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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| ijma ,qiyas and ijtihad? |
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| yumna |
| 01/03/04 at 12:15:52 |
| [slm]to all i would realllyy apprecaite if some1 would explain 2 me correctly wat is IJMA, IJTIHAD, QIYAS? ok these r source of islamic law or shariah but not authentic ones so does that mean they rn't allowed we had a teacher scholar (a verryy learned one and he left our skool :'( :'( ) and i really liekd him a teacherly way ..and ...the point is he didn't agree with these sources and well... didn't agree with them however he taught us as its comin in olevels and all but ...im really confuesd can any1 give tell me about it ! |
| Re: ijma ,qiyas and ijtihad? |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 01/03/04 at 13:27:07 |
| [slm] ijma is consensus, like when the schollars reach consensus on an isue and it becomes the orthodox way to see it. Qiyas is analogy drawn form Quran or sunna when an issue hasnt been alredy dealt with directly. You have to try to find things that match as best you can and think about the situation and then apply waht you come up with the best you can. Ijtihad is the same thing or similar to Qiyas, it is called personal reasoning, to be aplied when you dont have a clear answer from any other source. Some people say you can always find an answer somewhere and you dont need to go there but I suspect them of plyaing word games, personally, but this is not a consensus opinion. to safely use any of these practices you have to know a whole lot, and understand it, except the first one, then everyone in agreement has to know a whole lot and know what it means. So it can be a big can of worms to get into it. there was a man who brought islam to the American Indians back in the 1870's or so. They really took to it but went straight for qyas and ijtihad since this is basically what Indian chiefs do. Maybe its because of us some people dont like it. Its hard for us to prove to others that we are muslims sometimes. I personally dont think it is any more or less crooked than the other way of going about islam, Its just differently focused. I see people crash themselves in all Islams. But our way of it really freaked out the gov. and the Indians think it was mostly because of us that all the kids got sent to mission school. But in mission school it spread from child to child and developed into something that was best suited to child aquisition. But we couldnt use all the words, no one beleived anyone who told them that these words weremt indian languages and they got lost for the most part. They are preserved a little in mission school english but are hard to pinpoint because they are too unconcious for us speakers. ah, but I'm wandering, hope that helps, al-ajnabia |
| Re: ijma ,qiyas and ijtihad? |
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| Matheerah |
| 01/03/04 at 19:45:19 |
| [slm] Strange sister, you ask real deep questions, yes i remember studing about these three things Ijam'a, Ijtihaad and Qiyaas, and its difficult hard stuff, are you by any chance studing if you dont mind me asking? :) |
| Re: ijma ,qiyas and ijtihad? |
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| Matheerah |
| 01/03/04 at 19:47:02 |
| I meant to say studing Alimah course sorry. |
| Re: ijma ,qiyas and ijtihad? |
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| timbuktu |
| 01/03/04 at 22:40:07 |
| [quote author=al-ajnabia link=board=lighthouse;num=1073150153;start=0#1 date=01/03/04 at 13:27:07] ............ there was a man who brought islam to the American Indians back in the 1870's or so. They really took to it but went straight for qyas and ijtihad since this is basically what Indian chiefs do. Maybe its because of us some people dont like it. Its hard for us to prove to others that we are muslims sometimes. I personally dont think it is any more or less crooked than the other way of going about islam, Its just differently focused. I see people crash themselves in all Islams. But our way of it really freaked out the gov. and the Indians think it was mostly because of us that all the kids got sent to mission school. But in mission school it spread from child to child and developed into something that was best suited to child aquisition. But we couldnt use all the words, no one beleived anyone who told them that these words weremt indian languages and they got lost for the most part. They are preserved a little in mission school english but are hard to pinpoint because they are too unconcious for us speakers. ah, but I'm wandering, hope that helps, al-ajnabia[/quote] well, that is very, very interesting. can you tell us more of the history of your people & how would such people differ from other muslims? |
| Re: ijma ,qiyas and ijtihad? |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 01/04/04 at 14:06:47 |
| [slm] well, the biggest difference is that we have descended from children taken from their parents. We didnt get to memorize verse numbers or transmission lines. We had to make due wituout constant access to texts. I have heard about this concept called Qurans of the Heart, that illeterate peoples have that guide them and are based on the written quran, though often they are in translation into the native languages of the peoples who have them. We have one of those. I was discovered to be receptive to learning this so my uncle (one of my father's many brothers) taught me all he knew of it, then had me talk to others. He would not let anyone who had read the writtn form talk to me unless they had studied from their own parents and they had also asimilated into American culture. We didnt know a whole lot about the politcal systems that guided the practice of islam in other countries, but we did know the stories of castaways who had washed up on american shores and the stories of people who had been children when the moors were driven from spain. We also had the history of a people from Tibet who had worked as mercinaries for the ottomans durring thier conquests. They had fought for free, stipulating that they woud have their pay in the world that was fully in sumission to islamic rule. When the ottomans were satisfied with what they held they abandoned them and came to america, feeling they had been ripped off. In later years we have seen time and time again that when we aproch a masjid we are turned away from it, while the children of those who persicuted us are welcomed. We have come to think of it this way: They, knowing nothing og the Quran will accept what they are told and wont aske truely hard questions, they can be made ito whatever tose in powere want. We on the other hand are battle hard from infancy we have our soldiers quran engraved in our hearts. though it is pleasing to hear the word read in its written form, when we ask about the finer meanings and the questins we have faced in utter aplication of every word, we are screamed at, belittled and in the worst of cases called apostates ad dealt with acordingly. Many have heedlessly gone to muslim countries only to be enslaved because they are regarded as apostates. Though they were only seeking clarification of a few points that they werent sure they had just right. Those who have had benifit of muslim rule, they have never faced the things we have seen, and havent bothered to think of them. Latley we have been feeling tha twe have been know all along. ThaT among those who have been persecuting us have been our more lucky brethren. Those that see us as a threat, becuse we know how to found islam inn a persons innate heart and therfore we relieve the need to seek guidace form others in every issue. This blocks a rout of manipulation of words, and gives anyone a right to thier own opinion. We are structured so that those who are able think for themselves and those who are less able look for more and more quidance. Some just have to do what they are told im mostly everything, however this number is proportionally smaller thatn in most forms of islam. We suffer a long time those people who have abandoned our way untill we are utterly certain that they are not going to be shown their error by anything that we can do for them. There is no single action that can tell us that a person has no hope at all. we really dont judge at all, but there comes a point where a person becomes a compleat threat to the lives of others, and they therefore must be restrained. We dont think those who can quote are better than us or know anything more valuable than waht we know. Unless they know how to aply what they are saying inthe fight for the right to serve no one but Allah and to live as human beings upon the earth it has no value. We are the dust bin of islam, whenever a muslim society chosses a wealthy or powerful one who doesnt accept that he must do any religious thing unless it is visible and someone is watching we are what they throw away. The man who came to the indians was the son of a hashemite prince and a princes from the nejd. when she died, his father was given an ultimatum, either the boy vanishes and never was, or you can give up your claim on the throne of the hijaz. So he was sent to live in A region of Tibet called Kham. His relatives there had been subsumed by the budhists and kept islam a secret, but they taught it to him. When he was getting to that age when they could not trust him to keep the secret they made him go on a trip. they wanted him to go to china and form there back to Arabia, but he didnt want to go to china, his mother had been discendad form a family form china and he believed that was why his fater had sent him away. He spoke german, and had read german papers about the indian wars. He was especially interested in Sitting Bull. He wanted to go to america and meet him. Its a long story but he ran way and was mistaken for a chneese and refused to be called taht so the said then he must be indian and sent him to a kiiowa reservation in Texas. One time he slipped formthe reservation and went to see Sitting bull. My first ancestor in mission school whas a child concieved on that visit and was also a descendant form sitting bull. He had a lot of children among them my father and my uncle. My uncle was raised by one of his aunts who was a descendant of the former mercenaries she rased a lot of her brothers chlidren. but not my fater. His mother was a descendat of all the chiefs of the indian wars plus the emperial aztecs. My mothers father was a college student when the hashemites ruled iraq. one day he was jeallous of his relatives who had royal connection and told somone when they would all be togeather. That ws the end of hashemite rule in iraq. My father's mother had been 12 when he was concieved, he met my mother when she was about the same age(she answered his personal add in a journal). I was sold as a delacacy in Paris china town the day I was born, but watching, my fmily with ties to china were able to keep me alive, I came to america when I was five, but I was small. My uncle's step daughter was looking for her baby, who was dead, but she didnt know it. She took me from my foster home, and using crooked judges retained custody until I was grown. He ignoored me the first year or so, before I spoke to him one day in hmong (similar to tibetan) because I had heard him speaking tibetan (he grew up near the kiowas). Then he bagan to know what he had in his house. And the more I talked to him the more he eventually told me. |
| Re: ijma ,qiyas and ijtihad? |
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| Anonymous |
| 01/04/04 at 17:06:30 |
| Dear Sister Yumna, Wa-alaikum assalam wa rahmatullah. This is my second post today, after almost two years! It is only because you have asked about one of my most passionate areas of interest that I cannot resist writing! Yet I am on a tight deadline, so I must be brief! I ask a favour of you: since I am writing this off the cuff, please verify what I have written, for I may – unintentionally – have made a mistake. Not because it is something very difficult, but because I am writing quickly. Especially with any examples I cite. This is quite a basic area of usul al-fiqh, so what I am about to write really should not elicit any kind of controversy. Firstly, whoever taught you that these sources of Islamic Law are not authentic was wrong, and has revealed that they don’t really know the subject too well either I’m afraid. That is not meant as an insult. But just because one disagrees, it is not an excuse to teach what you have been taught. Especially on this. Ijtihad is not a source of law, it is a process. This is elementary from any reliable basic book on the subject. Since I am rushed I lack the time to provide you sources to confirm my answers, but if you bear with me a few days (sorry), I will return and provide you a fuller reply, with references for you to look up, so you don’t have to take my word for it. Indeed there are sources of law which are not agreed upon, such as ‘urf [custom] and others. But both ‘ijma and qiyas are accepted across the board as authentic. A very few individual scholars may have questioned ‘ijma and/or qiyas, but their arguments were not upheld by the majority, so it is not a lie, or misleading to say that these two sources are authentic. To start delving into why your teacher said they were not authentic sources would make this more complicated than it needs to be, although I appreciate that you know your teacher whereas I am a total stranger. ‘Ijma means consensus. It occurs when consensus is reached on a particular point of law. So there are things in Islam which there is ‘ijma upon. Such as the ‘ijma of the Noble Companions, radhi’Allahu ‘anhum, about the compilation of the Qur’an. To go against ‘ijma is very dangerous, for it basically means you are going against something that the ‘Ulema have reached agreement about. In some cases this can take a Muslim outside of Islam. ‘Ijma is an extremely strong proof in the law because of the fact that if it has occurred then it means there is no disagreement about it. There are different types of ‘ijma too, such as ‘ijma of the Ummah, ‘ijma of the ‘Ulema, etc. Some of the subdivisions of ‘ijma are differed on, but not ‘ijma itself as a concept. Qiyas is often translated as analogy or analogical reasoning. This is not the best way to translate it as qiyas is actually more than just analogy. Qiyas encompasses different types of reasoning too. So reasoning is a better translation. And example of qiyas would be the prohibition of date-wine, which was an analogy made with the prohibition of grape-wine, wallahu a’lam. This type of qiyas involves looking at a quality that exists in the original rule – in this case the quality of intoxicating – and transferring it to other substances which also have that same quality. So cocaine is also forbidden for it too intoxicates. Both ‘ijma and qiyas must be undertaken by a scholar of competence, commonly known as a mujtahid [the kind of scholar who is qualified and authorised to make ijtihad], not ordinarey Muslims with insufficient knowledge and training. Examples of famous mujtahid’s would be the eponyms of the four established madhhabs [schools of thought]. Ijtihad can be explained as the mujtahid’s [the one who makes ijtihad] effort in deriving the rule from the Sources of Law. So if, for example, a mujtahid says it is halal to transplant a pig’s heart into a human body, this would (or at least should) be based on ijtihad. Please note: that is not an actual example, I just made it up! Even ‘ijma is based on (the process of) ijtihad. It is an extremely high level of scholarship one has to be at to be able to undertake ijtihad. Ijtihad tends to occur on new issues (e.g. genetic engineering), and/or where the Islamic evidences can lead to divergent interpretations. This is a very basic overview, though these are very detailed and complex subjects. I hope I didn’t confuse you, and ask your forgiveness if I did not explain somethigns too well. And Allah ta’ala knows best. Your brother, Abu Khaled |
| Re: ijma ,qiyas and ijtihad? |
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| yumna |
| 01/05/04 at 04:43:24 |
| [slm]jazakAllah khair for ur replies i really needed help in this one ..o and sister matheera no im not doin any alima courses wish i could just rid all rubbish subjects like these physics and chemistry and maths and all :P and take alima course :-*instead but then again one needs do know basics of every field rite? so i posted this question as it is an important subject of GCE olevels "islamiat" papers and there is a whole section based on this topic thats why wanted to understand it before exams in May oo :(im sooo scared ! plz ppl pray for my exams i would really appreciate ur prayers and m in need of them m really scared .....(( shivers)) thank u all once again masalamz :-* |
| Re: ijma ,qiyas and ijtihad? |
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| yumna |
| 01/05/04 at 05:47:18 |
| [slm]again read PROPERLY ur posts and wanted 2 add this brother when u say these sources of islam r authentic how do u define authentic ? the sources which were used during the lifetime of prophet ie the holy Quran and ofcourse the sunnah of prophet or the sources in the mentioned inthe holy Quran for u see there is no ..(.ithink really not sure do correct me if im rong... ) mention of ijma qiyas and ijtihad is there? i guess when my teacher said these sources rn't authentic ones he meant that they rn'y mentioned in the Quran and though a slightly mentioned in hadith but solidly proved that it is an authentis source then again mayb he might be rong and ok maybe i guess ijma is allowed for prohetsaid "gather together the righteous ones among my nation and decide the matter by their councel and do not deciede by one man's opinion " and there is another but its long and can't type time coz there very less time where as Qiyas im not soo sure for u see i've read so many examples of Qiyas and they r ...rather extreme here r few which my teacher had found in some of his books 1 women should not cut their hair 2 the women should not come to eid prayer (it had specified beautiful women no whow can u call a women ugly all women r beautiful all men r beautiful wat?? iwas like ....::) 3 there is difference in the method of prayer for man and women while prophet himself had said to all muslims to pray like him and there was another about the person who isn't able to offer his prayer should give money/grains equal to sadqa-e-fitr ..where as as far as im concern those ppl who can't pray it isn't obligatory on them to ofer their prayers and give compensation for their missed paryers (do the suffering women pay money for the days they miss their prayers ? i don't think so) and besides most ppl (muslims )r in the opinion that the rite to make a law is only in the hands of the DivineBeing ijtihaad i agree with for hazrat umar has contributed alot in this source during his khilafat ...do u need 2 tell the exmples ...:) im kinda late for an appointment will post if felt it was necessary :) though yess i agrree its avery complicated source of islamic law...m still not that clear |
| Re: ijma ,qiyas and ijtihad? |
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| yumna |
| 01/05/04 at 06:58:19 |
| [slm]ooh i just found proper article in this book on this topic and plz i ask for forgiveness from every1 with whom i disagreed with i ..realize now i was at rong astaghfirullah ! may Allah forgive me for one secod i had really believed that these weren't real sources of islamic law ...i realize my sin and ask fro forgiveness ..how can disagree with the GR8 ulemas and cholars who r far more well versed in islam than me :'(anyway an i discovered that the e.g i gave were from the "corrupt" mulveez of the subcontinent .. :)anyway everythin clear now ..im thinkin not 2 do this question in exam u no leave it in choice if i can ;) gotta go wasted enuff time for 1 day |
| Re: ijma ,qiyas and ijtihad? |
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| amatullah |
| 01/05/04 at 07:53:57 |
| [wlm] sis yumna http://www.witness-pioneer.org/VSchool/Courses/ss101/Lectures.htm |
| Re: ijma ,qiyas and ijtihad? |
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| yumna |
| 01/06/04 at 08:45:11 |
| [slm] :-*ooo jazakAllah sista thats exactly wat i needed MAY ALLAH REWARD U WITH HIS BOUNTIES! o and about my exams just came home and wel.....it was reall easy .but there was soo less time i was scribblling away and about the articles of faith i didn't do so well didn't much hadith :'( :'(oooo im scared plz pray for me that i pass with good grade |
| Re: ijma ,qiyas and ijtihad? |
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| faisalsb |
| 01/11/04 at 03:01:52 |
| [slm] Well it sounds quite a scholarly and sophisticated discussion I am not qualified enough to comment on the topic but I think Ijma, Qiyas, Ijtihad or what ever you call it has an important role to play in our lives particularly about the matters which Quran and Sunnah are silent about. For instance once a problem was refered to Moullana Modoodi that there were two sisters whose backs or sides were joined togather and they were grown up in the way that while being attached togather they could easily manage to perform their daily routines togather. And except that disability or problem otherwise they were quite normal. They had reached the age of marriage and wanted to get married also but the problem was both of them couldn't be married to different men and according to Islam it was not allowed that two sisters are married to the same person in the same time. And there was risk in getting them seperate since they might not survive the operation. Moullana Modoodi gave the fatwa that they could be married to the same person and he was heavily criticized for his rulling. Recently we saw example of two Iranian sisters whose heads were joined togather they tried to get seperated but the operation was unsuccessful and both of them died. So I think in such cases the Islamic methods what we are talking about do have role to play. Wallah hu alam |
| 01/11/04 at 03:03:57 |
| faisalsb |
| Re: ijma ,qiyas and ijtihad? |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 01/11/04 at 12:34:37 |
| [slm] I found a verse in the quran once or a reference in the comentary to a hadith, I cant remember exactly how it went , and I havent been able to find it again though I know I've found it atleast twice before, wait just thought of something. looking up 4:29 Well, I think there is also another one but since there is also a hadith for this one here goes: When it was mentioned to the Prophet that Amr ibn al-As performed taymmum to cancel out his being a junub on a cold night while reciting "do not kill yourselves, for Allah is merciful to you"(4:29) the prophet did not censure him. I saw an iraqi and hes daughter performing wudu in a ditch as a cameral crew aproached and seeing them he broke off and left, his little daughter looked confused. I only saw this on the news and I asume he went and finished with tayammum, I think he did the right thing from what I've read in the quran and Hadith but I've read learned scholars say that wudu should always be performed if water is available. But I wonder if water is supposed to be considered available if it is in a tlevised location or in a dormatory bathroom where peoples boyfriends wander through. If a part of the quran had been abrogated in a certain situation by another part of the quran and also common sense says that holding a certain view based on the abrogated part and troubling others with it might cause them to make choices that kill them,caused into believing that they made thes choises based on the quran, who is responsible? |
| Re: ijma ,qiyas and ijtihad? |
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| yumna |
| 01/12/04 at 07:09:42 |
| [slm] i said in one of my early posts[quote]i ..realize now i was at rong astaghfirullah ! may Allah forgive me for one secod i had really believed that these weren't real sources of islamic law ...i realize my sin and ask fro forgiveness ..how can disagree with the GR8 ulemas and cholars who r far more well versed in islam than me anyway an i discovered that the e.g i gave were from the "corrupt" mulveez of the subcontinent .. anyway everythin clear now ..[/quote] i ask for forgiveness once again from the Divine being and those of His creatures whom i mite have offended plz ..somtimes i just say things which i don't mean at all and stuff which i don't mean ....ok? so plz i didn't mean 2 offend any1 here especially not the subcontinent in particular ok? o and thank u soo much for guiding me 2 the straight path bro nomi .. |
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