Ibraheem? Any standard Seerah book has that information, and it was a fact being taught to us growing up.

[quote]

Another very thought-provoking statement:

"the purpose of life --

[/quote]

I am sorry JO has he really read the Quran? Really studied it to fathom why Allah created him? As Muslims we have no time to waste to sit and wonder about why Allah created us.

Allah created the whole universe to show us His signs in subtle ways..the perfection of how everything flawlessly bends to His Will, the dictates of time, the intricacies of the universe, all leads us to the same point of submission to a Being so much Higher and So Much more Majestic than we can begin to fathom.

If that wasn't enough, if His Mercy embedded in every aspect of creation is not enough to awe us into adoration, He sent ol.com
01/09/04 at 12:11:17
lala
xx
0
140.163.254.129
[slm]

Jannah, While I agree with you that we as humans have totally contributed to the majority of environmental calamities we see today..there is another side to it all.

Much of what we know would not be if forests were not destroyed, mountains werent sandblasted and so on. New York woudlnt be what it is today. Most of us woudlnt be living where we are living now..Farms wouldnt exist where they now do.

Why must we use all of a state for human consumption...and then leave say about 200 acres for animals to roam (nature preserves..etc)? Obviosly 200 acres is not enough roaming land for most wild creatures (rare cats, some birds et..et.)..However if we dont do use the land we run the risk of having cramped cities with too many people, spread of diseases even worse than it is now, and so on... Double edged sword this all is.

Funny how politicians cant see this as a major flaw in our nations urban planning... likewise in other cr every breathing moment reminding us...before that final last breath. When we can dictate no more, nor show any remorse.

our time is too limited to wonder...there's nothing to wonder about. It's all in your face staring at you. You just need to open your eyes, for the delicately spun spider web of deception to crumble. the matrix does not exist save in your mind.


[quote]
. NASA has come up with their working definition of life: 'Life is a self-sustained chemical system capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution.' nice and personal, huh? where's the love in that?"
[/quote]

anyone that quotes NASA for a working definition of life..is really sad. nuff said.


[quote]
"religion: sometimes the word of god, sometimes a collective societal delusion (look up the definition of that word -- it's interesting), and sometimes a huge defense mechanism. i really want to believe in something, and hopefully by the time i hit 40, i'll be * enough bricks during my mid-life crisis to be able to find god. but then again, using fear to instill morality in people. such a human thing to do. maybe that's the only way it works. we'll see."
[/quote]

religion as an institution has always been a subject of mockery. derision. human beings are far above the constructs of "delusion" per se. We are more intelligent than that. Just tell your friend in every one of us there exists this huge frightening void, the Quran describes it in Surah Nur as "billows upon billows of darkness", this endless stretch of horror that recoils within us, can only be illuminated by the Nur/Light/Guidance of Allah.

Only He, can pull someone out of the drowning dismal darkness of unbelief, doubt, uncertainty. Only He can shed those veils that arrest our eyes, that built up wax that defeans our ears, and the incredibly dark crust that builds up over our hearts and creates this yawning gulf between us and Him. He is the source of All Life. To be distant from Allah, is to be dead.

Sadly there are too many dead people walking nowadays. Just simply so unaware of the stench of their own corpses.

[quote]
"i really admire the greatness of islam, but what oscillates is my belief in the divinity of it. the quran itself is pretty basic, which i like. very concrete with things like killing and stealing and so on, and very vague with other things, probably purposely to allow lots of diverse interpretations...
[/quote]
Anyone who is not overawed by the Incredible depth of the Quran, can not be too smart. Tell him to read it one more time, and yet another time. There is something he is missing....he just has to look again, and probably ponder it a little more.

The Quran is "Guidance for those who have Taqwa".  Praying to Allah for this Divine Guidance might open his heart to the rays of illumination contained within those Glorious pages....

[quote]
i can say i'm muslim because it's the best religion, but again, to be brutally honest with myself, i'm really only a muslim because i was born into it. and now that i am, if i renounce it, i'm beheaded, if i convert out of it, i'm punishable by death, and if i decide not to follow it, i end up in the fires of hell. so i guess there's no fear emphasized at the surface, and free will is definitely emphasized, but it's a bit mafia like -- now that i'm in, i can't get out."
[/quote]
seriously this sounds like the whining of a teenage girl who is really ditzy and clueless...puhlease... We are given the will power to choose. Islam in essence means surrendering your fleeting will to Allah. Do we have a choice to be Muslim or not? Of course we do have a choice, in this very limited spectrum of life...but are we ready to deal with the consequences?

Besides, it's not a matter of punishment on earth or in the Hereafter...at an elementary stage maybe. Fear works to scare those simpletons of this world. But its so much more than that. How dare we, these little creations of no great consequence, think we can be self sustaining without Allah's help. We who desperately depend on Allah for the very next breath that we are going to take, think we can exist without Him?

Seriously think about it. Allah gives us parents who love and nurture us, to implant in us that profound gratitude we should feel towards those who take care of us. Yet He does so much more. Allah created so much beauty on earth to propel our hearts towards His Majesty, Yet He is greater than any and all of His creation and His Might is more thunderous than anything that makes us quake in fear, and His Mercy more encompassing than all our petty disobediences that keep us far away from His Divine Embrace...and the list goes on...it's all in the Quran.

Trembling words, and thundering ones that should melt the hardest of hearts..yet where are those that truly reflect? its heart breaking...

And one still has the audacity to complain about being born a Muslim? shouldn't this be the very reason we offer profuse gratitude to Allah for not being amongst those mislead, those who wander from valley to valley looking for that which will temporarily fill the aching misery of life without tasting the bliss of Knowing Allah?

Talk to any revert about their struggle of finding Islam, reflect upon Ibraheem (AS) story of trying to worship Allah in all the futile fleeting aspects of life until he came to the irrevocable, inevitable, absolute conclusion: "I love not which that sets" (rough paraphrase).

What else in this world of crumbling illusions is worth our absolute unquestioning love and devotion? We are all dying...the only Absolute, is Allah.

[quote]
Oh there's so much more.  And I'm not kidding about taking notes.  This guy is a walking talking encyclopedia.  Maybe I'll throw in a MashaAllah, for politeness' sake :)  Anyway, comments?  The thing is, he is very convincing. [/quote]

I am so amused by how much you are impressed by him. Why may i ask again? You are right in the last part, his guidance is not in your hands..you can point him back to the Quran for a Real read, and make duah for him.

Anyone who instills even an atom's worth of doubt in your heart, is not worth your time my dear. you may rationalize it and think well he is challenging in this "smart", "intellectual" way..but really, the only difference between his kind of kufr and any other is his play on words...the shaytaan can adorn anything and make it so pleasing to the nafs, so lilting to the ear...beware.

one of the basic corrupters of the heart, is bad company...i would just watch who i indulge my time with, who i pay attention to, and who i take my notes on. This life is too short to play with fire.

be careful..that's all.

your big sis,  :-)
[wlm]
12/07/03 at 07:36:34
Maliha
Re: I know a smart person...
Maliha
12/06/03 at 23:02:29
[slm]
about being 40 before figuring out his relationship with Allah...tell him to reflect upon death.
he may not live till morning...or have the health, seeming success, and youthfulness to be able to "figure" things out.

May Allah guide us all before the day when neither excuses nor repentance will avail us (Amin).
[wlm]
Re: I know a smart person...
muahmed
12/06/03 at 23:43:09
[slm]

[quote author=timbuktu link=board=madrasa;num=1070758748;start=0#1 date=12/06/03 at 21:12:38]
before i get hit by the sufi-lovers, many sufis who believe in wahdatul-wujood also have a shia pedigree.
[/quote]


But how can I expect that when fatwas stating Ibn Arabi was a kafir were upheld on this very newsgroup, while posts just mentioning the name of some sufi master or a couplet of sufi poetry keep getting removed. And lets not get to any post defending sufism or a sufi shakyh.

Overwhelmed by hopelessness one only protests when the heart bleeds.



[i]Insha jee utho ab kooch karo, iss shehar maiN jee koe lagaana kya
Vehshee koe sakooN say kya matlab, jogee ka nagar maiN thekaana kya

Iss dil kay dareeda daaman maiN, dekho toe sahee, socho toe sahee
Jiss jholee maiN saw chaid hou'ay uss jholee ka phelaana kya[/i]

12/11/03 at 01:46:30
bhaloo
Re: I know a smart person...
readagain
12/07/03 at 00:02:17
[slm]

Einstein was the smartest guy ever lived (right?) and they preserved his brain and did all kinds of experiments to think what was it that made him sooo smart..i maybe wrong here but i remember reading something like the smartest guy who ever lived, used only .07% of his brain which is a really really small number.. so imagine, what the human brain is capable of; (subhanAllah) and while imaging that, lets not forget that Allah (SWT) created taht brain..we as human beings often think we know it all, when infact we dont know $#!&.  its extremely haughty of us to even think that we can understand AND interpret AND question someone so ABOVE us, with our little intellect that is given to us by HIM, astaghfirullah.
i just wanted to say that cos i sensed this "oh u think u can convince me" attitude from that person, who btw, sis just one is soo not VERY smart, he is smart yes, not smart enough. and may ALlah guide him the right way.
continue on with ur discussion.
Re: I know a smart person...
se7en
12/07/03 at 03:17:51
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,

[quote]
Another very thought-provoking statement:

"the purpose of life -- i'd love to hear what you have to say on that. i wonder if it's anything like this: i've got bacteria having the human gene for insulin in a petri dish, in a culture with all the optimal nutrients and requirements they need. they're stored at 37 degrees, with 5% carbon dioxide -- exactly perfect for them. i need them to reproduce and make me loads of insulin that i can give to my diabetic patients. so i'm not very worried about which ones are nice to each other or do good deeds -- i just want the strongest ones to survive. and they can sit there and wonder forever about their purpose, why they're given these perfect conditions to live in, and that whoever did this for them must really love them and so on, but they can't comprehend anything past their unicellular potential. eventually, i scrap the entire dish, collect the insulin, and bleach all the bacteria. it would be so sad if that was our state. sure hope it isn't. NASA has come up with their working definition of life: 'Life is a self-sustained chemical system capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution.' nice and personal, huh? where's the love in that?" [/quote]

Life is more than the inhale-exhale rhythm of a person's breath, the pulsing beat of their heart and the chemical workings of their brain.  If life was simply meant to be the chemical and biological processes of our physical bodies, we would not have autonomy over our actions and thoughts, and we would function on the same instinctual, survivalist level of animals.  Yes, we have animal-like instinctual drives that move us towards sex, sleep, sustenance, and survival.. but within each of us is the ability to recognize beauty and truth and discern right from wrong.  We are each endowed with the ability to overcome our basic instincts and behave in a way that lines up with our perception of what is correct and true.  

Within each of us is the ability to recognize truth as truth.  A Muslim is one who recognizes truth in the revelation sent to Muhammad [saw], and seeks to live in concordance with that truth.  


[quote]How about this one:  

"religion: sometimes the word of god, sometimes a collective societal delusion (look up the definition of that word -- it's interesting), and sometimes a huge defense mechanism. i really want to believe in something, and hopefully by the time i hit 40, i'll be * enough bricks during my mid-life crisis to be able to find god. but then again, using fear to instill morality in people. such a human thing to do. maybe that's the only way it works. we'll see." [/quote]

I think the function and purpose of Islam has been beautifully described by a companion of the prophet Muhammad [saw] -- Islam has been sent to remove people from the narrowness of this life into the vastness of the hereafter, and to liberate people from servitude to men, into servitude to God alone.  

I certainly doubt that if Islam was truly imbibed by people and properly understood that it would be seen as a societal delusion.  How can it be, when at it's very core it calls people to individual accountability to God alone, and not to any man made authority or governance?  How can it be, when it calls people again and again to shun blind, rote, and ritual following of the religion of ones' ancestors, and instead urges people to turn a discerning eye to the reality of the world and think deeply about one's life and purpose?   Islam is not an opiate, but the exact opposite.

No offense, but "wanting to believe in something" is kind of a dumb reason to become Muslim.  If one simply subscribes to Islam because it is convenient for them and without any real deep seated belief, does it have any actual worth?  A Muslim is someone who says, I bear witness - I *see* - that there is truly nothing worthy of my worship, love, devotion, and submission but God Alone.  Not "I am aimlessly looking for some purpose and Islam seems to suit me at the present time."

Again, each of us has been endowed with an intellect and a spirit by which we can intelligently make decisions and recognize what is true and what is not.  We were not endowed with such faculties without reason.

[quote]
Yet even more:
"i really admire the greatness of islam, but what oscillates is my belief in the divinity of it. the quran itself is pretty basic, which i like. very concrete with things like killing and stealing and so on, and very vague with other things, probably purposely to allow lots of diverse interpretations...[some unimportant stuff in the middle]...i can say i'm muslim because it's the best religion, but again, to be brutally honest with myself, i'm really only a muslim because i was born into it. and now that i am, if i renounce it, i'm beheaded, if i convert out of it, i'm punishable by death, and if i decide not to follow it, i end up in the fires of hell. so i guess there's no fear emphasized at the surface, and free will is definitely emphasized, but it's a bit mafia like -- now that i'm in, i can't get out."  [/quote]

Where exactly does this person live, that he will be beheaded if he moves out of Islam?  If he lives in the United States or Canada, leaving Islam will not bring about any of the corporal punishments mentioned.  And if he doesn't believe in Islam, why is he worried about Islam's belief about the hell-fire?  Getting to the heart of the matter.. what exactly is he afraid of?  

I don't think Islam is mafia like, but I do think that Islam teaches that you are either one who accepts the truth, or one who does not.  You can be unsure of certain things associated with the religion, you can struggle with different aspects of it, you can sin, you can transgress bounds, and still be Muslim, but you either believe this message is from God, or you don't.

This paragraph indicates to me that this brother is in a state of half-hearted belief about Islam.  My recommendation to him is to really work to have a better understanding of this religion.  Ask questions, study, think deeply and be an introspective person.  Allah doesn't ask us to blindly follow something we are unsure about, but to constantly struggle in our efforts to learn more, see things from a different angle, to reflect, and once we acknowledge that something is right and true, that we seek to live our lives by it.  

May Allah grant us the ability to see truth as truth, and the strength to follow it; and grant us the ability to see falsehood as falsehood, and the strength to stay away from it.  May Allah open our hearts and our minds to the light of truth and guide us to the straight path, for truly, if He guides us, no one can lead us astray and if He allows us to be misled, truly no one can set us aright.  May Allah grant us a deep seated certainty in the truth of His deen and keep our hearts steadfast upon this certainty.

Allahu a'lam.

wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah.




PS - just a note - there are *many* scholars of tassawuf who condemn/ed wahdatal wujood, and there is *much* more to tassawuf than the few controversial issues usually associated with it.
12/07/03 at 05:20:19
se7en
Re: I know a smart person...
superFOB
12/07/03 at 03:20:21
[slm]

Wow, don't know where to begin. Mashallah, the sisters have done a fine job demolishing the arguments. Without doubt, there is neither anything new nor anything impressive in the quotations.

The dude in question ails from two main afflictions, imho. First, he is a shiah (no sect specified, but that's just a minor detail). Now being a minority in any group may leave one with a lot of knots in the brain, if you know what I mean. Second, he is an over-achiever, and it is getting to his head (a common and disturbingly pervasive observation). What they fail to realize is that their intellect is just another of the blessings from Allah (the comes without charge but do comes with a lot of responsibility), and He fully reserves the right to take it back without warning and without any reason. I am amazed at their impotent efforts to try to expound on religious dogmas (sometimes to justify their own non-observance and sometimes to placate their own guilty inner-self). Aray bhai, kabhi Allah kay attributes bhee samjhay hain, qasai kaheen ka.

Let it be known, we are not short on brains (sorry timbuktu). The problem with the ummah is that most of those who make it to the top of the pile end up with IBM (you can replace any mega corp here) and thats what their life revolves around, a veritable cocoon. Main culprit here is the western style education and the forced separation, compartmentalization, and demonizing of religion. Besides, our religious thinkers (the few fortunate ones) usually end up on the stricter band of the interpretive spectrum and you may not get a chance to converse 1-1 with them.

So where do you find these people, our thinkers. Well, you have to strive to find these beings and believe me you won't find them on the web. To give you a few examples, there is this desi fellow who sometimes gives jumuah khutbahs in sunnyvale (SFO bay area) who has a PhD from Caltech (where they boast the undisputed nerds' nerds) and has found the sufi way close to his heart. Then there is this pro psychiatrist, Stanford trained, freelancing for the correctional facilities of the San Francisco Bay area, hailing from the seraiki belt in Pakistan, and a thorough gentleman in all respects. Me and my friends had a fascinating conversation with him the other day and he recounted how most of his friends became atheists after reading through the works of the last century's 'luminary' thinkers, how and why the suicide rate among psychiatrists is the HIGHEST among ALL professions, how he manages to preserve his own sanity through the tablighi networks, how the years of western psychosomatic curative research parrot everything what has been said centuries earlier in Islamic texts, etc. So look around a wee bit harder and inshallah you'll find a person that has all the right ingredients and leave no bad after-taste.

FYI, as far as I know, Einstein was a not only jewish, he was a pakka zionist as well.  More recently, Don Knuth, a christian and the undisputed father of Computer Science, wrote his own treatise on the Bible! Check out his web pages on Stanford servers. Now these are some VERY brainy folks exhibiting some form of longing for the haqq but were/are not guided (the reasons behind the Divine scheme of things are beyond us, btw).

My advice to you is to STAY AWAY from this fellow. As you yourself mentioned, you are very impressed by his intellect, which at least to many on this board sounds not very rational. Thats the main reason our scholars frown upon unsupervised interaction among the youth of different sexes.

(may Allah forgive me for anything I have written contrary to what pleases Him)

- superFOB
12/07/03 at 03:31:27
superFOB
Re: I know a smart person...
jaihoon
12/07/03 at 08:10:29
[slm]  :)

" But no, by Your Lord, they can have no (real) faith until they make you (O Prophet) judge in all disputes between them and find in their souls no resistance against your decisions, but accept them with the fullest submission" [4:65]"

Re: I know a smart person...
timbuktu
12/07/03 at 08:12:03
[slm] sister JO, my previous post was not to discourage your thinking, but to point out some pitfalls. In fact, i hope that you or someone like you will apply yourselves by thinking along these lines for an end i have in mind.

what is that?

i want you to remember the times of the Mu`atezilla.

who were they, & what did they do?

in the Abbassid Caliphate, as Greek books was discovered & translated, a great intellectual activity was witnessed. The concepts and tools of Greeks were applied with vigor. The only problem: they were applied to theology. Hence a tussle developed between the Ulema & the Mu`atezilla, who considered themselves above the Ulema as they had the new knowledge. At first, the Mu`atezilla won, & the Ulema were pesecuted. Imam Ahmed ibne Hanbal's ordeal is probably well-known to all. Eventually, the Ulema learnt the tools of their adversaries & developed "ilm-ul-kalaam" to counter this fitnah. Thus Mu`atwzilla were routed.

A new Mu`atezilla is being revived with a vengeance.

The neo-Mu`atezilla insist that the Ulema have stifled creative thinking. & so the Quran & Sunnah are under attack, by secular people, by  those who have little knowledge & are anxious to apply the tools of modern social sciences to the Quran, & Hadith. In fact they translate the Quran to suit their ends, & reject Hadith which does not fit their way of thinking. These are times of intellectual turmoil, as you can gauge from the debates raging in the Western Muslim community, encouraged & joined by other vested interests.

sister JO, I have seen only a few of your posts, & they indicate a rare ability to think intelligently outside of the box. So, you in particular have the intellectual ability to seek, understand & help defeat those who would lead the Ummah astray, or would let it stagnate. I do not want to stifle your learning & thinking processes. I just want you to keep the aim in mind.

We muslims are going to need people with eemaan, ilm of the Quran & Sunnah, & the new ways of thinking, if we are to defeat the new Mu`atezilla.

====
to all the others, & particularly sisters, i am truly amazed at the way you have demolished the arguments of this super-brain. & brother superFOB, you analyzed the type very well. thanks.
====
12/07/03 at 11:18:02
timbuktu
Re: I know a smart person...
lucid9
12/07/03 at 10:00:22
[slm]

sis,

Its so obvious you're a girl -- since  its so obvious that you think the guy really isn't that clever, but your heart has ignored your brain and feels sorry for him and hopes for him to be guided. :) Most guys would just tell the guy that he has lots of "issues" and that suggest that check into a psychiatric ward to find out the real answers to his dilemmas!

(a) Ibrabhim is not unique.  like quasem, the prophet's first born, he died.  there is an interesting issue as to whether his mother was a fully vested wife.  I don't think there is total agreement among knowledgable people about this.   I think some say he was a wife like zainab or aisha.

(b) About the petri dish thing: recall the hadith

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "When God created living creatures, He wrote in the Book which is with Him in the highest heaven: 'My mercy shall prevail over My wrath.'" He also said: "God divided mercy into 100 parts, out of which he retained 99 parts with Him, and sent down one part to earth. From this one part emanates all the compassion that all of creation exercises toward one another, so much so that an animal lifts its hoof above its young lest it should get hurt.On Judgment Day, He will perfect and complete His mercy." (That is, he will use all 100 parts of mercy for His servants on that day.) Riyad us-Saleheen, 1:419-420.

That one part of the 100 parts of mercy in another hadith is likened to the mercy and love shown by a mother willing to sacrifice her own life by running into the middle huge fire to save her baby from harm.  So the  cold  petri dish idea of how Allah views the world cannot be accurate in any way.   And recall that Allah said "remember me and i will remember you, but don't disbelieve..."  That seems like a pretty proactive and positive approach to humanity!

(3) About finding God, particularly if you come from a muslim background, there is little that can be said.  Either you see in the creation of human life, the universe, etc the signs of design and God, or you don't.  It is very hard to change another's opinion on this kind of thing.  From my experience, people who are like this and who come from muslim families, are (1) not too concerned with these issues and simply babble stuff off the top of their head; (2)  their ideas about these issues are dictated more by their nafs then anything else; (3) they are very impressionable and swallow all the anti-christian athiestic propaganda hook line and sinker and assume it equally applies to Islam -- which of course it doesn't, because islam is very different.  

-butthead
12/07/03 at 10:08:52
lucid9
Re: I know a smart person...
AbdulJalil
12/07/03 at 11:04:59
Assalamu alaikum


[Qur’an 40: 57]

“Assuredly, the creation of the heavens and the earth is far greater  than the creation of men; but most of mankind know not”
Re: I know a smart person...
theOriginal
12/07/03 at 11:54:21
[slm]

First of all, thank you for all the replies.  Some of them made me laugh, especially sis Maliha's "Anyone who is not overawed by the Incredible depth of the Quran, can not be too smart."  And also the tiny references of the fact that this guy is a GUY, which is why I pity him.  I even debated not mentioning that he was a he, but I guess that would have made it more obvious.  And no, really, even if he was a she, I'd be equally impressed.  (I had to reread that myself)... And to clarify, I am impressed by his level of astute-ness.  There are very few people out there who ask questions, and then wait for someone to respond.  (Instead of asking another question immediately afterward to confuse the other party)

Anyway, some of your replies were mindblowing (really sis Maliha, do you talk like that in real life?  It's awesome), and my faith in Muslims was just reconfirmed, so thank you...  

(Onwards...)  I think the guy has given up, which I think is incredibly sad. I might have mentioned this in a previous post somewhere, that I have this frustrating ability to see everyone's viewpoint.  Two people might say two entirely different things, and yet I can understand them both, not agreeing with either.  Which is possibly why, this guy seems to have said all this stuff to ME, probably receiving bro hyper's response from everyone else.  And I asked my cousin, who said that they never discuss religion with each other.  

I obviously picked out the most controversial parts of his speech, but he does say half-normal things sometimes.  ("half" being the operative word.)  Now, having said all that, I realize I am not the best person to do this, simply because I am the opposite gender, so I did direct him to this conference that will be occurring in Toronto on Jan 2-4 (Anyone wants to go, can buy tix...it's going to be AMAZING..too bad I miss all these things)...he said he would think about it, but I'm sensing that he's reserved because it's a Sunni thing... (again something I can understand.)  I really don't know any brothers who might be able to speak with him, without shooting him down, and frankly, being defensive (by being offensive) about Islam, just doesn't work.

Also, this hasn't been a one-way conversation...so far it's been a fairly healthy discourse, if anything I learned why there isn't a naturally occurring food or drink that is blue.  I was seriously surprised at the Maria/Ibraheem thing.  Obviously, the shock has now worn off, and I'm just waiting for some logical theory to strike me.  But if they were married, then that would make Maria the 14th wife?  And I'm serious, I've never run across it before in my life.  How do you accept that controversy?  

So I guess that answers sis 7's question as well..he DOES live right here in Toronto, but I believe he was referring to the beheading for emphasis.  And Ameen to your duaa.  Allah only knows how we need those (especially to combat that hollow darkness which is billowing amongst all our souls...thanks sis Maliha, that was a scary! thought).

Now there has to be a reason why I so inconveniently met this person.  Maybe I do have something to learn, maybe it is a test of faith, or maybe it's a test of his faith...Allahu A'lam.  I really don't think I'll find out until it passes...

And perhaps yes, I should STAY AWAY...and really that shouldn't be too hard, in spite of the family connection in there.  But really, is that an operative decision?

Wasalaam.
Re: I know a smart person...
deenb4dunya
12/07/03 at 23:32:07
Assalamu Alaikum,

[quote] (really sis Maliha, do you talk like that in real life?  It's awesome),[/quote]

Yup, pretty much.   :) Be sure to bring a dictionary.  ;)

Wassalamu Alaikum,
Deen :-)
Re: I know a smart person...
Nomi
12/08/03 at 00:16:08
[slm]

But the sis forgot her password for the other board!!

About the original topic, fitna... Makes me worry about my own soul that how will i cope with the fitna of dajjal if he originates in my age as i'm so weak.

Someone around me has this theory that "everything being presented by someone is *wrong* unless and until proven right". Probly this theory can help dealing with such ppl.
12/08/03 at 01:45:57
Nomi
Re: I know a smart person...
sofia
12/08/03 at 08:54:02
[slm]

Sounds...complicated. Haven't read all the posts, but did read part of sis Nur-ul-Layl's which was excellent, masha'Allah (I'm sure the others were, too).

The only advice I have so far is, Islaam is the bigger picture, and everything else is just the details. The reason I state the obvious is because, Islaam has usool/principals on which it and the basic concept of aqeedah is based.

And sometimes, the "smooth talkers" (they're described in the Qur'aan and the Sunnah) use a different type of usool because of a slightly (or very) different aqeedah from which they base their own logic. One thing about it, it hardly ever remains consistent. Interesting as it may seem, it's really just fiction.

Allahu A'lim. Hope you both see your way through this and remain steadfast, aameen. I would agree that everyone is in need of da'wah (including me), but just be careful, insha'Allah...
Re: I know a smart person...
Maliha
12/08/03 at 10:05:46
[quote author=JustOne link=board=madrasa;num=1070758748;start=10#14 date=12/07/03 at 11:54:21] [slm]
But if they were married, then that would make Maria the 14th wife?  And I'm serious, I've never run across it before in my life.  How do you accept that controversy?  
[/quote]
[slm] Sis JO,

I am sorry but maybe I am misunderstanding the exciting part about this piece of news...what is it about Maria/Ibraheem issue that you are finding is a controversy again?

[quote]
And perhaps yes, I should STAY AWAY...and really that shouldn't be too hard, in spite of the family connection in there.  But really, is that an operative decision?
.[/quote]

I wouldn't have recommended you to stay away from him if it weren't from the obvious way  you were so impressed by him. I think the fact that it is a guy does add a different dynamic..the forces of shayateen are at full swing now. If it was a girl with the same rhetoric you wouldn't be *as* taken, becuz by nature our interactions have a different chemical composite. Wa Allahu A'alam.

I know some really grounded girls who were mislead by these smooth talkers...so I would be careful. Don't delude yourself by thinking you can offer him an understanding he doesn't already have. He has all the resources at his fingertips, he obviously has thought (half thought?) these concepts to come to these really illusionary conclusions...just understand your limitations and know that his guidance is *not* your prerogative. It is in Allah's hand. the best you can give him is duahs. *You* on the other hand, worry about strengthening your aqeedah, knowledge, imaan, because that's what you are going to be questioned for...your own Qalb's welfare.

take all this from a sis that's really concerned about ya :-)

PS: dude the extent of my "wordiness" is the point where my keyboard touches the screen...Don't believe Deen man, if you heard me in real life the only thing you may need to look up is "do you know what i'm saying?" ::) cuz i repeat that all the time and am not a fraction as wordy (or is it nerdy?) as I am in the virtual world ::)

Re: I know a smart person...
Tesseract
12/08/03 at 10:06:07
 [wlm]

       [quote]About the original topic, fitna... Makes me worry about my own soul that how will i cope with the fitna of dajjal if he originates in my age as i'm so weak. [/quote]

           Abud-Darda' (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: "Whoever commits to memory the first ten Ayat of the Surat Al-Kahf, will be protected from (the trial of) Ad-Dajjal (Antichrist).''
[Muslim].

     In another narration, the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: "(Whoever commits to memory) the last ten Ayat of Surat Al-Kahf, he will be protected from (the trial of) Ad-Dajjal (Antichrist).''

Commentary:  Ad-Dajjal will appear sometime before Yaum-ul-Qiyamah. Allah, the Almighty will give him some supernatural powers the manifestation of which will shake the faith of many people. For this reason, this will be a serious trial. All Prophets warned their people against him. Our Prophet (PBUH) also warned us against him and ordered us to guard ourselves from it and strictly advised us to seek Refuge of Allah against it. This Hadith tells us the way to save ourselves from Ad-Dajjal. The recitation of the first or the last ten Ayat of Surat Al-Kahf, in the morning and evening, is very useful for this purpose. Sheikh Al-Albani has, however, regarded the last ten Ayat probably and the first ten Ayat surely effective against this mischief.

Wassalam.

 

Re: I know a smart person...
UmmWafi
12/10/03 at 23:56:02
[slm]

This is an amazing thread.  Aside from responses to the original questions, you have potshots taken at wahdatul wujood and shi'as and also a brief thesis on the big bad Mu'tazilah.  Wow....

Uhh...since I ain't so smart, guess my only response to JO's original post is..

Well, if our sole purpose in life is to be useful and beneficial and nothing else, then I wouldn't have any problem being likened to amoebas or bacterias in producing insulin.  However, one wonders whether producing insulin is all there is to life ?

Wassalam
Re: I know a smart person...
bhaloo
12/11/03 at 01:53:14
[slm]

I finally had a chance to read this entirely and this is what I have to say, mashallah, really good job guys.  This is probably one of the best threads, it has a lot of great stuff.   Maliha's posts were really good, I really enjoyed them.  And this bit of humor was too much:

[quote]
seriously this sounds like the whining of a teenage girl who is really ditzy and clueless...puhlease...
[/quote]
Re: I know a smart person...
timbuktu
12/11/03 at 08:34:16
[slm] [quote author=UmmWafi link=board=madrasa;num=1070758748;start=20#20 date=12/10/03 at 23:56:02] This is an amazing thread.  Aside from responses to the original questions, you have potshots taken at wahdatul wujood and shi'as and also a brief thesis on the big bad Mu'tazilah.  Wow.... [/quote]

is that an admonition? i am a little frightened.

[quote]Uhh...since I ain't so smart, guess my only response to JO's original post is..

Well, if our sole purpose in life is to be useful and beneficial and nothing else, then I wouldn't have any problem being likened to amoebas or bacterias in producing insulin.  However, one wonders whether producing insulin is all there is to life ? Wassalam [/quote]

this remark shows sis UmmWafi is one of the smartest.
12/11/03 at 21:30:07
timbuktu
Re: I know a smart person...
UmmWafi
12/11/03 at 10:31:06
[quote author=timbuktu link=board=madrasa;num=1070758748;start=20#22 date=12/11/03 at 08:34:16]

is that an adminition? i am a little frightened. [/quote]

An admonition ? Indeed I dare not for my ignorance exempt me from admonishing others.

[quote]
this remark shows sis UmmWafi is one of the smartest.[/quote]

Astarghfirullah...as my words and actions often glaringly prove, this statement is inaccurate.  In every sense of the word.

Wassalam
Re: I know a smart person...
theOriginal
12/11/03 at 19:04:03
[slm]

Jazak Allah Khair for all the replies....

Now that the shock has worn off, and I have had a few days to confer with some of the knowledgeable people in my life...let's readress the initial issue:

[quote]Maria, later Maryam, was a coptic slave girl presented to the Rasul  as a gift. She *converted*, he married her and they had their son Ibraheem. Someone else can give you an exact reference...you never heard about Ibraheem? Any standard Seerah book has that information, and it was a fact being taught to us growing up.[/quote]

and

[quote]I am sorry but maybe I am misunderstanding the exciting part about this piece of news...what is it about Maria/Ibraheem issue that you are finding is a controversy again?[/quote]

Okay, so let's talk about it...let's forget my ignorance on this matter for a brief fleeting moment, because I really have not heard about it until this dude mentioned it me...

But from what I've read and discussed with some of my more knowledgeable friends in the past few days: there is contention as to whether Maria was married to the Prophet (saw) at all....

So, she was a slave, and they had a child, who died at the age of 2-ish?  (If that's not correct, please correct me, even though it is peripheral to this discussion)

First of all, I think there is something fundamentally immoral to the whole slavery issue, but I realize that it might be a product of my Western upbringing...

But how can you "possess" a person?  People do not belong to other people, they belong to Allah, only.  You can only be an "abd" to Allah...and not to a person...

And yes, I realize, when taken with the context of the Arabian times, 1400 yrs ago, slavery was a common practice back then, and it is only recently that it has been regarded as a universally immoral concept.  And Islam came, and emphasized the rewards of freeing slaves, etc etc...

Islam came to CORRECT all IMMORAL practices, that is why women have been given such huge rights in Islam, something which was unheard of at the time.  So then why was slavery not explicitly abolished?  And even if it could not have been explicitly abolished (because people had slaves, and couldn't free them overnight), why then did the Prophet (saw) himself not free her...I mean, the Prophet's level is different than the ordinary man in Arabia at the time..

Okay forget that even...but for example the practice of burying female children at infancy.  That is an immoral concept.  And it wasn't thought of as being immoral at the time...but Islam, in very certain terms, said that this practice was haraam.

Unless you argue that slavery is a moral concept (which I will probably never be able to wrap my mind around), I don't know how you canNOT think of this as a controversy.

I also understand that there are different punishments for slaves, because they are slaves...but ...I mean come on!  Try explaining this to a non-muslim.  Okay you know what?  Try explaining this to me as if I'm a non-muslim...I just don't get it.

I'll add more...judging from any replies.

Wasalaam

(I'm not attacking the religion...I sincerely want to know)

Re: I know a smart person...
Maliha
12/11/03 at 21:07:23
[slm]
awww..J/O don't get all worked up...it aint all that bad:) Okay Inshaallah lets tackle one topic at a time:

On Maria's status/Marriage:
We have to understand some basic concepts determining the Rasul [saw]'s actions. The first and most important of which he doesn't do anything of his own desires, every action he took (and especially big decisions like marriage) were determined by a greater purpose to show an example, to guide others, for political strategies, to elevate the social statuses etc.


The Rasul  [saw] married across social statuses and even married women who wouldn't be otherwise considered eligible or attractive prospects in order to set a new trend and exhibit his Mercy and inevitably the social inclusion of all who would be otherwise marginally cornered by society. So he married widowed, poor women, older women, younger women etc. all for a purpose.


Mariyah, was *not* presented as a slave but a servant, by the King of Egypt whose name was Muqawqis. Although he did not become Muslim himself, he acknowledged the Rasul's  [saw] mission and as a token of his respect he sent him two servants Mariyah and her sister (the sister Sirin was married by Hassan bin Thabit Al Ansari (RA) ).  (The sealed Nectar: page 417).


In this particular biography, the author remained silent on whether he married her or not. In others I have come across specific statements saying he did marry her. The point is her status *was* raised from being a servant to the distinguished "Mother of Believers". He bought her a pretty house with a garden, and she was well liked by the Rasul  [saw] other wives. She had the added distinction of bearing him a child, she was the only one besides Khadija (RA) who did so. He spent a lot of time with her and Ibraheem till he died. Either way she only lived with him I think two or three years before he died. She died a couple of years later and was buried at Jannatul Baqi (and her funeral prayer was lead by the likes of Umar (RA) ).


Is there any wisdom to be gleaned from this marriage? Look at the social context where it was customary to present a woman as a "gift" to a man and what the Rasul  [saw] did to change that situation. Instead of turning her back and rejecting her (she would have probably been a gift to another guy at that point). He took her in, married her (I don't see why he wouldn't) and accorded her the greatest distinction of being part of his household, and mother of his child. In this gesture, he showed all of those around him: his humbleness, Mercy, and it was yet another step of rectifying the social context.


On The Wisdom of Gradual Revelation:
There is a saying by Aisha (RA) that if the first Quranic injunction was stop drinking or fornicating then no one would have become Muslim. There is definite wisdom and to any student of history, the notion of overnight Revolution is a dream that is impossible to attain in our constructed realities of fixed paradigms and deep rooted social customs and norms.

Allah's Wisdom can never be questioned, we can only seek to understand it. For our own limited spectrums of reality can not begin to encompass Him. So what happened in 7 Century Arabia, that completely transformed a Jahili society to become the foundation of the light that would illuminate the whole world?

We can only begin to understand the amazing success of the Rasul  [saw] and the subsequent flourishing of Islam within this notion of gradual revelation. The Wisdom within the Quran is rooted in Tarbiyya, that is education and training of those who want/need guidance and reform.

In the beginning Makki surahs the focus was on building The Tawheedic perspective, the inculcation of the Love of Allah in the thirsty deserts of their souls. The progression went from preparing these fertile grounds to then receive the showers of Mercy that continued to guide the believers and build them into irrevocable Models of success and liberation.

The concept of slavery was abolished in a very systemic and relatively short period of time unlike its Western counterpart. To see the amazing success of the Islamic injunctions that neither required blood to be spilled nor wars to be fought against this intricate evil that was rooted in the very lifestyle, economics, and social stratosphere of their society the following brief reading will really help you Inshaallah:

http://saif_w.tripod.com/questions/slavery/islam_slavery_mawdudi.htm

( a simple google search will yield many results..be careful of some of the sources though..you know the online web of deceit ::) )

Allah in His All Encompassing Wisdom introduced laws that dug out the very roots of this evil and over time it was completely eradicated, and once abolished the full rights of the Human being and dignity were accorded without any qualms (To date African Americans are still fighting for full equity and Justice in the West).

Why Lesser punishment was accorded to slaves?
As we know the institution of slavery is harsh and cruelty tends to be the order of the day. Islam takes a completely different view point on the issue of punishment and where the society would actually punish the slave *more* for any acts of impunity, Islam provides a paradigm shift that not only calls for Mercy to be accorded to the slaves (which is a novel concept then) but actually treats them less harshly in the context of civil disobedience.

Another part of this wisdom lies in the fact that the slave is actually given the benefit of the doubt, as in most cases, sexual relations tend to be forced unto the slave rather than it be an equitable relationship between the offenders.

Many ex slaves were granted high statuses in the Islamic Society and the freeing of slaves was considered one of the most meritous acts. So it was only a matter of time, that slavery was going to dissappear based on the systematic and gradual manner human beings were prepared to accept the Laws of Allah, which accorded each historically marginalized subject be it woman, child, slave, orphan, elderly...a dignified and exalted positions as fully endowed humans participating actively in all spectrums of society.

I hope this helped somewhat Inshaallah.

your sis in struggle :-)
[wlm]

12/12/03 at 07:07:16
Maliha
Re: I know a smart person...
timbuktu
12/11/03 at 21:34:11
[slm] sister: your questioning is justified, it has puzzled me too from the beginning. but before we go on, how was your exam?

I had this reply ready, but had to disconnect on orders from my daughter, who wanted the phone line, & now i see that sis Nur_al_Layl has given a very exhaustive response. i will post mine just the same.

you say that you understand that this was in context of Arabia 1400 years ago, & then you say since burying of female infants was banned, this should have been, too.

on the surface, yes. first, talking secular only: why did slavery come into existence in the first place?

two reasons stand out:
1). the economy needed cheap labor.
2). mixing of genes for a diversified species (survival chances increase)

a third can be added: the tribe needed to defend itself, so the slaves fought on the side of the master. more manpower, more security or offensive capabilities.

Slavery became abhorrent to the Europeans & the  Americans only when their economies started to run on machines, & not on slaves. The american civil war was between two economies: the Industrial North, & the slavery based South.

now some religion:

We see mention of slaves in the Old & New Testaments as well.

why did Islam not abolish slavery together with female infanticide?

Let me ask you to think about another question which is asked today: the issue of upto four wives. If I remember correctly, you had defended the provision. why should it be acceptible to have upto 4 wives today, in this liberated, equal citizen world of North America in particular & the West in general.

Why is modern thinking & practice in conflict with such provisions of Islam?

The reason is that our Western(-ised) thinking assumes that we are on an evolutionary path, which is taking us to a higher plane both materially & spiritually. (human rights, right?). Is that really true?

My study of history tells me that this is one phase, it will pass. What will take its place, i do not know, but suppose humanity is beamed back to the dark ages. suppose there is a bitter conflict in which many men are dead or become invalid, what will happen to the survivors?

the enmity could be such that the victor may want to annihilate the vanquished.

you have seen that despite its human rights record & the advancements in social sciences, when it came to the bombing on Afghanistan, the British & the Americans bombed the prisoners in Pul-e-lCharkhi like savages. The US created a new concept of "illegal combatants" to deny its prisoners basic rights.

it shows that no matter what your advancements, an instinct remains that can pull mankind away from however "enlightend" it has become.

Islam allows for all eventualities.

Since the economy was in need of slave labor, Islam did not outright abolish slavery. Slaves were given rights, but their freedom was encouraged. I still think a time may come again due to mankind's folly when slavery would not look so abhorrent as it does now. just like when there is a larger number of females in a society than males, polygamy may become a necessity.

just my 2 cents worth: not a very eloquent one, i am afraid.
12/12/03 at 18:56:55
timbuktu
Re: I know a smart person...
siddiqui
12/11/03 at 21:42:36
[slm]
I just want to add to the above about the point of context, slavery was an issue then and till much later worldwide.
Islam 1423 years ago started dismantling this process yes in a gradual manner but in a definite way while the world still indulged in it for at least another 1200 years.

Slavery was very much a part of this society till very recently, was enforced by using biblical scriptures and today still exists in forms of racial disparity and discrimination ( there is a ton of literature to support this).Though I agree with you that formal slavery has now been abolished.

So is criticizing (I am not saying you are doing it) the principles and methods of yore (infact the start of the process of abolishment) with the cultural contexts of today valid?

I would like to compare this to, us in these days of supersonic travel (boy I wish I could have traveled on the Concorde ;)) criticizing how slow and how backward travel was, in the period when the fastest mode of commute were the first trains, running on steam engines. The facts being t quiet the opposite, steam engines were a new revolution and ‘cutting edge’ technology those days  which changed the out look of the world and developing them over a period of TIME has resulted in supersonic travel today.
[wlm]
12/11/03 at 21:44:33
siddiqui
Re: I know a smart person...
Nomi
12/12/03 at 01:05:29
[slm]

Whats our proof that the Prophet [saw] wed Maryam [ra] ?
Ans: Some logical reasoning and ofcourse "History"!

Whats his proof that He [saw] dint wed her?
Ans: "History".

There is no way of "making" someone understand if he is being opinionated. Take the example of other Islamic practices, will everyone we know (non-Muslim) admit that they are true no matter how much proof we provide them? No, coz some hearts get stamped by Allah awj due to their ego and narrowminds.

Same is the case with so called moderate Muslims (who probly believe in 2.5 prayers per day!!). They'll remain opinionated due to their stamped hearts, person under discussion seams one example (how about asking him join here and talk?.... Nah!). As far as i know we are asked to stop arguing with such class as this discussion will make them do more kuf'r.
12/12/03 at 01:09:15
Nomi
Re: I know a smart person...
theOriginal
12/13/03 at 11:24:18
[slm]

Bro Nomi...I'm not arguing with anyone...I'm just trying to understand the concept myself.  I have to feel comfortable with it, in order to be convinced enough for any future discussions with ANYONE on this topic.

Anyway, thank you for alllllll the replies.  I mulled over them, and although all that historical stuff makes sense, we live in a post-Church era, where the Christian religion is not the lithmus test for anything anymore, including Islam.  That is, unless you are discussing religion with a Christian, in which case, it might hold.  

"Islam vs. Christianity" headings are not conducive for discussion with people who are not Christian (or not Muslim).  Because that aspect is simply not understood, since Christianity doesn't stand as an indication of "truth" for people who are not Christian...

woooahhh okay I stopped making sense.

Anyway thank you very much.  I won't be here for a while, so may Allah keep all of you safe, healthy and happy.

Wasalaam.  (bro timbuktu, inshaAllah the exams went okay)
Re: I know a smart person...
faisalsb
12/13/03 at 14:51:35
[slm]

Well it's really interesting thread because I got answer of my question what I had in my mind for long time. I had been wondering what happened with sister Maliha (Mystic) since I didn't see her on the board for long time. Today I have come to know through this thread that she has changed her screen name.

I don't know why people like to keep on changing their identity???
Re: I know a smart person...
Maliha
12/14/03 at 11:08:29
[slm]
Sis J/O, why don't you take some time out and study Islam for like a year or so...seriously...you will find the intellectual side of it really exciting and invigorating :-[

I think  anyone who seeks more depth in the Religion, *has* to take the time to really understand it, besides reading a book here and there...or browsing a site here and there...it's soo much to learn, and its totally worth every minute of the endeavor Inshaallah:)

Also, as far as the issue of slavery its not about xtian vs. Muslim, but really about Allah's Wisdom in enacting those Laws in the way He did..did it work? Yes.
Can we seek to understand why? Yes.
Can we question it? No.
The problem is we can't apply our limited brain/knowledge capacity to encompass the Unfathomable...

May Allah help and guide us all:)

[quote author=Faisal Siddique link=board=madrasa;num=1070758748;start=30#30 date=12/13/03 at 14:51:35] [slm]
I don't know why people like to keep on changing their identity???[/quote]

To keep the FBI's job exciting 8)

[wlm]
Re: I know a smart person...
UmmWafi
12/14/03 at 13:14:27
[slm]

It is interesting yet scary to note how the biggest challenges to our iman actually come in small packages.  How we are tested by the smallest things and not the biggest ones.  

As a Muslim, I personally find that one of the most disturbing and devastating challenge to my faith is doubt.  Indeed, the whisperings of Shaitaan and Iblis to instil doubt where there was once certainty is the most insiduous yet lethal of their arsenal against believing Muslims.  What is worse is the fact that these whisperings most often than not come when we are trying to increase our knowledge of Islaam.

May Allah SWT Protect us from the evil whisperings of Shaitaan and Iblis and may He Strengthen our iman, Amin.

Wassalam.
Re: I know a smart person...
William
12/18/03 at 16:04:32
Bismillah
[slm]
jazakum allah Khairun for all the posts.  Very informative.  I do not have much to add.  I do know that the coptic slave girl maria became UmmWalid when she became pregnant.  This means that she could not be sold/traded and had rights established to her to the level of a free person (Astaghfirullah if I am wrong which is not rare).  Also the child, Ibrahim, was born free, not a slave, with all the rights of inheritance.

As a side note, I noticed that you said, "I learned why there isn't a naturally occurring food or drink that is blue."  What about the aptly named blueberries?  I hate to be nit picky (I guess that is not true otherwise I would remain silent) but if he knows so much and so educated would he not know of this also.  Once again, Astaghfirullah if I am wrong.  I just wanted to point this out because we are all faulty and make mistakes.  So if he can make this minor insignificant mistake, why not in matters pertaining to Muhammad warned us of over indulging in?  Allah alone is perfect.
Also, Why must we have everything explained to us as an ummah now?  The Companions would literally hear and obey without question.  Alcohol was forbidden so they stopped drinking.  Now we know that it kills brain cells, along with other types of cells.  (The theory that wine prevents heart disease has yet to be proven whether it is the alcohol or the grapes that have the benefitial nutrients.)  Fornication is forbidden and now we know one of the major disease transmission methods is sexual relations.  Look how prevelant STDs are in sexually indulgent societies.
I guess my point is that in Islam everyone wants to question the deen now without the knowledgable background.  When a doctor prescribes a medicine, I do not ask how the chemicals affect my cells?  How did he arrive at that diagnosis?  Where do the pills get manufactured?  Why that medicine over others?  Where did he get his degree?  Is he having a bad day (it could affect the diagnosis)?  Etc...?  These questions can be relevant and we may ask some.  But we do not keep asking until we arrive at an answer that we do not like.  Yet in Islam we keep doing this.  If we really have so many questions then is it not incumbent upon us to go learn?  Is it not our fault that we are so ignorant?  Should we not do something to remedy this?  This is our religion, our salvation for the Love of Allah.  To claim that one does not have enough time is not sufficient.  One has enough time to mentally contemplate the deen.  If comtemplation time and research time was split evenly then maybe the ummah's ignorance would not be so rampant.
Also to claim that coming to a message board is learning seems like a cop out unless there are qualified scholars who one knows and trusts there.  I do not get medical advise from my librarian.  I do not ask a baker to fix my car.
I apologize if anyone feels singled out.  Please know that I include myself in my discourse.  I am writing more for myself than anyone else.  May Allah Forgive me for all my wrong doings and any divisions that I may have made.  Jazakum Allah


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