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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
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| theOriginal |
| 02/08/04 at 11:05:32 |
| [slm] Alright guys, I'm back again. I just heard (I'll assure you I expressed my surprise verbally) by someone who is religious, that we (women) should observe hijaab (the physical scarf) in front of our fathers. He said it is backed up by some sort of proof. Now, having already exploded once (lol), I'm ready to be open minded to this theory, provided that I am presented with the proof (or antiproof). Whatever it may be. So, my request: Now that I've cooled off, I'm ready to be fired at...bring it on :) Wasalaam and thank you soooooooooo much. |
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| Maliha |
| 02/08/04 at 12:46:19 |
| [slm] ummm..your friend surely doesn't dispute the ayah in Surah Nur does he? [quote] "024.031 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards God, that ye may attain Bliss. "[/quote] it would be interesting to examine what proofs he brought forth to argue his point... i am not a fan of making my life any harder than necessary tho ;) take care sis :-) [wlm] |
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| theOriginal |
| 02/09/04 at 14:29:20 |
| [slm] Thank you for the Ayah, sis. He isn't a friend...he's an older relative of my roommate. I just wanted to know how he derived his point of view, and I thought maybe someone on this board could offer insight. Anyway, when we tried backing up our point, he said "you shouldn't ask if it is haraam or halaal, but rather, you should ask what will give you more thawaab in the eyes of Allah (swt)." Now, it would make sense, except in this case, I don't see how you would get more thawaab for covering your hair in front of your father. (very confused) It's kind of like...we're all struggling anyway...life is not easy as it is...and then you have people saying things like this to you all the time. It is very frustrating. Like the other day, this one brother was telling us (sisters) that if a guy checks us out, then we sin a magnitude exactly equal to the guy who checked us out. I don't even WANT to know if that's true, because if it is, then I'll probably go bang my head repeatedly against my nicely painted white wall. Wassalaamu Alaikum. |
| 02/09/04 at 14:30:31 |
| theOriginal |
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| nida |
| 02/09/04 at 14:41:21 |
| [slm] when i first read that about covering in front of your father i was just like :o. its funny actually! your father is one of your mahrams and i can tell you..u don't have to cover in front of him.... :) about your second scenario..when a guy checks you out and u have an equal sin. i think that brother was telling you how the girl might be part of the cause by wearing something provocative, etc. but the sin is on the guy though cuz he was the one who checked her out. hope it made sense! [wlm] :-) |
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| M.F. |
| 02/09/04 at 14:46:02 |
| [quote author=JustOne link=board=madrasa;num=1076256332;start=0#2 date=02/09/04 at 14:29:20] [slm] "you shouldn't ask if it is haraam or halaal, but rather, you should ask what will give you more thawaab in the eyes of Allah (swt)." [/quote] Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah The question is not halaal or haraam, but wajib or not waajib. In this case, it would be stupid to try to get thawaab for something that not only doesn't make sense but would create great hardship if one tried to do it. Not the kind of hardship that gives you thawaab, you'd just be putting energy into something that had no meaning or backup whatsoever. Why would anyone say something like that???? trying to figure this person out.... where do they get their information, and why do they pass on false information that confuses people!! argh!!! that's how he made me feel! :P Anyway, ask the other guy for his DALEEL! It's one thing if guys were checking you out and you're not wearing hijab or wearing something that attracts their attention, but if you're covered and minding your own business then it's their prob if they check you out, doesn't that seem more logical? Always ask for daleel, esp in stuff that's confusing to you or doesn't seem to make sense. Islam always makes sense. |
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| Nomi |
| 02/09/04 at 15:07:11 |
| [slm] [quote author=JustOne link=board=madrasa;num=1076256332;start=0#2 date=02/09/04 at 14:29:20] I don't even WANT to know if that's true, because if it is, then I'll probably go bang my head repeatedly against my nicely painted white wall. [/quote] MashaAllah, quite an emotional sister... Seriously though, i dont see any point in even asking this second question on here unless its just sharing that incident and not exactly a question. I think u have enough knowledge to refute that argument right on his face. Never let anyone get to u that easily. If someone out there reading this is sensitive by nature then follow this rule from now onwards. "Think of everything that anyone presents to you as wrong, unless and untill proven right" [slm] Your brother. |
| 02/09/04 at 15:09:09 |
| Nomi |
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| lucid9 |
| 02/09/04 at 15:28:19 |
| [slm] this is another one those cultural butthead things. gotta wear hijab even in the house, even in front of your pa...uh huh...yeah right!! this is just one of those plainly fascist cultural things which happens in the subcontinent. there are a lot more examples if you wanna know... and about getting the equal sin if some dude is all eyeballs -- can't be true. And hey, just because a dude is eyeballs, doesn't always mean he's intentionally being a butthead. he might just be really desperate to get married, and anytime he runs into a hijabi, she immediately gets his attention because they stick out so much. i know gobs of guys like this -- guys always so eager to point out a hijabi among a throng of nonhijabis. i always laugh at them and say: dude you net to like get married....but often its that they are already married!! anyhow, remember actions are by intention...and if you wear a hijab and don't intentionally try to attract eyeballing crowd -- then how can you sin?? At some point guys gotta take responsibility for their wandering gazes....:D :D |
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| jannah |
| 02/09/04 at 17:19:22 |
| wlm, let me just add, the thing is in some cultures the dupatta/scarf doesn't have much to do with islam per se.. it's about respect, prestige of the family and stuff like that. So wearing a dupatta in front of uncles and ur father is important out of respect (even though it's c-thru and they're your mahrams!), but you don't have to worry about male cousins!? that is extremely cultural and doesn't have much to do with Islam. and when you go out you have to wear a burka/black hijab covering everything otherwise ur family is considered poor/less prestigious but you don't have to inside even if there are non-mahram guys around and that you can treat your cousin like he's your mahram (unless ur likely to marry him)!!! btw as for someone being responsible for someone else's sin by doing absolutely nothing to help it, that's also ridiculous as the Quran says: [code]Every soul draws the meed of its acts on none but itself: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another... Quran 6:164 [/code] [code]But if anyone earns a fault or a sin and throws it on to one that is innocent. He carries (on himself) both a falsehood and a flagrant sin. Quran 4:112[/code] |
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| se7en |
| 02/11/04 at 03:04:34 |
| as salaamu alaykum, [quote]"but rather, you should ask what will give you more thawaab in the eyes of Allah (SubHana Wa Ta`ala)." [/quote] This is actually a really interesting statement :) Me and jannah have been taking this class on bid'ah, based on a famous work called al-'Itisaam, by Imam Shatibi. And it's interesting that though we hear the word bid'ah thrown around quite often these days, there is actually a really specific definition -- it is something in the way of the deen, newly invented, chosen over a path that has already been prescribed in the Shari'ah, the objective of which is to gain nearness to Allah or reward. So.. if wearing hijab around your father is simply a *cultural* thing - a sign of showing respect, that is not given any spiritual significance or associated with the deen.. then it is not a bid'ah. However, when you start to *make* it a part of the deen, and say that doing it will be rewarded by Allah, etc, when this is not what the texts say.. then you are embarking on some pretty dangerous territory, w'Allahu a'lam. putting things in perspective tho, it's really nice tho that the bro was trying to help you gain more thawaab and reward from Allah.. :) may Allah grant us all sincerity coupled with understanding.. ameen. wasalaamu alaykum |
| 02/11/04 at 03:11:48 |
| se7en |
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| lucid9 |
| 02/11/04 at 10:57:47 |
| [quote author=AsimZ link=board=madrasa;num=1076256332;start=0#8 date=02/11/04 at 02:14:41] ps: btw, covering heads infront of mehrams isn't a practice at my place but i respect those who practice it even though its not part of religion. If they do it out of respect then more power to them :) [/quote] please don't take this the wrong way. but doing things out of respect is one thing...but once it becomes part of the relgion...it is bidaa...and recall the hadith "every innovation in religion is bidaa, and every bidaa is in the fire..." that's how the oppressive purdah system, i beleive, part of the indian/paki/bangi islam just the 2 cents of a superbackwards idiot... ;D PS: hey: after posting, i just read seven's post...she said what i was just idioticly repeated. |
| 02/11/04 at 11:01:09 |
| lucid9 |
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| Nomi |
| 02/11/04 at 13:10:32 |
| [slm] :) Agreed on bidaa thingy, how can i deny that. But u better stop hating those who do it "just" outta respect. :) [quote author=hyper link=board=madrasa;num=1076256332;start=10#10 date=02/11/04 at 10:57:47] that's how the oppressive purdah system, i beleive, part of the indian/paki/bangi islam [/quote] I want to brag about something. Do u remember (the time when we fell in... oops) u once told me that you always have a good impact on your friends? Actually (alhamdulillah) i have an influence on my friend's too, and *if* you were referring to niqaab in that comment then most of my friends (after arguing with me) believe in covering of face (for women ofcourse), it took some time but.. u know. And as its a banned topic so i wont go there :) I respect hijabis very much, you better respect niqaabis too and stop hating ninjabis :). Again, i agree with the bidaa point of urs, if you re-read my first post this sentence of mine will re-iterate itself :) [slm] :) And this was a happy post :) |
| 02/11/04 at 13:12:41 |
| Nomi |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 02/11/04 at 23:09:07 |
| [slm] I'm extremely sorry, but I accidentally deleted Asim's post which talked about Samri! Sorry bro. I was trying to quote from it and I accidentally clicked on Modify instead of Quote :( I wanted to comment on this part of it though: [quote][slm] Just wanted to add that, remember that incident where Moses [elaehi's salaam] was confronted by best wizards at pharaoh's palace? I'm told that when pharaoh's people were punished by Allah one particular wizard called Saamri (name?) wasn't punished and reason for that is, he used to copy Moses [elaehi's salaam] in most of things that He [as] used to do. Like his outlook etc.[/quote] Hmm. I thought the wizards(/magicians) all submitted to the Lord of Moses upon seeing his miracle. So weren't they all *not* punished for that reason? How come Saamri has a special reason for *not* being punished? In fact, I didn't know Saamri was among them to begin with. Anyone know more about this? Abu Hamza |
| 02/11/04 at 23:10:17 |
| Abu_Hamza |
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| Nomi |
| 02/12/04 at 00:36:10 |
| [slm] :) Let me give u a tip. Next time you delete somebody's post (that you will). Goto File menu and click the "Work Offline" option. Then press the "Back" button (Its located below file menu). There u go, the deleted post shows again, MAGIC ;) An alternative to that "Back Button" is "BackSpace key of your keyboard" OR "ALT+left arow key". BTW, have you ever tried holding the "Alt" key and pressing the "F4" button? [slm] :) ps: sorry but, who appointed him as moderator ::) [quote] Sorry bro. I was trying to quote from it and I accidentally clicked on [size=3]Modify[/size] instead of Quote :( [/quote] ;D |
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| jaihoon |
| 02/12/04 at 04:44:06 |
| [quote author=se7en link=board=madrasa;num=1076256332;start=0#8 date=02/11/04 at 03:04:34]as salaamu alaykum, This is actually a really interesting statement :) Me and jannah have been taking this class on bid'ah, based on a famous work called al-'Itisaam, by Imam Shatibi. And it's interesting that though we hear the word bid'ah thrown around quite often these days, there is actually a really specific definition -- it is something in the way of the deen, newly invented, chosen over a path that has already been prescribed in the Shari'ah, the objective of which is to gain nearness to Allah or reward. So.. if wearing hijab around your father is simply a *cultural* thing - a sign of showing respect, that is not given any spiritual significance or associated with the deen.. then it is not a bid'ah. However, when you start to *make* it a part of the deen, and say that doing it will be rewarded by Allah, etc, when this is not what the texts say.. then you are embarking on some pretty dangerous territory, w'Allahu a'lam. [/quote] Hijab, bid'a ... ahh. Havent these topics been the favorite points of argument among the world of contemporary muslims... and they never reached any agreement. :( I've always laughed at the way how different ppl interpret the case of bid'a. :D... especially in the part of world where i live. It just doesnt fit my common sense. Jaihoon |
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| Nomi |
| 02/12/04 at 17:10:04 |
| [slm] Uncle hyper, ur IMs are always welcome its just that, that its not fair that we can't IM u or even reply to ur IMs :) Thanks for clarifying that by "purdah" u were referring to confining women at home and not even allowing them to go shopping and for edu etc. Agreed, its unislamic to confine/force them like that. I would like to add that you still shouldn't 'hate' men who do it (as u said u do). Hate their bad deeds not them. Does this remind you of "something"? [slm] ~Just another backwards desi :) |
| 02/12/04 at 17:13:50 |
| Nomi |
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| Nomi |
| 03/01/04 at 23:22:47 |
| [slm] Phew, that took some digging!! [quote author=Abu_Hamza link=board=madrasa;num=1076256332;start=10#11 date=02/11/04 at 23:09:07] Hmm. I thought the wizards(/magicians) all submitted to the Lord of Moses upon seeing his miracle. So weren't they all *not* punished for that reason? How come Saamri has a special reason for *not* being punished? In fact, I didn't know Saamri was among them to begin with. [/quote] Yesterday before a dinner, i finally asked it from some knowledgeable ppl at my masjid. They say that the guy who used to copy Hazrat Musa (alaehis salaam) was not one of those magicians/wizards. All magicians did submit to Lord of Moses (alaehis salaam) that said, its also reported that when Pharaoh and his people/army were punished, that guy who used to mock Moses (alaehis salaam) by copying most his actions, His outlook in particular, was not punished. Allahu Alim Alrighty.. since this thread got ressurected again :), let me ask you folks a question! Hijaab/covering your head 'also' brings modesty, right? Now i've mentiioned it somewhere else too and do so again that i think i were not bearded i might be still doing things that are not so modest in nature, like not the haraam stuff so dont go there but you know... the not so modest stuff like really whirling (=> :-/ <=) with friends while eating out can be one example. Now girls are free to take off their hijaabs infront of their own bros and pops... what are we men to do? how to take off our beards infront of our own siss and moms ??? |
| 03/01/04 at 23:26:19 |
| Nomi |
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