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Would you change your name?
bhaloo
12/08/03 at 09:26:59
[slm] I remember when I was looking for a job back in the early part of 2001, I put my resume out on the internet, I got 42 calls the next day, I was so in demand. A few months after 9/11 I put it out, I had only 1 call the first week.  Did things change so fast? ???  I talked with some other Muslims that had been struggling to find a job, and how they had a total lack of responses.  They told me later they changed their names on their resume, recicruclated their resumes and had a lot of offers.   Would do you guys think of this, given the amount of ignorance and hatred there is in the west about Islam, do you think this is ok to do?  What are your thoughts?

Re: Would you change your name?
Tesseract
12/08/03 at 10:15:09
Assalamu 'alaikum,            [quote] I talked with some other Muslims that had been struggling to find a job, and how they had a total lack of responses.  They told me later they changed their names on their resume, recicruclated their resumes and had a lot of offers.[/quote]                U mean they changed it from a Muslim name to Non-Muslim name ??? Even if someone changed it from one Muslim name to another, that would be lying and cheating. Allahu A'lam. Did u have any scholar's opinion on this if this is allowed? Wassalam.

Re: Would you change your name?
lucid9
12/08/03 at 10:23:40
[slm] like what would you change it to...Bill?   In london lots of folks used alternate names Ibrahim = Abraham Sulayman = Sal Zakir    =  Jack ....things like that....i am not a fan of giving kids of very recognizably muslim names...maybe because I was so teased when I was kid.....so like i would not ancorage moms and dads to name their kids mohammad, hussain, mustafa, mahmud, or fatima, if they expect their kids to live in the west.  its all well and good for you parents to be appalled by my lack of backbone in this regard --- but probably none of you have been treated like s**t for a large fraction of your childhood because of your name....
12/08/03 at 10:24:31
lucid9

Re: Would you change your name?
Fozia
12/08/03 at 10:26:50
[slm] We carried out a sociology experiment using this as a model, I was ickle at the time about 16, and the girl with the obvious english name Christina got loads of interviews, at one place when both Chrissie and Usra got interviews, the interviewer on calling for Chrissie asked her 'Are you sure?' she thought the 'white' looking girl was Chrissie...!!! I personally haven't ever changed my name to secure jobs/interviews, but alhumdulillah I've never been desperate, I always go by the 'They lose out if they don't hire me' attitude... BTW Br. Hyper I'm so sorry you had a rough time because of your name... I'm still naming my children (plural in case I have more inshallah) by the names of the family members of our beloved prophet [saw]. Because I love the names, their meanings, and inshallah naming them as such will have a positive effect on their character. Wassalaam
12/08/03 at 10:30:27
Fozia

Re: Would you change your name?
AyeshaZ
12/08/03 at 11:16:17
[wlm] I love my name toooooooooooo much  [] !!!! But some folks in our community did change their names, however, Did they get  jobs? hmm most of them still didn't! So ultimately, its your rizq and naseeb right.. I really think that taking one's hijab off for interview or changing names just doesn't do it!! wallahu alam

Re: Would you change your name?
muslimah853
12/08/03 at 11:50:12
[slm] Every person's circumstance is different, so I wouldn't presume to tell another what to do. My personal opinion, and this is just that, it's my personal opinion, is that we shouldn't do things like that.  Why?  Because the fact of the matter is assimilating isn't going to make things better for us or our posterity down the road.  So many groups have gone through the same nonsense, and my feeling is that bigoted people have to come out of their comfort zone, as simple as that. I'm also African American, and have lived with some level of discrimination all of my life...there are even recent studies that have looked at this phenomenon among African Americans as well...resumes with names that seem "black" getting less of a look than others.  The fact of the matter is that even if I assimilate so that no one can tell I'm outwardly Muslim, I can't remove my ethnicity...nor should I.  My grandparents, great grandparents etc and many other people who preceeded me fought and died to get rid of this type of nonsense, so I must do my part.  I am Muslim, I am NOT going anywhere insha'allah, so if my presence makes bigots uncomfortable then tough.  My grandmother, who looks white, had the experience of being hired, working on a job, and then being fired because my mother (who does not look white) had to visit her on her job and they discovered that my grandmother wasn't white after all.  I have relatives who remember the Klan very vividly, who remember not being able to look a white person in the eye for fear of being lynched, who remember having to bring along jars on roadtrips to use the bathroom in because using "Whites only" restrooms was not an option *and* because stopping on the road could cost you your life.  My mother remembers being scolded about talking too loudly in the presence of white people for fear that she could end up swinging from a tree.   When is this nonsense going to stop?  Bigotry is a fact of life, at least it certainly has always been a fact of my life in this country, and at this point in my existence, I'm need to be true to myself and my Lord.  Everyone else is secondary.  We don't need to be running.  Do what you can to provide for yourself and family, but keep your dignity, trust in Allah.  And hey, as Muslims, let's *make* opportunities for ourselves...it's a long term goal, yes, but we have to start somewhere. Things aren't all better for African Americans, but some progress has been made over the years, and it was only made when people started to stand up and resist the ignorance.

Re: Would you change your name?
amatullah
12/08/03 at 13:52:06
I don't see the big deal, if changing a few letters or putting in bracets a nickname that is easy for them to say will get you to be a better provider for your family why not? when you get the job insha'Allah tell them you prefer your original name. I don't see it as you are cheating them, but in one way you are giving them a chance not to be embaressed because half of the people here can't pronounce others names in a good way and so maybe it is easier just to ignore the name then put yourself at situation where you seem less in control when you are the employer/interviewer. My friend a substitute teacher she had to do that and when she called the schools she told them a nick name and then she said It is listed under the other name though, so a principal said to her that he saw it but was too hesitant to try it so he called the next person on the list. And also, you are cancelling some hurdles in your way of halal work. It is better to do that than leave yourself in a situation that has no good options and leave the door for shaitan to come in. Poverty is not easy or fun, if changing the name helps to temporarily get considered for a job, then do it. This is a racist society as a fact. And you have to always think of new ways to lessen that effect in your life as long as it is not haram.
12/08/03 at 13:55:25
amatullah

Re: Would you change your name?
faisalsb
12/08/03 at 13:53:05
[slm] Well the topic reminds me dark history of subcontinent when people used to change their Islamic names to hindu ones. Particularly in film industry and Daleep Kumar is the biggest example of such names. His actual name is Yousaf Khan but very few people know that. I think IDENTITY is one of the things what all of us work for all of our lives. I don't know how much those acheivements would worth what we get on cost of our identity. I think it would be just an act of slavery which is based on desire to make more MONEY.
12/08/03 at 14:02:06
faisalsb

Re: Would you change your name?
amatullah
12/08/03 at 14:07:55
I think it is hard to be idealist when you are hungry.  When you get the job you tell them how to pronounce it and show them what being a Muslim is. At least you are increasing the chance of that happening. If you don't even get a foot in the door, they may never see how Muslims work.

Re: Would you change your name?
Maliha
12/08/03 at 15:10:58
[slm] Subhana Allah...this thread is really amazing...and Arshad bhai you are thinking of changing your name??? hmmm..what about Rishard ;) anywho, the concept is not whether to change your name or not..or feeding your family or not. Starting from the very basic element is to why we were created period, what's my purpose in this life, and my obligation to Allah and humanity at large. If my purpose is to worship Allah, and I am a delegate for His Cause, then my name, my identity, my actions even something as mundane as dress would be a representative of that which is so much larger than me. We are the embassadors of Islam and our role in this society is so much bigger than being good employees. Besides isn't Rizq *guaranteed* by Allah? Did Allah anywhere in the Quran, allude to the fact that we can change ourselves for the purposes of earning a living? Isn't He the Razzaq??! And where does it stop...I mean can I not wear my hijaab because I obviously wouldn't get a good job with it on? How about men shaving their beards? Do we really need to go to the masjid, because of the danger of associations? how about hanging out with Muslims? the list never ends... There is an interesting and scary trend in the west and that is the process of completely obliterating the face of Islam anywhere in it's vicinity. Look at the laws being passed, the fear being instilled in people's hearts, the malicious propaganda. Our beloved Imam made an interesting allegory between what is happening today and what happened during Prophet Salih's time (AS). He gave his people an Ayah from Allah, the camel...but his people weren't bent on destroying not just the camel per se, but the Sign of Allah sent to them. The signs of Allah around us are being systematically challenged, blasphemy is the new fad of the day, nothing we can touch is meant to be sacred anymore. Our presence as Muslims in the West challenges all that the securalist liberalist ideally wants to envision...a land where the concept of Allah, Tawheed, and Holy-ness, is completely eradicated. Where people are nothing but walking voids of consumerist, greedy, individualistic, etc [fill in every element of being in a "free" society].  Hence on the masses' level ignorance is heightened by fear, and people indiscriminately attack masajid, and people who they think are Muslim. On the economic level, Muslims are targetted and not offered the kinds of jobs they hope for, on the political dimensions attacks, arrests and spilling muslim blood is the new order of the day... So we are under attack...a basic fact that we all know of. But what does that mean for us today? As Muslims are we still required to stand for justice? Are we still required to fight on all levels with our Identities, Selves, money, Fee Sabillillah?! Are we still required to enjoin good and forbid evil? Are we still required to educate the Masses on who we truly are and what this society is trying to blind them from? or are we to dissappear into the mirage of "assimilation" by changing our names? and who knows what else? For those who are afraid of the taunts of being named a Muslim name...think of the taunts that the Prophets went through and the derision that every believing community had to live with... So we might get a job with our new names..but do you really want to work for a firm that wouldn't have hired you because you are Muslim? would you be free to pray and do your acts of worship? How much of yourself are you willing to compromise for the sake of a job? The shaytaan lures us with poverty, while Allah promises us over and over again He asks us not for Rizq because He is the only Razzaq. You do your job on being a good Muslim, on trying to find Halal means (without compromising your dignity) and let Allah do the rest. If you are tested by means of lesser provisions, take it as a test..and remember that there are other Muslims who are literally eating grass because they have nothing to eat. Allah tests those He loves the most and those those with least faith are tested the least. Who does Allah Love? The ones who have most Taqwa (fear of Allah only), the ones that Persevere under all circumstances, the ones who have Tawakkul (Reliance on Allah alone), the ones who are Muhsinoon (do things in the best possible manners), the ones who repent etc. Allah further promises those who have Taqwa that He *will* *increase* their provisions and provide for them in ways they never thought imaginable...It's all in the Quran. It saddens me that we are fearing to name our children beautiful, honorable names like Muhammad, because of the waswas of the shayaateen (both mankind and Jinn). May Allah forgive us, guide us, and make us amongst those who hold the banner of Islam and Justice in all circumstances..may He grant us the lives of the content and the deaths of the shuhada'a. (Amin). Wa Allahu A'lam. your sis in struggle and confusion :( [wlm]

Re: Would you change your name?
sal
12/08/03 at 15:57:02
Changing the  name for the sake of  geting   a  job  sounds  like  lack  of  faith  in ALLAH  that   the  RAZAK is  a  human  being  , And  if  I believe    what ever  my  name  is ALLAH  gives  me what  he  has  wanted    for me  then I  will  get  that  obviously. If  I  find  myself  obliged  to change  name  for the sake of  job for  myself  just  becouse   as a  muslem I am  hated  randomly  by the  comunity I am  li ving with ,why not proof  with  my  name  the  reasons  I am  hated  is  not  existing in  me  and  similary  the same  name  holders    . If  the  neighbors and  freinds  find   me  nice and  kind , they  will  help  me  geting rid of such  difficulties  provided  I need to  stay  pateint during the  peroid  situations are  complicated  , but  if  I say  let  things come  to me and  stay away and  need to  be  understood with  no  effort  from me  to  proof  that  I am such  a  nice  thing  ,  this  seems  a  bit  hard to  have such a  big  oportunity, and I think  if  such steps are  taken by each  such  muslem  name holders  they will  help  themselves  other  than   escaping  from  the fact  , Proof  you are  not  what  they are  thinking  you are   if  you believe what  they  say about  you  is  not  true  and  right  ,and  they will  understand . If we  use    only 5% of the  pateince we  have  in  our  own  coun tres  I think we can   recognize   how  good we are  living . and any way   I WOULD  RATHER  TRY TO  PROOF  MY NAME HAS  NOTHING  TO DO WITH  WHAT  IS  WANTED  FROM ME  TO  DO  TO  OPEN  THE ROAD  FOR IT  IN THE LONG  TERM  THAN  CHANGING AND  GAINING   THE  GOOD  REPUTATION  UNDER A NEW  NAME I HAVE  NOT  HEARD  ANY CALLING  ME WITH
12/08/03 at 15:59:58
sal

Re: Would you change your name?
amatullah
12/08/03 at 18:00:24
I just asked someone who has some knowledge about this and this is the brief version of the answer: -The questioner must determine the dharar. How harmful is the situation. -If it is considered something harmful for survival, there are many consessions in our religion. Even eating the dead animal is allowed in Quran if it means survival. The incident of Ammar who was beaten to say something good about their gods, the prophet  [saw] told him if they go back to doing that, do it again, sholars (like bin othaimain) allowing someone to work in a pig factory until he secures a better job with the condition of keeping looking because of his dire need. And scholars allowing birthcontrol as long as it is a temproary matter and for certain reasons, etc. -When you do this are you sure you are Mutakkil on Allah first? you didn't think it is up to them? Did you pray in the middle of the night two rak'as asking Allah's help first? -In this sense, if you are in harm you can do something temproarily with degrees of whether that thing is haram, makrooh, mandoob, etc in regular situations, and depending on the level of harm  you face. -On the other hand, changing names if you are not in real need to do so, maybe have many negative results, esp. if it is done permanantly. It is sunnah to pick good muslim names. It is important so that people do not mix al-ansab (lineages?) -What if the owner of the company is in fact Muslim and you and the other guy applying is both exactly qualified, he would want to pick the Muslim for his duty. Could it be you lose other opportunitites? -What if they keep calling by the other name? He said this is definately not a fatwa, if you know some knowledge then you can decide for yourself, if not ask someone you know explaining your difficultites and he will insha'Allah be honest with you if there is a need or not.

Re: Would you change your name?
Nomi
12/09/03 at 00:43:25
[i]modifying[/i] [i]sorry in advance and i'll reiterate this at the end[/i] [slm] Study the history of non-Muslim countries, philipines in one GOOD example. At one stage in time there were more Muslims there than non-Muslims (or the proportion was alot different), many went with the flow starting from changing names to changing games. It took three generations but many of them are non-Muslims now. I'm doubting no one's faith here nor a weak soul like myself is in a position to do so (no one is). Another example is Africa where missionaries only allowed christians to join schools governed by them and hords of Muslims changed their names to nons followed by a disaster after a couple of generations! You guys must be knowing many bad things about Muslim countries which are true but we live here as first class citizens with no such pressures whatsoever. Pakistan is a third world country but thousands (thats a ten with three zeros upto 99 with three zeros) of houses here only in Lahore are as big as any executive in Europe and US wont even imagine of having (you can't imagine the look at my boss's face when he visited here from US). And these houses are owned by *medium* business owners. I myself belong to a middle class family but our dinning room only is bigger than houses of many of you reading this... with all facilities of life like a king alhamdulillah... All thanks to the Almighty. Point being, if anyone is that desperate then move to your homeland (Arshad bhai i know you weren't thinking of changing your name.... not till the sixteenth of ...... i know, so its not targetted at you). My take is please do not compromise....... Learn to live like men and women of honor. Look at the history of Indonesia, only four arab businessmen started their business and dawah there, purely on Islamic principles and look at that country today, the biggest Muslim country. Start your own business, do anything and if nothing works out.. GET BACK HOME u wont die inshaAllah... but dont compromise, follow the example of companions where each one of them was enough in faith and practice that Allah swt used small groups of them to give hedayah to whole tribes. [center] es hirs-o-hawas ko chorr meya mutt daes ba daes phiray mara qazzaq ajal ka luutaay hae din raat baja ker naqqara kya badya bhainsa bael shuter kya dhunee palla sir bhara kya gayhuu'n chawal mog maser kya aag dhuwaan aur angara sab dhaak para reh jaA ga jab laadh chalaay ga banjara [/center] But they say a man learns from *his* experience, i say that he should also learn from *others'* [slm] Your brother who is sorry if anyone got hurt by this post.
12/09/03 at 04:50:30
Nomi

Re: Would you change your name?
Halima
12/09/03 at 03:04:57
Nomi wrote: Another example is Africa where missionaries only allowed christians to join schools governed by them and hords of Muslims changed their names to nons followed by a disaster after a couple of generations! I do not agree with you here dear brother unlass you can give concrete evidence of which country in Africa.  Generalizing is not good.  In fact, many missionaries in Africa (East Africa is a very good example) respected Muslims and their Deen.  No child was ever told to change their name or chased from school.  In Kenya, the Kadhi Court was included in the constitution at independence time to give Muslims rights to issues related to marriages, divources, inheritance, etc.  Many missionary schools have a number of Muslims students and their religion is respected.  Some boarding schools have built Masjids for their Muslim students. Here, there is no need to change your Islamic name to get a job.  Sure, Muslims are sometimes treated like second class citizens but we still have Muslims working in all Government Ministries, Parastatals, NGOs, UN Agencies, etc.  No Muslim has had to change his or her name to get a job. It is not worth it and please let's not use the excuse of Poverty or Desperation for change of name to get a job.  If you want to change your name let it be because you want to, period.  There is also a Hadith in which Rasulullah  [saw] said that who ever changes his/her identity is a slave ....  I wish I could quote it here but I will have to find it. Besides, how does now live with pretending to be who they are not?  I guess it all dependes on one's conscious. May Allah make us strong to resist inferiority complexes and work to find a way to hold our heads high, Ameen. Halima

Re: Would you change your name?
lucid9
12/09/03 at 08:43:23
[slm] its all well high and mighty of you folks to talk about the idiocy of not naming your kids muhammad or fatima if they live in the west....but think about it from the point of view of a small kid growing up in a non-muslim society and going to a non-muslim school.... you the parent are not the one who the one who may be ridiculed, be told to perpetually f***k off, your name rhymed with a four letter work in a limerick which the whole class sings.  And you're not the vulnerable 10yr old kid who is too young, too nice, and too inexperienced  to deal with this kind of harrassment when i was in 7th grade everybody used to sing a song on the bus on the way home in which people shouted f*&k you and then shouted my name....believe me, it was terrible, just absolutely terrible....and my very self-confident and self-assured parents...could never understand what i was getting all worked up  about.   so....try to think of what is best for your kid...and not what you perhaps selfishly as a parent want.... just a thought....something to think about.  there are lots of beautiful muslim names which are more neutral --- like  zaynab, or zaid or iman or ayman....etc...
12/09/03 at 08:47:38
lucid9

Re: Would you change your name?
bhaloo
12/09/03 at 09:15:11
[slm] Nomi isn't generalizing about them, its a fact.  May Allah (SWT) protect us from them. AMEEN.  I've posted stories about these in the UCC in the past, so discuss it the appropriate thread, not here.  Let's stick to the original topic, ok? good. :) There's some very interesting points being made, and I"ll comment on them further.  I never thought of the name Richard before, hmmm. ;) Like Hyper mentioned, I was picked on by my name as well.  Kids can be very mean, and use these dirty rhymes like Hyper said.  What if your name is Osama?  You can't tell me you haven't had problems.  My last name creates a lot of problems, because people tend to associate me with a certain famous person in the news these days.   I remember last year when I applied at this one large company, I knew a manager that worked there, and gave him my resume for a position that I was very well qualified for, they didn't even respond or say anything.  He was really shocked that the Human Resources department didn't say a thing.   Sometimes when I have ordered food from a restaurant over the phone, like pizza, I'll use the name, Art.  The people working there are ignorant people, and if you call in and say your name is Osama, believe me you'll find that your order is messed up or they've put something weird in the pizza, like chewed gum.  I think one has to really look at the harms and benefits and make a determination.  With regards to changing names, I don't know.  But I heard from one government employee that they had received a directive not to hire any Muslims in the airline industry.  Now if I wanted to get in such an industry, I'd probably have to have a name like Richard Lee.  There's this one brother I know in the UK who graduated top in his class, but he wasn't able to find a job for a full year.  Why?  Well for every interview he went to, he wore a shalwaar kamiz, he said he wears it all the time, why does he have to dress up.  Finally after a year, he wore a suit and got a job.
12/09/03 at 09:16:22
bhaloo

Re: Would you change your name?
Fozia
12/09/03 at 11:56:50
[slm] Firstly Fatima actually has religious connotations in Catholicism too, you can't go to Spain without drowning in cheap tat with the name inscribed on it. My Catholic mid-wife was throughly delighted I had named my daughter Fatima... A few years ago when I was at university, I used to know two guys (obviously there were more than two who attended), both of them white middle class. One had a good old english name, I remember when it first cropped up in conversation (don't know why we were discussing it..) and I said gosh Hunts a good Surname I bet you don't get people mistaking you for a popular sweet... He looked at me somewhat wryly and remarked no I don't get mistaken for a sweet, however I do get unamusing rhymes yelled at me. I thought and thought and then he told me which four letter word rhymed with Hunt. Br. if kids are going to pick on you they'll do it regardless. Second guy was really sweet we made friends when he pleaded for help after claiming he was drowning not surfing the net! He told me once that his grandmother was Jewish they'd escaped to Poland but she had been in a concentration camp, the numbers still showed up tattoed on her arms albeit faintly. He said she never practiced her religion and if any Jew did, she'd hush them incase 'they' came for them..... I wonder is this how the Jewish holocaust began Wassalaam
12/09/03 at 11:59:34
Fozia

Re: Would you change your name?
siddiqui
12/09/03 at 12:22:31
[slm] Names .... Rhymes ...... Childhood scars They sure have a deep impact on the psyche of a growing up kid Too scary to even reflect on them or the tangential problems (psycho social probs that affect things like learning....)as a of the spin off from them Hey Hyper for once I agree with you :P j/king [wlm]

Re: Would you change your name?
lucid9
12/09/03 at 12:24:11
[quote author=Fozia link=board=madrasa;num=1070893619;start=10#16 date=12/09/03 at 11:56:50]  Br. if kids are going to pick on you they'll do it regardless. [/quote] sis, that's the excuse every parent uses....for me it is a bit rich... i mean just think about it from your daughter's perspective...you yourself, an adult grown female are harrassed by YOBs frequently...and are threatened, cursed at, etc...  It is difficult for you to put up with it even though you are a fully grown women with a husband to protect you. Do you want your very young defenseless daughter, who is very niave and  very kind hearted to be similarly harrasessed, and perhaps harrassed even worse than that (cuz kids are worse than anybody).  As you said you live in a place where there are few muslims, so there is nobody to stick up for her at school.  You I suspect grew up where there were plenty of muslims, and you had your own clique and other asian children to hang out with and protect you.  So, it is not the same... You should understand it is 1000 times worse in america, because very few muslim kids have other muslim classmates -- and hence have  nobody to stick up for them.  In britain you have whole schools where everybody is muslim, and nobody cares whether your name is Omar or Osama bin Laden.  So it is not the same. You have to understand things are much, much worse for kids than adults.  I have a FOB friend named Osama.  He doesn't get hassled because he's a grown up and runs around in academic circles and hangs out with muslims.  But a kid with the same name, you can be pretty sure he is gonna be harrassed, picked on, and if he is physically small -- physically abused. just something to think about....

Re: Would you change your name?
Fozia
12/09/03 at 13:06:37
[slm] Br. Hyper My children are going to Islamic schools Inshallah. BTW the yobs have gone dunno where don't particularly care to be honest. BUT they would pick on every and anyone, not just me. My hijaab has never made me a target alhumdulillah, 'cept the one time this guy in Sainsbury's thought it would be good to ask me out to lunch to my utter horror, now I use Tescos instead *sigh* really shouldn't happen to a hijaabi. An interesting aside, my husband said this year there were about a dozen young white reverts at the tarabeeh salat compared to none last year, I may not be living in an Muslim environment yet but it's headed that way inshallah. Also as hubby got onto the bus to come home after Eid prayers, the bus conductor asked him if he was Muslim (kinda obvious hubby was decked out in a pristine Dishdasha) when he answered in the affirmative bus conductor wished him 'Eid Mubarak' in a cockney accent  :D I went to a predominantly white primary school me my two cousins and this one black guy in my class were the only non-whites there!!! As it happens we were the only Muslim and the only ones who took packed lunch to school with us mother did not trust school dinners to be halal, we used to get told off for speaking Urdu to eachother... By the time we left over half the kids had started to bring their own lunches. I was never bullied, although as I spent my entire school time with my head buried in one book or another I wouldn't have noticed if I had been. Obviously my experience was different from yours, my childhood was very pleasant from what I recall, the only major upset being this boy called Andy who just kept giving me christmas cards every christmas it drove me nuts cos my dad made me send him one too as it was only polite..... I thoroughly disliked Andy... he was a yucky boy... You obviously had a really unhappy childhood for it to still colour your judgement now. You're in my Duaas Wassalaam

Re: Would you change your name?
muslimah853
12/09/03 at 14:38:36
[slm] I guess I can understand where one is coming from if you've had a negative experience with being picked on, but I can honestly say that we had very few Muslims in my public school experience, but the phenomenon of children being picked on was not strange to us, and it is not strange to a whole lot of kids.  Kids got picked on for a wide range of reasons...for being "ugly", "fat", "weird", "smart", "dumb", "poor", "rich", and even for being "pretty".  Interestingly enough, one of the few Muslim girls I remember from school, had a very outwardly Muslim name, but didn't practice *at all*.  She was very "loose", unfortunately, subhanallah, and *that's* what she got picked and humiliated on for--her name could have been Nancy or Susan--and she still would have caught it.  I remember a few years back a young girl committing suicide because of the taunting she received at the hands of her peers in school, she was a Wiccan, I believe, dressed a little differently, etc.  The problem is the culture in the schools.  Hey, I've been picked on at times as a kid, and I didn't grow up Muslim...but one thing I've learned from all of that is that I had to like myself, whether anyone else did or not.  And doing that required some tough choices...learning that I had to remain true to myself no matter what.  It wasn't always easy or pleasant, but al hamdulillah. The goal, IMO, should be to create a world where people can be comfortable with who they are, not to cave into people's prejudices.  One can change their name, have plastic surgery to change their appearance to something more "mainstream", and alter their identity to a point where they don't even recognize themselves.  But bigots still will not like you. They might smile in your face until their facial muscles freeze, but they still will call you sand n***, camel jockey, towel head or Osama bin Laden behind your back--and deny you the job if Allah places it in their hands to do that. I understand that sometimes, sometimes, an individual's circumstance might call for something different, like I know sisters who may have decided to alter or remove their hijab because they felt like they are/were in danger, maybe the family who has 10 kids and can't find a place to live because no one wants to rent to a family that large--maybe they end up taking out a mortgage because that's the only way they can provide shelter for their children, sometimes people are in a tough pinch and have to take the less defiant course of action to save their immediate needs.  It's not for anyone to judge, certainly not for me.  BUT--there has to be a point at which each of us stands our ground.  It's a fact of life, sometimes people will not like who you are, they will not like what you do.  What are you going to do?  Apostate because some people don't like Muslims?  That's something I've tried to share with my kids...and I've tried to do whatever I can as a parent to nurture their confidence in who they are as a Muslim, and trust to Allah.

Re: Would you change your name?
Maliha
12/09/03 at 16:49:16
[slm] well said sis Muslima and Fozia:) interesting how the women in this thread are taking more defiant stances than the men :-[ hmm...something to ponder over... The basic point is how much are you willing to compromise for your own "comfort"? Also how many revolutions throughout history succeeded w/ people putting their heads in the sand. It aint gonna work. We have to make a stance as Muslims period. if not for our own weak selves then at least the next generation. If we don't fight to uphold Allah's Deen,  the Quran  tells us clearly that Allah will get rid of us, and produce another people that will Love Him and He Will Love them back. Just as many people are changing their names to Mike, there are multitudes legally requesting to change their names into Muhammad and more importantly living up to those names. There are those who foresake wealth, status, social power, for the sake of Allah...how much are you willing to give up? As Vicergerents we do have a responsibility on this earth. Our visibility as Muslims is imperative to uphold the banner of Islam. No one has touched on this issue yet..and it is the core. Why else would Allah specify everything to the presumably mundane issues of hijab and beard? The distinction of the believing community from the rest is a huge factor here. We are the walking flag bearers of truth and if we look, sound, even are named as everyone else where is the distinction? more importantly where's the pride in the continuity of our history and legacy? it's more than just a name, its what you represent. And as long as you represent something Islamic,you will necessarily deal with the pressure of being Muslim. Allah told us He would not leave us to say we believe without being tested and tried until He can distinguish between our various ranks. Again how much of your dunya exactly are you willing to bargain for your akhera? I gain my strength from my faith in Allah, and no hyper, this is not mere rhetoric. I think the mere fact that thousands of women leave their houses with hijaab and jilbabs in a predominately jahili society speaks a lot about our collective strength..Walhamdullilah.  and my babies are gonna be little fighters man, we gonna have my little Hamza, Aisha, Umar, Maryam be rockin' the world and showing them just how cool dem Mozlems really are 8) you never know they may even start a trend in school for wearing hijaab and sporting beards and kufis :o  ;-) :-) :o as a side point, arshaad, rishard doesn't really suit ya anyway :P keep up the struggle yo Muslim bros, dont you be gettin' all weak on us now...!   >:( [wlm]
12/09/03 at 17:05:47
Maliha

Re: Would you change your name?
Nomi
12/09/03 at 23:28:35
[slm] [quote author=bhaloo link=board=madrasa;num=1070893619;start=10#15 date=12/09/03 at 09:15:11] I've posted stories about these in the UCC in the past, so discuss it the appropriate thread, not here.  Let's stick to the original topic, ok? good. :) [/quote] zaberdast!! you guys got my thread killed about something i was dieing to discuss... so NO mercy here. So those stats, if i may use the word, were for uganda. I was told this before but really believe it now after my elder bro met a bro from uganda who is studying religion for a long time to become an Alim. Dawah in uganda started from 2 (two) Muslim Merchants and at one stage in time there were around 90% Muslims there. Presently 66% are non-Muslims. Reason? ... The same thing i mentioned before and none of them converted with *logic* but for material stuff. Its a fact that no Muslim can convert to another religion if s/he knows his/her religion well as Islaam simply has got all the answers, on the other hand we see priests and jehovah witness ministers converting to Islaam.... Allahu Akbar.. Many (not all) in non-Muslim countries grow up with pressures being talked about in this thread but few have i seen who still can walk with their heads up high (100% not 80 not 90 but a full 100%). Thats what i like about the guy named bear aka bhaloo. [slm]
12/09/03 at 23:31:49
Nomi

Re: Would you change your name?
faith
12/10/03 at 00:08:23
[slm] A name represent's one's identity.  That's why many reverts to Islam choose a muslim name, to identify themselves as muslims and live a new life in accordance with Islam.   :) To flip the coin, one would change one's name to a non-muslim one (mostly Aglo names as oppose to French, German, Spanish etc) to have an identity of a westerner and conform to western standards, to live his/her life as a westerner  (e.g. to climb western corporate ladder, or entry to elite schools (for one's self or children), partying, sociliasing according to western norms, materialistic lifestyle, - big house, big cars as  barometers of success).   If you fear poverty because of discrimination in employment because your name stands out, then surely you know that the God's earth is vast.    Allah has promised provisions for those who emigrate for the cause of Allah.   :) "And those who emigrated for the cause of Allah and then were killed or died - Allah will surely provide for them a good provision. And indeed, it is Allah who is the best of providers. He will surely cause them to enter an entrance with which they will be pleased, and indeed, Allah is Knowing and Forbearing." (22:58-59) I know people emigrate to the West to seek a better way of life, or that they are the 2nd generation of migrants.   Perhaps your parents chose sustenance over faith, but you, 2nd/3rd generation migrants, could make a choice too, to preserve your religion or your sustenance.   You may know, there are many westerners (expats) living in muslim countries, living lavishly and getting highly paid compared to locals who have equal qualifications and expertise, I don't know why muslims in the west can't emigrate to muslim countries to seek a better life if your faith is treatened by poverty.   If you have the knowledge/skills/experience/qualifications, then you would be marketable in many countries.   As bro Nomi said, you could always move back to your native country - but I wish to extend his statement further to many muslim countries.   Before anyone attack me for implying a mass exodus of western muslims to the east, I would like to bring up a history lesson of Andalusia, Spain and the Spanish Inquisition.   7/8 centuries ago, the Catholic queen Isabella and her army fought off the muslims living in southern Spain, Andalusia.   Muslims there were killed in battles, those who survived were given an ultimatum, convert to christianity, or leave the land or face execution. :( :'(  Many muslims left and emigrated to north africa to save their faith, but those who chose to stay, converted and changed their names, and their identities lost with their progenies.   Now, you might find one or two lucky spaniard who could trace back their roots to the Moroes (muslim spain), but they would not be able to tell you their forefathers' names.   Think about it, would'nt it be easier for you to enter a pub and drink beer with your colleagues/friends if your name is a neutral name of "Adam" than if you were called "Ahmad"?  It wouldn't be awkward for "Adam" to drink with his buddies, compared to "Ahmad".   [] Just simple things like your name can save your faith...  Think about it :-) P.s I wish my name were Fatima Al-Zahra (Fatima the Resplendent - how blessed was her life....  perhaps that could've helped me to save my faith earlier...)

Re: Would you change your name?
traveller
12/10/03 at 15:19:19
[slm] While I would agree with faith that one's name is an important part of one's identity, perhaps I can offer a slightly different perspective.  I myself am a convert, Canadian born and raised, of European ancestry.  What really is a "Muslim" name though?  Are Arabic names the only "Muslim" names"?  Certainly it is sunnah to name one's children after the Prophets, and virtuous figures in the Quran and amongst the Sahaba and later generations of Muslims--no argument there and these are beautiful names.  But for me, I personally did NOT want to change my name--because I felt that when I became Muslim I had just found out who I really was, my name was an integral part of me, and there was no unIslamic meaning associated with it.  As one brother I know pointed out, many of the Sahaba kept their own names when they became Muslim.  In fact, although many Muslims might consider my name "non-Muslim", I would argue that it is indeed a Muslim name, because it's my name, it has a good meaning, and I am a Muslim!  :)  Perhaps if we are more effective in our dawah, the range of names perceived as Muslim might be broadened.  (Interestingly, in our community most of the converts keep their original names.)  And as a side note--I hardly think Adam is a "neutral" name--as Muslims we believe in Adam as the first created human, and as a prophet.  If I am blessed with a son, inshaAllah, I think this would be a great Muslim name, as it is both Islamic and Western.   This leads into my next point,  which is the idea that being  "Western" is somehow incompatible with being "muslim".  Often, even unconsciously, Muslims use the terms "Western" and "the West" as being synonymous with "non-muslim".  Yet I am both Western and Muslim.  I feel that this is a very problematic premise which leads to a sort of identity crisis for a lot of Western muslims.  I think that one way out of our identity crisis as Muslims in the west is to foster our own indigenous expression of Islam.  (Note:  this does NOT mean assimilation, or making what is halal haram or vice versa).  We need to strengthen our communities and institutions to preserve our faith, to effectively invite people to Islam, and to simply be good Muslims trying to do good within the societies in which we live, while at the same time embracing those aspects of Western culture that harmonize with Islamic values and principles.   Although there are many challenges as a minority in the West, there are also opportunities that we can take advantage of if we are wise and strong, and we work hard. wasalaam, hope

Re: Would you change your name?
Maliha
12/10/03 at 17:29:50
[slm] hope those are really interesting points you make..i actually thought about Kathy (calling you out mamma mod :P ) when I wrote my prior posts. but aren't you then dealing with a different issue here? It's one thing for a non Muslim to revert, preserve their name, but actually become good Muslims which then becomes an awesome Dawah opportunity for everyone. What about those with arabic/indo pak sounding names though, and them changing their beautiful names for a job??? or any other perceived advantage in a totally worldly sense? Or them deciding *not* to name their kids perfectly beautiful names for the sake of so called opportunities? the actual point is where are we gonna stop? is hijaab too much of a giveaway? beard? etc etc. It all depends on the niyyah man...Wa Allahu A'lam. welcome to the board hope :-* your sis in struggle :-) [wlm]

Re: Would you change your name?
muslimah853
12/10/03 at 21:00:20
[slm] Actually, I agree with you Hope, and would have brought it up but I thought it might take the thread off topic. I am also very much against converts changing their names when they become Muslim if it's done out of some sense of they *must* or they aren't accepted by the Muslims around them if they don't.  It may seem like contradictory positions, but to me it's the same principle...a society or community which is supposed to value diversity forcing a single identity onto all of its adherents.  In the case of America, discriminating against people who aren't "American", and in the case of Islam, the idea that Arab=Muslim.  I have an Arabic first name that the Muslims know me by...but my regular old "American" name I have never changed legally, for many of the reasons you mentioned...unlike someone who was born Muhammad or Fatima, and that name *is* a part of their cultural background.  (An interesting thing happened to me once when I was looking for an apt...I called this place to see if there were any apartments available, the person I spoke to on the phone assured me that there were plenty of apartments available, I just needed to come to such and such a place and speak to such and such a person to get the ball rolling...well, when I showed up and asked for so and so--he saw me and didn't realize that my "American" name went with the woman in hijab in front of him, and told me that there were no apartments available and that he wasn't the person I needed to speak to.  So yeah, my name got me in the door but my appearance caused him to discriminate.  I knew he was lying and why...but the way I look at it if that's the way the management is there is no reason why I should live here and give them my money every month.) There is alot of difference, IMO, between someone taking a name to signify a change in their outlook in life as opposed to hiding who one really is to make bigots more comfortable.  I know that people don't necessarily set out to make bigots comfortable, usually they're simply trying to get a job or whatever.

Re: Would you change your name?
UmmWafi
12/11/03 at 11:10:35
[slm] I think in every situation, be it big or small, whenever we have to make a decision, it is always best to makea  short du'ah for hikmah.  Inshaa Allah with hikmah, we can make a better guided decision.  Similarly, with the case of preserving VS changing one's name, it again depends on the hikmah guiding us.  In some cases, the repercussions could be very dangerous and even life threatening and in others, very minimal effects. Hyper, I do empathise with you because I attended a snotty girls' school and was teased and taunted for 6 years.  Then I went to secondary school and was teased and taunted for another 4 years.  The trauma, not to mention the psychological damage, can be acute for the sufferer.  However, despite our experiences, I think we have to allow the possibility that the same scenario may not yield the same result. Different people fight the same battles differently, while some fight different battles altogether.  We should allow everyone to best decide how to fight their battles. I named my son Abdul Wafi Solihin (and that is not even including the bin and my husband's name yet) and he attends a racially mixed school.  When it is my daughter's turn to attend school, I will make sure that when she is asked, she will proudly say that her name is Solehah. I am now in the process of searching for a part-time job and despite many applications where I know for sure I am well qualified for the job, I was not even called for an interview.  This being an ignorant and racist society, I know that for the most part, I am rejected because I wear the hijab.  Times are hard and financially, we are rather strained.  What should I do ? Take off my hijab ?   We all need to decide how best we should tackle our problems.  However, what we should bear in mind is, when do we stop ? What is our limit ?  I have many non-hijabis who asked me what the fuss was since wearing the hijab is a personal decision.  However, what they don't realise is by not wearing the hijab, they make us hijabi  "fanatical" "fundamentalists" and etc.  I have been asked this question so many times that I am sick of it. "Oh..why should u wear the head thingy when other good Muslim women don't ? Maybe its you.".  So, maybe, what my ramblings are trying to say is, sometimes, what we do, its no longer just about us. Allahu 'alim. Wassalam

Re: Would you change your name?
Khariya
12/11/03 at 17:18:01
Salam  [slm] It's so ironic we are even discussing such as thing. I have many convert friends who have changed their names to "Islamic" names. They face countless harrassment from their families, who many times will not even acknowledge their existence. I dont think many of you know what it is like to be 14 or 16 and receive that kind of treatment from your parents. Yet they still strive to perserve their Islamic identity. Is a rose still a rose if you call it by any other name? No it is NOt. If you call it a "weed", it has lost its persona. The Prophet(SAW)ordered new converts to Islam to change their names, if they had degrading names. Why would the Prophet(SAW) order such a thing, if names had no bearing on our characters. Allah Alim. Consider that you do change your name to say something like Diana. Do you think the prejudice will stop there? Not if you happen to be of brown or dark skinned I'm sure their is a high correlation between people who discriminate based on names, with those who discriminate based on color. So what are you going to do next: change your color? I myself was born and raised in America. I grew up in the Bible Belt, and never once experienced any form of discrimination or prejudice while in school. Yes I did experience prejudice do to my religon in some places, but I experinced more positive then negative, and that as a young child is what I chose to think about. Tolerance will only come through pluralism, not assimilation. P.s No offence to the convert brothers and sisters who do not change their names.  :)
12/11/03 at 21:59:31
Khariya

Re: Would you change your name?
bhaloo
12/11/03 at 20:47:45
[slm] Guys, first of all I'm not saying to compromise in any form of ibadah whatsoever.  Alhumdullilah at my present employer, I go to the masjid every day and pray, and talking with other non-Muslims, this one guy told a very strong christian that not all pakistanis are terrorists, look at Arshad.  If you are being asked to compromise in preforming any of your religious obligations, then you shouldn't be there.   At my last job, I used to pray in my office.  After 9/.11, I could hear all these people making jokes about the taliban and muslims and passing jokes around.  I didn't appreciate it.  A few weeks later, I was layed off.  I was making a lot of money had my own personal office, and never dreamed i could possibly make more or be in a better siituation.  Well alhumdullilah i am in a much better situation.

Re: Would you change your name?
Fozia
12/12/03 at 06:09:21
[slm] When I don't get what I want (a very rare occurance for yours truly), I always pray that Allah gives me something better than that which I have lost, and Alhumdulillah my Creator is the greatest and nobody can do anything bad to me if he doesn't want it to be. I've got to say, I have a Muslim name, I'm a woman, a hijaabi, and Asian. Going by that the odds do appear kind of stacked against me. BUT I was still headhunted by a white non-muslim woman who wanted me to work for her...... the non-Mulsim guy who owned the company I worked in prior to this job asked me to name my price... Allah is the one who bestows honour nobody else, I'm not changing my name to Catherine (although it is a very pretty name), donning heels, skirt and make-up in the quest for a job. I know my worth I know I work hard and any company who hires me will not fail to be pleased to have me on board. However they hire me they get the Muslimah, Hijaab, Jilbab, Lunch exactly at Zuhr times and if they don't like it I don't want to be there. But that's me Ms Attitude..... I remember I once read this on a gift card, 'We can all fly as high as the dreams we dare to dream.... Unless we are a chicken' Wassalaam

Re: Would you change your name?
BroHanif
12/12/03 at 13:37:19
For my brothers, Rischard (Arhsad) and Antomy(Nomi) Assalamu alykum, A few months ago, IACN initiated an undercover operation targeting various employers across Nottingham.  Alhamdulillah the operation has been highly successful and we are pleased to be able to disclose some of the information initially kept confidential. Insha’Allah the following report will highlight this operation by briefly discussing its aims & objectives, adopted methodology, outlining 2 incident outcomes and closing with a conclusion. Operation Employer OASIS Observe Analyze Scrutinize Investigate Study Aims & Objectives The key aim of this operation was to investigate Islamophobia within different work environments and take effective measures for its eradication. Adopted Methodology The employers were selected at random during this operation, primarily through adverts in the Nottingham Evening Post.  Once an employer had been selected, an agent would be assigned to that particular employer.  The agent would then follow the provided instructions and apply either in writing or call the employer depending on the advert. If the agent failed to get the job then the employer was asked to explain their decision.   All agents were instructed to monitor in detail matters such as how the employer responds to them, the treatment they receive, the work environment, equal opportunity policies, etc If there was satisfaction with the employer after having worked for some time then the agent would arrange a meeting with the supervisor/manager and disclose IACN’s Islamophobia  undercover investigation.  The agent would then highlight how the rights of Muslims are often violated mainly due to ignorance and misinformation about Islam. The agent would indicate that the treatment they received at that company was fair and would advise the employer to continue in this manner and contact IACN if any issues arise.  The agent would then resign. On the other hand, if the agent felt that they had been discriminated against then IACN would arrange a meeting with the recruitment manager/supervisor and advise him/her that we believe that X person has been discriminated against.  We would ask them to provide us with their recruitment procedures and equal opportunity policy.  If our investigation concluded that the employer had indeed discriminated against the agent then we would suggest a course of action to the employer.  We would also inform them that their mistreatment would be brought into the public domain unless they follow our instructions and take the appropriate action.  The course of action varied depending on the circumstances. Islamophobic incidents we encountered We will briefly highlight  two Islamophobic incidents we encountered during this operation.  The identities of the employers will not be disclosed as they complied with our recommended course of action. Incident A – A recruitment agency Two agents from IACN phoned the recruitment agency at two different times.  The first call was placed at approximately 10am regarding a warehouse job that was seen in the Nottingham Evening Post that morning.  The conversation was along the following lines: Agent:  “Hi, I’ve just seen your job advert for the warehouse work in the Evening Post and I’m interested in taking up this position.” Lady @ the agency:  “Oh yes, brilliant, could I have your name please?” Agent:  “Mohammed.” Lady @ the agency:  “Ah right.  Let me check something.  Mohammed I’m afraid the vacancy has been filled.” Agent:  “Hmmm…that’s strange.  Filled so quickly?” Lady @ the agency:  “Yeah these jobs go very quickly I’m afraid.  Sorry.  However I could take your telephone number and call you if we have any appropriate vacancies in the future.” Agent gives his telephone number, thanks the lady and ends the call. About half an hour later, a second call is made to the agency.  The same lady takes the call and the conversation was roughly as follows: Agent: “O hi.  My name is John.  I’m calling about…umm…your warehouse job.” Lady @ the agency:  “That’s excellent John.  Do you have any past experience?” Agent:  “Yeah I’ve worked at a warehouse before plus I’ve done newspaper rounds.” Lady @ the agency:  “Do you have a driving licence?” Agent:  “Yep.” Lady @ the agency:  “That’s good.  Would you be able to come in at 3 O Clock today for a quick chat?” Agent:  “Yeah sure.” Lady @ the agency:  “Fabulous.  Our address is XXXX and we are near XXXX….When you come in ask for XXXX and we’ll go from there.  Ok?” Agent:  “That’s great.  See you at 3, XXXX.  Bye.” Five minutes later, IACN phoned the agency and asked to speak to XXXX.  We informed her that a guy called “Mohammed” had phoned earlier this morning and that she had advised him that the vacancy was no longer available after hearing his name.  However when “John” called, she invited him for an interview.  The lady started mumbling and said that she thought that “Mohammed” could not speak English.  “How could you possibly think so when the whole conversation was in English?” we argued.  We asked her to put us through to her Manager.   We informed the manager of the whole story and asked for an appointment to discuss this matter in further detail.  In the meeting we suggested that XXXX be suspended and must undergo equal opportunities training.  The agency agreed. Incident B – A packaging factory An agent from IACN started working at a packaging factory.  Everything seemed to be going well and even a room was provided for prayer after a request.  The general environment at the factory was satisfactory.  However the agent did notice that certain individuals working on the same conveyor belt would always start talking about “Bin Laden” and “Taliban”.  The agent pointed this out to the supervisor who simply said to “ignore them.”   We contacted the supervisor and pointed out this incident.  It seemed to us that she was not very well versed with equal opportunity laws nor had the factory managers really instructed the staff on these policies.  We suggested that they re-implement their policies properly and define a clear disciplinary procedure for anyone who fails to abide by them.  The factory agreed and apologised. The agent then resigned. Conclusion Islamophobia is a disease rampant in our society and deserves immediate attention at every level.  It is a fact that not much is being done to curb this cancer. IACN will insha’Allah continue it’s efforts to overcome Islamophobia and ensure that the rights of our Muslim brothers and sisters are protected.  We will insha’Allah coordinate with other organisations, particularly like-minded Muslim groups with a similar commitment to ours.  We must however point out that for us to succeed your cooperation is vital.  Do not suffer in silence.  If you have suffered or are currently suffering because of your Muslim identity whether at school, college, university or work; then contact us now. Islamic Affairs Central Network (IACN) Nottingham, United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 115 844 9705 E-mail: info@iacn.org.uk Website: www.iacn.org.uk
NS

Re: Would you change your name?
Halima
12/14/03 at 04:48:40
Maashallah brother. I hope our Muslim brothers and sisters in North America will be pro-active too, instead of being reactive all the time.  Remember, UNITY IS STRENGTH.  And, unity can come about ONLY if issues are targetted COLLECTIVELY rather than INDIVIDUALLY. It is time for those Islamic Organizations in North America to work for Muslims sincerely and wholeheartedly regardless of obstacles on their paths. These are trying times which need UNIFIED efforts like never before.  BroHanif has given a good example that you can fight battles without weapons or violence and win.  A small victory is victory nevertheless. Halima

Re: Would you change your name?
Laila_Y_A
12/16/03 at 10:48:27
[slm]       After being the family black sheep for WAY too many years (too fat, can't do hair right, needed braces, did not smoke, etc.), I compounded the situation by reverting the February before the 1st. Trade Center incident.  Several years later, after my Mom died (my major opponent in all things), I went to court and legally changed my name to a more Islamic sounding one.      Now, since that time, more terrible incidents have occured, but I have yet to feel the need to use my old name, and I currently live in a small town where there is 1 Muslim. ;) Yep- it's me!! Most of the people here do not even associate my name with Islam, or Muslims- and for the life of me I haven't been able to figure that one out!! ::)      So now this old  :-) is gonna kick back, have a diet  [] and see how the dust settles on this thread.  [wlm]
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