A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Maliha |
| 12/18/03 at 09:38:08 |
| [slm] I don't understand??? chirac passed the stupid law...where's the noise? The french muslims are soooo Quiet?! I went from site to site to hear the protest, see a demonstration...something?! What's going on??? whose next? Germany? Britain? Amerikkka? i don't really understand the silence though? gosh i feel like the world's masses have turned into meek sheep being slowly led to the slaughter houses... sigh...what can i do about this? any ideas? sis awaiting the heavens to crash down and pulverize our worthless existences :'( [wlm] |
| 12/18/03 at 09:39:40 |
| Maliha |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| jaihoon |
| 12/18/03 at 09:52:30 |
| [wlm] Welcome to the world of 'comforting silence' :( |
| 12/18/03 at 09:55:17 |
| jaihoon |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| jannah |
| 12/18/03 at 12:31:07 |
| [wlm] how pathetic.. what hypocrisy.. whatever happenned to liberte and egalite for all in france. looks like it's for everyone except muslims... welcome to the new post iraq war world of neo nazism... i guess people don't get it when they start limiting any minority groups right other's will follow and we'll have all these neo-nazi groups rise up and justify themselves...they just want to marginalize muslims i still can't believe i saw a black woman get up on tv and say that everyone in france should be the same... astaghfirullah well someone told me that the girls should start wearing hats, fedoras and winter scarfs...but i doubt that will work. most girls will drop out of school... interesting that france doesn't get that the best way to assimilate muslims is to keep them in the schools. |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Aurora |
| 12/18/03 at 13:45:10 |
| And to add to that to quote from an article I received today, [quote]>Business leaders should be allowed to "regulate the wearing of religious >signs" for safety reasons and for dealing with clients, Chirac said. > >He did not specify that head scarves will be banned at work but said he was >ready "if necessary" to send measures to parliament to give bosses the >ability to set their own rules on religious symbols. > >Chirac said a law also is needed to stop patients from refusing treatment >by doctors of the opposite sex. Doctors say there have been cases, >particularly in suburbs with immigrant populations, of Muslim women or >their husbands rebuffing male doctors. [/quote] What is wrong with these people I dont know. And to think a muslim guy from Canada saved Chirac's life last year - la hawla wala quwata illah billahil aleeyul azeem. |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Abdul_Hakeem_Yaqin |
| 12/18/03 at 14:17:01 |
| assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatu allahi wa barakatuh akhwat wa ikhwan [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=ummah;num=1071758288;start=0#0 date=12/18/03 at 09:38:08] [slm] I don't understand??? chirac passed the stupid law...where's the noise? The french muslims are soooo Quiet?! I went from site to site to hear the protest, see a demonstration...something?! What's going on??? whose next? Germany? Britain? Amerikkka? i don't really understand the silence though? gosh i feel like the world's masses have turned into meek sheep being slowly led to the slaughter houses... sigh...what can i do about this? any ideas? sis awaiting the heavens to crash down and pulverize our worthless existences :'( [wlm] [/quote] the principal of the mosque in paris has said that he will support chiracs new law, although he wished a few months for muslims to get aquinted with it. |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Abdul_Hakeem_Yaqin |
| 12/18/03 at 14:18:49 |
| [quote author=jannah link=board=ummah;num=1071758288;start=0#2 date=12/18/03 at 12:31:07][wlm] how pathetic.. what hypocrisy.. whatever happenned to liberte and egalite for all in france. looks like it's for everyone except muslims... welcome to the new post iraq war world of neo nazism... i guess people don't get it when they start limiting any minority groups right other's will follow and we'll have all these neo-nazi groups rise up and justify themselves...they just want to marginalize muslims i still can't believe i saw a black woman get up on tv and say that everyone in france should be the same... astaghfirullah well someone told me that the girls should start wearing hats, fedoras and winter scarfs...but i doubt that will work. most girls will drop out of school... interesting that france doesn't get that the best way to assimilate muslims is to keep them in the schools. [/quote] you should vote for me in next election ;) ;D |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Fozia |
| 12/18/03 at 14:26:55 |
| [quote author=Abdul Hakeem Yaqin link=board=ummah;num=1071758288;start=0#4 date=12/18/03 at 14:17:01] the principal of the mosque in paris has said that he will support chiracs new law, although he wished a few months for muslims to get aquinted with it.[/quote] [slm] Yep I posted that article on this forum a while back. I must say the Jewish Rabbi appeared to show more concern than the Imam- who basically said give us 6 months, we'll persuade our girls to strip... Does anyone know if France has many Muslim schools? I guess that would be the only resort or of course home schooling. It's pretty horrifying to think that this law will also give weight to discriminating in the workplace, in which case I guess the only thing is for Muslims to start their own businesses and hire their own... If anything this law will only serve to underline the difference and increase the distance between the muslim and non-muslims... Allah help us all. I guess Germany will follow next, they're pretty tight with France. Wassalaam |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Abdul_Hakeem_Yaqin |
| 12/18/03 at 14:34:17 |
| sister Fozia, your fast reply indicates that you are online now. me was wondering, what does the stars mean under our names, I have noticed that sister jannahs name has 5 stars under it, your has two or three, and mine just one little tiny ipsy ipsy star. me know me is not so smart so me wonder if you can pass me the insight to this very confusing matter :) I know you wont dissapoint me :) |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Fozia |
| 12/18/03 at 14:43:31 |
| [slm] Br. the stars indicate the number of posts we've made, mine indicate I've written over 200 the stars increase inaccordance. I think after you hit a thousand you get five and Sr. Jannah is like in charge so hers are red too!!! Wassalaam BTW you can see who's online by checking the bottom left hand side of the city page. |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Maliha |
| 12/18/03 at 15:17:42 |
| [slm] the secularist agenda in the world is too stark and too chillingly open for Muslims to continue to be asleep. The muslim ideology remains the only one that threatens the very core of their agenda. But some serious issues are arising: a) What are we doing in "public" schools, that aren't so public and bent on enfusing and training mini secularist thinkers to participate and build a dajjalic civilization? b)Where's the leadership? Where's the collective vision? who can we turn to when its *our* (me and you) turn to be affected by all this madness? c) Time is running out and if we don't feel the pressure to *do* something...we might as well be dead. I don't care how many rakaats you pray at night, if you don't fulfil your obligation to the Ummah, society and humanity in general you might as well be dead. sigh...i feel sick:( [wlm] |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| stap |
| 12/18/03 at 16:27:45 |
| Why are people looking upon this news as if it were a disaster? It is in fact barakah from Allah. First of all, by exposing those who are truly Muslims and those who are munafiqoon. Secondly, it shows the Muslims the fulfillment of the Quranic ayah, that never will the unbelievers rest until you follow that which they follow. Thirdly, this will force the Muslims to produce their own educational establishments and institutions which are free from secularist propaganda. Looking at these points,, I cannot really see anything to be angered or upset about... |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Abdussamed |
| 12/18/03 at 17:37:57 |
| [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=ummah;num=1071758288;start=0#0 date=12/18/03 at 09:38:08] What's going on??? whose next? Germany?[/quote] Germany has still started Hijaab problems yet long time before.ago.. [wlm] |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| se7en |
| 12/18/03 at 22:38:29 |
| as salaamu alaykum, [quote]First of all, by exposing those who are truly Muslims and those who are munafiqoon. [/quote] not sure what exactly you are referring to here, but I don't think it's right for us to label those who have a hard time following Islam under pressure as 'hypocrites'. There were some companions of the Prophet Muhammad [saw] who even gave in under pressure, and they were considered the best generation. We should have mercy on each other and ask Allah to strengthen us and grant us courage in the face of such challenges. wasalaam |
| 12/18/03 at 22:40:19 |
| se7en |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| timbuktu |
| 12/19/03 at 01:47:01 |
| [slm] if it makes sis Nur any happier: http://islamonline.net/English/News/2003-12/18/article07.shtml French Muslims, Leftists Slam Chirac’s Anti-Hijab Stand Banning hijab means "excluding Muslim females from getting such rights as access to education and work," said Mrs Gaballah By Hadi Yahmid, IOL Correspondent PARIS, December 18 (IslamOnline.net) – France’s Muslim organizations and leftist parties Thursday, December 18, branded President Jacques Chirac’s call for a law banning religious symbols, particularly hijab, in public schools and institutions as a violation of religious freedom. "The proposals to ban religious symbols stem from a narrow-minded perception of secularism," Fouad Olawi, deputy chairman of the French Council for the Muslim Religion (CFCM), told IslamOnline.net. "It is also a violation of religious and personal freedoms," he asserted. Chirac announced Wednesday, December 17, that : "Islamic veil - whatever name we give it - the kippa and a cross that is of plainly excessive dimensions: these have no place in the precincts of state schools. He asserted that "a law is necessary" to ban religious symbols in public schools and state institutions. Olawi said that Muslims – the largest minority in the country with a five-million population – now "suspect a tendency to curb their presence and religious freedom" in the rigidly-secular France. Amar Lasfar, the president of Lille's Muslim Municipality, asserted that any law banning hijab would be challenged via all possible peaceful ways. "Passing such a law is unconstitutional, and Muslim organizations and groups would stand against it even in courts, " he told IOL in as furious as challenging tone. Lasfar cited the ruling issued the State Council, the highest judicial authority in the country, in 1989 which concluded that hijab poses no problem whatsoever as long as it is not a source for harassment or a disturbance of the public order. ‘Exclusive’ For Muslim women, the ban would be much harsher, since taking off the hijab would not be an easy thing, with observers predicting this would drive them towards isolation and then weaken their chances for integration. "Calls for banning the hijab mean excluding Muslim females from getting such rights as access to education and work," said Nura Gaballah, chairwoman of the French Muslim Women Society. "Muslim women would be then considered insiders in any place they go to, something which is against all values enshrined in the French law and established by the Revolution," she told IOL. According to Islamic shariaa (law) hijab is obligatory for women, while this is not the case of the cross in Christianity or the Kappa in Judaism. Furthermore, added the Muslim activist, Chirac sent the wrong message in his speech by implicitly associating Islamic beliefs with sexism. Chirac called for a law to stop patients refusing treatment from a doctor of the opposite sex, saying some parties – which he stopped short of identifying – have a backwareded perception of sex equality. "To think that Islam disregards rights of women - and therefore they should be protected - is a traditional incorrect reading of the real Islamic conception of sex equality," Gaballah averred. Leftists Join Forces In the meantime, the ban also sent shockwaves among French leftist parties, which slammed the move as potentially counterproductive. Chirac’s statement opens the door for a circumstantial law, which gives the feeling that it is mainly targeting Muslims in the country, said the secretary general of the Green Party. He said the 1989 State Council decisions were enough to iron out any differences triggered by hijab. For its part, French Communist Party (PCF) leader Marie George Buffet regretted that Chirac took exceptional measures hindering the road for immigrants to integrate in the French community. Such problems could have been addressed by ways other than resorting to difficult-to-implement law, she said. Jews Support On the other extreme, the council of Jewish organizations in France lauded Chirac’s position. In a statement, the council said Chirac’s speech was based on the principle that whoever wants to live in France must abide by its laws. It also support Chirac’s refusal to endorse a recommendation for making the Muslim Eid al-Adha and the Jewish Yom Kippur as state holidays for Muslims and Jewish students in government schools |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Sabr |
| 12/19/03 at 07:55:39 |
| [slm] An article I came across.This editorial contains some interesting points worth noting. Please have a readFrance's Chirac is wrong to prohibit the head scarf Thursday, December 18, 2003 - Page A24 When a democracy tries to stop individuals from wearing their religious head coverings, it has ceased to trust its own citizens and has put the social engineers in charge. This is what has happened in France, where President Jacques Chirac said yesterday he accepts the recommendation of a government-appointed panel to bar individuals from wearing religious coverings such as head scarves or yarmulkes, and symbols such as large crosses, in schools and other public institutions. The plan is doomed to fail, as social engineering usually is, because it is based on wishful thinking rather than on basic truths about human beings. Human nature demands expression, including religious expression, and no government, whether a democracy or a tyranny, can succeed in legislating that demand out of existence. Trying to do so will breed alienation, out of which will come more extreme forms of expression. A head scarf is not a terrorist's bomb. The limits France is trying to impose on expression go well beyond the principle that your freedom stops where it threatens mine. Earlier this month, French police closed down an Islamic daycare centre and a kindergarten program, fearing that they were spreading radicalism -- among toddlers. When police came, they found the proof: a three-year-old girl wearing a veil. France feels so threatened that the land of the Enlightenment has lost its reason. To President Chirac, the wearing of a head scarf is an act of "aggression." It seems the scarf embodies the otherness of France's five million Muslims, large numbers of whom live a separate existence in public-housing projects on the outskirts of Paris. It is this seeming otherness that France feels threatened by. Could it produce terrorism, of which France has had quite a bit of experience? Will it foment more and more virulent forms of anti-Semitism? Is the real threat something less tangible, some strain on the French social fabric, some challenge to France's idea of itself? It is all of those things. But France is not alone in facing challenges from immigration. Because of declining birth rates, a need for workers and desperate Third World populations on the move, most of the Western world is trying to cope with change. The example of Britain (where the wearing of head scarves is seen as nothing unusual) is instructive. There, race riots involving whites and Asians have erupted in several towns and cities, but the government has come to very different conclusions than has France. True, the British Home Secretary demanded that immigrants accept British norms, but by this he meant no genital mutilation, no forced marriages and an insistence that immigrants learn English. A framework of common values is crucial, and no democracy needs to shrink from that. But he also pressed for a more inclusive, pluralistic society, based on "an acceptance that we are never going to turn the clock back to what was perceived to be a dominant or monoculturalist view of nationality." Britain also explicitly pointed to Canada as a model of pluralism. For a variety of reasons, Canadian-style multiculturalism, which puts a premium on tolerance and accommodation, is riding high. By and large, Canada's cities are peaceful, the economy is thriving and the nation has a good deal of self-confidence. (In Canada, some high schools hire only female lifeguards for gym class so that observant Muslim girls will swim. In France, Mr. Chirac would prevent Muslim women from rejecting a male doctor.) The important point for France is that a nation's plural character is rooted in the individual human identity, which is also plural, as Pierre Trudeau pointed out in 1971 when he announced the policy of "multiculturalism within a bilingual framework." "National unity, if it is to mean anything in the deeply personal sense, must be founded on confidence in one's own individual identity," he said. "Out of this can grow respect for that of others and a willingness to share ideas, attitudes and assumptions." As Canada has discovered, multiculturalism need not mean separateness. Over time, a mixing occurs, a tossed-salad effect. Acceptance of difference is a crucial ingredient. But France wishes to impose a dress code on its citizens, which is the same as saying that there is only one way to be French. President Chirac's words are pure sophistry. He stresses the need to preserve secularism not as an end in itself but because it "plays a crucial role in social harmony and cohesion," and to achieve harmony he would require that certain people give up a basic form of expression. This is harmony at the point of a legal bayonet. Though France's proposal extends only to public institutions, it has wider ramifications. Imagine the powerful message sent to all of France by the proposed ban. The Muslim in her head scarf, the Jew in his yarmulke and the Christian with a large cross (will police carry a measuring tape?) will in effect be barred from the public square. Even the private exercise of religious freedom will come to seem anti-French. To amble down the street in a head scarf or yarmulke will be to forsake French norms. Yes, there are risks in free expression. Risk is a condition of living in freedom. Democracies are those countries that trust their citizens enough -- or rather, whose citizens trust one another enough -- to accept those risks. France's proposed ban reflects a loss of confidence in its institutions, in its citizens and in democracy itself. SOURCE: http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20031218/EFRANCE18/Comment/Idx |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| siddiqui |
| 12/19/03 at 08:13:53 |
| [slm] Reminds me of Saudi Arabia imposing an abaya / covering of the head and banning public eating during ramadhan among NON MUSLIMS. Inaha Allah this is a time for retrospection , strengthening of the ummah world wide and esp in France and the development of the Muslim educational system, though it is sad our young ones have to bear the sacrifise [wlm] |
| 12/19/03 at 10:08:32 |
| siddiqui |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| bhaloo |
| 12/19/03 at 08:52:52 |
| [slm] [quote author=siddiqui link=board=ummah;num=1071758288;start=10#15 date=12/19/03 at 08:13:53] [slm] Reminds me of Saudi Arabia imposing an abaya / covering of the head and banning public eating during ramadhan among NON MUSLIMS. [/quote] I don't see anything wrong with that, I think its great they do that, insha'Allah other "Muslim" countries do this. Imagine you are a Muslim walking the streets doing some shopping and some dude is eating a kabob, it'll make you hungry, especially if the fasting day is long and in the summer. I think its common courtesy. And imposing hijab in a Muslim country is great, yes, the men are supposed to lower their gaze, and with all temptations removed it helps. Right? :) |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| siddiqui |
| 12/19/03 at 09:27:05 |
| [quote] I don't see anything wrong with that, I think its great they do that, insha'Allah other "Muslim" countries do this. Imagine you are a Muslim walking the streets doing some shopping and some dude is eating a kabob, it'll make you hungry, especially if the fasting day is long and in the summer. I think its common courtesy. And imposing hijab in a Muslim country is great, yes, the men are supposed to lower their gaze, and with all temptations removed it helps. Right? [/quote] Then why lament about the injustice in France for if one applies the same analogy as above,The french are doing right ,shoving down their ideaology down some one else's throat saying it is 'common courtsey' to be like the french when in france and if one cant be 'courteous' we will force you by law [quote] men are supposed to lower their gaze, and with all temptations removed it helps. Right? [/quote] Hum bhi lahoo laga ke shaheedon mein shaamil hogaye? I thought it was the other way round men should lower their gazes despite temptations On a lighter note any plans of giving up french fries or french toast ;) [wlm] |
| 12/19/03 at 10:06:53 |
| siddiqui |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Fozia |
| 12/19/03 at 09:43:24 |
| [quote author=siddiqui link=board=ummah;num=1071758288;start=10#17 date=12/19/03 at 09:27:05] On a lighter note any plans of giving up french fries or french toast ;) [wlm] [/quote] [slm] Dunno what you mean I only eat Islamic fries and Islamic toast.... ::) Wassalaam |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| MIT |
| 12/19/03 at 10:08:37 |
| [quote author=siddiqui link=board=ummah;num=1071758288;start=10#17 date=12/19/03 at 09:27:05] Then why lament about the injustice in France for if one applies the same analogy as above,The french are doing right ,shoving down their ideaology down some one else's throat saying it is 'common courtsey' to be like the french when in france and if one cant be 'courteous' we will force you by law. [/quote] as-salaamu alaikum I think the issue is that the French proclaim freedom of expression, liberty for all and all that stuff, yet on the other hand have excluded one minority group's from this. So they're saying one thing and doing another. |
| NS |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| ltcorpest2 |
| 12/19/03 at 12:03:54 |
| actually, it is not one minority that is excluded. It is anyone who cares enough about their religion as to honor it. Religion is the biggest foe of socialism and social enginerring since it is a godless based system where freedom of expression is only for those who tear down the social fabric or who do not derive their meaning from an absolute source. |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Ayla_A |
| 12/19/03 at 13:55:10 |
| [slm] Bhaloo wrote [quote]I don't see anything wrong with that, I think its great they do that, insha'Allah other "Muslim" countries do this. Imagine you are a Muslim walking the streets doing some shopping and some dude is eating a kabob, it'll make you hungry, especially if the fasting day is long and in the summer. I think its common courtesy. And imposing hijab in a Muslim country is great, yes, the men are supposed to lower their gaze, and with all temptations removed it helps. Right?[/quote] Imagine you are a muslim, working all day, around co-workers that are eating and drinking? There is no compulsion in Religion, and I cannot force my beliefs on others. I manage to fast all the day without restricting myself to a little box around me so that I might not have the temptation of food? I have always thought that ramadan in an islamic country would be so easy compaired to fasting here. Most places close early during ramandan or work split shifts ao that you can go sleep for a good part of the afternoon, you don't have to see other people eating or drinking. As for the hijab ban, has the law been passed or was he just saying he agrees with that? [wlm] Ayla_A |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| deenb4dunya |
| 12/19/03 at 19:07:58 |
| Assalamu Alaikum, [quote]What's going on whose next? Germany? Britain? Amerikkka? i don't really understand the silence though? gosh i feel like the world's masses have turned into meek sheep being slowly led to the slaughter houses... [/quote] Maybe the West is united on this ... they're just 'testing' the waters in France to see how strong the reaction of the Muslims will be... :( :'( Wassalamu Aaikum, Mujahada [aka Deen] |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| ltcorpest2 |
| 12/19/03 at 19:22:09 |
| united...with france? i don't think so. I think some of you are missing something here. They also are trying to ban the yamulka and crosses. I do not think that has anything to do with muslims as far as i know. And back to France again. As far as testing the waters. If France does something then i am sure we would do the opposite. and my apologies to all the french on here. I do not see any americans worried about wearing the Hijab by muslims. |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Maliha |
| 12/20/03 at 06:23:46 |
| [quote author=mike link=board=ummah;num=1071758288;start=20#23 date=12/19/03 at 19:22:09]united...with france? i don't think so. I think some of you are missing something here. They also are trying to ban the yamulka and crosses. I do not think that has anything to do with muslims as far as i know. [/quote] Mike interesting you said that...here's a quote from WashingtonPost: "Asked why Jewish organizations or Catholics were not protesting a ban that affects them as well, Moisi replied, "It is really a law against Muslim fundamentalists. But in order to hide that, you had to apply the law to Jews who wear [yarmulkes] and Christians who wear large crosses. The Jews are very prudent. They realize it is a law to protect them from the Muslims." " Check out the rest of the article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16370-2003Dec19.html The tile of today's front pages: French Muslims Offer Little Opposition to Head Scarf Ban In that same article they had French Muslims claim, its all good...religion is "private" etc etc. On top of that the "grand" sheikh of azhar said "they can pass whatever laws they want"... I don't understand?!!! These people are very clearly against Islam...this is not just "secularist" ideology, for the other religious symbols are just that Symbols!!! Islam is a way of life...you take the hijab off a someone and you have clearly violated the command of Allah to bow down to chirac and his cronies. Mike, americans right now are scared of the most nonsensical illusionary monsters they have created in their heads...listen to any random "intelligent" program and observe the callers responses??! It's really scary. With the amount of manufactured hysteria, i wouldn't be surprised if a similar law was passed...i mean after all the Patriot act was passed wasn't it??! Legitimate POW's and random innocent people are languishing in jails aren't they??! Civil rights are being constantly eroded? spying is on an all time high? Funding cut off from all the awesome programs and real needs to be funnelled to defense of Bush and his cronies...man, a lot of very "un" american things are going on..i don't see too many americans perturbed.. ::) siddiqui i am shocked you are comparing a visitor to saudi (cuz its the only country that actually makes people cover...as of "now")..and the situation in France. They are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. The question is what is Reality? is Hijab/being Modest the natural state of a woman? What happens when society disregards that? What happens when we allow little teenagers to dress like exotic dancers? I mean seriously..on a societal level the implications of too much exposure is resulting in real problems..just recently NPR featured a program saying men have mad issues getting attracted to women, becuz they have seen it all...giving rise to the viagra, pornography and God knows what else industry. It is sick! To compare a society that is trying to maintain a level of morality (albeit superficial and Saudi is NOT the perfect example of anything!)...and one that is deliberately stripping the woman of her dignity..Muslim woman at that...You see a similarity there?! Sometimes i feel like i am living thru' un real reality, and wonder what exactly would happen when we are all forced to wake up?! [wlm] |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| siddiqui |
| 12/20/03 at 10:12:19 |
| [slm] [quote] siddiqui i am shocked you are comparing a visitor to saudi (cuz its the only country that actually makes people cover...as of "now")..and the situation in France. [quote] Ever asked a non muslim how they feel being forced to wear a hijab? Not saying what French did were correct either You cant force a person to forsake the religion If true Islamic change has to come it has to come through justice,love,by setting a good example and by dawah using the best and most kindest means Now people might say is he talking about huddud laws? I say no because that kicks in when some one elses is rights are being infringed and thats a diffrent ball game [wlm] |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| BroHanif |
| 12/20/03 at 10:23:31 |
| Salaams, Someone could always invent a religion called Mid Riff and Bums. All women of this religion wear tight clothing, see through tops, show their mid riff, and whatever else. The maij messiah of the day would be Britney, Shakira and the gazillions of other scantily clad women. Readily diciples are available on every prime time tv channel from CNN, Playboy to MTV to pollute your mind. Anyway don't think that this law happened over night it took time and some planning. Who knows.. it was years in the doing, question is how many Muslims took part in actually saying what hijaab is or worked at the govt level to air their rights or fears? a case of being reactive again? or what... madz world. Salaams Hanif p.s. I've now started my own fund to buy my island in the deep south sea anyone who wants to join me in my utopian dream please send me your $$$ or £££ or rupees or whatever so I can get out of this tyranical and hypocritcal Europe. |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Maliha |
| 12/20/03 at 11:01:59 |
| [slm] Bro hanif someone already invented that religion of midrif and bums its called secularism, and we are living amidst its mini gods and idols right now ::) actually siddique, the few testimonies i have heard of non muslims wearing hijab have been amazingly positive... they all talk of how protected they felt, how intrinsically special etc. Funny enough though, now that i think of it, Saudi "muttawa's" would actually *not* harrass you if you are from their greater Lord and savior, Amerikkka. I knew people who would *not* cover and then speak in perfect "american" accent and they would let them go. I find it ironic, that a law has been passed to strip our precious Muslimas off their hijabs and we are wrangling over whether a non Muslim has the right to *not* cover ???!! Forgive me i must be too dumb to see the correlation ::) tis a telling sign of our times.... [wlm] |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| jannah |
| 12/20/03 at 12:24:21 |
| [wlm] I was thinking about this last night and I came to the conclusion that I don't think you can compare Saudi's laws with France's new one. First of all Saudi law says that all non-Muslim women have to wear an abaya. They do not not have to cover their hair. Muslims have to wear full hijab. Second they cannot eat in public during Ramadan. In fact no one can. These laws allow for the fact that there are non-Muslims working and living in Saudi and are part of the society. These are not things that are unduly harsh or go against a person's personal beliefs. It's only polite that you cover yourself in a Muslim society and don't eat in public when everyone else is fasting! This balances other people's rights and the rights of society. French law is trying to as Mike mentioned erase all vestiges of personal faith alltogether, regardless of religion, perhaps developing a new faith as Maliha mentioned Secularism. They are imposing a law that goes against a major tenet of Islam. It's like telling women here they have to go to school in their bras! That's not being polite and that's not accomodating other faiths. This is not balancing the rights of people and the right of society. As for the US, I too doubt anyone could pass a law like this here, but you know there are other far easier ways to get women not to wear hijab. |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Sparrow |
| 12/20/03 at 15:12:49 |
| Hi All: From the non-muslim chica corner, I will say that I do not mind wearing hijab/abaya when I am in Saudi. To me it's kind of interesting. Plus it's the law. If I don't want to do it I can not go there. Don't know any mattowa who are hesitant to bug Western/American women though. Most of the Western women I know in Saudi have had some run in or another with a mattowa, usually if their headscarf is askew or something like that. I also don't know of any women who leave their compounds uncovered, at least in Riyadh. May be different near Jeddah or Daharan. Peace, Sparrow |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| ltcorpest2 |
| 12/20/03 at 16:29:00 |
| kinda an interesting point sparrow. man made laws and when are we compelled by or religion not to follow them. I guess it is a huge topic. |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| UmmWafi |
| 12/21/03 at 12:40:35 |
| [slm] Surah al-Faatihah ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Indeed Allah SWT is All Seeing and All Knowing. In His Grace and Mercy, we will find our salvation. In the struggle between human laws and Divine Laws, there can only be one outcome. Allahu Akbar. Wassalam. |
| 12/21/03 at 12:41:53 |
| UmmWafi |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Matheerah |
| 12/21/03 at 13:23:27 |
| [slm] As the Prophet (s.a.w) once mentioned: "A time shall come when to hold onto one sunnah will be like holding onto a piece of hot coal" |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Anonymous |
| 12/24/03 at 05:22:07 |
| as salamu alaikum In response to Jannah's comment about Muslims 'assimilating' in France. With all due respect Muslims should not 'assimilate' in France, or anywhere else in the non-Muslim world. as·sim·i·late v. as·sim·i·lat·ed, as·sim·i·lat·ing, as·sim·i·lates v. tr. 1. Physiology. a)To consume and incorporate (nutrients) into the body after digestion. b)To transform (food) into living tissue by the process of anabolism; metabolize constructively. 2. To incorporate and absorb into the mind: assimilate knowledge. 3. To make similar; cause to resemble. 4. Linguistics. To alter (a sound) by assimilation. 5. To absorb (immigrants or a culturally distinct group) into the prevailing culture. Muslims do not submit to 'incorporation' or 'absorbtion' or efforts to make them 'similar' or to cause them to 'resemble' a typical non-Muslim of that society. Muslims do not submit to their surroundings in compromise to their religion - they control what they can around them, or attempt to strive to do what they can to raise any burdens that would cause them to disobey Allaah. In this case if measures cannot be taken to allow Muslim women to observe the Hijab then the resulting course of action is clear for those who are capable: Hijrah. “Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say (to them): In what (condition) were you? They reply: We were weak and oppressed on the earth. They (angels) say: Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein? Such men will find their abode in Hell what an evil destination! Except the weak ones among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan, nor are they able to direct their way. These are they whom Allah is likely to forgive them, and Allah is Ever Oft Pardoning, Oft-Forgiving.” [Suratun-Nisa‘ 4:97-99] wa salamu alaikum |
| Re: F&#$$&@@$*&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| jannah |
| 12/24/03 at 05:31:43 |
| [wlm] whoaaaaa dere partner... i didn't say muslims should assimilate!! jeeez? you read my quote completely wrong... |
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board |