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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| A Question. |
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| deenb4dunya |
| 02/09/04 at 23:36:12 |
| Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullaah, I don't know how many of you heard about the imaam in Spain who was imprisoned because he wrote a book about the Islamic method for wife-beating. [You can see the article at http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=ummah;action=display;num=1074550513 ] Anyhow, my English, who is a very devout Christian, and I were discussing this article, and he was really curious to know whether in Islaam men can really beat their wives or if this imaam was simply an "extremist"... So basically, my question is what is the Islamic opinion on this matter...? What are the rules/guidelines governing this law...? etc Wassalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullaah, Mujaahada :-) PS- for those of you who have cut and paste fatwaas that you dont want to post since it's against madina rules, feel free to IM me :) |
| 02/10/04 at 16:21:12 |
| deenb4dunya |
| Re: Wife-beating in Islam? |
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| jannah |
| 02/10/04 at 01:31:07 |
| wlm, you can check out Dr. Jamal Badawi's article on it at jannah.org/genderequity the "islamic method of wife-beating" or "wife-beating in islam" sound pretty offensive... maybe you can change the titles so it doesn't seem that islam condones domestic abuse. |
| Re: Wife-beating in Islam? |
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| Nomi |
| 02/10/04 at 02:47:44 |
| [slm] I just thought that comments of a backward guy like me living among very backward scholars will be a good impact (but its just the weirdo me who thinks this way... mean the impact thingy) Comments would be... "Only morons hit their wives as in "hitting" them, they should try hitting someone male and someone of their own size (if they are wife beating chickens)" [slm] Backward Muslim ps: Hyper, i know i still wasn't able to beat you when it comes to impressing sisters ;D .. ur just too good at it ::) ;) |
| 02/10/04 at 02:48:41 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Wife-beating in Islam? |
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| Maliha |
| 02/10/04 at 08:07:06 |
| [slm] An interesting view point i heard recently about this issue, is that Allah sent the revelation in stages. The perfect example of how gradual transformation took place, was with the ayahs of prohibition of wine (and intoxicants)...and how they went from ambivalence to strong "do not even go near.." . For some issues the Quran specifically took care of the whole process, for others the stage was set for the beginning of a gradual reform that was *to* continue. An example of the former, where the Quran took care of the prohibition/transformation process is alcohol and adultery. The second process, where the stage was set for gradual transformation is the issue of slavery and women. If you look at slavery, it is amazing how the doors for freeing slaves were set up, and the ones for acquisition were closed. The best abolition method to date, as it worked hand to hand with changing the paradigm of the people involved. The issue of women...one only has to take a look at Pre Islamic arabia to see the tremendous difference. The ayahs of polygamy were brought down not only to answer a specific social problem (with the war, orphans etc), but to also place conditions and restrictions on a society where a man can have unlimited wives, concubines, etc..and not have any responsibility towards them. In those ayahs of Polygamy Allah states His preference for Monogamy (due to the hardship of upholding the Justice conditions). [quote] 004.003 If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice. [/quote] The issue of equity and justice towards women, had to be taken in the context of the society where infants were buried without any qualms, and women could be inherited, killed, punished without any dire repercussions. The women who suffered most were those who belonged to the lower class tribes, as Noble women at least had the backing of their tribe and position/status in society. The issue of trying to fix marital discord has to be looked at in the larger context of what is the world view of the Quran, what societal changes was it aiming to achieve, what is the context within which those changes were implemented and took place? Some ulamah said the beating that is mentioned in the Quran, [4:32] is simply a symbolic one. Just enough to show the man's anger...and can not be harder than a Miswak or feathers. Others insisted that the word "Dharaba" means separate from them. In both instances the "beating" is not condoned, and this is taken directly from the example of the Rasul [saw] who never beat or physically punish any of his wives..even when things got really tough. With the rest of the Quranic and Prophetic [saw] injunctions that insist on Justice, Equity, Kindness, Compassion, and the higher values of life...the beating of a woman does not have a place in Islam. And one sister who is an advocate against domestic abuse, said one thing that struck me. "Those Muslim men that beat up their wives, and use this ayah as an excuse...normally have a lot of issues, that by the time you talk to them you realize the Quran is *not* their Guide in any aspect of life". The main point is, an abuser would abuse any text...and conveniently forget/exclude a lot of other injunctions in the process. The delicate blindness of the sinner... Wa Allahu Ta'ala A'lam. Sis in struggle, :-) PS: As if this post is not long enuff...i just wanted to add.. the choice of words/title/book the Imam wrote did not make sense...it seems like Hikma has run away from the basic Muslim intellect today. [wlm] |
| 02/10/04 at 14:51:52 |
| Maliha |
| Re: Wife-beating in Islam? |
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| stranger |
| 02/10/04 at 14:07:34 |
| Salam Alaikum. As for the Imam in Spain, I don't know exactly what he wrote regarding the topic but as long as it is in accordance with the Quran and the Sunnah, then there should not really be a problem with him amongst the Muslims. As for the person that wrote: [quote]For some issues the Quran specifically took care of the whole process, for others the stage was set for the beginning of a gradual reform that was *to* continue.[\quote] I highly disagree with this on the basis of prophet Muhammeds last sermon in which it says that on this day, the religion has been completed. So no, there is no reform to continue. What is from Islam is universal for all times. Let us remember however that we have to be merciful towards others. I suggest you read the story of Prophet Job (alaihis salaam) somewhere on this website. It shows that yes, through all the betrayal, the prophet had the right to beat his wife, but he yet chose to be merciful towards her and at the same time, he fulfilled his promise by beating her. So don't be trapped by this secularist notion of being "backward" just because your limits are not set by them, but by a God they may not even believe in. Assalmu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu |
| Re: Wife-beating in Islam? |
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| Maliha |
| 02/10/04 at 14:34:08 |
| [slm] stranger, I did not mean a reform of Islam, but *social* reform which is a different matter all together. Today every single society in the world needs reform, and that is the Islamic reform even the so called *islamic* societies for one. Another aspect, is with changing social conditions, Allah gave us the blessing of Ijtihaad. Islam has all the answers, and the Quran is universal but for it to be universal, it has to answer changing times and needs of people from different cultural backgrounds, environments, etc. The concept of Ijtihaad is not an innovation, it was practiced by the Salaf, the tabi3een and so on. In varied situations, an average layman can not (and should not) go to the Quran and simply extract an ayah out of context, or pick up a hadith and assume that is the way forward...it is advisable to ask those who *know*. Also, there are many situations we are dealing with now..that weren't in existence at the time of the Rasul [saw]. I feel frustrated when people simplistically say stuff like "The Quran and hadith is all we need" yet have no clue on how to practically apply those injunctions in a world festering with complexities of madness and corruption. If we are willing to apply our whole lives studying alien systems of thought and practicing to be engineers, doctors, etc. what makes us think that establishing an Islamic life, environment, society is so simple? Most of us have no clue on how to even *think* Islamically, and who is to blame when the whole Islamic world is full of secular institutions and almost all the intelligent folks are running towards secular knowledge? Is it a coincidence that Islamic institutions/schools were the first to go down the drain, when the colonialists attacked? Is it a coincidence that the first thing the occupiers are doing in Iraq is "reviewing" the curriculum? There is power in knowledge/education and with real Shuyukh dying we are left with the blind leading the blind in a maze of incoherent rhetoric and stupidity. Even if the Imam is writing from a Quran/Sunnah perspective, where is the Hikma in that? Why that particular title, in that particular setting? Are there no other issues in the society that he can deal with except that? Where is the Wisdom and diplomacy of the Rasul [saw]? And can we begin to understand that good people might be turned away, because of the sheer lack of commonsense that is applied by our leaders? Am i just going crazy, or is this world not making sense? sigh...I just pray for Hidaya man..things are getting scarier by the minute. [wlm] |
| Re: Wife-beating in Islam? |
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| stranger |
| 02/10/04 at 15:38:02 |
| Salam alaikum noor al layl. The title of the book was "Women in Islam" I believe. I don't know what's wrong with this title. Perhaps when you say Islamic reform, you mean Muslim reform. And by this, I hope you mean that we should become closer to the Quran and the Sunnah. As for there being more important things to discuss than this issue, I don't think we should censor this topic. The world was festering with "madness and corruption" as you say even in the times of the prophet peace be upon him. Isha allah, it is the message of Islam which would drown this out. Your brother in islam 'abd allah ibn 'abd allah |
| Re: A Question. |
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| gharib |
| 02/10/04 at 20:43:51 |
| [slm], Sister Nur_al_Layl, I think we should be very wary of anything we hear reported about "Muslims" in the world by a very "partisan" media. The Muslims are doing many good actions at many levels, but you can be sure you won’t hear of them (or worse hear of them badly distorted). They will always choose the most lunatic "Muslim" or extreme fringe they can find, to smear all the Muslim and Islam with, as you know. I do not know what this Imam's intention was by publishing this booklet, for all intent and purposes he might have been sincerely trying to "reduce" a bad habit he'd seen in his congregation or community to a more "tolerable" level in his view, I don't know. I would not be surprised if he was only expounding the opinion of one particular school of thought about that subject, rather than actually recommending it, who knows, we certainly won't know from reading the news reports about this. The irony is that he might have been jailed only for reporting what some scholars have said about this in the past. I am sure it's nothing more than another silly excuse to smear Islam, add more fuel to the big bonfire on which Muslims currently (and for a long time to come) are/will be burnt. The more "bad press" they can get "out there" the easier, extreme and unjust actions against Muslims can be justified to the masses. The process of "de-humanizing" is only just starting... (Well it's been around for a long time, but before, this was left to a few academics "orientalists" to do the job. Now mass media/hysteria is being used to drum up support) As far as your other point about Ijtihad, I agree with you, a lot of work is required here. It requires scholars who know about the deen as well as the contemporary issues facing Muslims in the "real" world. Scholars of this caliber have always been viewed as much too dangerous in the dictatorships/kingdoms of so called Muslim countries. The very few that emerged have always been persecuted, so the vast majority do not really get to benefits of their wisdom. (If you keep clipping the roses, you'll only be left with the thorns) [quote] Is it a coincidence that the first thing the occupiers are doing in Iraq is "reviewing" the curriculum? There is power in knowledge/education and with real Shuyukh dying we are left with the blind leading the blind in a maze of incoherent rhetoric and stupidity. [/quote] Indeed, sister, this is being done throughout the so called "Muslim" world, starting with Turkey at the beginning of last century, and across all the other countries nowadays. Since all of these countries are really dictatorships, people inside can hardly change anything (the "world" will pretend not to hear, when the persecution happens/has happened, as usual). For the Muslim "outside" these dictatorships, harassment, intimidation and embarrassment seem to be the preferred policy, hoping to divide, weaken, scare and dishearten the good people. [quote] And can we begin to understand that good people might be turned away, because of the sheer lack of commonsense that is applied by our leaders? [/quote] Reported "quotes" need proper investigation to understand the context in which they are being said, as well as checking "who is" reporting these quotes. I am not saying there are no crazy writtings out there by the millions of Imams in the world, but you bet only the weirdest most illogical ones will be branded about. We hardly have any leaders (or so very few), sister, Maybe it's a blessing in disguise, we are only slowly waking up and realizing the staggering extent of our weakness. In Sha'Allah, diagnosing one's "illness" is half of the treatment. We have to strive together, with the best Islamic Akhlak (Etiquette?) to pull ourselves slowly out of this, Bi Haooli Ellah (with God's help). Please forgive my ranting, if I have offended, it was not my intention. [wlm] |
| Re: A Question. |
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| Maliha |
| 02/11/04 at 06:36:32 |
| [slm] whoa! talk about breathing before getting carried away with me typing :( Sorry y'all...I guess too many factors are conspiring to make me feel the distinct frustration of being a Mozlem in this day and age. Gharib you are right, Jazaka Allahu Khayran..I should have given the Imam the benefit of the doubt..and for some stupid/crazy reason I actually thought the book title was "Wife beating in Islam" :o sigh...it shows how brainwashed *i* have become, in actually believing at face value whatever is told to me about them crazy Mozlems. May Allah forgive me:( [wlm] |
| Re: A Question. |
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| gharib |
| 02/11/04 at 11:11:10 |
| [slm], Please don't be too hard on yourself Sister, Jazaki Ellahu Khairan, for your many inspired contributions! I am sure all of us feel the pain and are frustrated with what we see and what we hear, and all of us blow a fuse sometimes :o. We all feel (are) responsible for our Ummah one way or another. May Allah forgive us all, he knows we are weak, impatient, and forgetful. InSha' Allah, he does not ask of us the impossible, only to "improve" ourselves in the straight path, remind each other and not be led astray by the whisperings of Shaytan. I found this khutba transcript about distress posted by sister se7en very timely, May Allah rewards her. http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=library;action=display;num=1076489808 [wlm] |
| Re: A Question. |
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| lucid9 |
| 02/11/04 at 11:13:09 |
| [slm] muslims do do bad stuff. you see it around you all the time...in their daily life. ..e.g. they don't pay zakat, ignore poor people, glorify wealth and status, backbite and gossip endlessly, treat women like dirt (even women do this), are mean and dispirited, etc. if us mozzys didn't do such stuff Allah let us get stepped on all the time. recall the verse: "allah doesn't change the position of a people until they change themselves" need anything else be said???!! that's why for example: (1) a muslim woman can sell her kids for 50 rupees (happened) (2) and the rich can defraud entire countries. is it any coincidence the the three most corrupt countries on the face of the earth (according to transparency international) are Bangladesh and Pakistan and Nigeria -- all enormous muslim countries?!!! i don't want to dwell on the negatives, so i'll quit here and not tell you my 1001 stories of muslims behaving badly... just remember: islam is totally cool, and muslims by and large are not...(including moi) -a backwards muslim |
| 02/11/04 at 11:13:54 |
| lucid9 |
| Re: A Question. |
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| sal |
| 02/12/04 at 15:33:11 |
| [slm] Dear brothers and sisters BEATING is meant not physically hitting the wife with hand or etc. this is HARAM ( prohibited ) in ISLAM beating is meant advicing hardly the woman or the kid when there is a need for that so we need to be careful before we blame any part of the QURAN or HADITH If we have understood the word or the AYAH .This is why it is not allowed to translate the QURAN like any book since it may make such confusion to the believers or reader [wlm] |
| 02/12/04 at 15:35:22 |
| sal |
| Re: A Question. |
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| stranger |
| 02/12/04 at 20:16:04 |
| [slm] [quote]BEATING is meant not physically hitting the wife with hand or etc. this is HARAM ( prohibited ) in ISLAM[/quote] 'Adi Ibn Haatim came to the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) and heard him (peace be upon him) recite the following aayah: "They took their rabbis and monks as Lord besides Allah" So he said: "Messenger of Allah! They never used to worship them. He (peace be upon him) said: "Verily, they have made Haraam (unlawful) what was halaal (lawful), and they made halaal (lawful) what was haraam (prohibited) and (the people) followed them - so that was their (the people) worship of them (the rabbis and monks). [At-Tirmidhee] [quote]If we have understood the word or the AYAH .This is why it is not allowed to translate the QURAN like any book since it may make such confusion to the believers or reader[/quote] Okay, on which translation or "understanding" have you based your opinion on then? And ironically, who has told you that we are not allowed to translate the Quran? What are those of us who have little understanding of Arabic supposed to do? Okay, I can learn it insha'allah but during this, I would be foolish to listen to people telling me what my faith is about and not even reading the scriptures. The message of Islam is so simple. This message is for those who "THINK". The first word of the Qur'an is IQRA' = "READ". Why are you choosing to keep yourself at the level of a donkey that carries the burden of books on his head with no understanding of them? [wlm] |
| Re: A Question. |
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| deenb4dunya |
| 02/12/04 at 22:48:44 |
| Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullaah [quote] Quote:If we have understood the word or the AYAH .This is why it is not allowed to translate the QURAN like any book since it may make such confusion to the believers or reader Okay, on which translation or "understanding" have you based your opinion on then? And ironically, who has told you that we are not allowed to translate the Quran? What are those of us who have little understanding of Arabic supposed to do? Okay, I can learn it insha'allah but during this, I would be foolish to listen to people telling me what my faith is about and not even reading the scriptures. The message of Islam is so simple. This message is for those who "THINK". The first word of the Qur'an is IQRA' = "READ". Why are you choosing to keep yourself at the level of a donkey that carries the burden of books on his head with no understanding of them? [/quote] I think what the brother means is that we cannot translate the Qur'aan itself, rather we have a translation of the *meanings* of the Qur'aan WAllaahu 'Alam. Wassalamu Alaikum, Mujahada :-) |
| Re: A Question. |
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| sal |
| 02/13/04 at 14:24:57 |
| [slm] Stranger I hope Mujahedas reply is satisfactory .That is exactly what i wanted to say. once again i repeat it is not allowed to translate it without very big concetration and care to what that word in arabic should mean in other language .even from arabic to arabic it can give different meaning thaN it really is and as you said [quote] What are those of us who have little understanding of Arabic supposed to do? [/quote] Good question And this is why I said they are to be given a big care so that what they are reading is correct translated . Do you accept any randomly translated ? [wlm] |
| Re: A Question. |
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| stranger |
| 02/13/04 at 14:51:26 |
| [slm] brother, Forgive me if I misunderstood your stance. I was under the impression of something else. As for translations, I prefer the most literal of translations, but often I read different ones just to get a feel for what some things mean. As for your statement earlier saying that it is "HARAAM" to physically beat, this is what I was concerned by. And if you read an-nisa, aya 34, I'm sure you would also disagree. Now, I know there is often a lot of background stuff that is quoted in reference to the severity, the reasons, etc. And of course, I'm not advocating it except so much as the Quran does. And a perfect application is Prophet Job's example peace be upon him IMO. Nonetheless, this deen is beautiful and perfect in all its aspects. So I hope people don't try to cover up what they percieve as blemishes because the blemish does not lie with the religion. My appologies once again, il al-liqaa, Your brother in Islam |
| Re: A Question. |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 02/13/04 at 15:06:42 |
| [slm] I just typed "daraba" into a phonetic Quran search engine and it kept bringing up verses that started in english " Allah set forth a parable" which translated the word daraba as "set forth". However in the Hans Wehr Arabic English dictionary most of the meanings of Daraba have some connotation of hitting, but it is too long of an entry to retype. The plain speech of the Quran is highly idomatic, that is words and phases have more than literal meaning but were in comon enough usage at the time taht no one ever thought of the literal meaning vs the idiomatic usage as a real problem, and I am sure that it isnt. Even native speakers of arabic get different understandings ofthe same passages of the Quran with each successive reading at different stages of their lives and at different levels of understanding. I think we need to remember that the Quran is more than words printed on pages but a miraculous and dynamic force in the lives of Muslims. I doubt that it was ever the intention that we should take to beating each other over the interpretation of one word or phrase. Salaam, ammendment: I just looked up 4:34 "adribuhunna" or You men hit(?)them women. however the word for whip, flog, lash is jalada as in ajliduhum or " you men beat them men" from surat an-nur:4 and jalada is the word used throughout the sura to mean the punnishemnt of those who more than only might think of committing adultery. |
| 02/13/04 at 15:59:21 |
| al-ajnabia |
| Re: A Question. |
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| sal |
| [slm] salam brother stranger I Think no need to apologize since we are discusing and the goal is to learn from each other . [wlm] |
| Re: A Question. |
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| stranger |
| 02/13/04 at 15:43:51 |
| [slm] Sister al-ajnabia, your last post touched me more than all your previous combined :) Maybe I'm not patient enough to try to understand them well or maybe this was simpler to understand. Insha'allah he will make your path easier and allah subhana wa ta'ala is with the patient. [slm] Your brother in islam |
| Re: A Question. |
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| se7en |
| 02/16/04 at 04:46:00 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah, I was listening to the gender relations series by Sh. Abdullah Adhami, and he pointed out something interesting -- this same word, 'dharaba' is used in the Qur'an in Surah Noor in the verse about hijab (in a different form).. it says that women should 'yadhribna' their veils over their chest, etc. so.. I think this gives some pretty interesting implications about what the word means.. I for one don't 'beat' my scarf on in the morning.. you can also read some comments by Jamal Badawi on this issue here: http://www.isna.net/dv/imamcorner/responses.asp wasalaamu alaykum |
| 02/16/04 at 04:47:56 |
| se7en |
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