A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Kafir or not? |
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| amkamb |
| 02/03/04 at 12:44:06 |
| [slm], I met a muslim lady who is active in dawah work. While she talked she would mention some people and call them "kafir". For example, "This kafir comes up to me and says......." or "I was in Medina and it felt as if I was in a totally different world. You don't see a single kafir." I can't look into people's hearts or minds.....so I don't think I can ever say this one is kafir......this one is not. Only Allah knows the hearts of people. There may be women out there who wear veils/niqabs. But that does not mean they are believers. They could be hypocrites. And a woman may not wear the hijab or the niqab....but she may be more God-fearing and do good deeds in secret that only Allah knows about. Who knows? Hence, I feel you cannot call ANYONE a kafir. That only Allah knows. Indeed, what if you call someone a kafir.......and a few days later Allah guides that person and he or she becomes a Muslim....and YOU die as a kafir instead? |
| 02/04/04 at 14:49:30 |
| amkamb |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| bhaloo |
| 02/04/04 at 21:03:17 |
| [slm] Anyone that isn't a Muslim is a kafir (a non-believer). Sure one day they may become a believer (Muslim). http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=80 |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| MarineLiner |
| 02/04/04 at 23:14:38 |
| [slm][quote author=amkamb link=board=madrasa;num=1075830247;start=0#0 date=02/03/04 at 12:44:06] [slm], I met a muslim lady who is active in dawah work. . . . . . I can't look into people's hearts or minds..... . . . . . Hence, I feel you cannot call ANYONE a kafir. That only Allah knows. Indeed, what if you call someone a kafir.......and a few days later Allah guides that person and he or she becomes a Muslim....and YOU die as a kafir instead?[/quote][color=darkgreen]Good question. And for us, we have alQur-an and alHadits which we should refer to. As said in: [i]Suroh 33.alAhzab ayat 21: [IMG]http://www.wponline.org/vil/quran/arabic/33_21.gif[/IMG] 21. Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. [/i] Wallahu a'lam bishshowab.[/color] |
| 02/04/04 at 23:16:15 |
| MarineLiner |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| amkamb |
| 02/05/04 at 00:01:53 |
| [slm] , :o You guys miss my point. The lady was talking about people in Mecca and Medina.....saying you don't see a single kafir. How does she know who is kafir and who is not? Simply by appearance? |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 02/05/04 at 00:43:05 |
| [slm] Sr. amkamb, if that sister had said "You don't see a single non-Muslim" instead, would you still be writing this post? By kafir, that's probably all she meant. A person who does not associate him/herself with Islam (i.e. calls him/herself a Muslim). And if that's the case, then what's wrong with saying that one doesn't see any non-Muslims in Mecca and Medina? Isn't that the truth? Only Muslims are allowed to be in Mecca and Medina by law. Wassalamu alaikum |
| 02/05/04 at 00:44:11 |
| Abu_Hamza |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| se7en |
| 02/05/04 at 00:48:44 |
as salaamu alaykum, I understand the sister's point -- we use the work 'kaffir' as a slur, when it was never intended to be such, nor was it used by Rasulullah [saw] or our pious predecessors in such a way. It simply means, as has been mentioned, a person who is not Muslim. Dr. Abdul Hakeem Jackson gave a lecture on this topic at ISNA a few years ago.. it was very enlightening. wasalaamu alaykum |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| amkamb |
| 02/05/04 at 11:13:17 |
| [slm], Br. Abu Hamza, you are asking what is wrong with calling people "kafir". The lady in question came back to America, and at the airport, they met an officer who the lady's husband knew a long time ago. And she says....."This kafir comes up to my husband and embraces him." She seems to have a habit of calling people kafir. It is something I never came across before, and I certainly do not think it is proper for any of us muslims to use that word. "Kafir" means a person who does not believe. A person who has rejected the Truth. Now, how on earth do you know from the appearance of people if they are believers or not? That is something very much unseen. Let's say this lady meets a sister. She is not wearing a hijab. According to her usual talk, this lady will say, " I met a kafir the other day." And I find out the "kafir" she is talking about is a muslim sister. When we see any sister wearing a hijab, we know she is muslim. But if she is not, what then? Do you still go on and call her 'kafir"? I just object to the use of that word "kafir". Call people Christians, Jews, Hindus or atheists, or Buddhists......Sikhs or whatever. That is what they call themselves. But don't call them "kafir" even if you KNOW they are kafirs. :o |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| Nomi |
| 02/05/04 at 11:57:35 |
| [slm] [quote author=amkamb link=board=madrasa;num=1075830247;start=0#6 date=02/05/04 at 11:13:17]I just object to the use of that word "kafir". Call people Christians, Jews, Hindus or atheists, or Buddhists......Sikhs or whatever. That is what they call themselves. But don't call them "kafir" even if you KNOW they are kafirs. :o [/quote] Indeed the word kafir has become a slur and i dont like to use it either. I second that quoted part sis amkamb. [slm] Asim Zafar. |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| theOriginal |
| 02/05/04 at 12:33:30 |
| [slm] I agree...that word makes me cringe. People use it very freely, and it has been misdefined by many people. Also we live in a society where people are more exposed to Muslim vocabulary and it is just not taken well. In all honesty, there are alternatives to the word "kaafir"...ones that are more polite. And since adab is such an integral part of our deen....we should make an effort to perpetuate that whenever we can. The problem, sister, is that you can't approach this lady by saying "please don't use that word"...because there is a whole other set of people who don't understand the concept of how that word can be offensive (to non-muslims and muslims alike)... I had a thought the other day...so many people have so much knowledge about Islam, yet they have failed to reach the melting point. I am not saying that your friend has not...but there are so many people who lack the inherent quality of being able to FEEL the religion deeply. I don't think I have, either...but the longing to reach that melting point is something I make an effort for. And for me, my faith is sustained through that...and even that which sustains me is not guaranteed. That fact alone makes it easier to pray to Allah for things. Pardon the inability to articulate. Wasalaam. |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| amkamb |
| 02/05/04 at 13:12:25 |
| [slm] Sr. JustOne.....I'm trying to understand what you are saying. About the melting point. The ability to feel the religion. I think it has a lot to do with humility. And this is something I'm striving for. I would like to remove every bit of pride that may be in me, no matter how little. I am a muslim.........and proud to be muslim. But that does not mean I should look down on others who are not muslims.....and call them kafirs. I was a kafir once upon a time. Whatever religion other people follow, we have no way pf knowing whether each and every person will continue with their religion.........for Allah guides whosoever He sees fit. Who you call kafir today may become muslim tomorrow. And whosoever you call muslim today may die a kafir tomorrow. And I know there is a hadith on this. |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| Aadhil |
| 02/05/04 at 17:05:10 |
| [slm] A kafir is someone who learns about Islam but chooses not to follow it. So my question is how can someone be a Kafir while he has not had exposire to Islam ??? Danial Pipes would Probably be A Kafir, But What about one of those tribes that live secluded from the World??? Pretty Confusing Huh? P.S A Kafir means one who rejects faith (after hearing it) not a Non muslim. P.P.S this might help: http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=2577 Allah Knows best. [slm] |
| 02/05/04 at 17:09:51 |
| Aadhil |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 02/05/04 at 20:39:08 |
| [slm] From the perspective of Muslims, there are only two kinds of people in the world. There are Muslims, and then there are non-Muslims. The word "Muslim" is an Arabic word. "Non-Muslim" is not an Arabic word (obviously!). So what is the Arabic term for someone who is not Muslim? Kafir. This is how Allah refers to those who have not believed. There are no separate terms in Arabic for the people who have not believed, and those who have rejected Faith. Both are called by the same title: Kafir. Calling someone a kafir does not imply that they are forever condemned to Hell. It does not indicate anything about what will happen with them in the future, because nobody knows the future except Allah! It only refers to their present state - which is *not* Islam. In other words, they are non-Muslims (Kafir, in Arabic [pl. kuffar]). Just because some people use this term almost as a curse word doesn't mean nobody should use it! Some people use the word "blonde" in a derogatory way too. So what, we should stop calling blondes blondes?! We should stop calling blind people blind? We should stop calling black people black? The solution is not to take the word out of the Muslim vocabulary. The solution is to modify the attitudes of people. Wallahu a'lam. |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| amkamb |
| 02/05/04 at 23:20:16 |
| [slm], The Qur'an refers to Christians as "Christians".......Jews as "Jews".....or simply "People of the Book". Polytheists are called just that "polytheists". According to the translation in English. In Arabic that is not "kafir" / "kuffar" but "Ahl-al-kitab" or "mushrikeen". I'd like to say if you must say anything, say "THIS PERSON said to me"......not "THIS KAFIR said to me". Sure you may be correct to say "kafir". It may be the truth. But if you say "person".......that is true too. It is a choice of words. You can also use the word "Christian"......"This Christian said to me".....that would also be correct. And I'm sure Allah loves those who are gentle in their speech. |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| Nomi |
| 02/06/04 at 01:29:35 |
| [slm] [quote] Some people use the word "blonde" in a derogatory way too. So what, we should stop calling blondes blondes?! We should stop calling blind people blind? We should stop calling black people black? The solution is not to take the word out of the Muslim vocabulary [/quote] Exactly, stop calling black ppl black, stop calling blind ppl blind. I mean dont say it to their face! I know its hard to back out sometimes, same is true for me, but, 'back out' :P (i would never do this in real life) :) If it hurts someone, just refer to them as non-Muslims, arabic is not the only language in this world and all of us use al-angraygee here mostly and kafir is not an inglezee word so dont go for arabic here inshaAllah, if (and it does) it hurts others. "aur aaj kel kya ho raha hae bhai? " [slm] |
| 02/06/04 at 09:13:21 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| bhaloo |
| 02/06/04 at 02:25:23 |
| [slm] [quote author=amkamb link=board=madrasa;num=1075830247;start=10#12 date=02/05/04 at 23:20:16] [slm], The Qur'an refers to Christians as "Christians".......Jews as "Jews".....or simply "People of the Book". Polytheists are called just that "polytheists". According to the translation in English. In Arabic that is not "kafir" / "kuffar" but "Ahl-al-kitab" or "mushrikeen". And I'm sure Allah loves those who are gentle in their speech. [/quote] There is a whole surah on the Kafiroon (the disbelievers). Qul ya ayyuhul kafiroon http://www.jamiat.org.za/kids/suras/surah_al_kafiroon.html |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| amkamb |
| 02/06/04 at 09:05:09 |
| [slm], How about this verse in the Qur'an? "Innallaziina KAFARU min ahl-al-kitabi wal mushrikeena, fee naari jahannam khalidina feehaa, Ulaaika hum sharrul barriyah..." This is from Sura Bayyina. One of my favourites. Anyway, what that verse means is "As for those who DISBELIEVE from the People of the Book and the polytheists, they will abide in Hell, they are the worst of created beings."...... KAFARU min Ahl-al-kitabi wal mushrikeena. The verse doesn't seem to indicate that Ahl-al-kitab wal mushrikeena is synonymous with the word "kafar". Meaning there must be believers too among the People of the Book and polytheists. Christians and Jews etc. are not necessarily kafir. It has all got to do with BELIEF.......and this is something you cannot know from appearance. And by the way, Br. Abu Hamza, if you were really very very fat, would you like people to call you "fat"? They are of course speaking the truth. I know from personal experience I don't like to be called "fat" even if I may be so. If people are fat, I use terms such as "a bit on the heavy side" or "a little big" or even the words "very healthy" :D |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| bhaloo |
| 02/07/04 at 02:32:02 |
| [slm] [quote author=amkamb link=board=madrasa;num=1075830247;start=10#15 date=02/06/04 at 09:05:09] [slm], This is from Sura Bayyina. One of my favourites. Anyway, what that verse means is "As for those who DISBELIEVE from the People of the Book and the polytheists, they will abide in Hell, they are the worst of created beings."...... KAFARU min Ahl-al-kitabi wal mushrikeena. The verse doesn't seem to indicate that Ahl-al-kitab wal mushrikeena is synonymous with the word "kafar". Meaning there must be believers too among the People of the Book and polytheists. Christians and Jews etc. are not necessarily kafir. It has all got to do with BELIEF.......and this is something you cannot know from appearance. [/quote] Actually that is not quite correct. Yes, there are believers among the People of the Book, BUT that was before the revelation of Islam and at that point the religion of the people of the book became invalid. Consider these verses from the Quran: "Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted from him and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. [ali-Imran 3:85]. Allah has also said, "Truly, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam" [ali-Imran 3:19]. In Surah Bayyina (98) verses 4-7 4: and the people of the scripture differed not until after there came to them the Bayyinah. 5: And they were commanded not, but that they should worship Allah, making religion purely for HIm alone, Hunafa, and that they perform Salah and give Zakah, and that is the right religion. 6: verily, those who disbelieve from among the people of the scripture and idolators, will abide in the fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures. 7: verily, those who believe and do righteous good deeds, they are the best of creatures. ;====================== |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| timbuktu |
| 02/07/04 at 07:13:08 |
| [slm] while it is correct to call an unbeliever a kafir, we should be trying to soften his/ her heart, so as to be receptive to the message. When those who have had a lot of exposure continue to ridicule the message, one can call them that, but even then it would be better to use softer terms. on IoL there is an agnostic/ atheist american lady who has some radical views even for the americans. other muslims just call her names and threaten her with burning in hell, but i have had some success because i have explained things to her without censoring her. Can you believe that when i went for my operation, she, a confirmed atheist, actually prayed to Allah for my recovery :) I call her half a muslim for that, and were it not for my extremism :) i might just have been able to pull her more to Islam. so sis amkamb, do talk to that lady who calls everyone a kafir, but do it the way i asked one such muslim on IoL. I asked him/ her, that since we say the sunnah of the prophet is to be followed, can she tell me how did the prophet call the kafiroon to Islam. Did he start with greeting everyone as "hey kafir, stop and listen to me"? I did not get an answer as a post, but the muslim(ah)'s use of the derogatory and insulting terms to non-muslims dropped considerably. |
| 02/08/04 at 15:24:02 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| Mossy |
| 02/07/04 at 11:18:56 |
| Salams, So we have ascertained that the word kafir has attained negative connotations when used in the English language. We have also ascertained that it has a strict linguistic sense, ie any non-muslim, as well as a non-linguistic sense in that it refers to someone who has directly rejected the message of Islam. What constitutes the latter - ie reception of the message, has been open to some debate. Imam al-Ghazali makes a number of interesting points in his Boundaries of Theological Tolerance in Islam (which is wonderfully translated by Sherman Jackson). In any case, given it's negative connotations and the fact that we are, indeed, speaking English, why use it? It may not carry negative connotations to you, but given the media portrayal of muslims who refer to everyone as infidels, or its analogous word kaffir (which many non-muslims are now familiar with), is it a good idea to perpetuate this viewpoint? For example, one could use another word such as jahil and it would still be valid. And less well known. Ahem. Brother Abu_Hamza indicated that blond has negative connotations - I would say that is plenty of reason not to use it. I have blond acquaintances, and while I may use the word to describe their hair, I would not use it to describe them as a totality or an individual - it is an attribute, not a whole. In addition, I would be cautious of using it due to the offense caused. The English language is fab, so many words to choose from :) Fi aman Allah, Mossy |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| theOriginal |
| 02/07/04 at 22:47:51 |
| [slm] I just want to say that I completely realize this is a one-liner...but isn't it wonderful when someone else can articulate exactly how you feel? Thank you mossy, you rock! Wasalaam. |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| amkamb |
| 02/08/04 at 01:19:00 |
| [slm], :-* :-* :-* I've got an interesting question to ask all of you. I believe your answers are going to be equally interesting. :) There is a sister who said her Shahadah recently. Meaning she testified before at least two witnesses La Ilaha Il Allah, Muhammadar Rasul Allah. I and the rest of the sisters went all out of our way to welcome her to the Muslim Brotherhood. Gave her scarfs, hijabs, jilbab, dresses.....copy of English translation of Qur'an. Why, I even assigned one sister to educate her more. This new sister also attends our gatherings (halakahs). Anyway, I am a little annoyed because when we do have our gatherings, she is not particularly attentive. Her mind is somewhere else. From her behaviour it seems she is more interested in the food. When an enquiry is made why she embraced Islam, she says she was attracted to the clothes that Muslim women wore. She liked dressing up as a Muslim woman. And yet, at one time, I see her go out without her hijab, inadequately covered. I learn that the sister that had been assigned to her is frustrated. Why? Because this new sister is too attached and obssessed with her. If she does anything, it is not for the sake of Allah, but for the sake of the sister that had been assigned to her. She was practically idolizing the sister. So the sister backed out....(and I encouraged her to back out). Alhamdullilah! I hear the new sister has pictures of Jesus Christ on the wall of her house. I try to explain to her that she can't do that. How does anyone know that Jesus looked like that? Or that God looked like that.... I asked her. And you're not going to believe what she says in return. She says: "How do you know God doesn't look like that!?" She thought she was being smart. At least that was how it sounded to me. ::) At another time, she says she knows her Christian grandmother went to heaven. I ask her why and she says: I know because there was a peaceful smile on her lips when she died. I tried to argue with her, but it was no use. I told her it would be better for her to say "I don't know.". And she insisted that she KNEW! This morning she called me and told me she got sick because she ate some pork sausages. She didn't know it was pork. Her dad had made it. I asked her: "Is your Dad Christian?" She says "Yes". I say: Didn't you ask your dad before you ate it?" and she says "Oh, I forgot to ask". The new sister continues with her old ways and beliefs despite saying La ilaha il Allah Muhammadar Rasul Allah. She accepted the kalimah true. But she hasn't let go of her other beliefs. Now, you tell me.........is this sister kafir or is she muslim? ??? |
| 02/08/04 at 01:23:39 |
| amkamb |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| timbuktu |
| 02/08/04 at 07:54:03 |
| [quote author=amkamb link=board=madrasa;num=1075830247;start=20#20 date=02/08/04 at 01:19:00]Now, you tell me.........is this sister kafir or is she muslim? ???[/quote] sister, judging or labelling people is a dangerous thing to do? am I a mufti entrusted with throwing people out of Islam, or is it our task to explain the deen to people so that they escape the fire? i do criticise other muslims for their wrong beliefs, and sometimes for shortcomings in their actions, but calling "kafir" although technically correct, i would rarely use. Sometimes one may need to be told sharply that what s/he believes or does make him/ her 'kafir". This is shock therapy, but one does not always use this therapy. Sometimes, one is so upset by a remark that one needs to use this word to express one's distance from such a thought. This is ok, too. you see, islam gives us a wide range of responses and behaviors, depending upon the circumstances. Our problem is that we apply only the one response that appeals to us. Even then it is ok, if we do not exclude other people from responding in other ways that are "allowed". again an example from another forum: there is an american revert who accepted islam about 4.5 years ago, and there is this muslim brother who constantly quotes fatwas on every small matter. The result is that this lady says she has considered going back to her Christian religion, but her belief in Allah (swt) sustains her. Her belief in the Sunnah or the Hadith is not that strong, though. I am also guilty of causing some annoyance to her. But don't you think pointing out everytime her departure from the true path may antagonise her from islam. Let me re-iterate what i said once earlier. I am rather forgetful so i will only quote the gist. The prophet [saw] told one of the Sahabis (going to Yemen, I think), that he should first tell people to say the shahadah. Then tell them about salah, fasting and Zakah, then Hajj if they are able. Saying the shahadah entitles them to be treated as muslims. what is in their hearts is between them and Allah. i agree thap the lady you have mentioned needs a lot of dawah work. Faced with a similar problem, i would look at the practical aspects of how to get her to understand Islamic beliefs so that she can let go of her previous ones, rather than finding a label to describe her. the maghrib azan is being said, so i have to go, but i will later give you a short description of the muslims in India, insha`Allah. as for your other thread on choosing your company, you are right in your decision. may Allah make us all true muslims, worthy of HIS jannah. aameen |
| 02/08/04 at 08:36:55 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| amkamb |
| 02/08/04 at 10:00:13 |
| [quote author=timbuktu link=board=madrasa;num=1075830247;start=20#21 date=02/08/04 at 07:54:03] sister, judging or labelling people is a dangerous thing to do? am I a mufti entrusted with throwing people out of Islam, or is it our task to explain the deen to people so that they escape the fire? [/quote] I do not wish to label the sister in any way or judge her. No. I was asking this question with regard to how people call others kafir or muslim based upon their appearance. You see, even if the sister wears a hijab....that is no indication she is muslim. Whether she is kafir or muslim......ONLY Allah can judge. And this is my point. Isn't there a verse in the Qur'an where Allah tells us there are people who believe part of the book and reject the rest.....and these are equally disbelievers? Disbelievers.......meaning kafir? So that is the reason why I say we should not call anyone kafir. We just don't know. Only Allah knows. |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| Maliha |
| 02/08/04 at 12:15:35 |
| [slm] ummm...so i honestly don't understand the point of this post. Are you asking that Kaffir is to be removed from the "Izlamic" dictionaries? I agree with the sentiment that it shouldn't be used in a deragatory manner...and I don't think anyone on this board disagrees with that. Pushing it further to pretend there are simply no kuffar in a world that is teeming with them, is a tad unbalanced isn't it? Allah refers in some parts of the Quran that the even the people of the book that don't believe in the Rasul [saw] are Kuffar. If you need quotes tell me.... As far as Dawah is concerned...take it slow with the new lady. It is *really* hard to completely change your life. Even if she decided to become Muslim for the "wrong" reasons..Allah opened the window in her heart, towards accepting, towards seeing the truth and the beautiful way its manifested... I would hate to stand responsible for closing that window forever. Gentleness colors beauty in everything, without it the world is scathing and harsh. I still don't understand the point of this continued argument...We are living in a world where even beautiful honorable words like Jihad are enough to cause people to shudder in disgust. Every single word in the Tawheedic epistemology, carries a meaning, every single word has changed with time, carrying different shades, reflecting different nuances. But they are words that can not somehow be made to dissapear or sound like "curse words". At the end of the day, Allah will judge us all for our intention... Wa Allahu Ta'ala A'alam. Sis in struggle, :-) [wlm] |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| timbuktu |
| 02/08/04 at 15:03:54 |
| [slm] [quote author=amkamb link=board=madrasa;num=1075830247;start=20#22 date=02/08/04 at 10:00:13] So that is the reason why I say we should not call anyone kafir. We just don't know. Only Allah knows.[/quote] i understand your point, sister amkamb no, i don't think you want to label anyone, and i did not imply that you meant such a thing. We agree that it is better to avoid derogatory terms. i will also agree that appearances do not necessarily indicate what is in the heart. However, if someone says he does not believe, then he is to be treated as a non-believer. as for the lady who has that habit of calling people "kafir", it is very unfortunate. Perhaps I need to examine myself if i have fallen into such a habit of calling people by names that are unjustified. so, i see the point of your post. and yet, there are occassions when such a distinction has to be made. If we did not make this distinction, Jihad would not be possible. Marriage between muslim and non-muslim would take place without any thought of what is acceptable and what is not, etc. |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| amkamb |
| 02/08/04 at 15:19:26 |
| [quote author=timbuktu link=board=madrasa;num=1075830247;start=20#24 date=02/08/04 at 15:03:54] [slm] i understand your point, sister amkamb [/quote] Alhamdullilah! Finally someone understood what I was trying to say! Alhamdullilah! At this point I would like to say I did not bring up the story of the new sister to suggest we should shun her or cast her out. My reason for doing so was merely to point out that BELIEF or UNBELIEF is something that resides in the heart, and only which Allah can judge. Where the new sister stands with Allah I have no idea, but for my part I am always there to help the new sister should she need any help. She is always welcome to visit me. But I won't visit her unless she takes down the picture of Jesus Christ. |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
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| Anonymous |
| 02/08/04 at 21:39:31 |
| Assalamalaikum I don't mean to create trouble and get into an argument with anyone, least of all sister amkamb since her zeal for Islaam and da'wah is so sincere, mashallah, may she inspire others. I just want to highlight a few quotes here and ask the sister, does she realize how they sound? "Why, I even assigned one sister to educate her more." Err...assign as in delegate from a group of sisters you are in touch with or are the head of as part of an organization?? "I am a little annoyed because when we do have our gatherings, she is not particularly attentive. Her mind is somewhere else. From her behaviour it seems she is more interested in the food. When an enquiry is made why she embraced Islam, she says she was attracted to the clothes that Muslim women wore. She liked dressing up as a Muslim woman." Sister, how can you conjecture that the other sister's mind is on food...does she look hungry? Or is she merely distracted because the ongoing discussion may be Greek as far as she's concerned...it may simply not be tailored to a revert's needs? Isn't that some food for thought (no pun intended) "And yet, at one time, I see her go out without her hijab, inadequately covered." Don't thousands of born-Muslim women do that everyday...all over the world?? It isn't easy adopting the hijab 24/7 especially in the West and more so if a person is a new revert...not many ppl may know she's a Muslim and she may genuinely hv a problem with springing a surprise... "this new sister is too attached and obssessed with her. If she does anything, it is not for the sake of Allah, but for the sake of the sister that had been assigned to her. She was practically idolizing the sister. So the sister backed out....(and I encouraged her to back out). Alhamdullilah!" Hero-worshipping someone whom she probably sees as "Islaamic" and "knowledgeable" is perfectly understandable given the kind of isolation reverts face..she's probably among the handful of sisters this new revert can actually talk to...In your opinion what would be the worst thing that would have come out of "obsession"? IMHO the sisters would have bonded and would hv led the other sister to being a better Muslim by being her friend instead of merely a counsellor/teacher. "I tried to argue with her, but it was no use." Didn't The Prophet SAW warn the Muslims not to curse/criticize the dead in the case of Abu Jahl when his son Ikrimah came to accept Islaam.. because they have already met their decision and that it serves no other purpose than hurt the living? I say: Didn't you ask your dad before you ate it?" and she says "Oh, I forgot to ask". What about husn'az-zann and finding 70 excuses for your new Muslim sister? If she says she forgot and was sick after eating haraam, isn't that what Abu Bakr RA did after he accidentally had a glass of milk from haraam sources? She accepted the kalimah true. But she hasn't let go of her other beliefs. I'm sure you know this hadith about a sahabi killing an infidel in a war, who said the shahada at the point of a sword. In spite of this, the sahabi killed the man and was strongly reproved by The Prophet SAW who said "Did you know what was in his hearT?" Sister, as I understand it the goals of da'wah are 3: First to invite oneself , then one's family and then the rest of the world to the commands of Allaah swt through the way of His Prophet SAW. I hope you take the time to read this and instead of getting upset, please think about this. |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
|---|
| amkamb |
| 02/09/04 at 11:28:24 |
| [quote author=Anonymous link=board=madrasa;num=1075830247;start=20#26 date=02/08/04 at 21:39:31]Assalamalaikum I don't mean to create trouble and get into an argument with anyone, least of all sister amkamb since her zeal for Islaam and da'wah is so sincere, mashallah, may she inspire others. I just want to highlight a few quotes here and ask the sister, does she realize how they sound? Err...assign as in delegate from a group of sisters you are in touch with or are the head of as part of an organization?? Sister, how can you conjecture that the other sister's mind is on food...does she look hungry? Or is she merely distracted because the ongoing discussion may be Greek as far as she's concerned...it may simply not be tailored to a revert's needs? Isn't that some food for thought (no pun intended) Don't thousands of born-Muslim women do that everyday...all over the world?? It isn't easy adopting the hijab 24/7 especially in the West and more so if a person is a new revert...not many ppl may know she's a Muslim and she may genuinely hv a problem with springing a surprise... Hero-worshipping someone whom she probably sees as "Islaamic" and "knowledgeable" is perfectly understandable given the kind of isolation reverts face..she's probably among the handful of sisters this new revert can actually talk to...In your opinion what would be the worst thing that would have come out of "obsession"? IMHO the sisters would have bonded and would hv led the other sister to being a better Muslim by being her friend instead of merely a counsellor/teacher. Didn't The Prophet SAW warn the Muslims not to curse/criticize the dead in the case of Abu Jahl when his son Ikrimah came to accept Islaam.. because they have already met their decision and that it serves no other purpose than hurt the living? What about husn'az-zann and finding 70 excuses for your new Muslim sister? If she says she forgot and was sick after eating haraam, isn't that what Abu Bakr RA did after he accidentally had a glass of milk from haraam sources? I'm sure you know this hadith about a sahabi killing an infidel in a war, who said the shahada at the point of a sword. In spite of this, the sahabi killed the man and was strongly reproved by The Prophet SAW who said "Did you know what was in his hearT?" [/quote] [slm], Sister Anonymous. Your post is highly interesting. And before I say anything else, I would like to tell you I forgive you for all that you said. And now, may I ask how YOU sound? IMHO, you sound rather sarcastic. Why don't you review whatever it is that you have written and analyze it? Don't you sound sarcastic? It does seem as though you don't have great opinion about me.....although it is the beauty of Islam that you should think well of your brother or sister in Islam. Anyway, it doesn't much matter what you think about me. "since her zeal for Islaam and da'wah is so sincere" Whatever I do, I do for the sake of Allah, and I'm not looking for any praise from any one of you. I would like to tell all of you something important. I am a newbie here at the Madina. And I joined because I want to learn. I didn't join to preach to others what I know. Some of you are born muslims, some reverts to Islam, some new reverts. Doesn't matter to me what your status is. I feel I can learn even from a new revert. Being a born muslim doesn't make you superior. What does make you superior however is your humility. The topic we are discussing is not about doing dawa, but about what is right and what is wrong. Being unattentive at gatherings and making light of the subject under discussion, is that right or wrong? How do I know the sister's mind is on food? Well, why else would she keep going to the kitchen? And by the way, the discussion we have is not in Greek or Arabic......it is in SIMPLE, PLAIN English. "It isn't easy adopting the hijab 24/7 especially in the West " My dear Sr. Anonymous.......the sister was attracted to Islam because of the clothes Muslim women wear. So why doesn't she dress like a Muslim woman all the time if that is the case? If thousands of born muslim women don't wear the hijab....what has that got to do with it? ::) In any case, is it right for her to dress Islamically when she FEELS like it? Allahu Alim. What her motivations are Allahu Alim. But a muslim woman should cover herself because she fears Allah. Where is this fear of Allah? The next point you have brought up is her "hero-worshipping" of the sister "assigned" to her. I think it is time to back out if there is any homosexual inclination......don't you think? I didn't want to mention it.....but now you know. And perhaps you wonder who I am to assign? Well, I certainly head the group of my circle of friends. I lead the group.......anything wrong with that? I would have personally taught the new sister, but I am just too busy with two kids. As for crticizing the dead.........hey, I merely said to the new sister that it would be better for her to say "I don't know." Now is that being critical? Obviously, it is wrong for her to say that she KNEW. And it is our duty to tell her so. What is wrong is wrong. You SHOULD speak up. I'm not going to go into the other details with regard to this new sister. I believe I have made my point. If you see any evil, you must forbid it. What is wrong is wrong. Don't make excuses for the new sister. That is precisely what you have been doing. Making excuses for evil deeds. But please pardon me.......this is how it all SOUNDS to me. I may be wrong. |
| 02/09/04 at 11:35:37 |
| amkamb |
| Re: Kafir or not? |
|---|
| Abu_Hamza |
| 02/09/04 at 12:44:47 |
| [slm] Ok! Looks like everyone has made their point loud and clear, so let's move on and talk about some other things insha Allah. This thread is now locked. P.S. Jannah, you were right ::) |
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