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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Equality of the Sexes |
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| amkamb |
| 02/09/04 at 23:13:28 |
| [slm], I'm just writing to ask sisters here what they think about the term "equality of the sexes". Is there such a thing? I don't think so. Woman was created weaker than the man. So how can the sexes be equal? I was also wondering why Allah created the woman weaker. One sister asked me this question.....and I thought I might put it up here. :-) |
| 02/09/04 at 23:14:28 |
| amkamb |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 02/10/04 at 00:40:02 |
| [slm] Heres what I know, but I dont know verse numbers or hadith numbers, Men are a degree more than women but zero to the second degree is still zero so for a man to be anything a woman has to be something, but I could just be working a translated meaning. I think another way to translate degree is a step but then again one step is built upon the next. Both men and women are held responsible for anything they had a say in and everyone they had power over. Women are questioned about thier children and slaves the same way as men and men are questioned about their wives. I have never found any hadith or ayat that denies women equal access to education. Women prayed in the same room of the same masjid when the prophet [saw]was there, one once complained of not having as good of access to his teaching as the men and he told men not to prevent women access. The prophet [saw]did have a vision of hell in which most of the inhabitants were women. I cant remember if it was partof the hadith or part of the fatwa that it is because women tend to be ungrateful wasterels. I can only think, if a man cant hear the khutba what does he do? If the women are restless in the room for the women and the sound goes out durring the khutba, what do women do? Hagar carried her son acoss a desert, but wasnt strong enough to watch him die, then she wasnt strong enough to stick by her descision but she was strong enough to wander in indescision. Abraham was strong enough to give up his son twice, or was he just not strong enough to stand up to Sarah? Ayesha [saw] was strong enough to live to an old age after the death the husband of her youth, but fatima [saw] soon followed her father. How can we generalize who is stronger? Is the higer step the stronger step, or is it the step is sets its weight on? |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| amkamb |
| 02/10/04 at 10:17:13 |
| While on the topic you have brought up two subjects that I do have questions about. First, here in our local masjid, women pray in the masjid behind a partition. We can't see the men praying at all....and it is sometimes hard to make out the prayer, especially when it is Asr or Dhuhr. Is this sunnah? Again while on this subject, I know of a muslim lady who prayed in the presence of other people still wearing her niqab. Is this sunnah? Second question is with regard to sending blessings like we do for our Nabi to Aisha or Fatima or anyone else. Why do we use "sallallahu alayhi wa salam" only with our Nabi and not with others? With other prophets we say "alayhis salam". Why the difference? |
| 02/11/04 at 00:16:51 |
| amkamb |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| FajR |
| 02/10/04 at 11:55:23 |
| [quote author=amkamb link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=0#0 date=02/09/04 at 23:13:28] [slm], I'm just writing to ask sisters here what they think about the term "equality of the sexes". Is there such a thing? I don't think so. Woman was created weaker than the man. So how can the sexes be equal? I was also wondering why Allah created the woman weaker. One sister asked me this question.....and I thought I might put it up here. :-)[/quote] It depends on how u look at it, There cant be 2 Managing Directors in a Company, 2 captains in a team, 2 presidents of a country.....likewise, 2 heads of household, in the basic unit of Islamic society, Allah (swt) has given the husband one step ahead, and a degree of superiority. And why not? take a look at all the responsibilities that he has, bread earning, checking to see if the family is on the right path. If the wife is doing something wrong, the husband will be questioned on the last day and not vice versa. i think that because the husband has more of a hold, the wife reaps the benefits. She is cared for, fed, sheltered and all her needs are taken of. Jannah lies beneath the mothers feet and according to the hadith, the mother has 3 times more superiority over the father. amakamb, u asked why Allah created the woman "weaker" ? did u mean Physically weaker? i dont know why women need to be physically stronger or equal to men to begin with... they havent been ordered to do the ruff n tuff stuff or fight in battles... women are stronger in a different way, they generally have more tolerance to pain, afterall it is the guy who passes out in the labor room while wifey is undergoing major labor contractions... Allah created men and women equal BUT different , if the woman is a step behind in something, shes given superiority in something else.....likewise for men. I dont even know if im just rambling or making sense, ill hit post and come back and to it later....right now....class time!!!! |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| Dawn |
| 02/10/04 at 15:02:31 |
| [slm] [quote author=FajR link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=0#3 date=02/10/04 at 11:55:23]It depends on how u look at it, There cant be ... 2 presidents of a country[/quote] Erm, OK, totally off topic, but in this case, yes, there can be! :o Yep, Switzerland technically has 7 presidents which form together a "board of presidents". And the official mouthpiece rotates from year to year around the board in "clockwork" fashion. The decisions of the board are made by majority vote, and regardless of what the personal vote of the "mouthpiece" was on the issue at hand, the only decision that the outside world ever gets to see is the majority decision. It doesn't aven get to see who voted which way (unless, as has happened once or twice, you get a leak). OK, back to the topic now. |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| jannah |
| 02/10/04 at 17:39:28 |
| Salam, Whoa alot going on in this thread...here's my .02... There is "equality of the sexes" if you mean that we are equal in the sight of God. We will all be judged for our actions, we will earn the same rewards or punishments. We both have responsibilities and tests and trials. Are men and women the same? physically, mentally obviously not..but why say women are weaker? We are the one's that bear children. We take care of the family and household. Nowadays most women do this alone and not to mention throughout history during wars, men working in other countries etc. We tend to work 24/7.. ever heard of the 'second shift' of most women. Most women have regular jobs and then they come home for the second shift! We multi-task better. We have better emotional quotients. We live longer. As for men being a "degree" over women, that is a degree in responsibility. Men and women are "equal" but we are made differently and sometimes we have different roles and responsibilities. The prophet [saw] did have a vision of Hellfire and used that as a teaching lesson. He did this many times with examples and warnings in cases for both men and women so it doesn't strike me as something particular. If you can't hear the khutbah?? I think either one should complain to whoever's in charge! Can't hear the prayer? Complain to whoever's in charge. It's ridiculous to try to pray when you can't hear or see the Imam! Niqab as far as I know is to be taken off while praying, but if there were non-mahrams around and she was worried about it she might have decided not to. We say [saw] cause as u say he's OUR prophet and he brought us Islam under trial and hardship and we wish him to have peace and blessings from Allah for this. There are also special injunctions/rewards for this mentioned specifically by Rasulullah. I can understand what ur saying about family problems affecting the world at large, but I think the causes of war are a lot more sophisticated and involve alot more complexity. Interesting about Switzerland... are there any women on that board btw? I think it's important for two people in a marriage to consult with each other. Can we expect a marriage to be happy when one person is making all the decisions? Unless the other is a doormat i just don't see it. |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| timbuktu |
| 02/10/04 at 19:49:34 |
| [slm] jannah has covered it well. complain to the mosque authorities about this. At a Bosnian get-together, i found the women and children praying a few rows behind the men. I think that must have been the way back in Medina. or by the side. perhaps a curtain in between does not matter. but jannah, why do you need to see the imaam. Hearing should be enough, i would think. |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| jannah |
| 02/10/04 at 19:58:18 |
| wlm, you would think... ever been in a prayer where the imam makes a mistake and you're trying to figure out what the heck is going on without being able to see anything?? or if he decided to do witr/fajr dua or prays some rakas together instead of separate etc etc!! or ever been in a room where the mic goes out in the middle of prayer.. mass confusion... it's much better to be able to see the imam... or at least the congregation in front.. but it may not be possible in some places b/c of logistics.. but i would like to know how someone can pray without seeing OR hearing the imam? ESP? what a feat :P |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| theOriginal |
| 02/10/04 at 21:33:04 |
| [slm] Ahahaha..Jannah!! That reminds me of the time (last year, I think) we went to go pray Salaat-ul-Eid, and the mic wasn't working. So anyway, the Muezzin (pardon me if my terminology is off) was repeating after the Imaam. But!!! the Imaam skipped a Rukuh (why do I get the sudden feeling I have mentioned this before)...so half the people were in Sujood, the other half were in the Rukuh...the Imaam says "Allahu Akbar" and the Muezzin says "Sami Allah..WHATTT!!!!" hahahahaa.....imagine the chaos on the female side, where we couldn't see them, and kids were screaming...half the women just gave up and they started talking. it was pretty funny. (okay it was frustrating at the time, but i can fall over laughing, even today) I'm serious, I've written this story out before recently, and I can't remember where (something is wrong with the memory)...so if you guys have heard this one before....apologies in effect. Wasalaam. |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| nida |
| 02/10/04 at 23:51:06 |
| [slm] sister Justone, you won't believe it...but the exact same thing happened in the ladies section last Eid (Ramadan). the ladies felt soooo lost and left out cuz we didn't even get to hear the beginning or the end of the salaah :( alhamduliah, for Eid-Al-Adha, this time.....it was sooo much better. [wlm] :-) |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| amkamb |
| 02/11/04 at 00:27:34 |
| [quote author=jannah link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=0#5 date=02/10/04 at 17:39:28]Are men and women the same? physically, mentally obviously not..but why say women are weaker? [/quote] Women ARE physically weaker. It's a fact, isn't it? It's just that we don't like to be called weaker. The truth is we have been created that way.....for a reason. Allah has a reason for everything. And because of the fact that we are weak.......we need protection. We need to be escorted. We need to cover ourselves. It is recommended for women to stay indoors. Men have been appointed as protectors of their women. Fathers, brothers, husbands. Just plain facts. And I agree with you wholeheartedly. We need to SEE the Imam when we pray. When I asked why they have the partition, I was told......because we live in times where we have to be more careful and we need to guard our deen. ::) |
| 02/11/04 at 00:30:41 |
| amkamb |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| timbuktu |
| 02/11/04 at 02:10:49 |
| [quote author=amkamb link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=10#10 date=02/11/04 at 00:27:34] Women ARE physically weaker. [/quote] perhaps, but I have a different opinion. :) Not all women. and they are stronger in many other ways than physique. I am amazed at the emotional strength of women. i mean, there was a survey that in case of separation or divorce or death of a spouse, women tend to live longer and healthier lives. I think where women are physically weaker is where they have been denied proper food and exercise, for example in the Indo-Pak subcontinent. |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| Dawn |
| 02/11/04 at 06:13:55 |
| [slm] [quote author=jannah link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=0#5 date=02/10/04 at 17:39:28]Interesting about Switzerland... are there any women on that board btw? [/quote] Well, there were two, up till the last election. Now there is only one. With this last election, the presidency got more male, older, and more conservative. This last election was not pretty -- all parties inciting and playing on the fears of the populace. :( Usually the Swiss are a lot more level headed. But there was a definite decrease in that with this last election. Perhaps next time ... [quote]Are men and women the same? physically, mentally obviously not..but why say women are weaker?[/quote] [quote] Women ARE physically weaker. It's a fact, isn't it? It's just that we don't like to be called weaker. The truth is we have been created that way.....for a reason. Allah has a reason for everything. [/quote] First, what do we mean by physically weaker? I presume simply basic muscular strength is being referred to by the original poster (how much can you press, squat, pull, etc.) Then, I guess if you mean that the "average woman" is physically weaker than the "average man" (if such personages even exist), you might be correct in this. But I have met plenty of very physically strong women (played ball with a number of them, actually) who are physically considerably stronger than the "average male". In my basketball playing days, I probably fell into this category myself, and actually might still (thought the "considerably" might be in question), but I haven't really compared myself recently. ::) [quote] i mean, there was a survey that in case of separation or divorce or death of a spouse, women tend to live longer and healthier lives. [/quote] By the same token, I have met some very emotionally weak women and some very emotionally strong and secure men. So, my point? I think we need to be very careful with generalizations. Or at least acknowledge that what we are stating ARE generalizations and realize that exceptions do exist and are not that uncommon. Just my $.02 on that. [quote] I think it's important for two people in a marriage to consult with each other. [/quote] I credit Jannah with a great understatement here. OK, maybe it's just me, but I don't see how it is even [i]possible[/i] for a marriage to be happy and fulfilling without mutual consultation and consistent compromise. (Thankfully, I have a hubby on the same wavelength with this one. :)) |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| amkamb |
| 02/11/04 at 12:16:53 |
| [slm], I don't know why there is objection to the use of the word "weaker"? Women ARE the weaker sex. Man has been given more strength than the woman. It's even in the Qur'an. Why argue with this fact? Just accept it. It is reality. Women are no match for men in physical strength. My husband is four times stronger than I am. He is bigger. These are plain facts. Women are not equal in strength....and that is the reason why you don't have boxing competitions between men and women....women don't go to the battlefield to fight. If there was a basketball game between men and women, I'll bet the women are sure to lose. Cricket matches are fun to watch when men are playing. When women play, there is less power. They get tired easily. Men play up to 5 sets in tennis matches whereas women play up to 3. I've never heard of Steffi Graf play with Andre Agassi and win. Women have their monthly cycles....become pregnant. All this makes them weaker and puts a lot of limitations on their activities. Women are fragile and delicate creatures. They were created from a rib. Handle with care!! Certainly, women are the weaker sex. But that does not mean they are inferior. Weak does not mean inferior. |
| 02/11/04 at 12:20:41 |
| amkamb |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| sohuman |
| 02/11/04 at 13:03:33 |
| [quote author=jannah link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=0#5 date=02/10/04 at 17:39:28]We multi-task better. We have better emotional quotients. [/quote] Women are not better, nor are men better except in righteousness. I don't think the question here is about which sex is better. I think it is about which sex has been given more power and strength. Sura 4:34: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard......" [wlm] |
| 02/11/04 at 13:11:28 |
| sohuman |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| Dawn |
| 02/11/04 at 13:23:19 |
| [slm] [quote author=amkamb link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=10#14 date=02/11/04 at 12:16:53] ....women don't go to the battlefield to fight. If there was a basketball game between men and women, I'll bet the women are sure to lose.[/quote] Actually, there are some cultures where women DO go to the battlefield to fight. And as for basketball games between men and women, where the [i]men[/i] have lost, well, actually, been there, done that. ;) And the issue wouldn't be whether Stefi can beat Andre or not, but rather what percentage of the male population on this planet of ours could actually return one of her serves. (So, I reiterate, we just need to be careful about applying general truths, meant to be generalizations, to individual cases. Statistics can tell you lots about large data sets, but really not a whole lot about a particular data point.) |
| 02/11/04 at 13:35:43 |
| Dawn |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| Maliha |
| 02/11/04 at 14:22:13 |
| [slm] umm...women were *Not* created from the rib of man...it is a Judeo/Christian myth that found itself into Islam. It is no where in the Quran...The Quranic version of our creation is found in Surah Nisa [4:1] about being created from a single *Nafs*. [quote] 004.001 O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single Person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- Fear God, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for God ever watches over you. [/quote] The ayah quoted in tha Quran [4:34] is mis-translated *badly* and its very problematic: [quote] 004.034 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. [/quote] The above is translated from "Bima Fadhalla Allahu Ba'3dhuhum 3ala Ba'3dh"...(sorry transliteration). The Fadhl here does not mean strength at all. Fadhl is simply favor and in that ayah, it doesn't specify what and who is favored over the other. What Dawn is saying makes sense...you can't generalize and the Quran doesn't make these arbitrary generalizations either. When speaking about the social role of men and women, it is based on our inherent capabilities and they do differ. But each of us is favored in different ways (which is the actual translation) and with the favor comes responsibility. Hence men are maintainers/supporters (which is another bad translation of Qawammun as it goes much deeper into establishing the deen of Allah and Justice at home and in the society...). Another aspect of that ayah that requires more analysis is Rijal. Who is considered a Rajul and why? There are many awesome analysis about this (Sh. Hamza yusuf gives an elaborate explanation that not every man is a Rajul, for the word Dhakar could have sufficed). I just did a research paper on this stuff, sorry that is why i am really getting into it. The idea, from literally the Quranic worldview, is that a woman is equal to a man in every sense of the letter spiritually...yet Socially we have dileanated strengths and corresponding roles to complement each other and facilitate a thriving society. Even in that system, there is a lot of flexibility. Sometimes we have to go back to the sources of Islam, purely the Quran and the Rasul's [saw] treatment of women...as even historically texts have been written that are very unfair towards women. I hope that made sense... Wa Allahu Ta'ala A'alam. Sis in struggle, :-) PS: I find it very difficult to understand how our covering/ being modest is linked to our weakness? [wlm] |
| 02/11/04 at 14:27:47 |
| Maliha |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 02/11/04 at 15:36:32 |
| [slm] the cow 2:228 ...and women shall have rights similar to the rights against them according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exhalted in Power, Wize. the word that translates as "a degree" is darajatun which acording to the Hans Wehr Arabic English dictionairy means: step, stair; flight of steps, stairs, staircase; degree step tone (scale of music[hmmm]); degree (math, geogr.; of temperature);grade, rate; degree order rank; class ( also, e.g. in trains, of a decoration [?]); phase, state, stage (of a development); mark, grade (in school). I hope that helps clear confusion about what Allah had to say about it. [wlm] |
| 02/11/04 at 15:39:55 |
| al-ajnabia |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| jannah |
| 02/11/04 at 17:06:46 |
| wlm, [quote] Women ARE the weaker sex. Man has been given more strength than the woman. It's even in the Qur'an. Why argue with this fact? Just accept it. It is reality. [/quote] I just don't agree. You may have your definition of what 'weaker' means but I have my own and it just doesn't make sense to me. I don't consider women the weaker sex. Unless you mean physically on the average? And because of that they have been abused and exploited throughout history until this very day - that is the reality I agree. (Hence the Ayah where Allah tells people that physical strength is one of responsibility and maintenance.) I agree that Allah has given us different roles and responsibilities. That He's made us different physically and mentally. As the examples we have given show, men and women have a lot of differences, strengths and weaknesses in different areas. Why think of childbirth and menses as a weakness? Only a strong person can go through those. Remember it's other traditions that attribute those things as weakness and punishment not Islam. Why would wearing hijab, having a mahram while traveling, etc be considered a weakness. These are things Allah has told us to do for a more beneficial happy life and society. (I don't even consider it to be because of the weakness of men.) I mean the fact that men have to go to jumuah or maintain the family is that considered a weakness? And please don't attribute things to the Quran when it's rather your interpretation. @sohuman no one is saying one is better than the other.. the point we're trying to bring out is that we're different, not "weaker" or "better" or whatever. can u compare apples and oranges? they're both fruit have the same purpose and stuff but are inherently different. |
| 02/11/04 at 17:21:02 |
| jannah |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| theOriginal |
| 02/11/04 at 17:31:21 |
| [slm] Okay umm...women were NOT created from the rib of man? I distinctly remember attending a lecture by Hamza Yusuf where he discussed exactly the fact that women ARE created from the rib of man, and what this means, etc. I mean he gave an awesome explanation, which I would kill if I attempted to elaborate...but pleeease clarification required! And I completely agree with those of you who are saying that women are not the weaker sex. I mean, the word "weaker" should not preceed the word "sex" in this way. Maybe we are weaker, in terms of a physical definition (that too, is a generalization...ever flipped through channels on TV to catch them female bodybuilders....not only is that incredibly scary, but it proves that some woman are stronger than most men), but even THAT is debateable. I mean seriously speaking, how many men could bear the pain of childbirth? Or forget childbirth, we will never be able to experiment with that. But how many of you have fathers, brothers, husbands, sons, etc...who stay in bed all day, when faced with the common cold. And then how many of you have mothers, sisters, wives, and daughters who go through the excruciating pain of getting their period every month, but still go about their daily routine of whatever they have to do. Pardon the graphic example. Beyond that, women need to be protected, but there are other reasons than women being the "weaker sex" to that. It's because of an inherant vulnerability. Women and men are different... and each of them have their weaknesses. Yeah, there is no such thing as an "equality" of sexes...but then how can there be? Even our physical, emotional, and intellectual compositions are different, and it would be really boring if we were all the same. Having said that, I think that there IS an "equity" of sexes. (OMG, I think I stole that off someone). Wasalaam. |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| sohuman |
| 02/11/04 at 18:01:25 |
| [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=10#16 date=02/11/04 at 14:22:13] [slm] umm...women were *Not* created from the rib of man...it is a Judeo/Christian myth that found itself into Islam. [/quote] Perhaps sister, I hope you believe what the Prophet [saw]said. Allah 's Apostle said, "Treat women nicely, for a woman is created from a rib, and the most curved portion of the rib is its upper portion, so, if you should try to straighten it, it will break, but if you leave it as it is, it will remain crooked. So treat women nicely." Sahih Bukhari Hadith 4:548 Now argue all you want. :D[slm] |
| 02/11/04 at 18:02:29 |
| sohuman |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| amkamb |
| 02/11/04 at 18:25:48 |
| [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=10#16 date=02/11/04 at 14:22:13] [slm] The above is translated from "Bima Fadhalla Allahu Ba'3dhuhum 3ala Ba'3dh"...(sorry transliteration). The Fadhl here does not mean strength at all. Fadhl is simply favor and in that ayah, it doesn't specify what and who is favored over the other. [/quote] [slm], How about taking a look at different translations of that verse. Allah is pretty clear I think. 1. Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath men the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). : Pickthall 2. Men are overseers over women because Allah has given the one more strength than other, and because men are required to spend their wealth for the maintenance of women......:Malik 3. Men shall take full care of women with the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on the former than on the latter: Asad Allah Himself tells us He gave more strength to the men, or if strength is not so obvious to you ::), then more favours. The question I was asking is WHY? |
| 02/11/04 at 18:28:36 |
| amkamb |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| sohuman |
| 02/11/04 at 18:42:06 |
| [quote author=jannah link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=10#18 date=02/11/04 at 17:06:46]wlm, .. the point we're trying to bring out is that we're different, not "weaker" or "better" or whatever. can u compare apples and oranges? they're both fruit have the same purpose and stuff but are inherently different. [/quote] I agree with you. Women are different, not equal. Apples and oranges are different, not equal though they are both fruits. ;) [slm] |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| nida |
| 02/11/04 at 20:49:26 |
| [slm] Just wanted to add in something. The word "weak" doesn't necessarily mean anything negative. For women, it just means they need to be protected by men-either husband/father/sons/brother. Just like a pearl, the jewel of the sea, is protected in the oyster shell. ;) The question abt WHY women are weaker--i don't think anyone can answer..i guess thats the way Allah wanted to create them. [wlm] :-) |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| M.F. |
| 02/12/04 at 04:09:45 |
| [quote author=amkamb link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=20#21 date=02/11/04 at 18:25:48] Allah Himself tells us He gave more strength to the men, or if strength is not so obvious to you ::), then more favours. The question I was asking is WHY? [/quote] Assalamu alaikum sister Don't take this the wrong way, and perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but I'm rather surprised that you're asking that question... WHY did Allah make women physically not as strong, or muscular or big or whatever you wanna call it, as men... what exactly do you want to get at by asking why? Is it so we can get to the question of men's responsibilities toward them and how they have been abused, are you trying to figure out Allah's hikmah in making one sex responsible over another, are you asking why should we be weak and men strong (I don't think that's your question). My question is: What are you driving at. Can you be more specific than "Why" ? jazakillah khair. |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| amkamb |
| 02/12/04 at 10:24:03 |
| [quote author=M.F. link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=20#24 date=02/12/04 at 04:09:45] My question is: What are you driving at. Can you be more specific than "Why" ? [/quote] [slm], perhaps my first post will shed some light: "I'm just writing to ask sisters here what they think about the term "equality of the sexes". Is there such a thing? I don't think so. Woman was created weaker than the man. So how can the sexes be equal? I was also wondering why Allah created the woman weaker. One sister asked me this question.....and I thought I might put it up here. " A sister here said that a family as a unit must have one head, or president....leader. And I think her I agree with her. She has pretty much answered the question. |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| jannah |
| 02/12/04 at 15:36:46 |
| I believe in "equality" of the sexes. A better word might be equity. And I don't believe women are the "weaker" sex. Sorry ::) There's a great book Dr. Jamal Badawi wrote on the equity of the genders. Check it out: www.jannah.org/genderequity 1. The term "equity" is used instead of the more common expression "equality," which is sometimes misunderstood to mean absolute equality in each and every detailed item of comparison rather than overall equality. Equity is used here to mean justice and overall equality in the totality of rights and responsibilities of both genders and allows for the possibility of variations in specific items wthin the overall balance and equality. It is analogous to two persons possessing diverse currencies amounting for each person, to the equaivalent of US $1000. While each of the two persons may possess more of one currency than the other, the total value still comes to US $1000 in each case. It should be added that from an Islamic perspective, the roles of men and women are complementary and cooperative rather than competitive. |
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| sohuman |
| 02/12/04 at 21:33:04 |
| [quote author=jannah link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=20#26 date=02/12/04 at 15:36:46]I believe in "equality" of the sexes. A better word might be equity. And I don't believe women are the "weaker" sex. Sorry ::) [/quote] Hmmm. I wonder....I thought you believed in the "difference" of the sexes. It is obvious both sexes are not equal in strength. And while on the topic, I want to ask........do you believe that men are stronger than women? |
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| Maliha |
| 02/12/04 at 22:12:22 |
| [slm] Subhana Allah, we should *really* be careful what worldview we are promoting. In Christian/Judeo perspective, women have really had it bad to say the least. Reading Genesis and the curse of the woman, menstruation, child birth, all the "evils" etc....I can't help but feel exonerated in the Islamic Light. Islam was revealed to the last of Humanity, and looking at the higher values of Islam alone, should tell us something about the beauty we ought to display. The Quran talks about *Justice*, Truth, uboodiya, etc. etc. All of humanity has a single purpose in life and that is to adore/worship Allah. If one Ayah summarizes our interdependence and stresses on our higher purpose in life it has to be this one: [quote] “The believing men and women are in charge of [supporters] of each other; they enjoin good and forbid evil they keep up prayers, render the purifying welfare dues [zakat] and obey God and His Messenger. It is they upon whom God will bestow His grace surely; God is All Mighty, All Wise” [9:71] [/quote] Connecting this so called "weakness" to the necessity of covering does not make sense to me?! can someone please explain that to me??? Besides that, I still disagree about the very definition of what is weak? I mean on the physical level alone we give birth! Whoa! how amazing is that?! Besides strength takes on many forms...if its on "average" physical strength, then we are created with different capacities. And looking at it from this perspective, really drives home the point of *equity* and not equality. Sis, you asked why Allah created us different? And the underlying bottom line is that in our differences we complement each other, and in that beautiful union we move with the cycles of the universe, to procreate, give life, spirit, and love....all under the umbrella of Allah's Mercy and Guidance. Wa Allahu Ta'ala A'alam. Sis in Islam, :-) [wlm] PS: I talking to a Mureed of Hadith in our area, about the Rib hadith you quoted above. Inshaallah I will let you know what he tells me, put in the proper context of when the Rasul [saw] said it, on what occasion, what was meant, and the actual arabic version which tends to be messed up in english translations... BTW: Sis Amakamb, translations of the Quran never quite capture the actual words of Allah...And those that you put up there, we discussed in a Quranic studies class and came to the conclusion that linguistically it is messed up. The analysis came from a shaykh who studied in Azhar for over fifty years..so don't take my word for it... sigh..aight, i am out... |
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| timbuktu |
| 02/13/04 at 00:27:39 |
| [slm] a very illuminating topic. someone have mentioned "childbirth". Indeed it is amazing. If we males have eaten just a little more and carry that extra burden for a while, we complain loudly, cannot sleep, and when our body is unable to get rid of that extra burden, the pain is unbearable, yet women carry quite a substantial weight of an external body inside them for nine months, and the pain is such that i cannot even be in a place where birth is taking place, so women are "stronger", or perhaps their "pain threshhold" is higher. and what is even more amazing is that most women do want to have a baby, (or should I say, a series of babies). my hat off to women. |
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| sohuman |
| 02/13/04 at 21:47:13 |
| [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=20#28 date=02/12/04 at 22:12:22]...translations of the Quran never quite capture the actual words of Allah...And those that you put up there, we discussed in a Quranic studies class and came to the conclusion that linguistically it is messed up. The analysis came from a shaykh who studied in Azhar for over fifty years..so don't take my word for it... ...[/quote] [slm], Perhaps this shaykh who studied in Azhar for over fifty years should do the English translation. The rest of the translators don't seem to have got it right. [] [slm] |
| 02/13/04 at 21:55:01 |
| sohuman |
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| Humility |
| 02/13/04 at 22:54:05 |
| [slm], Quite an interesting topic. Islam is a wonderful religion. Allah and His Messenger have already given us guidance in every sphere of life. The beauty of it is.......our opinions don't matter one bit. Only Allah's opinion matters, for He alone knows the Truth about everything. Now I really hope none of you are going to argue with this point. "[i]It is not fitting for a Believer man or woman when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Apostle to have any option about their decision: if anyone disobeys Allah and His Apostle he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.[/i] " 33:36 The question seems to be why Allah created the woman weaker, and I see that there is a refusal here to acknowledge this fact. A refusal that indicates pride. I wonder what would have happened if Allah indeed had given the woman equal strength. Even more pride I suppose. You see, if a woman refuses to believe she is weaker than the man, then she will never submit to him, out of her pride. Let's look at the complete verse in the Qur'an with reference to this issue: "[i]Men are the protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct admonish them (first) (next) refuse to share their beds (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High Great (above you all). [/i] 4:34 "Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient " A person who is equal in strength and power will not obey. Hence, this is the reason why Allah created the woman weaker. She was created so that she would obey the man. And if she disobeys, the man can even beat her (as per the Qur'an). I hope this answers the question. |
| 02/13/04 at 22:55:44 |
| Humility |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 02/13/04 at 23:22:19 |
| [slm] It takes incredible strength to be obedient. It is not men who control women, it is women who choose to obey. It can be a matter of pride to obey. It can also be a matter of experience. I for one have seen things I never would have known because I could be depended upon to follow orders and not break rank even in some really chaotic environments, but that doenst mean I obey everybody actually that means exactly that I dont obey just anybody. It gives me insight into my own decision makeing (who I decide to obey and why) to study the translations of the quran and even now that I 'm learing a little arabic the words themselves. I think women are too diverse in natures to make sweeping geralizations about what obedience means to them all. Allah did a good job of laying it out in the Quran, but all the subtlties of it as they apply to all the subtleties of our lives are lost to us english speakers a bit, atleast in terms of making binding general decisions, because translations of every kind of writing are unreliable and untrustworty. We can only use translations as a support, but they are not as realiable as the actual Quran. I've had a little luck cross referencing individual arabic word usage, but I'm only coming up with very personal translations, that only support me to obey the people I obey. This is starting to ramble so I'll bring it home now, obediance is built upon obediance, it can be difficult to re-estabish when it has been broken, and sometimes extreem willfullness masquarades as obediance. Sometimes when we dont see the reason behind an order, we try to bypas the person giving it by claiming to obey Allah only to eventually realize we have both denied good guidace from a knowledgable person in our circle and managed to go against Allah too. I dont know how to be plain about this so I'll quit. Salaam, |
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| sohuman |
| 02/14/04 at 01:56:13 |
| [quote author=al-ajnabia link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=30#32 date=02/13/04 at 23:22:19] that doenst mean I obey everybody actually that means exactly that I dont obey just anybody. [/quote] [slm], Women are commanded to obey their husbands and acknowledge them as head of household. That is righteousness for the woman. |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 02/14/04 at 09:52:25 |
| [slm] well, thats the point isnt it. That a woman doesnt have to obey absolutley everybody but only some people. that she isnt a no status slave who must meet the needs of anyone who sees here and has a desire for her to do anything that comes to mind. Obedience didnt start with the message, it has always been part of life, it was limited by the message and woman's burden was lightened by it. Salaam, |
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| M.F. |
| 02/14/04 at 11:12:59 |
| [quote author=Humility link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=30#31 date=02/13/04 at 22:54:05] [slm], She was created so that she would obey the man. And if she disobeys, the man can even beat her (as per the Qur'an). I hope this answers the question. [/quote] Woah!!!!!!! Excuse me but.... Woman was created to obey man?? Basically that means Allah created women to be slaves for men??? Doesn't Allah clearly state in the Qur'an that we were all created to serve HIM Subhanahu wa ta3ala? Women were created weaker so that they would obey???? Obey MEN?? And to say that the Qur'an allows men to beat women if they disobey is a HUGE misunderstanding of the Qur'an, of Islam, of the Sunnah and of everything else that Muslims go by. If you even read the tafsir of the Ayah that you quoted that mentions beating, you'll know that it's a very last resort in case of extreme "going off the path" if you will, and mere "disobedience" does not justify what we translate as "beating". As a woman, I don't understand what you define weakness as, except for overall weaker musculature. And physical weakness definitely doesn't imply obedience and physical strength doesn't imply being the master unless you're talking about the jungle. Women are certainly different from men, Allah says it himself in Surat Aal Imran: "And the male is not like the female". That's pretty clear. But I believe the "why" of this question is again what Allah said in surat Ar-Rum: "And among his signs is that he created for you wives so that you may find comfort in them and he placed between you love and mercy" Didn't Allah originally create Hawwa to be a companion to Adam who was lonely? |
| NS |
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| Humility |
| 02/14/04 at 12:43:16 |
| [quote author=M.F. link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=30#35 date=02/14/04 at 11:12:59] Women were created weaker so that they would obey???? Obey MEN?? [/quote] [slm], Sister, Why does reality offend you? Here is a hadith that declares without doubt that women are supposed to submit to their husbands: Narrated Aisha: Once when Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) was with a number of the Emigrants and Helpers a camel came and prostrated itself before him. Thereupon his companions said, "Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) beasts and trees prostrate themselves before you, but we have the greatest right to do so." He replied, "Worship your Lord and honour your brother. If I were to order anyone to prostrate himself before another, I should order a woman to prostrate herself before her husband. If he were to order her to convey stones from a yellow mountain to a black one, or from a black mountain to a white one, it would be incumbent on her to do so." Ahmad transmitted it. Al-Timidhi:963 |
| NS |
| 02/14/04 at 12:44:40 |
| Humility |
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| sohuman |
| 02/14/04 at 12:59:25 |
| [quote author=M.F. link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=30#35 date=02/14/04 at 11:12:59] And to say that the Qur'an allows men to beat women if they disobey is a HUGE misunderstanding of the Qur'an, of Islam, of the Sunnah and of everything else that Muslims go by. [/quote] [slm], A misunderstanding? Hmmmm. I think some of the sisters here will do much good if they were to translate the Qur'an for us and explain to us precisely where the English translators have translated the Arabic text all wrong. It will be much appreciated if they could enlighten us poor folk who don't really understand what the Qur'an says. [] |
| NS |
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| Maliha |
| 02/14/04 at 19:29:13 |
| [slm] This post is distressing on many levels and symptomatic of a larger problem we have as an Ummah. First, When all else fails why the need to resort to Sarcasm?! Stick to the issue, with logic and evidence....and really stick to the issue without trying to deflect it, into I am "higher than thou" attitude... Second, ayahs, hadiths, etc. are *not* to be taken out of context. You can't present anyone with one hadith, ayahs, etc. to prove your point with the exclusion of a *whole* body of knowledge. Third, everyone known translations have mad issues. The best generations before us (especially the first three) would *rush* to learn arabic, the moment they became Muslims. They developed amazing sophisticated sciences of critique, logic, Fiqh, hadith, methodology of analysis..that remain unparallelled in all of human history to *date*. Yet the pettiness of today's disconnection from the essence, the Quran, is seen in just how many people are depending on other's interpretation, translation, and understanding of the Quran. The original Quran was revealed in Arabic..the purest, highest form remains in Arabic. Anyone who really wants to truly understand what the Quran is saying in the deepest sense, has to learn the language. There is no getting away from that... Fourth: There are basic principles of Islam that can not be violated when looking at any issue. We can't start talking about women in Islam, and end up discussing whether a woman was created to "obey" her husband or not. What is the essence of Islam?! Surrender to Allah...to try and support that woman was created "for obedience to her husband" we have to ignore the principles of Tawheed, Tazkiya, Civilization, the principles of commonsense, and to try to support that statement with a disjointed ayah of the Quran and a hadith (both outside their context) is to do a great Disservice to Islam. Lastly, Islam in itself is a beautiful, logical, amazing, way of looking at the world. All the higher principles of Islam,need to be ingrained in our souls, so that we don't fall into the same traps other traditions fell into. In the context of the West, and the pressing need for Dawah, we have to apply Hikma...mad people are running away from Islam, even Muslims....and if we don't reach back to the roots and principles that awed generations before us into submission, of heart, mind, and actions...then we are losing the battle before we even began. At the end of the day, we will all be questioned for what we say. So with lotsa of Istighfaar, I am leaving this discussion. May Allah increase us in knowlege, guidance and Hikma (Amin). Sis in Struggle, :-) [wlm] |
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| sohuman |
| 02/14/04 at 22:59:21 |
| [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=30#38 date=02/14/04 at 19:29:13] First, When all else fails why the need to resort to Sarcasm?! Stick to the issue, with logic and evidence....and really stick to the issue without trying to deflect it, into I am "higher than thou" attitude... [/quote] [slm] Yes, sister I totally agree. Stick to the issue. And as for logic and evidence, you need to provide all that from the Qur'an and Sunnah. Not from your own head. Of course I agree. |
| 02/14/04 at 23:02:39 |
| sohuman |
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| Anonymous |
| 02/15/04 at 01:54:52 |
| slm, Excerpt taken from Asma Barlas "Islam, women, and equality — II": http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_20-5-2003_pg3_3 Thus, contrary to what many Muslims claim, the Qur’an does not establish men as ontologically superior to women or as rulers over them; rather, it designates women and men as each other’s “guides” (awliya) and establishes love and mutuality as the basis of marriage. Moreover, in Islam sexual equality is ontological in that the Qur’an teaches that God created humans from a single self (nafs). It does not privilege the man’s creation or endow him with attributes or faculties not given to the woman. Rather, humans “manifest the whole” (Sachiko Murata, The Tao of Islam: A Sourcebook on Gender Relationships in Islamic Thought, Albany: SUNY, 1992, p. 43; her emphasis). The Qur’an also does not define men and women as opposites, or portray women as lesser or defective men, or the two sexes as incompatible, incommensurable, or unequal. In fact, it does not even associate sex with gender; thus, while the Qur’an recognises biological differences, it does not assign them any gender symbolism making it difficult to derive a theory of sexual and gender inequality from its teachings. The Qur’an also does not link women and men to specific gender roles. There is not a single verse that suggests that men’s gender roles are a function of their biology, or that biological differences between men and women make them unequal. Therefore, while the Qur’an does treat women and men differently with respect to some issues this doesn’t mean that it establishes them as unequal. For one thing, difference in itself does not imply inequality. For another, the Qur’an does not tie its different treatment of women and men to any claims about biological superiority or inferiority. The only basis on which Islam does distinguish between human beings is on the basis of their moral praxis...; as Sachiko Murata (p. 44) says it “distinguishes between those who have faith and those who do not: the ‘believers’ and the ‘unbelievers.’ In all the perspectives of Islamic life and thought people are separated into groups according to the degree to which they fulfill the purpose of life.’” It is not just on the basis of such teachings that I describe the Qur’an as antipatriarchal, but also on the basis of the claim that the antipatriarchal nature of Qur’anic epistemology flows from Islamic conceptualisations of God. This part of my argument maintains that since there is an intrinsic relationship between God Being’s and God’s Speech, we need to connect them, which means we need to base our readings of the Qur’an in our understanding of God. For instance, the doctrine of Tawhid maintains that God is One and God’s sovereignty/rule is indivisible. To my mind, this means that we should not read the Qur’an as designating men as rulers over women, or as intermediaries between God and women, since this constitutes shirk. Similarly, the Qur’an teaches that God is Just and never does zulm to people (zulm, in the Qur’anic context, means transgressing against another’s rights). As such, I believe God’s Speech also cannot teach transgression against the rights of humans. Since patriarchies do transgress against women’s rights by oppressing them, I argue that the Qur’an cannot possibly endorse them and we should read its provisions with this idea in mind. Likewise, the Qur’an teaches that God is unrepresentable; as such, linguistic references to God as “He” should be seen as limitations of human language and not accurate statements about God’s Reality. If we apply such criteria to read the Qur’an and also read it for its best meanings and as a thematic whole, privileging its clear verses over its allegorical, as the Qur’an itself recommends, then we arrive at an interpretation that captures the radically egalitarian nature of its teachings. Asma Barlas is associate professor and chair of Politics at Ithaca College, New York. To be concluded next time |
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| jannah |
| 02/15/04 at 02:19:13 |
| slm, well here are the facts... say if someone makes a general statement and then there is an exception (or many exceptions) to the statement, is the statement true or not? i think in a case like that the statement has to be more specific to be true. so to say "women are weaker than men" is a fallacy.. because it is so general and there are too many holes and exceptions in the statement. to say "women are generally weaker than men physically" is more accurate now as to what islam says about this... it is amazing to me that people can bring a specific translation of a verse or a hadith or an islamic law (like hijab?!) and twist it to support their own docmatic conclusions. quoting out of context definitely does nothing for your argument. for example, the hadith about prostration is about respect and honor, it is not about obedience and submission. in islam, we are not allowed to bow or prostrate to anyone except God. the context of this hadith is not to show obedience and submission but the love and respect and dependence a wife has upon her husband. the quran and hadith and sunnah and islamic law in general clearly lay out the grounds for islamic equity of the genders. please go read jannah.org/genderequity you will find all the verses and hadith in context to explain the stance of Islam on this issue. btw humlity and sohuman are you the same person? because you seem to be posting from the same account |
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| amkamb |
| 02/15/04 at 11:55:53 |
| [slm], When I started this thread, I had no idea there was going to be so much disagreement. It seems like a lot of fighting is going on. Please, I don't mean to offend anyone or anything, but I think it is better to leave this topic alone. Is there any way to stop this? :o |
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| sohuman |
| 02/15/04 at 16:48:44 |
| [quote author=Anonymous link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=40#40 date=02/15/04 at 01:54:52] Excerpt taken from Asma Barlas "Islam, women, and equality — II": [/quote] [slm], I am not interested in reading an article written by a woman who is shown in that web site without her hijab. But here is a web site I urge you to visit: http://www.themuslimwoman.com/herrole/attributesofrighteouswife.htm I think as women, we need to learn what the attributes are of a righteous wife. |
| 02/15/04 at 17:31:13 |
| sohuman |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 02/15/04 at 17:39:21 |
| [slm] Sis sohuman, why dont you tell us what your backgound is so that we know how to weigh your opinions about Quran and Sunnah. Even learned Sheukh can only give opinions on this issue. Since this topic has been discusse dhere I have seen that there are majority opinions and minority opinions, there are weak arguments and strong arguments but I have also seen that it is an issue phat gets a lot of knee jerk reactionisms as well. As far as I am concerened, I only want to hear what people honestly feel and why they feel that way about it, and I take people a whole lot more seriously when they present themselves for what they are, whatever they may be. I dont know what it takes to get this subject locked. Is there a smiley for an egg fight? Well thats just my funky take on it, Salaam, |
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| Anonymous |
| 02/16/04 at 03:44:13 |
| [quote]I am not interested in reading an article written by a woman who is shown in that web site without her hijab.[/quote] slm, Well sis, it's your choice. I can't force you to read anything but it certainly is not fair to dismiss what a muslim women has to say because she does not don the head scarf. I obeserve the hijab but I don't believe that automatically makes me more learned or pious than those who don't. The attributes of a righteous husband are missing. Do you mind posting that up for us as well? Thank You. |
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| MIT |
| 02/16/04 at 08:02:37 |
| as-salaamu alaikum This is taken from the Salim Morgan's website on the section of a husband's rights over a woman: [quote]Being the Head of the Household When one thinks of the rights of the husband, this is probably one of the first things which comes to mind. However, a serious question must be asked: Is this a right of the husband or another right of the wife? Allah said: {Ar-rijaalu qawwaamoona 'alaa an-nisaa'i bimaa fadh-dhala Allahu ba'dhahum 'alaa ba'dhin wa bimaa anfaqoo min amwaalihim. Fa as-saalihaatu qaanitaatun haafidhaatun lil ghaibi bimaa hafidha Allahu...} {Men are in charge of women by that with which Allah has preferred some of them over others and by that which they spend from their property. So the pious women are obedient protecting in absence that which Allah has protected...} An-Nisaa:34 The verse seems to present a great right of the husband over the wife. Upon deeper thought, it is clear that this verse actually points to a right of the wife and an obligation of the husband. The word for "in charge of" in Arabic indicates also support, protection and responsibility on the part of the husband for his wife. This does not just mean that he is the "boss" or the dictator in the house and whatever he says goes. Rather, it means that he has a heavy obligation to lead his family. Remember the hadith from the previous section, where in one version of the hadith about the "shepherds", the Prophet (sas) continues: "...hattaa yus'ala ar-rajulu 'an ahli baitihi: a aqaama feehim shar'a Allahi am adhaa'a?" "...until the man will be asked about the people in his household: did he establish among them the law of Allah or did he allow it to become lost?" Like any kind of leader or ruler, he will be held accountable before Allah Most High: did he make the decision that is most befitting for his family in this life and the hereafter or did he simply follow his desires? Did he do what was just and right or simply do what he liked to do? In Allah's infinite wisdom, he did not leave the basic foundation of Islamic society - the family - without organization, leadership and guidance. It is clearly upon the husband's shoulders and is his responsibility. It is upon him to fulfill that responsibility in the correct manner. Likewise, Muslim women must learn to accept this situation and this ruling of Allah Most High. They should resist becoming like the disbelieving women, particularly in the "West", who are trying to take over as head of the household or think that it should be shared equally between the two spouses. The rapid degeneration and disappearance of the institution of marriage since the spreading of this corrupt belief is the clearest proof of all that it is not only against Allah's order and His plan for us, but also against human nature and completely out of touch with reality and unworkable. I believe that the latest figures are that over HALF of the children in the U.S. are being raised in single-parent homes! Women who follow the kuffar and their own desires in being jealous of the man's role and trying to claim some or all of it for themselves should think about the hadith of the Prophet (sas): "La'ana rasoolu Allahi (sas) ar-rajulata min an-nisaa'i." "Allah's Messenger (sas) cursed manly women." Again, like all rights and obligations in Islam (in marriage and other areas), it is important that BOTH parties understand them and exert their best efforts to apply them in the way that is pleasing to Allah Most High. To Be Obeyed As we saw in the verse from An-Nisaa quoted previously, it is the right of the husband that his wife obey him. This obedience, however, does not include anything which is disobedience to Allah. The Prophet (sas) said: "Laa taa'ata fiy ma'siyatin. Innamaa at-taa'atu fiy al-ma'roofi." "No obedience in what is sinful. Obedience is only in what is right." Muslim & Bukhari Two things are now clear: 1) a woman is obligated to obey her husband, and 2) no Muslim may obey anyone in what is disobedience to Allah. Additionally, one strong opinion limits the required obedience of the wife to those duties being described in this chapter. In other words, the husband should not seek to control every detail of her life, even in things which have no direct impact on his rights as her husband. What happens if there is a conflict between obeying one's husband and obeying one's parents? Scholars have taken two opinions on this matter. One that obedience to the husband always takes precedence over obedience to parents. Others have taken the position that obedience to one's parents takes precedence since Allah has described being undutiful to one's parents as one of the greatest sins after associating partners with Allah. First of all, it is clear that the obligation of every Muslim toward their parents is very great just as the obligation of a Muslim wife to respect and obey her husband is very great. Parents should be aware that they have entered their daughter into a contract which requires her to obey her husband. Likewise, husbands should be aware of the fact that their wives have a great obligation toward their parents. When these two come into conflict, someone is probably not acting properly. When the two do come into conflict, it seems clear that the strongest opinion is that the rights of the husband take precedence over the rights of her parents, as in the following hadith from Aisha: "I asked the Prophet (sas): Who has the greatest right over a woman? He (sas) said: Her husband. I said: And who has the greatest right over a man? He (sas) said: His mother." (Al-Haakim - taken from Fiqh As-Sunnah)"[/quote] http://www.java-man.com/Pages/Marriage/Marriage08b.html And here is the link to women's rights over men from which i've taken the following passage: [quote]Not to be Beaten It is the right of the Muslim wife that she is not to be struck except in the case of nushooz (rebellion against the husband's authority). Even in that case, the husband is only allowed to "strike" her, but in a way which does no harm, similar to the proper disciplining of a child. It is never lawful for him to strike her face or cause her any bruise or injury. Allah says in the Qur'an: {...Wa allaatiy takhaafoona nushoozahunna fa'idhoohunna wahjuroohunna fiy al-madhaaji'i wadhriboohunna fa in ata'nakum falaa tabghoo 'alaihinna sabeelan inna Allaha kaana 'aliyyan kabeeran.} {...And (as for) those (women) from whom you anticipate rebellion, admonish them, avoid them in the sleeping place and hit them. If they obey you, do not desire and further way to (harm) them. Surely, Allah is Knowing, Great.} An-Nisaa:34 It is incomprehensible how so many translators have translated the word "wadhriboohunna" in the above verse as "beat them" or, even more laughable: "beat them [lightly]". This is wrong, wrong, wrong. It is an abomination which has caused much misunderstanding and opened the door to the enemies of Islam. The word in Arabic means to "strike" or "hit". It inludes everything from a tap with a tooth-stick to what in English we call beating. If it is stated that so-and-so "hit" so-and-so without further description, it would be assumed to be a single blow and it could be of any magnitude. When the Prophet (sas) took a tiny stick and tapped one of the Muslims on the stomach to straighten the ranks in preparation for war, he "hit" him with this meaning. Contrast this to the English phrase: "beat them". The meaning is totally different. If you took a shoe lace and hit someone on the hand with it, you could properly say dharabtahu in Arabic but in English you could never say that you had "beaten" that person. Please get this straight and correct anyone you hear distorting the meaning of this verse in this way. The verse mentions admonition, boycotting and hitting in the case of nushooz. This refers to a rebellion against the husband's authority within the marriage which amounts to a breach of the marriage contract on her part. Ibn Taimia said about this: "Nushooz in the verse: {...And (as for) those (women) from whom you anticipate rebellion (nushooz)...} means that she is recalcritrant to her husband and she is estranged to him inasmuch as she does not obey him when he calls her to bed, or she leaves the house without his permission and other similar things in which she is required to obey him." Many scholars have stated that the three steps must be taken sequentially, i.e, admonition then separation in sleeping and finally hitting, making hitting a last resort only in extreme situations. Thus the vast majority of whan men do to their wives in spontaneous fits of rage often over trivial issues is absolutely haraam and not sanctioned by Islam in any way. An-Nawawi said about his: "At the first indication of disobedience to marital authority, a wife should be exhorted by her husband without his immediately breaking off relations with her. When she manifests her disobedience by an act which, although isolated, leaves no doubt to her intentions, he should repeat his exhortations and confine her to the house but without striking her... Only when there are repeated acts of disobedience may a husband strike his wife." As we said, this can NEVER be a "beating". A husband is never allowed to strike his wife in any way which causes injury or leaves any kind of mark. The Prophet (sas) said: "Fattaqoo Allaha fiy an-nisaa'i fa innakum akhadhtumoohunna bi amaani Allahi wa istahlaltum furoojahunna bi kalimati Allahi wa lakum 'alaihinna an laa yooti'na furushakum ahadan takrahoonahu fa in fa'alna dhaalika fadhriboohunna dharban ghaira mubarrihin wa lahunna 'alaikum rizquhunna wa kiswatuhunna bi al-ma'roofi." "So beware of Allah regarding women for you have taken them as a trust from Allah and you have made their bodies lawful with the word of Allah. You have the right over them that they should not allow anyone on your furnishings who you dislike. If they do that, hit them in a way which causes no injury. And, they have the right over you to provision and clothing according to custom." Bukhari & Muslim[/quote] http://www.java-man.com/Pages/Marriage/Marriage08a.html |
| NS |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| MIT |
| 02/16/04 at 08:24:09 |
| as-salaamu alaikum Are those who reject the opinion that a woman doesn't have to obey* her husband aware that there is an opinon which states that she does indeed have to obey him? Are those who believe that a woman MUST obey her husband aware, that among the four schools of thought there is an opinion that a husband MUST provide his wife with a servant? The point is that there is some difference of opinion on this issue. I think its because of the Dhulm/Extremism of those who believe the wife must submit in the fullest sense of the word that we, moderates (not modernists) now have to deal with the opposite extreme of people like Dr. Asma Barlas, and her ilk. They are a group of scholars who ultimately desire an overhaul of the shari'ah with a view to producing a new breed of scholars in tafsir, fiqh and hadith. -- I do have a question for those who demand that a woman must submit to a husband in the utmost sense of the word, are they happy to give their own daughters to men who hold the same opinion as them, and would apply it as they apply it on their own wives? * obey in the shar'i meaning. |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| amkamb |
| 03/03/04 at 11:26:52 |
| [quote author=MIT link=board=sis;num=1076386408;start=40#47 date=02/16/04 at 08:24:09]I do have a question for those who demand that a woman must submit to a husband in the utmost sense of the word, are they happy to give their own daughters to men who hold the same opinion as them, and would apply it as they apply it on their own wives? [/quote] I'm not sure what you mean by submitting to a husband in the utmost sense of the word? Righteous women are those who are devoutly obedient to their husbands, as long as their husbands are following the commandments of Allah. I would teach my daughter to be obedient to her husband. And I would not give my daughter in marriage to any man who is not obedient to Allah. Just how much a man obeys Allah is indicated by how much he fears Allah. |
| Re: Equality of the Sexes |
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| tahirah |
| 03/05/04 at 00:24:49 |
| as salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullah, before this post took a bad turn it was really funny.....the 'eid salah story! haven't us sister's all been through that!?! :D I remember when our masjid was a small duplex (we couldn't afford much back then, the old days when my mom could only identify the brothers by their shoes, hehehe) and the sisters prayed in a separate room. of course the men thought that as long as the sisters have that wonderful micropone system they have all they need.....there was a prayer in which the mic failed. some people were in sujood forever, some people got up and just assumed the imam had continued, and some people just interrupted their salah and walked into the other room where the brothers were praying. then! another salah in the masjid full of new muslimahs and muslimahs who aren't used to going to masajid in their home country. the imam recites an ayat with a sujood in it....just imagine the confusion...some in rukooh, some in sujoood, then the rest of the prayer in total chaos (on the sister's side only, of course). so why don't the sister's explain afterwards you ask? well, it's a lot harder when you can't prove what position the imam was in during the salah, they tend to think that he just made an error of saying an extra Allahu akbar.....and the men who had no problems in their salah see no need to clarify wat is already clear to them. i guess it is hard for the brothers to understand when they have the benefit of full access to the imam (hearing, seeing, etc) ma'a salaama tahirah |
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