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| Help again - ahadeeth rejecter ! |
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| tq |
| 12/30/03 at 08:54:02 |
| Assalamo elikuim Yet again I have met somebody who is very well versed in Quran but says that there is no authenticy in ahadeeth. According to him Allah swt promised to protect Quran only not ahadeeth therefore they are corrupted or if not then are definitely not reliable. I have told them about Salah they said that no it was established since Prophet Ibrahim's time. THen again they showed some ahadeeth from Sahih Bukhari. The first one isi Volume 1, Book 5, Number 251: Narrated Abu Salama: 'Aisha's brother and I went to 'Aisha and he asked her about the bath of the Prophet. She brought a pot containing about a Sa' of water and took a bath and poured it over her head and at what time there was a screen between her and us. When they showed this I told him that there was a screen and also may be we havent understood it properly . ANyway there doesnt seem to be anything wrong in it and their reply was "As for your opinion on Hazrat Ayesha RA showing how to bathe, I don't agree. I understand it is a matter of perspective. One can rationalize anything they want to. We see it done every day in politics between countries. What we have to do is to see if it makes sense and is reasonable in the light of Quran. To me it makes absolutely no sense at any level. The question is trivial, though one can say that in those days water was scarce, hence the question. But to show it by pouring over your head makes no sense. If there was a screen then what is the point of actually taking a bath. " The second one Volume 7, Book 62, Number 89: Narrated Anas: The Prophet stayed for three days at a place between Khaibar and Medina, and there he consummated his marriage with Safiyya bint Huyay. I invited the Muslims to a banquet which included neither meat nor bread. The Prophet ordered for the leather dining sheets to be spread, and then dates, dried yogurt and butter were provided over it, and that was the Walima (banquet) of the Prophet. The Muslims asked whether Safiyya would be considered as his wife or as a slave girl of what his right hands possessed. Then they said, "If the Prophet screens her from the people, then she Is the Prophet's wife but if he does not screen her, then she is a slave girl." So when the Prophet proceeded, he made a place for her (on the camel) behind him and screened her from people. Volume 7, Book 62, Number 23: Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle manumitted Safiyya and regarded her manumission as her Mahr. They showed this and when I said that this only shows that Prophets wives were required to cover completely , they said that The hadeeth about Hazrat Saffiya, the point was not about covering, it was about the mention of her being possibly a slave girl. Quranically, there is no such thing, you can not make any one, including captives of war your slaves. The next hadeeth about manumitting (freeing her) as part of her mehr makes the part of her being a slave clear. Prophet Mohammad SA could never do anything against the Quran. Also, contrary to the scores of ahadeeth which portray him as marrying out desire, Nabi-e-kareem married most of his wives for providing them shelter as they were widows) Also they said that there is no authentic seerah. And said that the first one written which should be most reliable showed these passages. Ibn Hesham was the original biographer, his original writing does not exist anymore. Ibn Ishaq wrote an abridged version, basing his biography on the work of ibn hesham. I have seen Islamic books quoting from ibn hesham, which I assume is through ibn ishaq's and tabari's works. (for example ibn hesham's Al-Serah Al-Nabaweyyah is quoted on this site. http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-6.htm) Ibn Ishaq's work is available through any islamic bookstore such as halalco.com which has The Life Of Muhammad (Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul ...) translated by A Guillaume. (http://www.halalco.com/seerah.html) The passage out of ibn hesham's work that I was referring to is: "Would you please tell me when the spirit comes to you?" When Muhammad told her of the spirit's arrival, Khadija said "Muhammad, sit on my left thigh." Muhammad sat on her left thigh. "Do you see the spirit?" She asked. "Yes." "Then sit on my right thigh." Muhammad sat on her right thigh. "Do you see the spirit?" she asked. "Yes," he answered. "Then sit on my lap." Muhammad sat on her lap. "Do you see the spirit?" She asked. "Yes," he answered. Khadija uncovered a feminine part of her body while Muhammad was sitting on her lap. "Do you see the spirit?" "No,” he answered. Then Khadija said, "Muhammad, that spirit is an angel, not a devil" (Ibn Hesham, part 2, pages 74, 75). Is this correct , I have never read/ heard this version of first reveleation. I would really appreciate if somebody could shed a light on it so that I can increase my knowledge . Jazak Allah Khair Wasalam tq PS: I read the thread "met a smart guy" and the replies their were very helpfull specially Sr. NuralAin replies may Allah swt increase our knowledge and iman Ameen |
| Re: Help again - ahadeeth rejecter ! |
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| se7en |
| 01/01/04 at 10:34:15 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah, I'm asking some people a bit more knowledgeable about the first text that was quoted, but I think this is a matter of trying to address the symptoms of a problem, instead of the problem itself. Opening up a translated work of Bukhari, and finding a text that doesn't seem to make much sense to us is not a reason to reject the ahadeeth in totality. First of all, we have to keep in mind that we are reading a *translation* of a text, sometimes a poor translation of a text, and for the most part we do not know its context, its full meaning, or its implications. Further, there may be socio-cultural reasons why we are not able to comprehend or accept some things that may have been the norm in the time of the Prophet [saw]. There are so many reasons why we may come across a text, or a group of texts, that seem questionable, and yet, still, this is not reason enough to reject the texts as a whole. If we receive a letter from a King, we may not like its content, but that doesn't give us the right to deny who its from. or put in simpler terms - circumstantial evidence makes for a poor case :) The second issue - it is incorrect to state that "Quranically" there is no such thing as a slave girl. There are many places in the Qur'an that mention 'those whom your right hand possess' - namely, slaves. Obviously, this type of slavery is not the dehumanizing and utterly exploitative type that was enacted by European countries in the 19th and 20th centuries.. but the relatively humane type that was a reality in pre-modern societies. The Qur'an did not abolish slavery, but regulated it so that it was an institution that was practiced with justice and fairness, encouraging manumission, equitable treatment, allowing slaves to marry, etc. and this was further articulated by the sunnah of the Prophet [saw]. If you would like me to elaborate on this point and quote ayaat, I can do that. About the authoritativeness of the works of seerah, Ibn Hisham's book, the earliest work of seerah, is indeed debated. However, we do not take the ahadeeth from the books of seerah, so I think this is a moot point. Allahu a'lam wasalaamu alaykum, se7en |
| 01/01/04 at 10:35:49 |
| se7en |
| Re: Help again - ahadeeth rejecter ! |
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| se7en |
| 01/01/04 at 12:20:35 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah, Here is Sh. Muhammad Al-Shareef's response when I asked him about that first hadeeth, from [url=http://forums.almaghrib.org/index.php?]the AlMaghrib forum[/url]: [color=black] Bismillaah. Jazakum Allahu Khayr for your question. The 'bath' hadith is a popular hadith that rejecters of the Sunnah quote. There is one more hadith that they quote and they base their entire argument, their ENTIRE reject-the-Sunnah argument, on these two hadith. Propaganda. I would say in reply to him, 'So?' And make a 'duh?' face. Then keep quiet let him explain more and say it again, 'So?' and make 'duh?' face. [OR ask for more then the 2 hadith examples, they do not have any more] It is a psychological technique to put the person back in the passenger seat. By following his 'reject the Sunnah' misunderstandings, he will just be driving you left and right. You have to stay in the drivers seat of the conversation. I've encountered people like this. One guy said that Uthman didn't burn the Mushafs because it just doesn't seem 'logical'? Seriously, I said to him, "Do you really think that history just changes because you don't understand something? Perhaps it is better for you to keep quiet and say 'Allahu 'alam' then to transgress your position and cancel history everytime you don't understand it." He stared at me shocked and after a little explanation of the issue, he smiled a BIG smile and said to me, "Ma sha Allah! Brother can you give Khutbah in our Masjid. I've been looking for someone to guide me for so long!" In sha Allah, when the AlMaghrib Fiqh AdDa'wah CDs become available around March 2004, you'll get this technique and a thousand others on how to give Da'wah. Bi idhnillah, I hope you'll find it beneficial. [/color] hehe..definitely looking forward to the cd's.. wasalaamu alaykum |
| 01/01/04 at 12:22:03 |
| se7en |
| Re: Help again - ahadeeth rejecter ! |
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| tq |
| 01/05/04 at 11:49:24 |
| Assalamo elikuim Thanks you Sr. Seven - as always your reply is very accurate and ful of knowledge. Wasalam tq PS: Definitely looking forward for the CDs. |
| Re: Help again - ahadeeth rejecter ! |
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| tq |
| 01/07/04 at 12:09:53 |
| Assalamo elikuim I email them the above reply and along here is the reply I got "Actually I agree with you on the topic of slavery. About the system set in motion by Allah and his Messenger through Quran to steadily and eventually kill the system of slavery. I think you misunderstood my point. The term "Ma Malakat Aimanuhum/Aimanukum" is in past tense. What "Your right hand possessed". Quran set in motion the practice of freeing the people under the right hand, or marrying them (to oneself or others). It doesn't say anywhere in the Quran to acquire more slaves. Captives of war are to be freed either for ransom or as an act of kindness (See 47:4) " Would really apreciate any reply (Sr. Seven perhaps ? :)) Waslam tq |
| Re: Help again - ahadeeth rejecter ! |
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| jannah |
| 01/07/04 at 13:17:55 |
| [wlm] There are a lot of things mentioned in the Quran in past tense. But they are meant to be present for us. Like when talking about the Day of J, some things are in the past! This is because there is linear time for us, but not for Allah. So to use that as an argument doesn't really work.. although I'd agree that all the injunctions in Islam are towards regulating and limiting slavery. Also it's kind of ridiculous to go back and re-interpret what the Quran says against all what the prophet [saw] did and the sahabah. Who are more likely to understand what the injunctions meant, us or them? That's like saying the prophet [saw] didn't understand the Quran! astaghfirullah |
| Re: Help again - ahadeeth rejecter ! |
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| tq |
| 01/10/04 at 13:14:47 |
| Assaalmo elikuim Thanks Sr. Jannah. Actually their claim is that they do believe in Rasul Allah but not in ahadith since they were written 200 years after Rasul Allah. therefore only Quran is authentic and to be followed. Could some please explain these ahadeeth to me - Jazak Allah Khair :) They are from Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 63, Number 182: Narrated Abu Usaid: We went out with the Prophet to a garden called Ash-Shaut till we reached two walls between which we sat down. The Prophet said, "Sit here," and went in (the garden). The Jauniyya (a lady from Bani Jaun) had been brought and lodged in a house in a date-palm garden in the home of Umaima bint An-Nu'man bin Sharahil, and her wet nurse was with her. When the Prophet entered upon her, he said to her, "Give me yourself (in marriage) as a gift." She said, "Can a princess give herself in marriage to an ordinary man?" The Prophet raised his hand to pat her so that she might become tranquil. She said, "I seek refuge with Allah from you." He said, "You have sought refuge with One Who gives refuge. Then the Prophet came out to us and said, "O Abu Usaid! Give her two white linen dresses to wear and let her go back to her family." Narrated Sahl and Abu Usaid: The Prophet married Umaima bint Sharahil, and when she was brought to him, he stretched his hand towards her. It seemed that she disliked that, whereupon the Prophet ordered Abu Usaid to prepare her and to provide her with two white linen dresses. (See Hadith No. 541). Note from them: Surqati is translated as 'ordinary man' QALAT, "HAL TAHABUL MALIKATU NAFSAHA LISSURQATI? However, Sariq (SRQ) means a robber. 2nd one. Volume 7, Book 62, Number 48: Narrated Hisham's father: Khaula bint Hakim was one of those ladies who presented themselves to the Prophet for marriage. 'Aisha said, "Doesn't a lady feel ashamed for presenting herself to a man?" But when the Verse: "(O Muhammad) You may postpone (the turn of) any of them (your wives) that you please,' (33.51) was revealed, " 'Aisha said, 'O Allah's Apostle! I do not see, but, that your Lord hurries in pleasing you.' " The following two are from Abu Dawud Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4396: Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah: A thief was brought to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him). He said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said: CUT OFF HIS HAND. SO HIS (RIGHT) HAND WAS CUT OFF. He was brought a second time and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said: CUT OFF HIS FOOT. SO HIS (LEFT) FOOT WAS CUT OFF. He was brought a third time and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! So he said: CUT OFF HIS HAND. (SO HIS (LEFT) HAND WAS CUT OFF.) He was brought a fourth time and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! So he said: CUT OFF HIS FOOT. SO HIS (RIGHT) FOOT WAS CUT OFF. HE WAS BROUGHT A FIFTH TIME AND HE SAID: KILL HIM. So we took him away and killed him. We then dragged him and cast him into a well and threw stones over him. According to them the above ahadith shows that Prophet used to take action without thinking. Muslim Book 004, Number 1212: 'A'isha reported: The Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) entered my house when a Jewess was with me and she was saying: Do you know that you would be put to trial in the grave? The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) trembled (on hearing this) and said: It is the Jews only who would-be put to trial. 'A'isha said: We passed some nights and then the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Do you know that it has been revealed to me:" You would be put to trial in the grave"? 'A'isha said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) seeking refuge from the torment of the grave after this. According to them since there is no mention of trail of grave in Quran therefore all the ahadeeth mentioning them are fabricated, they say that the trail will start on the Day of Judgement , not from grave. Any explanation will be appreciated - Jazak Allah khair Wasalam tq |
| Re: Help again - ahadeeth rejecter ! |
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| jannah |
| 01/10/04 at 13:44:41 |
| wlm, sister tq, you know what... i wouldn't bother going into these arguments with them anymore. saying that they believe in the prophet [s] but not the hadith is ridiculous, Quran is in itself mutawatir hadith, hadith were there from the beginning and written but not collected -- same thing with Quran. and since when are we dependent on things written down? we are first and foremost an oral society that highly prizes memorization which is authentically much higher than the authenticity of writing. but basically if you have that premise that you don't believe in hadith then no arguments about specific hadiths is going to change your mind AND it is quite easy to take out ANY hadith and make up these "points" on how wrong it is. they will probably go through every hadith in bukhari with you!!! bringing up their so-called "points". so dunno i just feel like there's so much to do dawah wise and debating over each single hadith's case and putting you on the defensive to defend each of these hadith when they have no scholarly background in islam, arabic or understanding has little benefit to you or them... it's like arguing with someone over prayer when they don't believe in God.. Allahu alam.. i've been through it before on the net and i just find it sucks up alot of time like arguing with missionaries.. in general i think we should switch our battle plan from defense to fortifying muslims with knowledge and stuff.. but that's a whole other thread!! :) anyway just some thoughts.. i think bhaloo does alot of arguing with missionaries and anti-hadith ppl and stuff so maybe he can tell us his experience.. |
| Re: Help again - ahadeeth rejecter ! |
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| Maliha |
| 01/10/04 at 14:16:19 |
| [slm] Tq, i have been refraining from writing a response, because the anti hadithites in my experience have a lot more issues than simply rejecting ahadith. We took a hadith sciences class, which mesmerized me in terms of the work put into analysis and consolidation of each hadith. The Isnaad system, the character analysis (jarh wa Ta'dil), the systematic way each text was scrutinized was unparallelled in history. No other religion can begin to claim the amount of sheer scholarly criticism applied to our hadiths and of course a classification system developed that should leave no question in the mind of the unlearned and ignorant.... While this class reinforced *my* belief and confidence in the system, the same material was taken in by another student who has been kinda bragging since then "i have a lot of ISSUES with ahadith"...no amount of debates, or explanations could help this sister understand the flaws in her own arguments...i had another relative who had similar questions (he got converted to anti hadithism on the internet!??! sheesh..) anywho, after writing much to him, i felt like i was going in a spiral of needless defensiveness and debates that resulted in nothing. There is a really good book by Azami called I think "intro to hadith sciences" or sumthing like that. It is really awesome in explaining the basic fundamentals of what compromises this intricate science...any intro class by a good scholar should remove any doubts one has...unless they have "other" issues..which leave one to simply pray for their hidayah and that's the best that most of us can do. your sis in struggle, :-) [wlm] |
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