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living in Purda(I don't have a problem with that)
tincanman
02/14/04 at 18:57:34
Sister Dinah's Experience





I am Dinah, and was born in Europe to a Christian family.



I am wearing hijab and jilbab since I took my shehadah a few years ago.



Later I got married to a husband who was born Muslim and whose family lives in the Emirates , Before I got pregnant a few months ago I started following the rules of purdah such as followed by the family of my husband.



I started to wear full proper hijaab, and not to go out unnecessarily and only when accompanied by Mahram , a few weeks later we moved together with my in-laws.



My mother in law and her daughters are all proper hijaabis , they believe the female voice is awrah and fully cover when there are non-mahram visitors.


My mother in law is a good Muslimah and of great help for me , their younger daughters are all in purdah since they were twelve.


For me it was difficult at the beginning but I am easing into it , it is an important step to more purity and modesty and also to provide my children with a proper Islamic environment.

It is good that also my father in law can assume the role of Mahram companion when I am leaving the house.


When my baby will be a girl I want her to grow up in Purdah.

________________________________________________________

Sister Noor's Experience




My name is Sister Noor and, at the request of my friend Sister Amina, I am writing this article as I have lived in purdah since the age of 17 when my formal school-based education ended.

I am now 22 and am engaged to be married to a young man who lives in Pakistan. For all of my life so far, I have lived with my parents in Scotland, my father having moved here from Pakistan as a young man.

I know that the word 'purdah' can mean various things. As far as I am concerned it is a matter of living strictly in accordance with the teaching of the most holy Quran, and the teachings of wise men over the centuries, along with the words found in Ahadith.

To me it is also a matter of keeping myself unsullied for my future husband. He is studying to become a cleric and, although he has placed no restrictions on my behavior or movement, I feel that I owe it to him to act in a way that is beyond criticism.

When I leave my room, I normally veil fully, covering up to the extent of wearing gloves and over-veils. I know this must seem strange but it is necessary as my father runs an counseling service for fellow Muslims from home. So there is a chance that I might come in contact with a non mahrem man when away from my room.

I do not leave the house unless it is strictly necessary, and then only when properly veiled. Whenever I do leave the house I am accompanied by my mother and also by either my father or brother. My family believes that young women's voices are awrah (even my mother rarely speaks to men except when ABSOLUTELY necessary), so I don't speak to people away from home, except for our (female) doctor.

In fact visiting the doctor is about the only real reason I have to leave the protection of my home and I am glad to say I am in very good health so these trips rarely occur. I have been questioned on line about the health problems of such a life. I have a exercise bike in my room and I 'go cycling' every day. As for lack of sunlight, my window faces south and I probably get more sun that most young women of my age. But, in case, I also take vitamin supplements.

In some ways better health than most people and, because I don't come in contact with many people, I have not had a cold or flu since I left school. I pray at home and do not go to the masjid but some sisters living near here do come to see me. I spent my time in prayer and study and help my mother round the house when she needs it. I do not watch TV because it seems only to show the works of Shaitan, but I listen to news broadcasts on the radio. I also write to friends in Pakistan so I never feel cut off.

I have been asked if I am ever lonely. I think I can say that I am not. I really do have masses to occupy my time and I am very blessed that I am able to study and read the most holy Quran in peace, not being distracted by people and outside appointments. Some time ago, at the suggestion of Sister Amina, I started doing a variety of secretarial work for a charity, so that there are times when I wished there were more hours in the day than there are.

Back in Pakistan many girls live as I do, so I don't feel that I am being treated differently from girls of my class there. It's true that few girls in Britain live in purdah but the opposite is true in Pakistan where my family comes from. I feel that I am extremely lucky to be able to live like this as it seems the correct way. It pleases my fiancé‚'s family and my own to know that I try my best to observe purdah all the time.

It also pleases me as it is how I think I should live at the very least until such time as I am married. I am new to the Net as this is my first computer. It was a present from my father who believes that it will do me good to 'meet' other sisters who believe the same things as I and my family does. It is a temptation to go 'surfing' but I allow myself only to visit decent Islamic sites and to meet proper sisters. I am very lucky that I was in ordinary correspondence with Sister Amina for some time before my computer arrived and so she has been able to guide me through what could be a minefield if I had tried to 'go on-line' by myself.

Since going on-line, I have written to many sisters and have made some wonderful friends. But I would like to stress that 'living in purdah' was all that I wanted before I got my computer, and I STILL believe that it is the right way for me to live. I am indeed blessed that I have parents and a family who are prepared to allow me to live like this, in a way that I certainly believe to be correct.

(taken from: islamic proper Hijaab http://hijabsahih.tripod.com/  )
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
veiled
02/14/04 at 23:54:03
Bravo Alaik!!!........for ppl like sister Dinah and sister Noor.
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
jannah
02/15/04 at 01:45:11
Very interesting.. but just to make sure everyone knows..

purdah as in "not going out, not speaking to people, etc" and all that is not a requirement in islam.. in fact it goes against the allowances made by the prophet [saw], the sahabah and sahabiyat and the examples of islamic history

as for the "voice being awrah" that is not a majority opinion.. and the evidence used for the minority opinion is very weak

"overveils and gloves" are not considered required by the majority opinion either

i think it's nice that these people came to islam and all.. but setting them up as the "proper examples of hijab" is not a good idea

islam is expansive.. it allows for women to go out, to TALK, to speak, to teach, to work, to go to the mosques.. etc...don't narrow it

if some people choose to do things, that's fine, but don't try to make it part of islam and the only "proper" way at that.
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
Lil_Sista
02/15/04 at 08:43:14
[slm]

indeed interesting!  ;) everyone has their own choices,right?
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
al-ajnabia
02/15/04 at 11:35:31
[slm]
Purdah has never been a viable option to me, yet whenever I have given it serious thought I can imagine it suiting me,yet I sometimes wonder, well, I might need a big family or I might feel like I was hiding in a hole.  
It seems like the ideal to me to keep my thoughts on religion and family, in a way, I do that already.  But I've thought of certian things.
If my face was covered all the time I wouldnt ever have to supress my expressions which is something I find myself doing all the time.
If I never dealt with men who were not mahrams, I could always be open with men and not have to restain my natural responses to people all the time like I do now.
Sometimes though, I could see how the way I construct thoughts might be considered awrah in some contexts.
I can imagine being a big wide open me under all that cover, but still I have wide roots and specialized needs, it would need to be a big family witha lot of business thats for sure.
Just my thoughts,
Salaam,
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
lucid9
02/15/04 at 13:07:49
[slm]

this is a bit long winded...

Lots of things are fine for a lot, sometimes even the majority of people.  But it causes total misery to a sizable minority.  Lots of boozers claim that they have no problem with alcohol, that they can control themselves.  Lots say that pot doesn't affect them, and that it eases their lives.  Their are lots of girls who say that an evening dancing doesn't get them all excited, but only makes them happy in a most innocent way.  However, for every dozen drinkers there are a few end-of-the-road alchoholics, and for every dozen heroin/coke/pot users there are a few a few hopeless addicts, and for every dozen clubbers, there are a few hopeless sex addicts.  

It works the same for other other things.  There are many women who enjoy total hijab, find it conveinent, etc.  But for many women -- it causes absolute total misery.  One cannot make rules about something without considering how it will affect everybody.  Not everybody can sit around at home all day.  Lots of folks simply cannot sit still, lots of folks are incredibly social, and lots of folks become totally depressed even sitting all day at home even if they have a gem of a hubby.  

Ever look up the female suicide figures for Bangladesh and Pakistan.  It is absolutely shocking.  It is many, many times the male rate, and many, many times the rate for women in the west.  Why?  Gee, i wonder?  

The real point about total purdah, is not that it is really oppressive -- its that men abuse it to CONTROL women.  To keep them under the thumb, to make them do whatever they want them to do.  It makes women so weak that they cannot fight for their rights, and cannot even speak up about any injustice towards them.  Imagine trying to do that in an environment in which womens' voices are considered awrah!!

Let me tell you about some of the stuff that goes on "back home" in the land of the male authoritarianism where men do not appreciate the niceities and subtlties of purdah and being nice to the "weaker sex"

(1) I gave a lady money to buy land a few years ago.  Her husband then murdered her cuz he wanted her wealth.

(2) Women have been known to sell their children for even 50 rupees to buy food.  
Where is the husband?

(3) Almost all the female domestic help in my mom's and granny's household has  gotten married and then been dumped by their husbands.  Why?  Money.  They get sick of their wife, and decide to marry again cuz it brings them another dowry.
Many refuse to even register their marriages officially because it makes it harder to leave their wives.  This happened so many times in our household.

(4) Men beat women.  The furious women in turn beat their servants.  The servants then beat other servants and their children.  Who benefits?  This is such a true example of violence breeding violence.

(5) Jealous husbands, who have about as much control over their nafs as a driver  of a speeding car without brakes, insist their wives cannot virtually go anywhere.  My uncle across the road recently got married.  He didn't let his wife out of the bedroom and kitchen.  Can you imagine??  Now he has a new wife...

(6) Husbands cheat.  The dads of my sis's high school best friends' have this amazing ability to keep their trousers up.  Amazing! And in a muslim country!
Admitted -- these are dads not representative of the population because they send their kids to the American Int School, but nevertheless...

(7) My mom who works in this area could tell you a zillion more stories...


Finally, I am not trying to diss sisters who practice purdah.  They are great and may Allah bless them.  I am just dissing the brothers who want to impose it on others by force.  
   [slm]
02/15/04 at 13:12:11
lucid9
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
al-ajnabia
02/15/04 at 13:50:50
[slm]
Bro hyper, what you say makes a lot of sense.  I sort of have two ideas about purda, One not very well developed idea like I wrote and then the idea that you wrote. I dont always remember to write down all the things I think about on a subject. Like I forgot to say that I dont think a govenment should mandate purdah because the situations of individual women and families are just too varried.  
I sometimes like to imagine the perfectly islamic man in the perfectly islamic society, and Ive also always been both very stubborn and very idealistic.  I have often repeated this logic to myself: if a man is a degree more than a woman then I can develop my own deen to the furthest extent of my ability and somewhere there will be a man who has gone one step further, but then it is followed by the subthought, that would indeed be impressive, but I'd settle for an equal.
Not everyones fantasy of marital bliss is constant arm-wresting matches though. And even some who think that dont really mean it.
I've never allowd myself to internalize ideas that the thoughts and input of women is expendable.  I'm one who has been consulted by some, though not all in my life, about some really major descisions since I was little, and even when my opinion or adivice wasnt followed it has been respected by some in my life though not all.
it is absolutely true that there are many who use purdah to totally strip a woman of any status power say waht have you, and this is such a deep harm it almost warrants banning the practice, yet there is still the ideal in the hearts and minds of some who see that some purdahed women can be powerfull in their families and families businesses or within their own tribes. These women though are rare no matter what living situation we are talking about.
The world is kind of funky and stuff is always crawling under the tent walls.  this is life.  When people artificially and severly work to stop every little influence they shut out blessings too, and chances are they are more worried abouthings getting out than things getting in. Things they may be asked about or skipped over for on the last day.
well, those are some of my thoughts,
Salaam,
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
bismilla
02/16/04 at 02:43:05
[slm]

i just wanted to say that when i started observing Purdah (niqaab), it use to be sporadically and for very superficial reasons....like it makes a fantastic sunblock, especially when you are driving under the African sun.

Then i chose to use it when i had to drive myself to work for 2 months when hubby was on leave, i would take it out when i got to the car park.

All this time my hubby being quiet amused, but he's used to my eccentricities anyway lol.

Anyway, in December last year i thought, let me wear this while i walk around in town, like from the carpark to work and whenever i am not in the Office Building.  Also, it protects you if someone has to cough or sneeze whilst you walk by...gross i know!! eeuw.

And yesterday for the first time i wore it to a function which was held in a hall.  I now feel comfortable wearing it, even though i remove it when i am in the Office or when i am at immediate familes home.....time will tell, Insha Allah.

But through all of this, i was never once pressured by anyone to actually obeserve Purdah and i think that in itself makes a world of difference.  It has to feel right for YOU.  Don't observe purdah unlesss you are comfortable and you have some sort of reason for doing it that pertains/makes sense to you as an individual.

One day Insha Allah my intentions will be more sincere than superficial.  But for now this makes sense to me, blocking myself away from unwanted stuff...the burning sun...the sneeze...the pollution.

Purdah is not a Fardh, it is tradition that was observed in the Prophets household. Somewhere at the back of my mind i have grand illusions of emulating this household Insha Allah.  I know i am the speck of dirt trying and will never be the diamond it imagines and reads about, but that's what this life is all about...[u]trying very desperately[/u] to emulate the Propehet SAW's example, Insha Allah.
02/16/04 at 02:49:56
bismilla
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
jannah
02/16/04 at 03:31:39
bismilla, it's cool for you to do whatever you want or for any woman.. what we're trying to say that it's not cool to make this (purdah) part of islam or enforce it in a society as part of islamic culture. whatever the prophet [saw] asked us to do, we do. whatever he asked us not to do, we don't do. that's what islam is. islam is for all people, all times, all situations. for some women your lifestyle would be absolutely oppressive and detrimental, that is why it is not ordained to be fardh on every women. the prophet [saw] never asked it of all women for very wise reasons.

to be like the prophet...sometimes i wonder what that means to some people.. i get images of people moving to the desert, living like a bedouin, riding camels...i mean we just have to get beyond the culture of islam to see what it really is about and stop focusing on the outward cultural aspects to the point of making those things part of islam.
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
bismilla
02/16/04 at 03:46:35
 [slm] Sr Jannah.

I am not disagreeing with your point of view :)

Purdah is not Fardh, i agree, i was just using my warped sense of reasoning to explain my superficial intentions :)

Insha Allah, women must have the right to choose how they choose to live their lives, and Alhumdulillah "there is no compulsion in religion" and this should apply to all equally.

p.s.  there were many things and events that inspired me in this direction, and one of them was something you mentioned once in a post about you wearing nikaab whilst visiting relatives in India :-)
02/16/04 at 03:58:58
bismilla
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
jannah
02/16/04 at 05:10:34
[wlm]

jazakiAllah khair :) yeah the guys in the street in india are nasty... there... nikab is like self-preservation... i just think it's really sad that we have to do that there to avoid the stares and keep grubby hands off us and stuff... some people need to lower their gaze  >:(
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
Nomi
02/16/04 at 05:37:33
[slm] :)

I thought men were nastier in the west (anybody seen "Wild Wild West" the movie?)

Here is a website that i developed more than 3 years back but never really updated it. It talks about rape stats showing as to where men are nastier.

[center]
[url=http://www.norapes.i8.com][size=3][color=Blue]Rape Stats and Prevention[/color][/size][/url] [i]<=Click[/i]

Its just 4 short pages, next, next, next and finito.
Dont be amazed after clicking on the discussion link on the last page :)
Its been more than 3 years and i'm a different person now, so plz don hate me for that site!
[/center]

[quote author=bismilla link=board=sis;num=1076803751;start=0#9 date=02/16/04 at 03:46:35]  [slm] Sr Jannah.

p.s.  there were many things and events that inspired me in this direction, and one of them was something you mentioned once in a post about you wearing nikaab whilst visiting relatives in India :-)[/quote]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...  []
[slm]  ;-)
02/16/04 at 05:41:52
Nomi
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
jannah
02/16/04 at 17:43:39
Rape has it's own psycho-social causality and background and seriously I'd have issue with those statistics, because there's no doubt in my mind that the overwhelming majority of rapes in the Muslim world are never reported.

What I found nasty and which seems to be the norm in most Muslim majority countries is that the men have no balance when it comes to interacting with women. Either they are perverts that stare at you, make lewd remarks and even touch you in public. (There's a great story of a friend of mine in egypt who turned around and started kicking and yelling at some gross guy who pinched her u know what!) Or they avoid you like you have the plague or are a lesser species (in their minds i'm sure they think that's respect). They just can't seem to come to a place where they can interact and respect women for themselves. Hijab or Niqab sometimes helps to avoid the lewd but doesn't get rid of the problem. And in fact in certain places, if you wear Niqab you get the lewdness even worse! Sometimes I wonder why the other extreme (who avoid women) don't understand that one wisdom in hijab is so ppl can interact normally.

As for niqab versus hijab that's a banned topic.

But as for myself I only wore niqab in that one place as a thing to do..this latest time i went i didn't.. ie while in rome... like having an umbrella in seattle or wearing the cool malay outfit while in malaysia or having mace in nyc ;)
02/16/04 at 17:45:48
jannah
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
Nomi
02/16/04 at 18:01:21
[slm]

I didn't ask you for any explanations.

I wonder why you are putting so much effort in explaining this to us!!

But i must say...

[quote author=bismilla link=board=sis;num=1076803751;start=0#9 date=02/16/04 at 03:46:35]  [slm] Sr Jannah.

p.s.  there were many things and events that inspired me in this direction, and one of them was something you mentioned once in a post about you wearing nikaab whilst visiting relatives in India :-)[/quote]

hmmmmmmmmm []
[slm] [img]
http://www.jannah.org/board/images/male.gif
[/img]
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
jannah
02/16/04 at 19:10:35
It's not directed to you Asim.

The reason why I'm explaining it, is that I don't want to encourage anyone uknowingly to something I don't believe in.


[wlm]
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
ltcorpest2
02/16/04 at 19:25:56
I thought this topic was real interesting. The only thing I can add is for myself.  I went to an all boy school and grew up with 5 brothers and no sisters.  By the time I got to college I was a social dork.  I know the muslims attitude on dating, so I won't go heavy into that , but I was asked out i think 4 times by girls before I had a clue that a girl might have an interest in me.  In my humble opinion (and certainly not islamic so if me posting this is wrong then the admin can delete it) guys need some type of interaction with females somewhere.  It seems to me that there has to be a healthy balance somewhere of social interaction without straying into permiscuity.
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
Nomi
02/17/04 at 01:27:42
Mike, sometimes you sound soo cute  ;)

And i wanted to tell you that all my life i.e. from K.G (not kilogram) (prep) to my Masters i studied at co-edu schools. And i'm not for co-edu !! i just hadn't had an alternative after 3rd semester at uni, if there were one, i would have gone for it.

Co-education shouldn't be taken for granted by us Muslims, although we are bound to goto such institutes as there isn't any alternative, both in east and in west. But we should atleast keep in mind that there must be segregated classes for both genders. Reminds me of this research run in Australia that proved that single gender (segregated) classes affect students positively, does anyone know about that research?

As for you sis jannah (add a shy smiley here), i found some [s]serious[/s] contradictions within your statement. At one hand you say "do in rome as they do" on the other.

--jannah
[quote]
this latest time i went i didn't (cover my face)
[/quote]


May be you wanted to say that "When you are in rome "first time"..... "

Allahu Alim []
[slm] :)
~Anything but a dodo
02/17/04 at 01:40:20
Nomi
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
theOriginal
02/17/04 at 02:31:25
[slm]

sigh .... what about the bigger picture?

Don't Dinah and Noor have ambitions to save the world?  Is it wrong to think that they abide under a rock?  

Must I always cause controversy?

Wasalaam.
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
theOriginal
02/17/04 at 03:19:04
[slm]

Okay...unrelated post....

But brother nomi, your signature looks awfully familiar...it is like a very non-subtle inuendo, if that was ever possible.  I think I just fell off my chair laughing.  Thaaaaaaaaaaanks man...my walls were WHITE though...not BRICK.

Wasalaam.
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
xahira
02/18/04 at 07:30:23
[slm]

as a sister... who hasnt been wearing niqab for a very long time now... just 3 months... in the uk...
i absolutely adore it... [smile]
for one... separation of the sexes is important to me. it never happens, especially wen culture seems to be confused with religion. for me niqab helps me on this side... my family, is fairly liberal. the veil for them was "shock/horror"... but hey, such is life.... im ecstatically happy with it [laughs]
my first attraction to it... the prophets wives, and their example for us...
reading on hijab, it means "to veil"... it gives a man no choice but to lower his gaze... and once u start it, with intentions to emulate the sahabiyah...it will transform ur life...

ppl say hijab gives the muslim women respect... i didnt see hijab (the scarf~) giving any muslim women respect here... coz it has been bastardized by the youth who only cover their hair, but for them that is only hijab... revealing clothes, attitude, and a load of garabage...
wen i wore niqab i saw real respect. every1 i see gives me salaams, and men make way for me everywhere. i feel like a woman, and proud to be a muslim.

every1 has their view on things, i respect evry1s view on this topic.
my view is its a blessing for women that will also bring some hardship. this hardship is a source of blessing aswell i feel. u do this for Allah (swt) and its 1 of His many sources of blessings for u aswell. think of Rasul Allah (saw's) daughter Fatima (ra)
the amount of modesty of those women.... mashaAllah... his (saw)'s wives, the wives of the companions, best of women. how did they act? wat did they do? wat did they think of niqab?

just a little q, anyone have a reference to the hadith relating to wat hazrat ayesha (ra) did with her shawl when the revelation for hijab came?
does anyone knw wen the revelation of hijab came and wat eas the significance of hazrat zainab (ra) in this?  

take care my brothers and sisters

[wlm]
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
al-ajnabia
02/18/04 at 13:47:26
[slm]
Thi niqab is an enticing thought really.  This winter when it has been really cold I would pull my regular wool scarf over my face to keep warm, I felt really powerful and safe under it whithonly my eyes visible and then those under thick glasses. do niqabs get as stinky as winter scarves do after a while?
When I'm not in class I'm usually in my room.  Ihave to wear a jilbab and hijab just to go down to the shower.  It feels right to me, where as being out and about without a reason quit feeling right to me even before I began to cover.  But I dont like to get out of touch.  I watch tv and I still listen to music.  I use music to drown out the conversations of others that I dont want to hear. I'm not the only hijabi wandering around here in headphones. Though I may be the only jilbabi.
I listen to the music and pray for the things bing sung aoubt, the problems or the lifestyles.  Sometimes I see where I relate to somethings and I ask myslef about it.
Is being a niqabi living under a rock, I'm only a niqab and a pair of gloves short of that lifestyle, I think it is just in each persons expression or situation.
I think I would be able to open up a lot more if I didnt have to keep a public face, but I do, Allah knows best, He knows why the niqab isnt manditory.  
also I quit chatting with non mahram men a long time ago, but i still say what I need to say when I need to say it.  I think right now as much as I like niqab, not only do I need to leave my facr visible, but others still need to see my face
Only Allah knows if that makes sense.
Salaam, or the equivelant there of,
Re: living in Purda(I don't have a problem with th
Ayaatee
03/02/04 at 22:52:28
[slm]

Ibn Abbas (raa) used to say the Jammat is those who conform to the haqq - truth, even if you are by yourself. Anything that the prophet (saallallahu alayhee wa sallam) condoned, accepted, commanded, or gave his tacit approval of is a sunnah. The niqab fits that description and is clearly apart of Islam. There are too many valid proofs for and against it being mandatory, so Allah knows best if it is. Every action is judged by intentions and everyone will get what he or she intended. I think that is the most important aspect of the niqab/purdah. The intentions behind it. Mashallah, it's sad that it causes so much disunity between the Muslimaat.

But anyhoo, I've been in full niqab since I was 16 (I'm in my mid 20's now), Mashallah and I truly love my veil and I can bear witness that it has been extremely beneficial to my deen and character. I do wish more young sisters would look at the niqab from a different angle... as an act of ibadah, and as liberating. But Allah is the guide. Alhamdulilah, in the last 10 years I believe the western Muslimaat have been making great strides in embracing the niqab. Especially here in America. There's probably not a state on the east coast you could go to and not see munaqabah... Alhamdulilah. I think that's a wonderful thing. Muslim women are versatile.


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