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The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Career Wo
jannah
12/16/03 at 06:35:12
How Hard Can It Be? The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Career Women Over 25 By Munira Lekovic Ezzeldine My husband and I recently tried to match-make a couple of our friends. Omar began telling his friend about a really nice woman we knew at 33, successful, beautiful. His first response was, "So, what's wrong with her? Why is she 33 and not married?" Looking at the 30-year-old man before me, my first thought was, "I could ask you the same thing." However, the reality set in that there's a double standard when it comes to the issue of age and marriage. Many Muslim women are successful lawyers, doctors, professors and journalists. They are outspoken and active in their Muslim and non-Muslim communities. They are intelligent and beautiful, and they are unmarried. The same women who are ambitious and focused on their academic and professional success are finding it difficult to find a suitable spouse. Twenty years ago, as young Muslim boys and girls were being raised in the U.S., they were encouraged to excel academically and professionally. Parents placed a huge emphasis on education and hard work for both boys and girls. And apparently, they were taken seriously. Girls excelled and never felt they could not attain an education or a profession. They worked hard and succeeded as their parents had encouraged all those years. Now, these same women are in their twenties and thirties and the same parents are now pressuring them to get married. Are women to blame for being ambitious and educated? Apparently so. Women seem to be penalized for their ambition. Once a young woman passes the age of 25 and remains single, she is considered "old" and often finds it difficult to find a suitable spouse. Suddenly, others tell her that she has become too picky and her expectations of a husband are unrealistic and that she should hurry up and get married already. "There are some of us who went to college and are successful in our careers and we are not on a search and destroy mission to get married," says Suhad Obeidi, a 39-year-old former banking manager with an M.B.A. The reality is that Muslim women have worked hard for their education and careers and they will not give it all up in order to get married. In recent decades, men have also become highly educated and progressive, and have even fought for women's rights and the elevation of women in Islam. However, while these men are impressed with a successful and active woman, they do not consider her "marriage material." Despite the elevation of women, many men have maintained traditional ideas as to the type of wife they seek. After all, they do not see anything wrong with the way their mother was. Consciously or subconsciously, many men seek a wife who will fulfill the traditional role of a wife and mother and one who will maintain a traditional home life. She should be educated, but she should also be willing to put her education and career on a shelf while raising a family. These women in their late twenties and early thirties appear too established in their career and lifestyle and therefore, more difficult to marry because they will not fall into this traditional role. Many American Muslim women want to be wives and mothers while at the same time be respected for their profession. "One big problem is that, rather than embrace her ambition and success, men simply tolerate it and expect something in return," says Nagwa Ibrahim, a 25-year-old activist seeking a career as a human and civil rights lawyer. Current expectations of marriage have changed for women and become more aligned with the examples of women during Prophet Muhammad's lifetime. The Prophet's first wife, Khadija, was an established career woman who was 15 years older than her husband. Khadija was a very confident and successful woman who actually proposed to the 24-year-old Muhammad. Yet, the Prophet was not intimidated by her nor found her "unmarriageable." They maintained a strong marriage as she continued to be a businesswoman, as well as wife and mother. Prophet Muhammad and Khadija were married for 28 years, the longest of all his marriages. The year that Khadija died was also referred to as the Year of Mourning by Prophet Muhammad. Many Muslim women seek not to compete with men, but rather to establish a partnership with their spouse. Ultimately, these women want to be cherished and loved in the same way that the Prophet loved Khadija. This type of partnership in marriage can only exist when both people are accepting and respectful of one another's ambitions and priorities in life. Nagwa Ibrahim feels that men have succumbed to negative cultural stereotypes that are contrary to Islam when selecting a spouse. "We (Muslim women) are the way we are because we are trying to be good Muslims," she says. Thus, a partnership in marriage can only be developed when men and women really follow the principles of Islam and learn to communicate their expectations of marriage as well as be understanding of one another. Communication is vital to any successful marriage, but now more than ever, women must feel comfortable in expressing their expectations of marriage to a potential spouse and in return feel that they are being understood, respected and encouraged. This evolution will happen once we see more modern examples of successful Muslim men and women getting married and further benefiting society by their union. Educated Muslim men and woman will only improve our Muslim communities by expecting the best from everyone, be they men or woman. Beginning in the homes, parents need to nurture their children by encouraging them that they can have both worlds and that they can be successful in their career and marriage. Muslim women can have a huge impact on the future by modeling the multi-faceted woman of Islam to their children. Therefore, when their daughters grow up, they will aspire to be women of excellence and ambition. Additionally, when their sons become men, their expectations and views of a suitable wife will include a partnership with an intelligent and successful Muslim woman. With further education and communication, men and women can understand and respect one another's roles in society and in the home, which will ultimately benefit future generations of Muslims. Munira Lekovic Ezzeldine is the author of Before the Wedding: 150 Questions for Muslims to Ask Before Getting Married.

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
BroHanif
12/16/03 at 15:06:07
Salaams, [quote]The reality is that Muslim women have worked hard for their education and careers and they will not give it all up in order to get married. [/quote] Interesting, say if you were a Muslim Professional(no not the website!) like many of you are, would you get married to a hobo from Pakistan/India? Or continue to wait for the knight on a camel in the US of A or rainy Angland? By the way a hobo from Pakistan means someone who is educated but resides in South Asia and not in the West. You could say someone like Nomi. Salaams Hanif p.s Don't you just love these marrige threads, where would our forums be without em.
NS

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
jaihoon
12/16/03 at 15:09:42
[quote author=jannah link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=0#0 date=12/16/03 at 06:35:12] Many Muslim women are successful lawyers, doctors, professors and journalists. They are outspoken and active in their Muslim and non-Muslim communities. They are intelligent and beautiful, and they are unmarried. The same women who are ambitious and focused on their academic and professional success are finding it difficult to find a suitable spouse. [/quote] hmmm... I too have wondered the same. It's like, as the wise ppl say, deen and duniya never goes well together.  ;)

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
lala
12/16/03 at 15:16:27
[slm] honestly, i wouldnt marry from outside the US ... no offence meant to anyone:)  Without sounding too ignorant but how does one know its not about the greencard? Hmm i'm not sure why else i wouldnt? I dont want to live in another country thats one more... peace

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
jannah
12/16/03 at 16:55:03
[wlm] [quote]deen and duniya never goes well together.  [/quote] bro you totally missed the point of the article!! Which is the reason they are not married is that men do not want to marry women who are successful professionals!!!
12/16/03 at 17:31:09
jannah

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
BroHanif
12/16/03 at 17:23:27
Salaams, I think we are making the issue harder than it is, there are millions of Muslim Professionals worldwide and due to our cultures and background many of us would find compatability overseas. We need to network with other like minded people otherwise the cream of our crop are gonna lose out big time. More people are becoming professionals, educated not just to degree standard but MBA and Doctorates will be the norm in the years to come. Another point is I find those with good Islamic conduct many of them make a big impact on their workplaces as well, thereby getting promotion or being recognised as someone who produces results not a monkey. Now say if we think our career is IT or education is IT where will our society go?. Unmarried talented, beautiful, professional Muslimahs??? Seriously we need to think of our options if we can't get married in the States or UK perhaps we should seek alternatives. That goes for guys as well. There are suitable spouses its just that we aint looking... Marrige and kids are bliss as they say. Salaams, Hanif
12/17/03 at 03:25:06
BroHanif

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
faith
12/16/03 at 21:54:20
[slm] i think the brothers are really missing the point.  the point of the article is that the brothers are intimidated by sisters who are educated and have a career.   I admit I am one of those career women over 25, and single.  And no, I dont live in the US or UK, and yet, there are many women in my country facing who are single with careers.  And no, its not that we, single career women, place career before marriage, and for push men aside.    And no, we dont want to marry people from abroad and relocate, leaving behind our families - mom, dad, siblings, grandparents, uncles, aunties, nephews, nieces, cousins, whom we trust and love.   From personal experiences, and observations, men expect women not to be on the same par as them, as far as intellectually and economically concerned.  Eg. if he is a manager level, he will only look for executives - at most, and not consider another manager.   Personally, I have gone through a few rounds of introduction, and when asked what I do, I keep it simple and not tell people of my job position.   But once they find out later on, they cool off a lot.  Or another bunch of men, who prefers career women so that they will get the material benefits from you - and this they will tell you outright, sooner or later. Is it our fault that if we fail to get married by 25, we are passed the "sell-by date"?  Must we strive to get married first before getting an education in order to get men to marry us?  Or do you wish us to quit our jobs and sit at home, so that a man may come by and propose? And if you scoff at us, career women, for having a career instead of a husband , then you are also faulting God for giving us this Rizq.   Truly, I have been blessed in that respect, as Allah has kept giving me opportunities, and I dont wish to complain.   I do wish to get married, and opt for a slower pace of life, being a mum and wife, instead of a career woman, but then, is there a man out there who is not intimidated by my education and career, nor expecting me to sustain his material needs instead?   After all, instead the choice of a husband an important factor to ponder on?  Isn't the husband the person a wife must obey, sleep with him at his request, bear his children, provide a wife with a house, clothing, and food? If a wife is to do all the above, it is only necessary that she ensures that the prospective husband is more knowledgable than she (in order to obey his words), capable of providing a living, and of  good character and deen for her and her children.   I believe these are just reasonable requests by us women. :-)

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Nomi
12/17/03 at 00:04:00
[slm] [quote author=lala link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=0#3 date=12/16/03 at 15:16:27] honestly, i wouldnt marry from outside the US ... no offence meant to anyone:)  Without sounding too ignorant but how does one know its not about the greencard? Hmm i'm not sure why else i wouldnt? [/quote] There are humble ppl like me out there who have a tiny weeney ego problem, i wanted to say it in threads months back but didn't, here is one opportunity so i'll shoot. Thing is, many ppl i know (myself included) wont ever marry someone who holds a greencard coz we dont want to be thought of as ppl who married just to get nationality of some piece of land. Yes, its an ego thing.... But i support BroHanif's view, you can always import a spouse, i have a couple of friends who are well educated, skilled, have good islamic values (arn't as 'backward' as me) and are really handsome but unfortunately they arn't bearded! And females get imported all the time, dont they! [slm] Desi with tiny weeney ego problemo
12/17/03 at 01:29:25
Nomi

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Nomi
12/17/03 at 01:30:24
[quote author=lala link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=0#3 date=12/16/03 at 15:16:27] honestly, i wouldnt marry from outside the US ... no offence meant to anyone:) Without sounding too ignorant but how does one know its not about the greencard? Hmm i'm not sure why else i wouldnt? [/quote] Sorry guys, been listening too much on this topic and been adding too less (and it might put a damper on broHanif's efforts) ..... Call it bragging call it anything but among the people i referred to are those who probly are too handsome for many of 'greencard holder' sisters reading this, so as looks sometimes matter (we dont want to marry too ugly girls u know (give me a five bro 'brother' and uncle 'hyper' ... "yeh baat") ) so with desi boys who look smart in no matter what they wear, u 'greencard holders' dont have a chance. Alhamdulillah, many of us know how to live with our heads up HIGH. And please pray that i dont face some accident and lose an arm or a leg or end up having distorted face for what i've said. May Allah protect us all, ameen [slm] [s]should go get some chilled water, was just an attack of old viruses. Water works as Norton u know[/s]
12/17/03 at 01:31:16
Nomi

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
jannah
12/17/03 at 03:03:33
[slm] Well let's get back on topic... the premise of the article is that men are too scared/afraid/wary to marry a woman who is educated/successfull. So without getting into the reasons... do people think this is true... and if so what the heck are we supposed to do about it?? To me I see generations of uneducated women bringing up more uneducated women (so they can get married) and the educated one's marrying non-religious or even non-muslims because muslim guys just aren't able to be on the level with them?!

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
BroHanif
12/17/03 at 03:22:43
Salaams, Jannah said [quote]the premise of the article is that men are too scared/afraid/wary to marry a woman who is educated/successfull and the educated one's marrying non-religious or even non-muslims because muslim guys just aren't able to be on the level with them?![/quote] Talk about lowering the standards a bit, Astagfirullah. If they marrry someone whos not Muslim I don't see how they are an educated Islamic Professional. More of a sellout, they want to get married so much but they get married to a ghura??? Sorry forgive me while I have a rant but that is just simple nonsense. All the good guys are gone and there are none left??? Please. As I said earlier we need to look at the global problem that is happening in our cmnty don't just restrict yourself to the US and UK. Why can't we look in other places for example, Singapore, Indonesia for intellectual Muslims???. Are we now saying that all guys are afraid to getting married successfull Muslimahs????. Nomi you need to be a little modest bro. Having Salman Khan looks but not being able to add 2+2 together may not get you very far. *ps I know this is not you* Salaams Hanif
NS
12/17/03 at 03:28:26
BroHanif

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Barr
12/17/03 at 06:49:00
[wlm] [quote]Well let's get back on topic... the premise of the article is that men are too scared/afraid/wary to marry a woman who is educated/successfull. So without getting into the reasons... do people think this is true... [/quote] Hate to break this... but yes, I do feel that this phenomena is real. I hv interviewed some brothers on this issue, and they hv mentioned some reservations by brothers about "Power sisters". These "Power sisters" are characterised as highly educated (academically - ie degree and above), Islamically knowledgable, outspoken and active in their communities. However, they exude a type of "arrogance" when they speak to brothers. Hence, they feel that these sisters would be difficult to find a spouse due to this "arrogance", and are "left on the shelf". They somehow, do agree that such perception that these brothers have may be due to their own ego etc. and they also agree on the possibility of intimidation as a reason for these sisters to remain unmarried. However, their main contention was that these "power sisters" have an "attitude" problem, rather than brothers being intimidated by them. This is just what I found in my short interview. It is not significant enough to represent a trend in the male muslim population. But I would agree that such do exist. How large this phenomena requires more research. Y? I think this was much discussed previously in many older threads on the power-play between men and women in a marriage etc. So how are we gonna tackle them? I don't know. - Perhaps with more good examples, of good marriages and skills given to both men and women, to help communicate and understand each other. - Be more reflective and retrospective on our own character. Do we exude characteristics that constitutes bad adab, or maybe, a loss in feminity that caused brothers to stay away? - Education on brothers and sisters on what really matters when one looks for a spouse. And I think its important that brothers realise that no matter how highly educated Muslim sisters are, how Islamically knowledgable or active we are in society, we are still Muslim women. :I *sigh* ... ... ... I just came across a hadith by the Nabi Muhammad (saw) who said that when ALlah  wants good for a person of a position (ie. a leader), He would bring on a good counsellor, who will remind him of Allah when he forgets and who will assist him when he remembers. (I will give the exact hadith later, inshaAllah) In this context, lets look for good counsellors, when we will be leaders, when we will be in a position of power, and for brothers... when you will become husbands and fathers and be the head of the family. And if the sister is highly educated, Islamically knowledgable, and active in society who has good akhlaq, who can give you good advice and counsel, then it'll be a big loss if such a sister is given up, because maybe, she's pretty outspoken and earns more than you. Just don't get entangled in the false perception of power play. Allahua'lam. [quote]and the educated one's marrying non-religious or even non-muslims because muslim guys just aren't able to be on the level with them?! [/quote] This does happen... eventhough at face value, it does seem like a foolish thing to do. I know a sister scholar in Islam, who married a brother, who is described to have a low IQ. And when she was asked why didn't she marry someone who is on par with her and she asked who would marry a fat sister who is not getting any younger (she got married in her late 20s or early 30s). But I guess, like men, women have needs too. Allahua'lam
12/17/03 at 06:53:29
Barr

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
timbuktu
12/17/03 at 07:07:32
[slm] hate to break this, when i was an eligible bachelor, i would have loved to find & marry a "power sister". as it is, i married one with a degree & profession who bacame a doctor only because her father said so. & i discovered this ages after the marriage. well, if muslim men cannot come to terms with intelligent & accomplished wives, maybe mothers should start training them better in childhood.

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
lala
12/17/03 at 10:25:01
[slm] Brother NOmi, I was in no way trying to disrespect non US folks..sheesh. I wasnt born here either and secondly I will not get into looks b/c a woman's beauty is beyond any handsome mans beauty!!!   :P But on this topic: YEs, many of us educated muslimas are marrying later. For myself If you dont express that you want to get married, then you wont get offers. Secondly, we should be open to marriage from any part of the world as long as you find that you are compatible with this other person. But that would take some work...it won't come overnight and it is hard to find compatibility with someone from across the globe. I have a friend who has a friend ....dude is educated and is single...over 26 yrs old..but wants a wife who wont work... Why is that? Because that would make him happy. Now, I dont know why men want that..but whatever makes them happy..makes them happy...you cant change that ..unless they are brought up differently. For us educated power women who want to get married- have patience and dont be too picky. Many muslimas are picky.... we're not all gonna find doctors/lawyers/engineers to marry. They are not all gonna be good looking-thats for sure... but look at the soul... this goes for guys also. So what if a woman works... at least if u get laid off someone will be able to pay the bills.  ;D i second u sis barr and bro timbuktu peace

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
muslimah853
12/17/03 at 13:51:37
[slm] Some men like to have a big family. The more aged your wife the more risky to have a lot of kids. Best to marry a young girl in that case. Maybe, but if you want to talk about following the sunnah of the Prophet,  [saw], he married a woman fifteen years his senior who bore him five children.  His youngest wife never bore him a child.  Just something to think about. 5. It is the man's obligation to earn a living for his family. He has no choice. Women freed by this constraint should be studying deen so that atleast someone in the family is an alim. This is a simple well known principle: division of labor. It is certainly not that simple.  Maintaining a house, particularly if you have children, is not leisurely work.  Women with small children are typically sleep deprived, up early and late, and don't have very many spare moments to themselves.  Simple things such as using the bathroom in peace or praying your salat uninterrupted are luxuries.  Very many women become depressed, spiritually and emotionally because they don't have any time for nurturing themselves.  Yes, it's a jihad, and it's not called a jihad for nothing...but just to point out, if one thinks that women who stay at home have all this time on their hands to study Islam...think again.  More often it's the exact opposite, unless they have a supportive husband and/or family. Another point, women are not superhuman.  If we are thinking that the entire burden of upholding and transmitting the deen lies on their shoulders, then we are making a terrible mistake.  This requires the effort of both partners, in spite of whatever duties they have, if you want an Islamic home all parties need to be striving to make this happen.  Sometimes the husband will feel weak or low in his iman, and will insha'allah derive support and energy from his wife, while sometimes it's the opposite.   Wives and mothers have needs too.  While earning a living is obviously an important task that a man must do for his family, no one wants a husband who does *only* that, or thinks that this is his only job while it's her job to keep the family afloat spiritually--or at least I wouldn't.  It's too much for one person.  And frankly, a man who only works and doesn't do anything to improve himself spiritually is--or eventually becomes--dead weight.   Regarding the original post---yes, it happens, though many men will not be upfront about admitting it.  I can't say all men, or even most, I've never done the research.  But it certainly does happen.  And complicating the issue for some sisters, is ethnicity.  Say a professional, older, practicing Muslimah who happens to be African American...she has to deal with additional strikes against her because a large portion of the eligible pool of men are not from her ethnicity--and either they (or their families) would never consent to such a marriage.  Someone mentioned going 'back home' for a spouse, well, a whole bunch of Muslimahs don't have a 'back home' to go to.  They don't have this family network because they came to Islam alone.  What for them?

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Muneerah134
12/17/03 at 14:27:49
Sister Muslimah's comments drew me out of my usual lurker status because while I wholeheartedly agree with all of her points I agree most with this one because has been my experience, as well as the experience of some of those in my circle: [quote author=muslimah853 link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=10#14 date=12/17/03 at 13:51:37] [slm] And complicating the issue for some sisters, is ethnicity.  Say a professional, older, practicing Muslimah who happens to be African American...she has to deal with additional strikes against her because a large portion of the eligible pool of men are not from her ethnicity--and either they (or their families) would never consent to such a marriage.  Someone mentioned going 'back home' for a spouse, well, a whole bunch of Muslimahs don't have a 'back home' to go to.  They don't have this family network because they came to Islam alone.  What for them? [/quote] I have single African American Muslim sisters who are lawyers, doctors, several PhDs etc., and it is difficult for them at times. MashaAllah, been there, done that... Muneerah
12/17/03 at 14:31:53
Muneerah134

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Nomi
12/18/03 at 00:34:25
[slm] [quote author=BroHanif link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=10#10 date=12/17/03 at 03:22:43]Nomi you need to be a little modest bro.[/quote] First off, my posts weren't solely targetted at sis lala but at all those ppl who generalized about poor FOBs in earlier marriage threads! Secondly, if you (any of you) generalize then be courageous enough to taste your own medicine... Again, its not targetted at one single person. That said, its sending out an impression that *power* to you "mainly" (not solely) comes from your skills, why arn't shaykhas been referred to here as *power sisters*??. Either ways... where are the female equivalent of Hamza Yusuf? of Muhammad Al Shareef? (US) Taqi Usmani? Tariq Jamil? (PK) Molana Saad? (IND) And as far as i know there are two PhDs here on the board... bro Asim Karim and Hyper.. where are female equivalents of them? I'm mentioning it coz probly sisters are thinking that men are lagging or something. About the questions asked later in the thread (opting for 'other' soulmates)... well it got a litle secular there and an equally secular reply will probly offend ppl. [slm] and peace
12/18/03 at 05:33:16
Nomi

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
faith
12/18/03 at 07:49:14
[slm] well brother nomi, we are not here to compare who is the most educated, most well paid, best career - that would tantamount to bragging.  Its really not necessary to say - best left that to just one's resume/cv.     but the fact is, around the world women are educated (with degrees and higher) and have careers equal to men.   and yet, these women, myself included are finding it difficult to get married for many reasons, but one reason is that women with careers make decisions every day, and are confident of themselves.  this is often misconstrued by men as arrogance or that women have attitude problems  because men prefers women who are meeker.   Setting aside the issue of race/ethnicity, the universal problem of women not marrying exist - in the secular world but more pronounced in the muslim world .    And to the question of femininity, I know many career women who are feminine in their manners, clothings, looks, and beautiful, and yet still single! I just came accross msn website about the singer Mary J Blidge getting married at 32.   I know she is not a muslim, or even a good example.  But her quote on her husband struck me as having found mr. right, is as follows: "He completes me in the areas that I'm weak in. He's an analytical brain. I'm a creative brain. We pray together. We read the Bible together," the 32-year-old singer is quoted on her Web site. "I've never seen a man who loves the Lord like he does. He loves his family. He's a good person. He makes me laugh." Essentially, that is what we sisters want in our men.  Someone who is complementary to us, be our strength when and where we are weak, and vice versa, have the same commitment in God and of good character.  If only there are brothers out there who are not intimidated by us career women.   sigh....

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Orange_Tree
12/18/03 at 07:59:39
[slm] I understand this issue but I think y'all need to come visit my circle of friends.  As far as my community is concerned finding a muslimah Doctor is akin to finding the holy grail!  the more lawyers, doctors, dentists the better.  Parents of single sons want to find a girl who is intelligent enuff for their son.  As a lowly Psych grad this is frustrating but I can't argue with it.  Also, the guys might want the girls to quit their jobs or education as soon as the wedding ring is put on but at least their job status gets them some interest. I really don't have any good answers to this problem except to say that it's a complex mix of snobbery, class issues, race issues, girls being too picky, guys being too demanding and anything else you care to throw in.   In a simple life deen wud be the only factor that counts but in reality... Oh, I can't remember who said that girls should look for soul not great looks.  I think that is true in principle but again reality pervails and it's not so easy saying yes to someone you're not attracted to.  But that doesn't mean you shud say no, just think a bit harder and take some time to decide.   Oh, and the example of the Prophet [saw] marrying Khadija is soooo hard to put across to parents.  The general consensus among my folks and other folks is that the girl shud be younger than the guy.  Trying to sway that opinion cud take years!

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Fozia
12/18/03 at 08:51:57
[slm] Haven't read the entire thread will do later. But have to stick my oar in... Personally I think there's something lacking in the way our Br.'s have been bought up, Ummi (mine for one) will not have a word said against my Br. never mind the fact that the critic is daddy. Then when these Br.'s go out in the real world and meet a muslimah who doesn't hesitate to point out that no Br. you are not quite correct in that, Br's see arrogant Sr's. Again this is just my opinion based on my limited observation. To those who think Sr's don't marry outside USA and England. I did I married a desi guy, my dad set the standard, after deen, he had to be educated up to the same level as me or more, and he had to be a non-smoker.... But perhaps I'm a minority here too, I know for a fact my hubby did not marry me merely on the basis of my citizenship, he turned down a few american and english girls first, so he did have a criteria apart from where she lived. On the other hand it's no big deal for me, I didn't marry for love, on a practical level as long as he's a good Muslim that's fine with me, I also said I would continue to work once married he agreed to it... Sometimes I think we forget that the feelings we have are also shared by our partners. I want to be loved and respected, allowed to have a life outside these four walls, and I'd say my husband wants the same thing. I don't get mad when he wants to go out with friends, he doesn't get mad when I want to go to work, I'd suffocate if I couldn't have that I think. We understand that so long as levels of Islamic decorum are maintained at all times, nothing is beyond our reach... Wassalaam

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
faith
12/18/03 at 20:21:47
[slm] i forgot to mention this earlier, this is w.r.t br. nomi's question on whether lady da'iees are considered "power women". my answer to that would be yes, they are, especially if they are knowledgeable in the quran, sunnah and can relate this easily and in a non-threatening manners to their audience.   to me, the ultimate definition of a power woman, is none other than my lady quranic tafseer teacher, who is well known in my country.  She is an egyptian lady married to a local, and speaks arabic, english, malay.  She is a dentist by profession, teaches dentistry at university, married with kids, and teaches tafseer! Masha'alllah, how blessed she is, having knowledge of the dunya and akhirah.  Now that her kids have grown up, she no longer practices dentistry, but travels around the country to give da'wah.   that is the ultimate power lady!!  :-)

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
timbuktu
12/18/03 at 22:09:17
[slm] Dr Farhat Hashmi, is another dai`yah. bro Nomi, we have been left behind. Girls excel at school, at work, & in dawah. of course, there are occassional PhD's, but most of them become unworldly & unfit for society. time the task of dai`yah was left to the women. :) I mentioned earlier that on IOL discussion forum, the really learned, articulate & able to think & argue logically were muslim women who are practicing medical doctors. The men are are either belligerant, or unable to apply logic, or simply copypaste types. Hats off to power Muslimahs!
12/18/03 at 22:17:27
timbuktu

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
paula
12/19/03 at 01:25:22
[slm] (a very irrelevant post) [quote]So, i recall that there was a research that 80% character of a child is already developed when s/he reaches 3-4 years. [/quote] I'm impressed... alot of people I know do not realize that fact... let alone the male population.... than has to say something..... smile (ok... very sorry...  I'll leave the thread again now... just wanted to back the research there ... I always found that to be a very interesting fact... those first years are indeed very important & very foundational) [wlm]

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Dazed
12/19/03 at 01:56:21
[slm] Wow, this is a really good topic and there are so many replies so my opinion is not going to be in any particular order... 1) I have to say this first. About the whole green card thing. I don't think you can say that people who live over here would marry people just to get citizenship. In fact, I think a lot of people would be crazy to leave. Here in Karachi for example, educated people who work in these mulitnational companies mainatain a standard of living that is probably better then the owner of the company who lives in the US or UK. So it's not always about the green card...But sadly sometimes it is... When I was in the States I always said I would have to marry someone who was brought up in the West not because I was scared of greencard scams but because the mentality is totally different. I think a Muslim brother(revert or 'born into Islam) would understand my perspectives on thigs better then a guy from the East. Maybe I am over generalizing...And now that I am here I am kind of mixed, because I have met cousins who are extremely open-minded and educated. Anyhow someone said something about marrying a 'ghura.' Well, you know as a 'ghuri' what exactly is wrong with marrying one? It's really sterotypical to think that all 'ghuris' are not family minded or ect. And you know what else, there are A LOT of ghuri muslimas  :-) 2. Regarding the career minded muslimas. Well, I work now and will continue to do so while I start my BA program. Anyway, what really bothers me is when people earn degrees just for the sake of getting a good match. I mean parents here if their son is a MBA or degree holder then the girl HAS to be the same. Just for the sake of saying , "Oh, yes our bahu (daughter in law) is a blah blah." and then the girl will never work after marriage. And I think a lot of people do that. It's like if you didn't want to further your education after high school you couldn't find a husband. Because it seems brothers want to have a wife with the degree but only in name...then they want the wife to play the traditional stay at home role... Once again, I didn't mean to offend anyone, and I really am not Paki-bashing. I mean that would kind of be like bashing myself since I get my shanakti card next week  ;) [wlm] -Dazed  :-)

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Barr
12/19/03 at 02:33:11
[slm] :) W.r.t my previous post: Aishah reported the Prophet as saying “When God desires the good of someone in a position of power, he assigns to him an honest counsellor, one who reminds him of God’s word when he forgets it, and who assists him when he remembers it. And when he desires the opposite for anyone, he gives him an evil counsellor,one who does not remind him when he forgets and does not assist him when he remembers” Sunan Abi Daud... quoted by Maulana Wahiduddin Khan in his book... "An Islamic Treasury of Virtues".

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
M.F.
12/19/03 at 07:42:14
Bismillah,  [slm] wa rahmatullah, Getting back to the very first posting, there is some truth to it, a lot of truth.  But I don't think it's so much a woman's education or activeness in the community that scares men off as much as - I'm sorry to say- her age.  Once you're past a certain age (I think it's older than 25 though, more like 28 or 30) that's it, your chances get pretty slim.   In fact, I think a lot of men today DO want to marry educated, active women.  The only thing is, by the time you complete a Masters or PhD you've reached the unmarriageable age.... i think that's what the dilemma is.  I think men admire "power Muslimahs" and would like to have them as wives, but again, I think it's the age thing that's a problem. Another problem is: what happens when the power Muslimah has a baby?  That might be a problem for men.  On the one hand, I think all men want the wife to raise the baby.  Thus when they think about their childrens' mother, they might not want to marry someone for whom they think it might be a problem, or they themselves may not want to constrain their active educated wives to the role of stay at home mother. wallahu a'lam.

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
bhaloo
12/19/03 at 08:44:30
[slm] Quite a few of the posts here seem really naive, and let's not turn this into a man bashing thread.  Men don't want to marry successful professional muslimahs? ??? Hahahahahahahahahah   :D   :D  :D   You've got to be kidding.  M.F. hit it on the head, the reason isn't because of being a successful woman, or having an education (maybe a few neanderthal men think like that, i doubt that's the case in the west at all) but its age.  Power Muslimahs?  That she is more intelligent then the guy, that's why she doesn't get married?  Let's get real here, that's not the reason. [quote] In fact, I think a lot of men today DO want to marry educated, active women.  The only thing is, by the time you complete a Masters or PhD you've reached the unmarriageable age.... i think that's what the dilemma is.  I think men admire "power Muslimahs" and would like to have them as wives, but again, I think it's the age thing that's a problem. [/quote] Exactly. An 18 year old girl and a 28 year old woman don't look the same.  Its a fact.   There was an article I read a year or two ago (maybe it was on here, I'll have to look for it and put it up), but they were going to some Arab countries and asking men what kind of woman they wanted, and these men admitted that they won't even consider a woman past 22, saying she was too old and in some of the countries the age was dropping to 20.  They won't consider any woman over 20.

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Barr
12/19/03 at 08:54:06
[slm] I'm sorry, but the situation is very real here in Singapore. And there's stats to prove that, and a whole bunch of graduate, active, single and devout Muslim sisters. And in Singapore, brothers don't usually have a hang-up with sisters older than 22  ::) Heck, it's a national problem.  :P

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
muslimah853
12/19/03 at 11:43:02
[slm] An 18 year old girl and a 28 year old woman don't look the same.  Its a fact. Maybe, as a rule, but if you ask me, that's just as neanderthal as being intimidated by a woman's level of education.  Particularly when you consider the fact that the same thing holds true for men.  Their bodies start to wrinkle and sag too.  Some lose their hair and sport a spare tire before they leave their mid twenties. Also, that doesn't account for the women who take care of themselves and/or look good for their age.  Al hamdulillah, the women in my family are good examples.  I am in my thirties with three children and routinely get mistaken for a teenager, masha'allah. I know that some brothers have this hangup.  But if you ask me it's just as bad as the other one.

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Fozia
12/19/03 at 12:55:15
[slm] I have to agree with Sr. Muslimah. A 28 year old may not look exactly like an 18 year old, however women age slower than men. My aunt married a man a decade younger than her, but you couldn't tell just be looking and she's well into her forties now. A few years back we went to Umrah, on the way out of the haram in Makkah one day we were stopped by an Arab, he said Salaam to my husband then gestured towards me and said... 'This is your daughter??'  ??? :o :D :-/   My husband managed a civil reply I'll give him that.   How old one looks depends rather on genes I think, my dad looks really young... Wassalaam
12/19/03 at 12:55:34
Fozia

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Nomi
12/19/03 at 23:52:02
[slm] ppl that Q? was really a sincere one, why do you always doubt a desis intentions ... heh Seriously, about that research which says that 80% of a child's character is already developed when s/he reaches 3-4 years in age. So the question to young working ladies was ... when both the parents are away for work from 8:30 am to 6:00 pm including drive time, dressing up etc, then how can we build a good nation while staying away from our children most of the time and giving them what, like 3-4 hours a day at the age where their character is being developed the most!!! [slm]
12/19/03 at 23:57:12
Nomi

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
jannah
12/20/03 at 05:33:04
[wlm] hmm it's interesting that ppl  jump to the conclusion that successful women will abandon their children when they are babies... perhaps the real reason brothers don't want to marry successful power women, they are not too sure of their committment to family!? (sometimes i get the feeling that some resentful guy spread a myth not to marry successful muslimahs cause they eat their babies!! lol) don't you think the mothers would like what is best for their child as well? and why do ppl think they'll be working 24/7 obsessed with their job.. what about all the alternatives like working part time or having extended family help, etc etc... seems people think there are only two choices... housewife or career woman anyone see Mona Lisa Smile ? haven't seen it yet but the sad thing is the girls they portray there are the Muslim girls of today -- obsessed with two things... marriage and who they marry... and i'm saying this as a teacher in 3 Muslim schools and it gets worse with every generation [quote]All the good guys are gone and there are none left??? Please. [/quote] when all the good guys have the idea that their wives should live for them.. i mean what about her dreams and aspirations.. what of her servitude to Allah...?? why do some people think that the epitome of wife is someone who is a marathon biryani maker?  and the fact that some people preach it as islam is even worse.  i can't even tell you the number of muslim girls i know who are educated, independent and are really contributing to society who are turned off from islam because of some people's attitudes.. AND i told you the truth.. they are marrying non religious, less religious and in extreme cases non-muslim men because they are the only one's that accept them for who they are and support them outside the narrow definitions of 'wife' some people have.

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Fozia
12/20/03 at 06:31:36
[slm] Br. Nomi as Sr. Jannah said there are alternatives. I work part time I'm in the office a maximum two days a week the rest of my work is done from home... Fatima is left either with her dad the days I'm out or my sister takes care of her. I've found leaving my baby with her daddy from 9-4 (I make up my hours as I please), has provided hubby with a really good bonding experience, I doubt he'd be this close to her had I been the main carer. Of course he's still terrified when she has a dirty nappy but it's not deterred him. Also consider how you'd feel if all of a sudden you were told that you should stay at home and take care of things in there. I love Fatima she came after lots of prayer. However have you or any Br' on this board spent a day with a wailing baby, when you've not managed to get out of your pajamas because baby is upset for no visible reason??? Going out to work helps keep me sane, I'm alone here no friends close by, I'm limited to where I can go as I've a buggy and no car etc etc. Contrary to popular belief wives do not spend the majority of their time with their feet up eating chocolates and watching TV.... Wassalaam
12/20/03 at 06:36:44
Fozia

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
BroHanif
12/20/03 at 07:10:43
Salaams, [quote] love Fatima she came after lots of prayer. However have you or any Br' on this board spent a day with a wailing baby, when you've not managed to get out of your pajamas because baby is upset for no visible reason Going out to work helps keep me sane, I'm alone here no friends close by, I'm limited to where I can go as I've a buggy[/quote] I know how this feels Sis and yes my wife did use to work and Insha-Allah she may go back to work some day. We had no problems with her working in fact you could say Fatima(Masha-Allah) is quite advanced for her age due to the teaching we carried out. I sometimes feel I must be hanging out with the wrong crowd I'm sorry to say that the bros I know look forward to spending time with their little ones. In fact nearly every one of my friends is capable of changing nappies and does not fret or go into seizure mode. I admit that there are some who fold their hands across their chests and will not change nappies yet this is very rare. Salaams Hanif more later...
12/20/03 at 10:09:45
BroHanif

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Kathy
12/20/03 at 09:31:42
[quote author=BroHanif link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=30#33 date=12/20/03 at 07:10:43] I sometimes feel I must be hanging out with the wrong crowd I'm sorry to say that the bros I know they all look forward to spending time with their little ones. In fact nearly every one of my friends is capable of changing nappies and does not fret or go into seizue mode. [/quote] I would say you are hanging out with the right crowd. On the flip side, I only have met one Brother who would change a diaper, yet he is much younger (30) than me. Wonder if it is an age thing. Inevitably i know someone is going to write in and say...ya gotta make them do it... One sister asked her husband to change the diaper ... he refused, and as a matter of point she said she wouldn't do it either. He got so mad he punched a hole in the wall.... She changed the diaper.... and he never did... I wonder, when he is sitting in his diaper when he is an old incontinent man, how he will feel when no one will want to change him!

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Matheerah
12/20/03 at 10:30:10
[slm] Qoute: Jannah when all the good guys have the idea that their wives should live for them.. i mean what about her dreams and aspirations.. what of her servitude to Allah...?? why do some people think that the epitome of wife is someone who is a marathon biryani maker?  and the fact that some people preach it as islam is even worse.  i can't even tell you the number of muslim girls i know who are educated, independent and are really contributing to society who are turned off from islam because of some people's attitudes.. AND i told you the truth.. they are marrying non religious, less religious and in extreme cases non-muslim men because they are the only one's that accept them for who they are and support them outside the narrow definitions of 'wife' some people have. True True, yet people dont realize that women who exel much in servicing the community are doing much for the ummah, its a sacrifice they are giving, but what do they get back in return besides a jumble of taunts, saying she is too westernised minded and shes too into western freedom. Beleive me i know many sisters out thier who where the hijaab, yet thev'e exeled much into their education, including me, does fate really say we wont get a spouse? :-/   or have they themselves decided that these sisters wont get a spouse? Was not Hazrat Khadijah (R.A) educated and got married to the greatest of prophets [saw]? beleive me its not islam that says women who educates wont get a good spouse, but its culture.  ::)

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Nomi
12/20/03 at 16:49:59
[slm] [quote] hmm it's interesting that ppl  jump to the conclusion that successful women will abandon their children when they are babies... perhaps the real reason brothers don't want to marry successful power women, they are not too sure of their committment to family [/quote] heh... respected sis, we really like to pinch dont we? No body jumped to that conclusion and as far as a man's commitment to his family is concerned then i think even feeding a child is not the duty of mothers but infact its upto dads to do the necessary arrangement. I think no where its written that the wife should bring up children instead its upto dads to do it. But my question was how to effecttively get the job done to which you guys suggested part time jobs. OK, here i wont be able to comment much as i dont really know practices of other Muslim countries but a part time job isn't a norm in my part of the world. So, to me its just another minority view as not many get part time work (waiting for responses from other countries/cultures). [quote] .. i mean what about her dreams and aspirations.. what of her servitude to Allah...?? why do some people think that the epitome of wife is someone who is a marathon biryani maker?   [/quote] Hate to use that word again but.. u r twisting the words again as nobody on here denied wives their time for deen and "community services". If we have such men on here then they should be courageous enough to come out nd defend their views! [slm] PS: now i get that comment in Ikwans... heh
12/20/03 at 17:05:01
Nomi

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Matheerah
12/21/03 at 13:04:26
[quote author=jannah link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=0#0 date=12/16/03 at 06:35:12] How Hard Can It Be? The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Career Women Over 25 By Munira Lekovic Ezzeldine Beginning in the homes, parents need to nurture their children by encouraging them that they can have both worlds and that they can be successful in their career and marriage. Muslim women can have a huge impact on the future by modeling the multi-faceted woman of Islam to their children.[/quote] Thats whay we need people who can make parents understand and bring them into the views of the youth today, to let them know what todays youth think and want. but being under the light of shari'ah and guidence of the ulamaa.

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
onemuslimgirl
12/21/03 at 16:00:23
This article is sooo true. My dad had a friend who was looking to get married, and he wanted a sister who held a ph.D or was a doctor, but he did not want her to work ever. its like hello, if you don't want a sister to work, take someone who wants to be a housewife, and didn't spend all that time trying to get her doctorate or medical degree. I think that sisters tend to want someone of their equal or higher because everyone knows that the man has the final decision in the family. i did have a brother propose who had a degree less than me and as i spoke with him, i feel that intellectually he was on a lower level than myself (but than again, it could be because he was pretty young and girls mature faster, i think he was around 24 and i was 21).....i just did not feel comfortable with that. i wanted someone who i can trust will have good judgement and will be able to have a better insight to things than myself. my dear brothers....and sisters....when searching for a marriage partner, rely on Allah and know that he will chose what is best for you. make sure you are fair to your selves and the person you are choosing. Don't be picky, but at the same time do not accept someone you are not comfortable with. and most importantly, if you are comfortable with someone and u made istikhara prayers and everything seems to be going well, go with it, regardless if people around you see fault in it. you rely on Allah and Allah only........

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
anon
12/21/03 at 18:00:51
[quote author=jannah link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=30#31 date=12/20/03 at 05:33:04] seems people think there are only two choices... housewife or career woman [/quote] Motherhood is the most important career there is and both men and women should contribute to it. However men being required to earn a living by shariah have to fulfill that requirement and use their free time to help out. Women however should work fulltime in this career. Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal said: "Nations are raised on the laps of mothers." The corporate culture in USA is such that the more ones taqwa increases the more one wishes to stay away from it. I know some pious brothers who are trying their best to get out of it, and a lot of students from Muslim countires are choosing to go back even when they have job offers here. I can't understand why any woman would want to work in corporate America when she is not required by shariah to provide for her family. Ofcourse she should work out of sheer necessity if the situation dictates so. I am saddened to see educated Muslim women working to earn a 70+k sallary whereas their husbands already earn enough to support the family, whereas the Muslim communities need well educated teachers in Islamic schools, whereas the Muslim communities need talent to do voluntary work in areas of dawah, teaching, media relations etc. Why not work for Islamic organizations and in Islamic schools and mosques rather than for companies like Coca Cola ? If an Islamic school is not available why not start one if you are an educated power Muslimah? Why not home school your kids and kids of your Muslim friends/relatives and save them from the American school system? [quote author=jannah link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=30#31 date=12/20/03 at 05:33:04] anyone see Mona Lisa Smile ? haven't seen it yet but the sad thing is the girls they portray there are the Muslim girls of today -- obsessed with two things... marriage and who they marry... and i'm saying this as a teacher in 3 Muslim schools and it gets worse with every generation [/quote] The sheer plethora of threads dealing with marriage, marriage advice, the ideal guy, the questions to ask guys who propose, etc.  on this board seems to indicate that the mods and members here haven't grown out the Muslim teenage girl  marriage obsession (assuming the above qoute is true). Being obsessed with marriage is better than being obsessed with careers in corporate America (I think). The workplace culture in many companies forces Muslim women to give up on many small things related to haya and Islamic values. And those small things add up. The same applies to men, but they must still work as it is fardh on them to provide for their family. [quote author=jannah link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=30#31 date=12/20/03 at 05:33:04] why do some people think that the epitome of wife is someone who is a marathon biryani maker?  and the fact that some people preach it as islam is even worse.  i can't even tell you the number of muslim girls i know who are educated, independent and are really contributing to society who are turned off from islam because of some people's attitudes.. AND i told you the truth.. they are marrying non religious, less religious and in extreme cases non-muslim men because they are the only one's that accept them for who they are and support them outside the narrow definitions of 'wife' some people have. [/quote] I have never met anyone who wants a  biryani maker only. More and more guys are learning how to cook. Shariah doesn't require wives to cook food, and so more and more guys are helping out in the kitchen, with kids and in household chores. A biryani maker is a cultural paradigm that is being thrown out rapidly by more and more Islamic minded guys. It is fair for women to be turned off from guys to whom culture and tradition is everything, but it is unfair to claim religious guys want biryani makers and hence women must marry non-religious or non Muslim guys. People making generalizations like all guys being this way and that way should remember that they may have to defend their accusations one day in the court of the Most High.

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
FajR
12/22/03 at 00:08:23
SubhanAllah, this thread is on fire!! personally, i think its unfair to just say that brothers today are overwhelmed and uncomfortable marrying a "power muslimah" coz of watever reason. It could be an ego problem, a domestic problem on who stays home with the kids or it could be their age. Yes, this is a part of the problem, but dont just blame the brothers for not approaching these muslimahs. I think some of us sisters have become too picky, "power muslimahs" want someone with their own mental/intellectuale level, relegiousness level, education and career level, and he should be of the right age too. Not that keeping these standards is a wrong thing, but i feel that u dont get everything. Instead of shunning these guyz away, they need to be assured that even for a power muslimah her family will come first, because that is how it is supposed to be according to the shariah. Being qualified and well educated is a great thing, not only does it help the Muslim community, it's also needed in raising your kids well. Like anon suggested, use yr education in home schooling yr kids and giving them the Islamic teachings that they so desperately need in this society. However, i do find it very ironic when brothers ask for Phd or doctrate wives and force them to stay at home after marriage. If she thinx she can handle both a part time career and her kids, Or give her career a break for some time then she shouldne be stopped like this. [slm]

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
ouch
12/22/03 at 09:06:21
[slm] Just to add fuel / food for thought to this already flaming folder :) My late mother-in-law (Allah yarhamha) raised 5 sons to be strong, committed Muslims and highly qualified professionals, besides taking care of her husband's ailing parents, helping those in need in her community AND retaining her joie de vivre....everyone remembers her for her loud cheerful laugh and her awesome presence. Was she educated? Barely. Was she a power muslimah: YES!! I know a Pakistani tailor here in KSA who's wife is a hafiza, she has 5 children, helps out in the tailoring shop by doing exquisite embroidery AND teaches the children in her neighbourhood Qur'an in her spare time. Her children are models of good behaviour and are generally doing better in school than those of more qualified women who keep whining about the lack of work opportunities in KSA, while doing nothing about their lot. Is she computer-literate, does she have a double degree or technical skills? No. Is she a power-muslimah?YES!! I guess that puts paid to the idea that uneducated women are raising uneducated boys to get married to uneducated girls and thus perpetuating the "power muslimah marriage problem". The truth is that we need to broaden the definition of a power muslimah to include all those countless faceless women who are striving in their deen and duniya for th pleasure of Allah and to raise their kids in the best possible way. I'm writing this as a qualified stay-at-home doctor, I'm proud to say that when I'm pushed by ppl who berate me for putting my skills and hard-gotten 'ilm on hold , I always reply that there are alhamdulillah many doctors in the world, but my kids have only 1 mom! They need me right now more than any one else, besides I can still wield a mean syringe at home consultations! A year back we were looking for a prospective wife for my younger brother-in-law (an MBA in a multinational in the UAE), alhamdulillah we didn't have to hunt too much but that experience boiled down to one question which I'd ask all power muslimahs wanting to get married to ask themselves: Would you choose a girl like yourself to be your son's wife?   If yes: more power to you, may Allah increase your tribe! If no: then we seriously need to introspect and join heads to solve the huge problem that we face. :-)
12/22/03 at 09:24:04
ouch

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
FajR
12/23/03 at 00:14:32
[quote author=ouch link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=40#41 date=12/22/03 at 09:06:21]  I'm proud to say that when I'm pushed by ppl who berate me for putting my skills and hard-gotten 'ilm on hold , I always reply that there are alhamdulillah many doctors in the world, but my kids have only 1 mom! [/quote]   SubhanAllah!! im with u sister and may Allah give u Jazah for taking such a descision. May Allah swt give all of us strength and knowledge to raise kids that a are exempelary additions to Allah swt's Ummah! Ameen :-)  [wlm]

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Ayla_A
12/23/03 at 00:48:36
[slm] yes the definition of a power muslimah is varied in so many ways. On the original thread, As a revert I find that age is not such a barrier for marriage, were if I was a raised muslimah it would be.  Why is that.  Many of the men interested in a revert want the woman that wants to work and contribute to the family.  Maybe it is a difference in circumstance I am not sure, but it is something that confuses me. [wlm] :-)Ayla_A

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Matheerah
12/23/03 at 10:19:38
[slm] looking that 95% of men feel "food" is one main part of there lifes, always thinking about thier stomachs, Maybe they they think a power women can't cook!!? i am not right? ::)

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Abu_Hamza
12/23/03 at 23:23:47
[slm] why not marry young, with the condition that your husband will allow you to accomplish your dreams?  (be they earning an Islamic education, becoming/remaining active in Islamic work, receiving a higher education like an MS or a Ph.D., building a career, etc). don't tell me there are no guys out there who are willing to let their wives do this, because there are.  you just have to promise to be a good wife (and mother, in case you have children), just like you demand from him to be a good husband to you (and a good father for your children).   and no, a "wife", in this case, doesn't mean a marathon biryani maker!  there are a plethora of brothers out there who *know* that's *not* the definition of a wife!   the question is, do the sisters know what a wife is?  and do they act like one with their husbands? hmm ...

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
jaihoon
12/23/03 at 23:27:47
[quote author=Abu_Hamza link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=40#45 date=12/23/03 at 23:23:47][slm] why not marry young, with the condition that your husband will allow you to accomplish your dreams?  (be they earning an Islamic education, becoming/remaining active in Islamic work, receiving a higher education like an MS or a Ph.D., building a career, etc). don't tell me there are no guys out there who are willing to let their wives do this, because there are.  you just have to promise to be a good wife (and mother, in case you have children), just like you demand from him to be a good husband to you (and a good father for your children).   and no, a "wife", in this case, doesn't mean a marathon biryani maker!  there are a plethora of brothers out there who *know* that's *not* the definition of a wife!   the question is, do the sisters know what a wife is?  and do they act like one with their husbands? hmm ...[/quote] A very balanced and logcal argument. "realistic" as well. jazak Allah khair

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
jannah
12/24/03 at 06:08:47
[wlm] we're not talking about young people, although i'd agree it would be nice for both people to grow together and support each other to accomplish their dreams. but why the heck can't older people do this too? why is it if someone is trying to do this already they aren't good marriageable material.  it's like muslim values have shifted to a traditional paradigm and there they are stuck for the last number of centuries. and to people who claim the roles are changing i have one thing to say, "yeah right" [quote]there are a plethora of brothers out there who *know* that's *not* the definition of a wife!  [/quote] and there's plenty that don't... i think women should at least have the choice, if people want to never use anything they learn in school or if they really do want to be a biryani marathon maker good for her no one is criticizing her choice. but that this is taught as an islamic thing is just so hypocritical as for anon's post you just proved all my points... that 1. people are locked into traditional roles and claim that is islam, that 2. girls are obsessed with marriage as the be all and end all as u claim all of us here are, and 3.  these 'generalizations' are proved true by the shahada of many, except those who wish to deny it i have no worries for myself.. i don't plan to marry anyone that can't deal with my aspirations and dreams as well, and if i can't find someone like that then so be it, but i truly feel sorry for all the girls growing up who will be forced to conform in order to marry.

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Nomi
12/24/03 at 08:05:05
[slm] [quote] i don't plan to marry anyone that can't deal with my aspirations and dreams as well, and if i can't find someone like that then so be it, but i truly feel sorry for all the girls growing up who will be forced to conform in order to marry.   [/quote] I dunno ppl, its plain silly to think like this. At one hand we want others to "deal with" our aspirations on the other, we can't deal with others' way and are stuck to idealism. Dont think of humans as hard wired robots, even robots have AI these days (ask bro Asim Karim if you dont trust me). Brothers and sisters, dont stick to idealism, it aint a perfect world. Do a "lil" compromise just a small one and then after getting married change your man (or woman). Men arn't hard wired robot with ZERO artificial intelligence embedded in them! Please settle for 95 correct answers out of 100 !!!!!!! [slm]
12/24/03 at 08:09:10
Nomi

<+tr>

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
timbuktu
12/24/03 at 08:41:54
[slm] Nomi, don't be logical when talking to sisters. our brains are wired differently from theirs but i agree that marriage is give & take. my wife says it mostly she "gives" & i "take". i agree with her :) actually i think women do have a raw deal, particularly the working woman. because somehow or the other, the problem of doing house chores & raising the kids also falls to her. ideally, the husband should help out, but if most men are like me, then we are indeed a selfish lot. i have seen some reverse scenes, but can't figure out why? i do think that sharing a husband with another woman should not be taken as such a big deal. It looks like it was the done thing in the past. I mean look at the Old Testament. & look at Maryam Jamila, who has made such sacrifices for eemaan, it is incredible. not that i am putting myself in the marriage market. i regard myself as too old for that. :) but it does bother me, looking at single people. at one time i had decided to stay single, now i am glad i did not. i think the problems we face stem from wanting too much. we aren't willing to take what Allah sends our way. Young men want to get behind the MD's desk right away, with at least a Honda Civic, & a 1000 yd bunglow in the poshest locality, & with time & money to live it up. & the "power muslimahs"! what do they want? i guess even if the power muslimah decided to marry beneath them, sadly the man may feel uneasy. so it does boil down to what the mother teaches her child in the lap, & what the society teaches outside. btw: my son got engaged past Sunday to the girl of her choice, who could be considered a power muslimah, except that she isn't in for Hejab, let alone a niqab. She is doing a masters in IT. don't know if she would want to have a career.

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Barr
12/24/03 at 11:16:49
[slm] [quote]I dunno ppl, its plain silly to think like this. At one hand we want others to "deal with" our aspirations on the other, we can't deal with others' way and are stuck to idealism[/quote] Br Nomi, do you know Jannah's aspirations and dreams to make such a sweeping conclusion? coz in the 1st place. marriage is not everything. Its not the be all and end all. And neither is marriage about changing the other person to get what/ where we want to be. So, for some of us, its not the end of the world if we don't get married. Sure, if noone around us measures up, then, its high time that we check our yardstick. Personally, as much as we do want to be realistic I think a good and balanced dosage of idealism is imperative to keep up with living the quality of life that we want. I guess there's a difference between being picky/idealistic  and being realistic yet selective... of which all of those are sooo subjective. (hey! it rhymes! :)) Allahua'lam P.S. Br Timbuktu - Mabrook on the recent engagement. May Allah continuously guide and protect both of them. Ameen :)
12/24/03 at 11:17:12
Barr

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
BroHanif
12/24/03 at 17:32:54
Salaams, [quote]So, for some of us, its not the end of the world if we don't get married.[/quote] With great respect Sis, it is a Sunnah and an important one. What happened to half of the imaan?. Have we all reached a point where we can not find a suitable partner? Are WE asking the right questions to ourselves? Do we desire too much?. And how do you attain ones dream and aspiration? You attain it by breaking the task down to reach your goal, surely the husband and wife would work together to attain such goal. Isn't one goal of ALL Muslims becoming married and then working from there or does the dream come first and then marriage? I don't know sometimes we make the issues so complex when they really are not. Maybe I'm just a simpleton and take life on its head and work at it from there, taking each day as it comes, working with others and sharing my dreams and visions. And subahna-allah its worked so far to date. Some of the stuff that I've read in the past to help me, it may help you Gung Ho by Ken Blanchard and Optimal Thinking by Rosalene Glickman Salaams Hanif p.s. Can we also have less of the generalisation that ALL men are looking for traditional women and biryani makers please. Many of us do not give a hoot whether our wives can make biryani or jam sandwiches.

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Matheerah
12/24/03 at 19:53:51
[quote author=timbuktu link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=40#49 date=12/24/03 at 08:41:54] ideally, the husband should help out, but if most men are like me, then we are indeed a selfish lot. i have seen some reverse scenes, but can't figure out why?[/quote] Well i agree to you, most men are a selfish lot that expect everything to be done for them, and have taken one paticular role for granted, did'nt the prophet help out in the house? and one more reminder, that it is, is it not mentioned in hadith that men have provide food too for the women, i think men have taken it too far in mixing too much tradition into thier practicing thier deen. I wonder when people will open their eyes to tell the difference between deen & tradition, not to forget that some traditions do mix with the islamic concepts and rule very much. I find nothing wrong in man that marries a educated women as long as she's got her choice of what she wants, and willing and happy to look after her marrige life as well as do career/education at the same time.

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Barr
12/24/03 at 21:03:52
Assalamu'alaikum :) [quote]With great respect Sis, it is a Sunnah and an important one. What happened to half of the imaan?.   Have we all reached a point where we can not find a suitable partner? Are WE asking the right questions to ourselves? Do we desire too much?. [/quote] My respected brother, I do not mean to demean marriage, astarghfirullah. MashaALlah, it is a great sunnah. On the other hand, marriage is sometimes romanticised to be everything one should look forward to in life first, instead of being a a good servant of Allah who lives up to the tasks that Allah has given him/ her in this world first. It may surprise some, but the dreams and aspirations of a Muslimah, may be a very down-to-earth and compromising more (by marriage to another Ahmad et al) would just jeapordise our very own fundamentals. And one thing I find which I myself sometimes forget is that marriage is rizq from Allah too. And sometimes, this rizq comes later in life, or perhaps never at all in this life. Sure, it is half of deen, but if Allah restricts us from being married, than, it is not the end of the world, being single is not a doomed status. Any other thing that Allah restricts or takes away from us, is not the best for us. Life is still worth living, eventhough there is no man at our side. Yet, I shall reiterate again, if noone else measures up, its time to check our yardstick. Allahua'lam P.S. Jazakallah for the suggested reading materials.
12/24/03 at 21:08:47
Barr

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
amatullah
12/24/03 at 23:26:00
[slm] Just as it was said that it is ok to make the choice to be at home wife and that no judgement is being passed, it was also said that it is hyppocritical to consider that Islamic. I don't get it. I am not making judgement on sisters who work. In fact I am agreeing mostly with the sisters here but in the same time I think it is only fair to say if i make a choice that is fine, but I cannot say that the other is unislamic. My own opinion is that it is closer to taqwa to choose to stay at home. Is it not the prophet  [saw] who said (even though we should not be disallowed to go to the masjid) that our prayers at home are better for all? What does that say to us? If even in acts of worship it is better to be at home, what of daily affairs? The continuation of the same hadeeth says not to go out with perfume etc. Then it is refering to fitna of others. Moreover, it is also the prophet  [saw] who said I have not left a bigger fitna for men, than women. And Aisha said after the prophet  [saw] death that if he had seen women the way the were at that point that he would have forbaded them to go to the masjid. Do you think we are better than the sabiqooN? and Tabi'oon? The ones whom Allah praised and said lots of htem in jannah and only a few of us (the later ones) There are plenty ahadeth that deal with this particular issue. Another one that is a Sahih means that her prayer in her room is better than in her house, and her house is better than in the land, and that one is better than in her people's masjid. (and i believe another version of this hadeeth finishes by stating and that masjid better than travelling to the prophet's masjid!!!!! If our idols are the mothers of believers and Allah has told them to talk from behind a veil and to stay at home clearly stated in the Quran. Why should we deny that it is then an act of dedication to Allah?  Many will claim the mothers of believer freely mixed but was it before or after that command? Aisha would not take off her hijab in her house after omar was burried there!!!!  Besides they were mahram on all men.  And that is all for dawah as well, it was never as i see it for worldly gains. Same with the early Muslimas they had a normal life but they hardly ever chose to mix wiht men for worldly gain, unless it is a neccssity. What is a bigger act of devotion to Allah than to model ourselves after these women? But for the men they should not be only seeking such women, and thinking less of others. I don't think they are mostly behaving like the sahaba either. I am not saying what the sisters should or should not do. But let's not say that if someone wants that then it is hyppocrtical and the choice is not based on something rooted in Islam because as I understand it, it is.

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
strait-talkin-sis
12/24/03 at 23:26:41
Gather ye rosebuds while ye may........... I have 2 paternal aunts: post graduates, v. active in the community and knowledgeable in deen, great jobs, good looking....yet they're both unmarried. One is in her late 30s, the other mid 40s. I often talk about marriage with them and have heard them say that if they could turn back the clock, they'd perhaps be less choosy and more accomodating on the issue of marriage. A person's priorities may change with time and what may be satisfying and gratifying as a younster may not be enough when one is older. Besides, I've yet to hear of a husband who objects to his wife's ibaadat coming first, in fact most men are proud and happy that their wives are pious. Like a sister said way back in this thread: one question which I'd ask all power muslimahs wanting to get married to ask themselves: Would you choose a girl like yourself to be your son's wife?   If yes: more power to you, may Allah increase your tribe! If no: then we seriously need to introspect and join heads to solve the huge problem that we face. This question really struck a chord in me and inshallah I really will ask myself this the next time someone proposes.
12/24/03 at 23:29:32
strait-talkin-sis

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
se7en
12/25/03 at 05:53:48
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh, The issue of contention is this: A sister who is well-educated secularly, knowledgeable Islamically, and outspoken and active in her community will have a harder time getting married than others.  The reasons attributed to this may differ, but it is a reality that can be seen all too clearly in our communities across the United States (and from what I gather in other areas as well.)   If a brother is personally not inclined to marrying such a sister due to her age, personality, character, her supposed values and priorities in life, etc, that is fine.  However, the problem lies in justifying such attitude as "Islamic".   It's interesting to read how people have attempted to do this.  People have said that such a woman would neglect her duties as a mother. This is not necessarily the case.  Please do not make the assumption that every woman who works outside the home is somehow causing irrepairable damage to her family and children.  It is certainly a case by case situation. People have said that such a woman is career-driven, and focused on money. Again, this is not necessarily the case.  Many women work for organizations and companies that are doing a lot of good for the Ummah and for the Muslim community.  Is such the case for a Muslim lawyer, working for the rights of Muslims?  or a doctor, working at a clinic for Muslims?  The list goes on.  Again, it is a case by case basis. True, it was certainly not the way of the wives of Rasulullah [saw] to be obsessed with a career that had no real benefit, or neglect their families in pursuit of work. Nor was it the way of the wives of Rasulullah [saw] to stay home and direct all their energy and passion towards raising children *alone*.  Subhan'Allah, it's interesting how in our inter-faith gatherings, and in our da'wah, we are proud to talk about Khadija, radhi'Allahu anhaa, as a woman who engaged in business; Aisha, radhiAllahu anhaa, as a woman who was a scholar of scholars, whose intelligence and acumen humbled men that stand as the pillars of our tradition; Umm Salamah, radhiAllahu anhaa, a woman the prophet [saw] consulted with and whose opinion he took extremely seriously in making crucial political decisions that affected the whole ummah; sahabiyaat that were amazing mothers, but also scholars and warriors --  and yet we forget these women and their example in our own rhetoric.  These were not women who felt that they had accomplished their purpose as Muslims by simply giving birth.  These were women whose aspiration was ubudiyyah, and they set out to accomplish this mission by whatever means were made available to them, and by harnessing the passion, intelligence and skills that Allah had endowed them with in the best way.   Some of our communities literally deprive women *entrance* into the masjid, and yet, we find in our classes of learning, in our conferences, and in our organizations that women far outnumber men.  Talk to our scholars in the United States today, and see what they have to say about women and their seriousness when it comes to learning this deen.  I am not demeaning men by saying this, but I mean, please -- don't give me this nonsense about 'where are our shaykha power muslims'.  You don't have to look far to see them.  And yet, these women, who follow the footsteps of the noble women of our past - these are the very women who are finding it difficult to get married in our communities.  And I'm not talking about women who are focused on a career that has no spiritual benefit, but those who are using their abilities and their skills to contribute to our communities, and feel that they can make contributions that reach outside their household.  Perhaps we should stop blaming these women, and turn a criticial eye to the ones rejecting them. Another thing -- we criticize women for working towards a higher secular education and secular careers.  I agree that some women are getting involved in soul-less corporations and careers, the purpose of which is to increase material status, and that this is depriving our community of skills and resources it needs - and I agree that it should be condemned.  But why don't we criticize our brothers for the same reason?  Sure, brothers need to provide for the family - but there is a wide spectrum of careers in which a brother can do so - and they are not limited to the fields of engineering, or IT, or medicine. This is not a 'women and career' issue, but a Muslim community issue, and these are questions we must ask parents -- why are our youth, their passion, their skill and their energies being poured into GE and the local hospital?  And why are they not being poured into areas from which this ummah can benefit? What's my point?  Leaving aside *many* comments in this thread, the main points I am bringing to the table are these: -- Is it Islamic for a man to marry a particular type of woman (one who is very young, or from 'back home', etc) in order to have a wife that is content to stay at home, as opposed to one who would like to contribute to the community along side taking care of her family?   -- Do you think it is a problem if, in our communities, women who are well educated secularly, knowledgeable Islamically, outspoken and active, are being rejected for marriage in place of young, uneducated women who have no ambition, secular or spiritually?  What ethic is this teaching our future generations of young girls? -- Do we truly believe that the role of a woman in our societies is limited to the household?  Is this in concordance with our religious tradition, leaving aside our cultural/personal feelings and tendencies?   -- What are the qualities you as a brother or sister are looking for in a spouse?  If they are not 'Islamic' qualities, do you think that this is having a detrimental affect on our communities, and is actually leading to a trend in the types of husbands/wives that are most sought after?  Is it becoming a cycle of supply and demand, that will lead to men and women cultivating such qualities, and shunning or abandoning the more 'Islamic' ones? -- Is this "modern career-driven Muslim woman" a product of our community's emphasis on materialism and status?  If we condemn her focus on wealth as being un-Islamic, isn't it hypocritical for us to remain silent when men engage in the same behavior? I would like to clarify that this is not an attempt at brother bashing, and no where in my post did I say that 'all' brothers believe a certain thing or act a certain way.  These are just some points for reflection. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah, se7en
12/25/03 at 07:01:42
se7en

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
anon
12/25/03 at 07:54:29
[slm] All valid points Se7en except you use the ideal case of a great Muslimah to paint the general picture. How great it would be if all highly educated Muslimahs were exactly like what you describe: "women who are well educated secularly, knowledgeable Islamically, outspoken and active, are being rejected for marriage in place of young, uneducated women who have no ambition, secular or spiritually?" I would ask you to re-think (or re-reflect on) that line. No one wants an uneducated wife. Spiritually advanced, yet uneducated women have a harder time getting married than PhDs with no knowledge of deen, and that just reflects the secular and temporal-minded state of our ummah. It was very harsh of you to claim that women with no secular/spiritual ambition and no education are getting married easily. I know of no such women, and through my family I know of many women who got married easily and at a young age. All are highly educated, including engineers, doctors, architects etc.  (To become a doctor takes much less time in countries other than USA). The kind of educated women you describe actually get married very easily. If you look at the pool of highly educated women, the ones who are Islamically knowledgeable and want to fulfill the rights of motherhood in the Islamic sense are very few, atleast from what I see and hear. And the kind of women you describe don't marry non-Muslims even if they are having a hard time finding a spouse. After reading this thread this is what I gather: 1) It is all a question of probabilities. From the perspective of religious guys, the probability of getting the ideal Muslimah from the pool of career-oriented women is "much less" than from the pool of women who are more inclined to stay at home. Most of the career-oriented women I have come accross in university had much less inclination towards religion than desirable. 2) If a religious guy finds a Muslimah like the one Se7en described he would "happily" accept her. Atleast that has been my experience, and to claim that the Muslimahs describe by Se7en don't find husbands is extrapolating the situation. 3) The problem is an image problem. Whenever religious guys see career-oriented women taking stances against the teachings of Islam, not covering, marrying non-Muslims etc. etc. (and one sees a lot of this) it turns them away. 4) All the non-religious guys I know are dying for Phds, doctors, lawyers, and other career oriented women. All the religious guys I know are not. Reason? Probabilites! Probabilites! HOWEVER all religious guys I know would gladly look into "the good" cases (i.e. ones described by Se7en)  if they find them.
12/25/03 at 07:56:24
anon

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Nomi
12/25/03 at 07:55:55
[slm] [quote author=se7en link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=50#57 date=12/25/03 at 05:53:48]  I am not demeaning men by saying this, but I mean, please -- don't give me this nonsense about 'where are our shaykha power muslims'.  You don't have to look far to see them.[/quote] [quote author=Nomi link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=10#16 date=12/18/03 at 00:34:25]... its sending out an impression that *power* to you "mainly" (not solely) comes from your skills, why arn't shaykhas been referred to here as *power sisters*??. Either ways... where are the female equivalent of Hamza Yusuf? of Muhammad Al Shareef? (US) Taqi Usmani? Tariq Jamil? (PK) Molana Saad? (IND) And as far as i know there are two PhDs here on the board... bro Asim Karim and Hyper.. where are female equivalents of them? I'm mentioning it coz probly sisters are thinking that men are lagging or something. [/quote] If you look (even skim, no need to go too deep) at the bold part you'll realize that sisters are always a bit more emotional than us brothers. Whats encouraging is the fact that the part that bashed older brothers was deleted/modified. Jazakumullah for that. [slm]

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
se7en
12/25/03 at 13:54:03
as salaamu alaykum, [quote]If you look (even skim, no need to go too deep) at the bold part you'll realize that sisters are always a bit more emotional than us brothers. [/quote] Brother, you have not responded to any of the points that I brought up in my post. [quote]Whats encouraging is the fact that the part that bashed older brothers was deleted/modified. Jazakumullah for that.[/quote] Here is the part that "bashed" older brothers:   Earlier in this thread someone made the comment that "you shouldn't use logic with sisters".  I think we as a whole, both brothers and sisters, are pretty emotional people, and we tend to lack logic in our responses and our discussions, especially with issues that are close to home.  I think this thread is a testament to that   ::)  Perhaps it will lead to some introspection. I believe br. Nomi feels this is 'bashing' br. timbuktu, as he is the original author of that statement. wasalaamu alaykum wrt ps - br anon, appreciate your comments
12/25/03 at 14:54:06
se7en

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
siddiqui
12/25/03 at 14:02:44
[slm] Life overall, especially in a relationship is a compromise folks, it may not be the  ideal situation but  it is very workable and livable. One (both brothers &sisters) cannot have all that they want, It’s a matter of give some and take some, without compromising our core values ideals and beliefs For me and for all the brothers and sisters here the question is “you want such, such such a thing”,”what are we willing to give in return?” (Selflessly for it may not be to the best of our likings). Are we willing to do something that makes our spouse happy even though the thing might not thrill us? If we can settle this within our minds, by our niyaah, words, actions and DEEDS then a relationship/starting one is not a battle, at least not among the spouses ;) [wlm]
12/25/03 at 14:03:29
siddiqui

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Matheerah
12/25/03 at 15:42:28
[quote author=amatullah link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=50#54 date=12/24/03 at 23:26:00] [slm] Just as it was said that it is ok to make the choice to be at home wife and that no judgement is being passed, it was also said that it is hyppocritical to consider that Islamic. I don't get it. I am not making judgement on sisters who work. In fact I am agreeing mostly with the sisters here but in the same time I think it is only fair to say if i make a choice that is fine, but I cannot say that the other is unislamic. My own opinion is that it is closer to taqwa to choose to stay at home. Is it not the prophet  [saw] who said (even though we should not be disallowed to go to the masjid) that our prayers at home are better for all? What does that say to us? If even in acts of worship it is better to be at home, what of daily affairs? The continuation of the same hadeeth says not to go out with perfume etc. Then it is refering to fitna of others. Moreover, it is also the prophet  [saw] who said I have not left a bigger fitna for men, than women. And Aisha said after the prophet  [saw] death that if he had seen women the way the were at that point that he would have forbaded them to go to the masjid. Do you think we are better than the sabiqooN? and Tabi'oon? The ones whom Allah praised and said lots of htem in jannah and only a few of us (the later ones) There are plenty ahadeth that deal with this particular issue. Another one that is a Sahih means that her prayer in her room is better than in her house, and her house is better than in the land, and that one is better than in her people's masjid. (and i believe another version of this hadeeth finishes by stating and that masjid better than travelling to the prophet's masjid!!!!! If our idols are the mothers of believers and Allah has told them to talk from behind a veil and to stay at home clearly stated in the Quran. Why should we deny that it is then an act of dedication to Allah?  Many will claim the mothers of believer freely mixed but was it before or after that command? Aisha would not take off her hijab in her house after omar was burried there!!!!  Besides they were mahram on all men.  And that is all for dawah as well, it was never as i see it for worldly gains. Same with the early Muslimas they had a normal life but they hardly ever chose to mix wiht men for worldly gain, unless it is a neccssity. What is a bigger act of devotion to Allah than to model ourselves after these women? But for the men they should not be only seeking such women, and thinking less of others. I don't think they are mostly behaving like the sahaba either. I am not saying what the sisters should or should not do. But let's not say that if someone wants that then it is hyppocrtical and the choice is not based on something rooted in Islam because as I understand it, it is.[/quote] I'm not trying to critisize your view in any way siister, i shall say this with all due respect, but as many a have different beleifs, and strength of faiths, a mu'min or mu'minah can be in three stages of her/his faith. 1, ones iman can be so strong as in "Taqwa", (fear) meanng thier faith is so strong that they strive on everyfootstep to bring thier hearts to follow the right path 2, one follows what has been made fardh wajib.....ect for them, as in they follow what the ulama say. not as extreem as taqwa, and this in the moderate path. 3, One iman is weak, as some follow what they wish. And i think what your talking about is taqwa, women shall stay in the house, obey her hasband....ect. but if a womens in full hijab, is she not allowed to step out of her home, i say today we need knowlagble women both in deen and dunya. as a conclusion its upon the parents to bring up thier children islamicaly, so when they grow up they are standing on firm islamic foundation. I agree yes you will find very few sisters who are educated in both the worlds, dunyawi and ukhrawi knowlage, as well as brothers, you'll be lucky if you get one like that  ;) Qurrah!!

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Nomi
12/26/03 at 01:14:25
[slm] [quote] 2, one follows what has been made fardh wajib.....ect for them, as in they follow what the ulama say. not as extreem as taqwa, and this in the moderate path. [/quote] Did you mean that it "is" the moderate path? If yes then i would like to add something... after your approval inshaAllah. [quote] but if a womens in full hijab, is she not allowed to step out of her home, i say today we need knowlagble women both in deen and dunya. [/quote] Sorry but we can't stop ppl from stretching words we can just request them not to! Point being, nobody on here is talking about chaining ladies at home or as that crazy ga'A Mr. Bean used to put it "turn them into kitchen sink". No, that aint us brothers, i swear by God. [quote] Brother, you have not responded to any of the points that I brought up in my post. [/quote] heh.. my sis that comment covered the emotional bit well... ok about your post.. but before that let me quote myself only for emphasis inshaAllah. [quote] nobody on here is talking about chaining ladies at home or as that crazy ga'A Mr. Bean used to put it "turn them into kitchen sink". No, that aint us brothers, i swear by God. [/quote] You wrote: [quote] If a brother is personally not inclined to marrying such a sister due to her age, personality, character, her supposed values and priorities in life, etc, that is fine.  However, the problem lies in justifying such attitude as "Islamic [/quote] [quote] Subhan'Allah, it's interesting how in our inter-faith gatherings, and in our da'wah, we are proud to talk about Khadija, radhi'Allahu anhaa, as a woman who engaged in business; [/quote] Interesting you quote Khadija, radhi'Allahu anhaa running her business as those were pre-islamic times, She was married to the Prophet [saw] when He was  25 and Islam came when He was 40!!! Whats your point there? [quote] -- Is it Islamic for a man to marry a particular type of woman (one who is very young, or from 'back home', etc) in order to have a wife that is content to stay at home, as opposed to one who would like to contribute to the community along side taking care of her family? [/quote] Sorry but from my time here at the board i've seen that few sisters just ambiguously mention the phrase "contribute to the community". Whats your definiton of it, be precise and specific in your reply inshaAllah. Community work of ladies to me means, dawah work, teaching kids and girls, doctor for ladies and counselling for ladies (psychological etc). OR do you think that it constitutes everything that a man does as a job? Another comment i would like to add here is that, we, men and women, sure are equal but we arn't "similar". There are areas where women are given more responsibility and men in others, we may have more physical power but you sisters have more "sabr" as your power (just mentioned ONE lil thingie). And "on the whole" we are equal, like you wont like men protesting for their right of applying lipstick and mascara as women do, right? (brothers if you are thinking about it then count me out). Its fard and wajib for us men to provide for our spouse and the kids, not for you sisters. Pardon me for acting like a weirdo here but i'm compelled to quote myself again, i.e. [quote] Community work of ladies to me means, dawah work, teaching kids and girls, doctor for ladies and counselling for ladies (psychological etc). ......... nobody on here is talking about chaining ladies at home or as that crazy ga'A Mr. Bean used to put it "turn them into kitchen sink". No, that aint us brothers. [/quote] [slm] Your brother.

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Halima
12/26/03 at 03:34:15
Oh Dear Brothers and Sisters, Here is an older sister's two bits which may not make sense since she is divorced.  And who has avoided this topic from the beginning because I doubt I can add anything of value here.  But let me try. So far, there have been lots of valid points from both the sisters and the brothers.  Brother Siddiqui has really hit it on the head.  Compromise!  Instead of looking for perfection why not look for a brother or sister who can complete your own attributes?  It is not easy, yes, but if you put idealim and perfection as your measuring yard stick, aside, you might find a partner you will like enough to settle down with.  Remember, there are no guarantees.  Relationships, from inception to marriage need constant work.  And if both sides are willing to work at it, it will go far and endure. You have no way of knowing whether it will work or not.  The challenge here is trust and faith and prayers.  If you both develop a healthy attitude to meet each other half way, then by Allah's Grace it will work.  Do not let one of you do all the work in making the marriage work.  If you do that, it fail.  Communicate, emphasize, understand, respect and have an open mind. Regardless of whether both of you work or only one does, the challenges are the same believe it or not.  For marriange needs to be worked at by both parternes. For the brothers and sisters looking or wanting to get married for the first time, I wish you all the best.  For those who are married, congratulations and all the best too.  Nothing makes me happy as a happily married couple who have respect for each other and I am also happy when two people decide to get married.  And even for a divorcee like me, marriage is sacred and I do not regret having gone through it.  If I did not, I would not have Mahad and Haroun today.  It was worth everything else that happened. And if I was not working, I would not have been able to provide and support them and my family as I am today. But hey, don't "listen" to me.  Make the choice that is best for you, dear sisters and brothers and May ALLAH be with you ALL. After all, I am just a jaded OLD sister. Halima

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
timbuktu
12/26/03 at 06:46:15
[slm] [quote author=se7en link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=50#59 date=12/25/03 at 13:54:03]Earlier in this thread someone made the comment that "you shouldn't use logic with sisters".  I think we as a whole, both brothers and sisters, are pretty emotional people, and we tend to lack logic in our responses and our discussions, especially with issues that are close to home.  I think this thread is a testament to that   ::)  Perhaps it will lead to some introspection.[/quote] hey i don't mind this type of bashing. in fact my statement was made as a half-joke. You see, my mother never had formal schooling, only at home, my father died when she was 45, leaving 9 children of varying ages, & without any money. Yet she kept us together, focussed on learning, on earning a place in society, in the middle class, & she got this into us that girls need to be educated & treated equally with boys. In fact most of the women that i have seen so far, are superior to most of the men in intellect & logic. Did i not mention something about IOL. so don't take my comment to heart. i won't survive a logic duel with any of the sisters here. & two of my sisters have taken the course of single career-women. but both would strongly contest that they are in soul-less corporations. They work a lot harder round the year than i would ever be prepared to, despite me having all my needs taken care of. i am rather proud of them, but do wish they had married. i think all of us need a partner of the opposite sex. & thanks sis Barr for your good wishes to my son & fiance. I won't be able to pass it on, though. My children strongly disapprove of my going on-line to "chat" as they say. I used to think that women can be swayed & cheated by smooth-talking guys, but now i know men can also be taken in by girls who know how to wrap men around their little fingers.
12/26/03 at 06:52:36
timbuktu

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Matheerah
12/26/03 at 10:19:58
[quote author=Nomi link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=60#62 date=12/26/03 at 01:14:25][slm] Did you mean that it "is" the moderate path? If yes then i would like to add something... after your approval inshaAllah. Sorry but we can't stop ppl from stretching words we can just request them not to! Point being, nobody on here is talking about chaining ladies at home or as that crazy ga'A Mr. Bean used to put it "turn them into kitchen sink". No, that aint us brothers, i swear by God. [/quote] I see that their is some people who do understand how cultural veiws are taken of a women, i never thought "Mr Bean" (May Allah have mercy on him) would have such a view...lol I respect your point of view, were as were i come from majority suppory Mr Beans view.  :P  :(

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Nomi
12/26/03 at 23:34:01
[slm] To your amazement respected sis, "Mr. Bean" that we are talkig about here was a Muslim....... hm........ ask us how... [quote] 2, one follows what has been made fardh wajib.....ect for them, as in they follow what the ulama say. not as extreem as taqwa, and this in the moderate path. [/quote] Since you dint reply to my Q? so lets just not be the judge as to what the moderate path is. Because it was sending out an impression (i know you did not mean it) that Sahaba, tabi'een, taba tabi'een and salaaf were not on the moderate path, Allah Forbid. [slm]

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
se7en
12/27/03 at 07:04:29
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah, [quote]Interesting you quote Khadija, radhi'Allahu anhaa running her business as those were pre-islamic times, She was married to the Prophet  when He was  25 and Islam came when He was 40!!! [/quote] Hmm.. so are you saying that Khadija (ra) stopped engaging in business because of the message of Islam?  Is this something you have read?  I'd be interested in learning more. [quote]Sorry but from my time here at the board i've seen that few sisters just ambiguously mention the phrase "contribute to the community". Whats your definiton of it, be precise and specific in your reply inshaAllah. Community work of ladies to me means, dawah work, teaching kids and girls, doctor for ladies and counselling for ladies (psychological etc). OR do you think that it constitutes everything that a man does as a job? [/quote] I believe the definition of "contribution to the community" has thus far been vague because there are many ways in which a sister can contribute to her community.  When I use these words, I mean: any work that is permissible Islamically and of benefit to the Muslim community.   I totally agree with you that men and women are different, and have different strengths, and are better able to contribute to different fields to various degrees.   wasalaamu alaykum

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
muslimah853
12/27/03 at 14:42:22
[slm] Community work of ladies to me means, dawah work, teaching kids and girls, doctor for ladies and counselling for ladies (psychological etc). Community work can certainly be those things, but there is no reason to pigeon-hole it to these professions only.  Where there is benefit, and benefit can have a wide meaning, that's where Muslims should work...male or female.  Even if men have the obligation to earn a living, they should be doing something that is positively contributing to humanity...not necessarily only the Muslim community.  At least wherever possible.  I think that's part of the problem I have with this whole thing.  Regardless of your gender, there is an obligation to use the talents that you have been blessed with for the worship of Allah and in the service of His creation.  Different people are blessed with different gifts.  As high a station as motherhood is, that is not the definition of being a woman.  Allah didn't say that He created women to be wives and mothers.  He says that human beings were created to worship Him...and that can take many forms for different people.  For some people that's in raising a family, for some people it's working in clinic providing health care to the needy, for some it's writing poetry which inspires others to remember Allah, what have you.  It's usually a mixture of several things.  People are not these simplistic, one dimensional beings.  I am a wife and a stay at home mother myself, but that is not the sum total of who I am.  It is but one aspect of my being--one thing which I do for Allah.   But I have interests, abilities, and hopefully contributions to make outside of that--which I also spend my time and effort on.   And, I'm probably going to start a whole other argument here, but why should sisters be limited to teaching only kids and girls (maybe you mean women?)?  If they have the requisite knowledge, why can't they teach men too?  Certainly, the sahaba learned from our mother Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her and them, and in succeeding generations, you will find that most of the classical scholars had women teachers in various disciplines.

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Nomi
12/28/03 at 03:20:16
[slm] [quote author=muslimah853 link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=60#68 date=12/27/03 at 14:42:22] And, I'm probably going to start a whole other argument here, but why should sisters be limited to teaching only kids and girls (maybe you mean women?)?  If they have the requisite knowledge, why can't they teach men too?  Certainly, the sahaba learned from our mother Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her and them, and in succeeding generations, you will find that most of the classical scholars had women teachers in various disciplines. [/quote] Not agreed, can fully defend my view but i think no logic is gonna convince ppl "for now" (may be later) i'm out of this discussion after this post. (just one hint..... aisha [ra] was the ONLY learned lady back then in issues that were *not* known to others also sahabah were not allowed to marry mothers of the believers which is "one" attribute of mahrams.) [quote author=muslimah853 link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=60#68 date=12/27/03 at 14:42:22]Community work of ladies to me means, dawah work, teaching kids and girls, doctor for ladies and counselling for ladies (psychological etc). [/quote] Thats my definition of "community work" for ladies. [slm] Your brother.
12/28/03 at 04:28:54
Nomi

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
UmmWafi
12/28/03 at 10:46:42
[slm] [quote author=Nomi link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=60#62 date=12/26/03 at 01:14:25][slm] Community work of ladies to me means, dawah work, teaching kids and girls, doctor for ladies and counselling for ladies (psychological etc)..[/quote] Actually dear brother, within these lines reside two very powerful words that hold the key to the resolution of this thread. Wassalam

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Matheerah
12/28/03 at 13:29:12
[quote author=Nomi link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=60#66 date=12/26/03 at 23:34:01][slm] To your amazement respected sis, "Mr. Bean" that we are talkig about here was a Muslim....... hm........ ask us how... Since you dint reply to my Q? so lets just not be the judge as to what the moderate path is. Because it was sending out an impression (i know you did not mean it) that Sahaba, tabi'een, taba tabi'een and salaaf were not on the moderate path, Allah Forbid. [slm][/quote] You misunerstand me  brother, if i may, i would rather explain this properly later, at the moment, time is short for me as i have to go soon. if you forgive me for this. sorry i did not understand the reason of your qoute, but rushing in reading does make you mis-understand what others are trying to say, my mistake, ???  so.... if you accept my apology? :)

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Abu_Hamza
12/30/03 at 17:15:50
You know, it's interesting that the original article which was the basis for this thread (and subsequently this thread itself) is called "The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Career Women Over 25," and not "The Career Challenge for the Married Muslim Woman." Why isn't there an article on that topic?   ::) Something to think about   :-[ Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah.
12/30/03 at 17:16:50
Abu_Hamza

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
faisalsb
01/03/04 at 02:40:12
[slm] I am replying a little late but I think it's never too late particularly if you intend to contribute to something good. I personally think the article what we are talking about is vague, unclear and pointless in it's very nature. And so were the replies except some. Particulary I would like to mention about Sister Amtuallah's post I think she really talked about the real topic. I think the auther has cleverly tried to mixup secular, social and cultural things with Islamic teachings and at the end she even tried to justy the first mention things through second mentioned one. I think the working women of today's so called modern world can be divided into three catagories and each of them should be looked at accordingly: 1) The women who are involved in dawa, missionary, social and welfare     work without any greed of money, other materialistic things or reward 2) The women who have to work to support their families or themselves 3) The women who work for money, to have better living standard or any     kind of other materialistic ambitions The working women who are involved in first kind of work or jobs certainly deserve a great respect since that's the work and mission of Prophets, Sadaqeen and Salheen. And if anyone has prejudice towards them due to their work or they are considered less qualified to be a good wives then I'll say those people must stop for a while and think where we are heading exactly and what should be our direction as a good muslim. Since such work is proved through Islam and carry a great reward in this world and hereafter. And there is long list of such women who participated in such kind of work during the time of Holy Prophet  [saw] and in the era of Khulfa-e-Rashdeen. For instance Hazrat Aisha (RAU) took part in Jahaad, she fed water and provided medical aid to male sahabis. She even led a war in the time of Hazrat Ali (RAU) although that's a controversial topic but what I am trying to say is depending on the nature of work women can come out of home and perform non-traditional things which are only men are supposed to do. And if someone look down at such women for any reason then we should pray for such people. Second type of working women are the one who have to work due to some compulsion either she is orphan, have drug addicted husband or widow. Such women also deserve respect since they selected the respectfull way instead of depending on other's handouts. Again I think there is no reason to look down on such women or consider them less qualified for marriage. Third type of the women are who work to have better living standard, have latest model cars or for sake of any other materialistic ambitions. Most of the scholars are agreed that women can be involved in this type of work with conditions applied that if hijab and other working circumstances don't lead to any haram thing. And offcourse all other conditions which are applied to men also as paying of Zakat etc I personally think this is the type of women what the auther of the article was actually talking about but she cleverly tried to mix it up with earlier mentioned types. And she tried to prove that men are hyporite and insincere while not considering such women for marriage. I think both men and women do have right to give prefrence to the people whose main ambition of life is life after this life and not this temporary world. And the women who prefer to stay at home for sake of their religion and to avoid fitna are certainly better than the ones who are exposed to all kind of fitnas just for sake of materialistic gains. And I don't think anyone has right to criticize anyone's personal preference which is based on Quran and Sunnah. As Holy Prophet  [saw] said: Volume 7, Book 62, Number 27: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "A woman is married for four things, i.e., her wealth, her family status, her beauty and her religion. So you should marry the religious woman (otherwise) you will be a losers. Allah knows the best ....

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
gift
01/05/04 at 08:03:18
[slm] Just another point to think about - what about those career muslimahs who are ready and willing to get married, but haven't / can't once they reach 25/over because their parents have simply started looking for potential husbands too late! Muslim parents want their daughters to excel academically and professionally.  Often however, once their beloved daughters reach the stage where they have fulfilled their parents' expectations they have reached, or are over the age of 25 and parents are finding it difficult to find husbands for their daughters. Why? Because many muslim men who are aged 25/over are indeed focusing their attentions on muslimahs who are aged 20-22.  During my last year at university, I noticed that all my muslimah friends in the years below me (ie they were between the ages of 20 and 22) were at various stages in the marriage process - ie engaged, soon to be married, married etc.  Those of us who aren't even 25 yet are intensifying our dua's to Allah swt for sabr fearing that we too may never get married :( ::) (and marriage is after all half of the deen). Just my ramblings.... ::) [wlm]
01/06/04 at 04:05:37
gift

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
tahirah
01/05/04 at 20:22:57
hmmm seems to be a hot topic...but I have a couple of questions:   -For those women who want to get married after they have established their career, what is the age at wich you would idealy like to get married...and if it is not a specific age, then at what stage in your life (if you want to get married at all) I split the rest of Tahira's post to Secular Education First? topic.[link=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=sis;action=display;num=1073399349] This Thread[/link] by Kathy.
01/06/04 at 09:34:23
Kathy

Re: The Marriage Challenge for Single Muslim Caree
Madinat
01/06/04 at 18:44:22
[quote author=tahirah link=board=sis;num=1071574512;start=70#75 date=01/05/04 at 20:22:57]hmmm seems to be a hot topic...but I have a couple of questions:   -For those women who want to get married after they have established their career, what is the age at wich you would idealy like to get married...and if it is not a specific age, then at what stage in your life (if you want to get married at all) [/quote] now thanks. ;D now that i'm finished with school (a residential college, hard to get married while in school there, though there was a married kenyan sister in the class above me) i can focus on house and h ome.  dealing with schoolwork is hard enough when you're young and single, but it's nearly impossible when trying to maintain a healthy home.  my mother was able to do it, but my sister somehow can't.  i don't want what happened to my sister to happen to me, so i needed to be finished with school FIRST. i'll finish this post in the secular education thread ;)
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