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What does a brother look for in a sister?

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What does a brother look for in a sister?
Anonymous
02/16/04 at 03:47:37
salam
what does a brother look for in a sister? i know a sister that has been looking to get
married for a very long time. she has having a very difficult time. it seems all of the
brothers are very superficial. what is a bro really looking for?
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
jannah
02/21/04 at 07:32:31
wlm,

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

since no brothers had the courage...

let me mention to you on my (riwayat) chain of narration what one brother said to me a few years ago..

guys have this p-p quotient in the back of their minds... p-p stands for personality-prettyness.  (personality includes deen apparently)

so some bros have a 50%-50% quotient.. meaning they're looking for someone who is generally attractive and has a good personality. other guys have different p-p quotients.. like some guys care more for looks.. their quotient is 10%-90% meaning they just want someoneone extremely good looking and they don't really care about anything else.  other guys quotients are like 80%-20% -- they are looking for someone with alot of personality and deen (a very religious girl) and the looks thing is not as important.

now the even stranger thing he said is that this p-p quotient is in the back of their minds... but when they meet a girl they make a snap decision within the first few minutes! of whether she is a "likely" prospect or not. if she is, he continues to learn about the girl deciding whether or not she fits his p-p quotient...if too many negatives build up he then drops it...otherwise he continues.. and if she's discarded right off the bat, he's very unlikely to reconsider her again.

-- end of narration

crazy, huh? i was kind of shocked at how important attractiveness was to guys, since it seems to be always part of the quotient and also about the first impression-snap decision thing...i think we tend to do the opposite...ie...not consider someone right off the bat.. but when we do, we need more and more good positive things about a person to continue..

anywayz this might be a dhaeef* hadith in meaning, cause he could be crazy so.. ;)


*weak
02/21/04 at 07:39:52
jannah
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
Nomi
02/21/04 at 14:09:29
[slm]

I sure would like to read bro BOIs and bro Faisal Siddiqs take on this.

Only if they could visit Ikhwans folder more than Akhwats Cafe ::)

*shakes head*
[slm]
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
lucid9
02/21/04 at 15:15:06
[slm]

generally speaking: people like women like their mom and sisters...

but,....,you will find some interesting things: very good looking guys often don't care much about looks.  whereas guys who look like a dug-up rancid beetroot are real high on looks.  lots of clever guys don't care that much about intelligence...and just want a service wife...i.e. one who will take care of them. you could say these guys are really confident...and want someone to support them in their genius.  whereas guys who are more middle of road in terms of intelligence value personality a lot.  the guys at the bottom end of the intelligence scale tend to value looks and emotional appeal more than anything i think.  they are also very big on devotion and loyalty.

its often all very counter intuitive...which i suppose doesn't demystify things...and makes things only more confusing.  Basically, you can expect the following thing to happen 50% of the time.  If a guy has a lot of quality X, say intelligence, good looks, even sometimes personality,  he doesn't care if the girl he's supposed to get hitched to doesn't have very much of that quality. However, if he is lacking in a certain quality X, he often looks for women who are Xtraordinarily wealthy in quality X.  For example, every short guy wants to marry a Venus Williams.  And many drop dead ugly dudes want to marry drop dead gorgeous women.  (Very few do, because they accept the fact that the only way to make an impression on such women is too literally drop dead...and even if they do that...its a bit too late to get married :)...)

Now this is not a hard and fast rule.  But it is surprising how often it is true.  Note, this really applies mostly to deshi lads. Note, i am a pretty messed up fella, so my experiences may in no way be representative of the broader more well adjusted population...:)
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
siddiqui
02/22/04 at 08:51:00
[slm]
[quote]p-p quotient [/quote]  ???

I thought it was that she should know how to make biryani  :P :P :P :P


[wlm]


Ps  btw I can make awesome biryani myself   ;)
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
ltcorpest2
02/22/04 at 23:46:40
i was looking for someone to put up with me.  and i found her.  took some doing though.
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
jannah
02/23/04 at 00:29:55
[wlm]

I totally forgot to mention that the p-p quotient/snap decision theory only applies to ppl who have been brought up in the "west". For those who have been brought up in other places, they have their own criteria of what they're looking for based on their socio-cultural norms -- like cooking, cleaning, bringing up lots of kids, being loyal, from an established family, light-skinned, young, etc, etc.

@hyper i think ur basically saying 'opposites attract'? which i think is true in some cases.. but i also notice most studies say that the couples with successful marriages are the one's that are more similar to each other.. in how they grew up, socially, economically, intelligence, interests etc..

@siddiqui since u can make some great biryani u'd make a great wife ma'shallah :P

@mike poor woman ;) how did you convince her btw?
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
MIT
02/23/04 at 05:34:36
as-salaamu alaikum

jannah, this bro from whom you narrate is "thiqatun" haha.

What he said hits the nail right on the head. I don't know why it comes as such a shock - perhaps sisters don't know as much about men as they say so.

I've got a friend who i'm trying to 'help' get married, and i can very, very easily apply the p-p-quotient model to him.
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
lucid9
02/23/04 at 09:16:54
[quote author=jannah link=board=bro;num=1076921259;start=0#6 date=02/23/04 at 00:29:55]

I totally forgot to mention that the p-p quotient/snap decision theory only applies to ppl who have been brought up in the "west". For those who have been brought up in other places, they have their own criteria of what they're looking for based on their socio-cultural norms -- like cooking, cleaning, bringing up lots of kids, being loyal, from an established family, light-skinned, young, etc, etc.

[/quote]

actually the automated biryani maker and kitchen sink desirability test applies to most (i think) british muslim guys....and not only to FOBs.  People here, even the ones discoing every night are pretty conservative...that is except for the girls...because most of em are now marrying non muslims...because apparently they are nicer and don't want an automated biryani maker...

ok which brit will now do the honor of head butting butthead for this scandalous remark?? :)

Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
rkhan
02/23/04 at 10:21:43
[slm]

Sorry if I’m butting in where I’m clearly not required (my apologies akhi hyper)  this thread makes me want to ask : Is there something wrong with wanting a wife/wanting to be a wife who’s a good biryani (or beef stroganoff for non-desis) maker …among other wifely virtues?

Considering a lifetime of lunches and dinners …some (a LOT if you’re desi)  of which will be attended by friends and family…it makes sense to want/want to be someone who knows her way around in the kitchen

btw I realized this after a series of horribly humiliating experiences when I discovered first hand that you can serve neither pretty looks nor personality to guests who’ve come in hungry for dinner…. :-[


I
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
lucid9
02/23/04 at 14:14:00
[slm]

actually, after going to great pains to lose weight...atkins...forced starvation...run like a donkey on a treadmill...more forced starvation...more atkins...the last things guys like us want (but remember, i'm wierd) is a gourmet chef a la super automated biryani maker.  no better way to end up like a supersized human marshmallow.  

you know its funny, once you've gone to such hard work to lose weight...you really look down on people who heedlessly eat  to their hearts content...and you really look down at the fat folks...particularly at the guys with the large tummy who look like they've got a soccer ball hidden underneath their shirt, and the guys who if they fell on their stomach...you'd swear would bounce off the pavement like a ping pong ball...



02/23/04 at 14:15:39
lucid9
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
Nomi
02/23/04 at 14:36:16
[slm] wa rehmatullahi wa barakatuhu [s]shhh my bro is here, gotta act mad islamic here[/s]

My mother, shes the bestest biryani maker. My brother, he gets lotsa support in his dawah work out of her biryanis. These scholars around me, they say that you gotta invest mad time, mad akhlaaq and some money too in your dawah efforts. They say always keep something with you to offer others, even if its mad chocolates that make you mad fat, so much so that in a 'soccer match' (recall something?) people feel like kicking you  rather than the ball.

So as my mom is the bestestest biryani maker, hence her biryani is in demand among not only my brother's friends but mine too. Heck even my nana ji's (grand dad) friends too. But hey... we dont do that tooo often, just around once or twice a month on the average, honest ;-). But it alhamdulillah helps alot in dawah work, you invite ppl, serve some refreshments and tell them biryani will be just a few minutes and start talking about deen. Its Allah who makes it work, not us ofcourse.

So this biryani maker, my mom, also was able to raise three kids. Two of us, alhamdulillah proved to be good at studies, always in top 3 in our class alhamdulillah. Sent us to the most expensive and the schools with one of the best repute over here. Litle sisi went to a school more expensive than elder bro's even but she wasn't the best of students which aint the biryani maker lady's fault.

Elder bro just gave her a foot and head massage, shes the bestest and kindestest mom in the world and our real queen.

So plz, stop hating biryani makers :)
jazakmullah khayrun
[slm]
A biryani maker's backwards son.

ps: As for what does a bro look for in a sister: If she is mad religious, even the cavewoman type and would pull my ear to make me do more in deen ([s]how romantic[/s]) then ppl like me wont be much concerned about the looks. But if its gonna be a regular religious girl, like "3-5" prayers a day type and who'll need "me" to encourage her to do more in deen then erm... what? ... come on now, there should be some trade off ;D

pps: no offense

ppppsss: peace :)
02/23/04 at 15:09:09
Nomi
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
faisalsb
02/23/04 at 15:38:55
[slm]

[quote]I sure would like to read bro BOIs and bro Faisal Siddiqs take on this.

Only if they could visit Ikhwans folder more than Akhwats Cafe [/quote]


Well brother Nomi thanks for the compliments and I was surprised to realised what you said is quite correct. But let me asure you that there is no evil or bad intention behind visiting Akhwat's Cafe .........:) (Walla hu alam)

I think Sister Jannah's hypothysis is quite interesting but I don't think we can generalize it to each and every man regardless where ever he lives or which ever community he belongs to. I know a gentleman who is basically Pakistani most of the time lives in Japan occasionally visits North America to supervise his business. His first wife is Japanese and he married her to get Japan's nationality. His second wife is American who was previously his business manager and he married her with the assumption that she would work honestly and would be helpfull in his business. I also know a doctor whose second wife is much older and ugly compare to his existing wife but he married her because she was rich. I also know a person whose wife was a doctor, very pretty and she brought a lot of dowry with her but his husband divorced her because she refused to wear hijab.

So I think actually it depends on with what kind of values the gentleman is brought up. Admiring beauty is not sin instead it was one of the reason why Holy Prophet  [saw] loved Hazrat Aisha (RAU) the most. It's also mentioned in Quran while Allah prohibit Holy Prophet  [saw] from marrying more women that Holy Prophet  [saw] did admire beauty of his wives. So let us accept it's not any negative desire or wish but just depending on beauty of a woman or taking it as her quality is certainly different discussion. Since being ugly or being pretty is not human quality but it's quality of the creater.

One thing what I have observed through my experience and what I have found common within all men regardless either religious or non religious is that they expect their wives to be honest and sincere with them. And if they find such quality in their wives they do respect them from depth of their hearts although generally they are not known as good persons in society. So I'll say honesty and sincerity is the bottom line quality what any man would expect in his wife. There might be many other factors but that's a critical one.
02/23/04 at 15:48:21
faisalsb
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
salaampeaceshalom
02/23/04 at 16:18:47
[quote author=Faisal Siddique link=board=bro;num=1076921259;start=10#12 date=02/23/04 at 15:38:55] [slm]



...ugly compare to his existing wife...

... Since being ugly or being pretty is not human quality but it's quality of the creater.

[/quote]

 [slm]
 
 First of all, the above statement shouldn't ever be said about anyone:a) because it's not nice, b) it's a subjective opinion and somebody else may feel that a certain individual is attractive to them, and c) perhaps the most important of all, u are finding faults with the Creator, as He has Created someone in a certain way.  
So perhaps such opinions can be rephrased, to 'the husband found her to be less attractive than the first wife', 'or she wasn't exactly his type in looks'. :P Yeah, I know that also needs work but I hope u get my drift.

And bro, ur second statement also needs rephrasing, as it almost seems as if u are attributing ugly with the Creator.  We all know that Allaah is attributed with Beauty and all of His Attributes are of perfection.  I think what u were trying to say was what I've mentioned as point c)...?

I believe that jannah's p-p quotient may also be applied to women, but possibly to a lesser degree?  I don't know, I don't think I can speak on the behalf of all women.  Maybe we all need to relook at our priorities and see just how important religion is to us (Islaam), and if we truly do want to strive for Jannah and we're willing to have a companion to join us in such a journey, then maybe we need to allow the other person's religious qualities, outlooks, attitude, whatever, to be the biggest part of the qoutient, rather than looks, wealth, education/intelligence, family status/social status...and the list goes on :)

Anyways, I is off  :)

wa'salaam
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
jannah
02/23/04 at 18:05:05
wlm,

the question isn't about a wife's wanting, but about what guys look for... and since someone asked.. *I* think there is something wrong with 'good biryani maker' being a lithmus test for a good wife, but then again if being a society wife who spends her days cooking and entertaining is someone's ideal, no doubt it is a virtue for some people. i just wonder what guys would think if we made our lithmus test as equally trivial as their's :) anyway it does come down to values and priorities for compatability..

dude hyper why look down on people who are overweight? it's hecka hard to lose weight as u said.. i'd think u'd be sympathetic after all that...

btw it's not my hypothesis.. just what a guy told me in an unguarded, honest moment and haven't found much to disprove it yet..

as for the prophet (s) loving ayesha the most because she was the most beautiful ?? i'd be careful about attributing that reasoning to the prophet because he was ordered by Allah to marry Ayesha and some of his other wives were also known to be 'beautiful' to people of that time.. and there were other women that were beautiful that he did not marry.. and in fact when Ayesha first saw Safiya (another wife) for the first time, she exclaimed that she was 'as beautiful as a fairy'. Zaynab bint Jahsh (another wife) was also renowned for her beauty... so i can't see "it was one of the reason why Holy Prophet loved Hazrat Aisha (RAU) the most. " as being true no offense... all things being equal; 'beauty' in this case (and even others having more).. there must have been some other qualities which caused the prophet (saw) to love Ayesha the most at the time...

When I think of love between a successful husband and wife i think of what the prophet (saw) said about Khadija his first wife of 25 years who was btw 15 years older than him...when Ayesha on one occassion out of natural jealousy called her an "old woman" and said "hasn't God given you better wives than her"...

The remark deeply offended the Prophet and after being silent for awhile, he replied:

"Allah did not give me a better one than her. She was the mother of my children and the light of my house. She believed in me when others denied me. She supported me when I had no one to support me. She was the first one to accept Islam when everyone else was an idolater. And God blessed me with children through only her..." (Recorded by Ibn Hanbal in his Musnad, Bukhari in his Sahih, ibn Maja in his Sunan ,Ibn Kathir in his al-Kamel fit- Tarikh, to name a few of the principal sources).
02/23/04 at 18:26:04
jannah
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
superFOB
02/23/04 at 23:48:42
[slm]
So if I can make "some-icky-french-sounding-cuisine-here" I am cool, and if I can dish out biryani, somehow I become old-fashioned, anachronistic. Lemme tell ya all something, making biryani is nothing short of an art form. Very few can cook biryani from scratch, and a lesser number can prepare the traditional biryani (not the sindhi/bombay variant) the way it should be cooked. Muslims in the subcontinent, after a thousand years of power and privelege, can at least boast of their cuisine which is second to none. IMHO, cooking skills are a measure of a person's intelligence, especially in the absence of other indicators.


- diehard FOB


PS: I aint commenting on the marriage part yet.
PPS: and we dont use Vs for Ws
02/23/04 at 23:58:50
superFOB
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
timbuktu
02/24/04 at 01:00:22
[slm]

interesting

I think, prettiness is almost always the first thing people look for.

Then, unfortunately, they also want financial support. So, either they want money, or property, or a wife who earns money.

Sometimes, but only sometimes, they want an intellectual.

Then again, men are rather fond of eating, and eating tasty food at that. and some are fond of showing off to their friends how lucky they are, and in muslim society it is shown off as how meticulously clean the house is kept, and how well the wife cooks, and how well-behaved the children are. So the poor wife has to cook as well.

The shortest way to a man's heart is through his stomach. :)

very rarely do they want deen.

I am very lucky. My wife is a doctor. She works. She brought up our children because I am hopeless with very small children. I am only good for playing with some when they are over the age of throwing up. also good for eating chocolates and potato chips with them. also for teling stories. but that is about the end of my talents re the house and the family. and oh yes, i designed my own house, and got it constructed, something my wife isn't good at. So I guess we complement each other. She cooks well, because I am useless. Can't even make tea. She washes clothes. and she even buys my and the children's clothes.

In the West, people show off the beauty of their wives.
02/24/04 at 01:24:38
timbuktu
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
Nomi
02/24/04 at 01:01:40
slm,

(hm... hidden shortcuts?)*

[quote author=jannah link=board=bro;num=1076921259;start=10#14 date=02/23/04 at 18:05:05]
*I* think there is something wrong with 'good biryani maker' being a lithmus test for a good wife.
[/quote]

Respected sis no one in this thread is considering it a lithmus test else than you :) . btw is yours a blue or a red lithmus paper?

-GeekOB
[quote]
So if I can make "some-icky-french-sounding-cuisine-here" I am cool, and if I can dish out biryani, somehow I become old-fashioned, anachronistic.
[/quote]

heh that reminded me of this incident when i was having lunch with a friend. We were having "murgh chanay", he asked me do you know what we are eating?

Me: yes, "murgh chanay", why?
He: Doesn't it sound so backwards that we are eating MURGH chanay ::) ?
Me: haha
He: Okay, lets call it "Fried chicken with beans and onion/tomato/garlic saus"
Me: :D

I'll agree with him for a change...

[color=Black]c:\> ren biryani beef_stroganoff <Enter>[/color]

Anybody seen BOI?
wlm,

*(ppl, we are in a matrix!!)
02/24/04 at 03:13:20
Nomi
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
M.F.
02/24/04 at 15:37:35
[slm]
Ok I can't help it:
Reading all of the above, you think: it's a wonder guys ever get married, they're SO picky!!!!!
Then again, come to think of it:
guys ARE picky.  They're picky when they're 20 and pass up all the college sisters.  They're picky when they're 25 and pass up all the grad school girls.  They're picky at 28 when auties start suggesting women from the community. The p-p ratio's never exactly right... just a few points this way or that way, it's not perfect.
Then they hit 30 or 35, and subhan Allah, miraculously, they stop being picky!!
They'll even marry someone from "back home" who barely speaks the same language!
They'll even marry older women women!!
They'll even marry UNattractive women!!!  :o
They'll even marry UNeducated women!!!
The p-p ratio ceases to exist!! They still think about it sometimes, the college girls, the grad girls, the community girls, now in retrospect it seems that they just might have fit within the ratio, but ma sha Allah.  Now who cares about a ratio?  It's time to get married, that's all there is to it.
Wallahu a'lam...


Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
se7en
02/24/04 at 15:48:22

as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,

hmm.. guys no one here is offended by indian/pakistani cuisine :)  it is a matter of *defining someone* by their culinary ability, whether that is american food, desi food, or anything else!  there is more to a woman than her skills in the kitchen, wouldn't you say?

Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
faith
02/24/04 at 19:49:07
[slm]

In an authentic hadeeth, Rasulallah  [saw] said that a woman is chosen based on four things: family status, wealth, beauty and piety, and the man who chooses based on piety is successfull indeed.  

My question is:  does any brother here chooses a wife/potential wife based on piety alone?  I mean, at what age would a brother consider a woman for her piety?  when he's 50, after he's satisfied of the dunya and only then starts thinking about the akhira?  in time for a 2nd wife?

but really, most sisters here would only aspire to be 1st wives -not 2nd or 3rd or 4th (though any sister who wish to be no. 2,3,4 - my hat off to them).

Peace,
:-)
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
Nomi
02/25/04 at 00:52:51
[slm]

Did i tell you guys that i lost my father when i was 7 ( 17 years back ) and my mother didn't go for second marriage just for us kids. And she is the best at organizing things, even our transcripts of grade/class 1 are safe with her which she shows us once in a while telling us how much efforts she used to put in teaching us etc! And here i am not recalling the last time *i* gave her a foot or a head massage!!! what a shame....


Coming back to the topic... i'm with sisters in this one and want to tell sis faith that, respected sis i think sisters like you deserve the best of men out there. May Allah bless you abundantly, ameen.


[slm]
Asim Zafar.


ps: Yesterday i was invited at a dinner at my friend's. Guess what did he serve? ....... Biryani ;D ... along with Steam Roast, some cool salads and other continental dishes. Biryani was oh so tasty ;-)
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
Tesseract
02/25/04 at 01:46:39
Assalamu 'alaikum,

        [quote]In an authentic hadeeth, Rasulallah  [saw]  said that a woman is chosen based on four things: family status, wealth, beauty and piety, and the man who chooses based on piety is successfull indeed. [/quote]

          I haven't read the Arabic version of that hadeeth, but the English translation that I know of goes like this: A woman may be married for four reasons: for her property, her status, her beauty and her religion, so try to get one who is religious otherwise you wil be a loser.

         The point is, that there is difference between being "pious" and being "religious" (atleast to me there is, not sure about others). Piety is taqwa, which only Allah (swt) knows how pious a person is, but religious is a broad term and encompasses a lot of things. Anyways, I am still in the process of finding out what exactly did Prophet Muhammad (saw)  mean by "religious" if it really is "religious" in the Arabic text of that hadeeth. Gotta talk to some knowledgable people on that issue before I conclude something, InshaAllah.

   [quote]My question is:  does any brother here chooses a wife/potential wife based on piety alone?  I mean, at what age would a brother consider a woman for her piety?  when he's 50, after he's satisfied of the dunya and only then starts thinking about the akhira?  in time for a 2nd wife?[/quote]

         Sister, just because u never came across any brother who was/is looking for a sister based only on her being "religious", doesn't mean there isn't/aren't any brother/s looking for a sister based only on her being "religious".  :)Allahu Ta'ala A'lam.

Wassalamu 'alaikum.

ps: If any one knows the Arabic text of above posted hadeeth, please post it here. I have been looking for it since a while.


Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
faith
02/25/04 at 04:10:57
[slm]

brother BoI [quote]Sister, just because u never came across any brother who was/is looking for a sister based only on her being "religious", doesn't mean there isn't/aren't any brother/s looking for a sister based only on her being "religious".  Allahu Ta'ala A'lam.  [/quote]

but actually, my Q was to the Brothers in this board:
[quote]My question is:  does any brother here chooses a wife/potential wife based on piety alone?  I mean, at what age would a brother consider a woman for her piety? [/quote]

because it seems that the bro's on this board confess their preferences to any or all of the following:
1) beauty
2) culinary skills
3) intellect/secular education
4) income earning ability

unless, there is a bro who has confessed his preference for & prioritises piety/religiousness, then I truly apologise for having missed reading his post.

peace,
:-)
02/25/04 at 04:14:11
faith
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
timbuktu
02/25/04 at 07:14:53
[slm]
sister faith wrote:
[quote]My question is:  does any brother here chooses a wife/potential wife based on piety alone?  I mean, at what age would a brother consider a woman for her piety?[/quote]
 
[quote]because it seems that the bro's on this board confess their preferences to any or all of the following:
1) beauty
2) culinary skills
3) intellect/secular education
4) income earning ability

unless, there is a bro who has confessed his preference for & prioritises piety/religiousness, then I truly apologise for having missed reading his post[/quote]

i agree that this is the impression you get. If you read my piece in sis shahida's thread about p-p quotient which in her case is a D-D quotient :) you can discern something, and also from other bro's posts as well, that:

deen is assumed to be present

we should have said it explicitly.

let me elaborate. after my father's death, (i was 12) i gradually became an "abstaining muslim", by which i mean i abstained from what is forbidden, but neglected "fard" unless i was in the company of my family or my friends from FOSIS. Eventually it turned into getting to forbidden things as well, which worried me no end.

I had almost decided I would not marry, but when I did think of marriage, it was pretty clear in my mind that I will marry only a muslimah, and not just get a pretty girl and convert her to Islam and marry, which is what was happening around me, but a muslimah who believed with her heart in the kalima, and who would help me with the Ummah.

It is paradoxical, isn't it? I did not offer salaah. I could not fast. I had even started taking a gin-and-tonic before going to bed :( i told myself it was because otherwise i could not keep my asthma under control, and yet i was passionately attached to Islam and the Ummah, and prayed to Allah for the Ummah.

and Allah be praised: He alone created conditions for my recovery from my sin :)

so although i was rather sought after by the British girls: I was well-educated, had a good job with a multinational and prospects of rising to the top, knowledge and practice of the etiquette required for that, but i ignored them as potential wives (although two even confided in me that they had not been "touched" by men), and I wanted not just any muslimah, but a "power muslimah" as a wife. and there weren't any at my time in Britain. Since I wasn't much of a good example of a muslim, it wouldn't do to convert a girl to Islam. What sort of Islam would she convert to, I asked myself?

now why did I want a power muslimah? You see my father died when I was 12, and although Allah provides for us whatever we needed, and we did not want for any thing, I saw the struggle of my mother and brothers, and I wondered if i have a family and I die young, what will happen to the family?

so, basically the idea of a muslimah with deen was an "understood" one

It just so happened that when my father-in-law tried to find out about me, I was in UK, and I was "interviewed" by his friends. My talk turned to deen, and my knowledge and inclination of deen was judged to be good, so I passed that test :) my wife says I cheated. I say I did not :)

i have been lucky, and with both of us working (25 years for me), (20 for my wife), we have been able to ride out the shocks that come in the lives of the salaried class. Although we have been able to build a house only with the help of substantial loans from relatives.

Of course the provider is Allah (swt), and if He had wanted, all these arrangements could have come to nothing, and if you have read my life-story spread out in previous threads, you will see how Allah has looked after me.

I agree that we should be looking more into the deen side, but I think if we learn and enter professions with deen in our minds, and try to excel at our work, that is deen too, and perhaps what is required.

a sister wrote that her parents say it is your headache to find a husband. This is what happens that the parents do not find a suitable match in their circle. and what constitutes a suitable match is a husband who is at least as qualified as their daughter, and somewhat older. Now most such muslims are already "taken", and somehow our cultural makeup does not accept the wife as older than the husband.

I know for two of my sisters are "power muslimahs" who are well past their prime days when one would get married.

I don't believe in such taboos. I tried to get my son to marry a woman older to him by 06-10 years, but he had already committed himself. One of my nephews, settled in the US, married a muslimah from the US.

having a partner is a basic need, and muslims are exploring new avenues for networking, but the net is where people can hide their identity, and be totally different.

I now wish I had a dozen sons, and that I had brought them up not on Dr Spock Mark I, but on obeying their father, and then I would have ordered them to make marriage offers to these "power muslimahs" :) :) :)

Gosh, I think I reveal too much here, but I love you all for the sake of Allah

maybe a review of my thought processes helps you understand.

whoever has been blessed with a pious spouse is very lucky indeed.

may Allah (swt) give you all the best in both worlds

aameen
02/25/04 at 08:22:50
timbuktu
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
rkhan
02/25/04 at 10:38:12
[slm]
The hadith is: (After relating the chain of narration)
[I] An Abi Hurayrah RA 3anin Nabiyy SAW qaal:
Tunkahu al mar’atu li arba3: le maaleha, wa le hasabeha, wa jamaaleha, wa le deeneha f’azfar bedhaate deene taribat yadaak.”[/I]

Narrated Abu Hurayrah RA: The Prophet said, A woman is married for four (things), i.e. her wealth, her family status, her beauty and her religion. So you should take possession of (marry) the religious woman (otherwise ) you will be a loser.”
{Sahih Bukhari, Vol7 The Book of Nikah 5090}

3Amma baad, I just want to expound a bit…ppl without insomniac babies are warned to tune out since this might get a little long…ppl with insomnia can stay bcoz this post will probably put them to sleep   :)

Like bro timbuktu said, most ppl who look for unspecified “other ” qualities in prospective spouses do so only AFTER they assume or are assured that the deen is there.

I haven’t yet come across a  Muslim bro or sister who’d agree to marry someone who wasn’t keen on deen but *did* have other more superficial qualities that also featured  on their wish list… unless they weren’t practicing themselves, in which case the whole idea of taking the hadith as a criterion for choosing a spouse is pretty moot…

I think of a Muslim marriage as a sacred contract …a contract implies that both parties have something of value to offer the other -- which is why they are getting together for a mutually beneficial relationship.

Usually the husband offers to play the part of the provider and the wife agrees to be the nurturer. Naturally deen is an integral part of how well or how badly they play their parts …and that is what determines the success/failure of that contract…

The Qur’an says that Allaah swt has placed mercy/sympathy in the hearts of spouses and made them lawful for for each other ….and there can be no better quality to help a Muslim man/woman fulfill their role as a husband/wife.  

I find it naïve to dismiss trivial concerns in marriage with a don’t-want-someone-who-sweats-the-small-stuff . Marriage, like life, is as much about trivialities as big issues.
As anyone who’s married will attest, chances are a married couple is much more likely to argue over whose turn it is  to throw the garbage than aqeedah at 7: 30 on a weekday morning…which is where the mercy comes in.
If a spouse has the deen – the knowledge and the practice of it – they’d get around the trivialities instead of letting them become stumbling blocks and go on to bigger things.

I find it interesting that the best of men and women  -- the early Muslims—didn’t experience any such dichotomy – they excelled at the deen and at the small things which make up the stuff of life.

Refer to Khadija RA carrying a bowl of food to The Prophet SAW and being greeted by Jibreel AS with a salaam and the promise of a palace in jannah where there’d be neither hard work nor toil. To Fatma RA getting blisters on her hands grinding grain and soiling her clothes sweeping her house. To Asma bint Abu Bakr carrying date stones on her head for miles and tending horses. To A’ishah RA washing the Prophet’s clothes, combing his hair, cooking his food -- even making garlands for the sacrificial animals he was taking with him. To Umm Sulaim cooking a meal for The Prophet to which he invited over 40 of his companions while digging the trench…To Nusaybah and Umm Amarah and Umm Hakim who fought alongside the Prophet and his companions, nursed the wounded, tended the sick while maintaining their households with dignity..

None of these women were sought after by their spouses because they were good at cooking/cleaning/having babies (although there’s  a hadith in which the Prophet SAW asks men to marry women who are [i] “wadood and walood” [/i] “loving and begetting offspring” ). Yet, they combined the deen and its practice with their roles as wives, sisters and mothers so deftly…it detracted nothing from their  deen and added immensely to their stature.

I find them truly inspiring ideals …difficult to live up to, no doubt, but definitely worth trying…
02/25/04 at 10:53:07
rkhan
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
faisalsb
02/25/04 at 14:57:21
[slm]

[quote]as for the prophet (s) loving ayesha the most because she was the most beautiful ?? i'd be careful about attributing that reasoning to the prophet because he was ordered by Allah to marry Ayesha and some of his other wives were also known to be 'beautiful' to people of that time.. and there were other women that were beautiful that he did not marry.. and in fact when Ayesha first saw Safiya (another wife) for the first time, she exclaimed that she was 'as beautiful as a fairy'. Zaynab bint Jahsh (another wife) was also renowned for her beauty... so i can't see "it was one of the reason why Holy Prophet loved Hazrat Aisha (RAU) the most. " as being true no offense... all things being equal; 'beauty' in this case (and even others having more).. there must have been some other qualities which caused the prophet (saw) to love Ayesha the most at the time...  [/quote]

Well I think I couldn't convey my point properly. I was not initiating any discussion like Beauty Vs Religion. Infact if there were any such discussion I would like to argue in favour of second one instead of first one. As sister Faith and brother BOI mentioned the hadith regarding the topic, I have no doubt that the first and the last thing what a good muslim should look for in her future wife is religion.

The point what I was trying to make is that admiring beauty or choosing a pious pretty wife is not anything DISCOURAGED or BANNED in Islam. For instance a gentleman come across two proposals and find both the women good in religion but one is prettier than the other and he goes for the prettier one. That's some thing normal and I don't think the person should be condemned or labelled hypocrite or something else. And that's it what I am saying. Now if someone draw a conclusion that I am advocating beauty over religion or justifying those people who keep on waiting to get married because they want ALL the quality in thier wives and so on then I think I can't help him/her.

The verse of Quran what I referred is mentioned below:

033.052
YUSUFALI: It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): and Allah doth watch over all things.

PICKTHAL: It is not allowed thee to take (other) women henceforth, nor that thou shouldst change them for other wives even though their beauty pleased thee, save those whom thy right hand possesseth. And Allah is ever Watcher over all things.

SHAKIR: It is not allowed to you to take women afterwards, nor that you should change them for other wives, though their beauty be pleasing to you, except what your right hand possesses and Allah is Watchful over all things.

I think upper mentioned verse make it clear that Holy Prophet  [saw] was pleased with beauty of his wives or future wives. And yes I know when we are talking about Holy Prophet  [saw] we shouldn't think thousands of time but in fact millions of time and I wouldn't have said that if I didn't read that verse of Quran.

Apart from the Islamic point of view regarding the topic I think the original topic of the thread was ACTUAL criteria on the ground instead of the ideal one. So I'll say if we look around then we do see a lot of garbage. Well there are good people also that's why this world still exists. But I know many so called practicing muslims, who prays, do dawah work and all other kind of good deeds but when it comes to marriage they follow old ethnic, cultural and materialistic criteria instead of Islamic one. And unfortunately it's from both sides either they are men or women. We can PRETEND like anything but it doesn't change the reality on the ground.

Walla hu alam
02/25/04 at 15:05:57
faisalsb
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
readagain
02/25/04 at 19:41:27
[slm] ummmm okay i kinda have a question now...but im really scared to ask  :(..alright before that i wanna make a comment..just that, I seriously think there is nothing wrong if a brother wants to marry someone for their looks..cos..well its kinda ur right u know..u have to have ??? unf? unfa whats that word (attraction) ..and so if someone is choosing that than whats wrong with it? and looks dont have to be like drop dead gorgeous..alhamdulillah beauty is in ur eyes..so whoever u think is beautiful might not be the same for someone else and viceversa..(okay i kinda dont rem what i was trying to say here) ..ANYWAYs..okay so my qs was that how much of the culinary talents account for? i mean...well apparently my poor fiance is not gonna be happy :P cos i cook..just that it doesnt taste good  ??? I mean i shld be congratulated cos i can cook mann..not like anyone taught me!!!! khair..so..my cooking doenst taste good..but i cook... hmmmmm OH WELL!! his luck!! too bad. i tried!
[wlm]
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
faith
02/25/04 at 20:38:13
[slm]

dear brothers & sisters, 1st of all, my apologies for not making myself clear about this, and that I do not wish to offend anyone.   []

Fortunately, sister RKhan made her point clearer by saying that the early muslims did not have such a dichotomy over the points to look for in a wife - it was purely on the basis of a woman's deen and not her cooking skills, or anything else, similar to my point, verses the qualities that modern muslims are now looking for.  

Rkhan: [quote] None of these women were sought after by their spouses because they were good at cooking/cleaning/having babies (although there’s  a hadith in which the Prophet SAW asks men to marry women who are “wadood and walood” “loving and begetting offspring” ). Yet, they combined the deen and its practice with their roles as wives, sisters and mothers so deftly…it detracted nothing from their  deen and added immensely to their stature.  [/quote]

my earlier Q: [quote] My question is:  does any brother here chooses a wife/potential wife based on piety alone? [/quote]

hence, it seems that modern brothers now look for 1) deen 2)beauty 3) culinary skills +/or intellect +/or income earning ability.  

Referring to bro Faisal's point on the quran ch33:v52, which bro Faisal is justifying the permissibility of choosing Beauty - I totally agree that it is permissible, but maybe that he misunderstood the verse on our Prophet  [saw] by saying that:

Bro Faisal:[quote] think upper mentioned verse make it clear that Holy Prophet [saw] was pleased with beauty of his wives or future wives. And yes I know when we are talking about Holy Prophet   we shouldn't think thousands of time but in fact millions of time and I wouldn't have said that if I didn't read that verse of Quran. [/quote]

SubhanAllah, when I clicked on islamonline.net, 1 of the topic discussed was The Beautiful Wives of the Prophet - Commentary, where a sister posted a question on that particular verse.  In order for me not to break the Madinah rules on cutting & pasting the fatwa, etc, I will only include the relevant para, and the link to it for others who wish to read it in full.

http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=6670


Islamonline: [quote] Now coming to the important point in your question, why in the Qur'an would Allah Almighty mention to Prophet Muhammad to not *{take any more wives even if their beauty should please you}*? First of all, the whole verse should be read completely in order to understand its full meaning and the rationale behind it. Allah says what means:

*{It is not allowed to you to take women afterwards, nor that you should change them for other wives, though their beauty be pleasing to you.}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 52)

According to the prominent Qur’anic exegetes, this verse was revealed for certain purposes, part of which was to secure the rights of the Prophet’s wives, especially after they had renounced the material world and chosen Allah and His Messenger. So the normal reward for them was to remain his wives and to keep the privilege of being the Mothers of the Believers. So the verse was revealed, according to Ibn `Abbas and others, to make it clear that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) should never think of divorcing them nor exchange them with other women. This brings us to another reason for the revelation of the verse: to eradicate the habit of exchanging wives, which was prevalent among the Arabs of the pre-Islamic era.

You seem to lay much focus on the phrase *{even if their beauty should please you}* taking this to mean that beauty factor must have had a role to play in the Prophet’s plural marriages. No sister, the phrase does not imply such connotation. It’s just a way of emphasizing a rule. Just as in another surah Almighty Allah addresses all Muslims with what means:

*{Do not marry unbelieving women [idolaters], until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you.}* (Al-Baqarah 2: 221)

You see, it’s just an emphatically instructive message here, i.e., you should never think of doing such- and-such even if there is an alluring factor in it; you should resist this factor because the danger beneath doing that is much greater. Allah then mentions the danger: *{Unbelievers do [but] beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His grace to the Garden [of bliss] and forgiveness}*

Thus, as “beauty” is not deemed the factor that necessitates the prohibition in the latter, it’s illogical to be deemed the sine qua non for the prohibition in the former.
I hope this answers your question. And should you have any other inquiry, please don’t hesitate to contact us. Thanks and salam.  [/quote]

So brothers & sisters, take care.  Please, I dont wish to cause an argument, and ignore & forgive me, if I have infuriated anyone.

Peace,
:-)
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
Nomi
02/25/04 at 21:31:01
[slm]

Me again :)

But please take this goon seriously this time, for a change. Jazaks.

I dont agree with bro Faisal's takes on marriage etc most of the time but among the things that i do agree with is:

Uncle Faisal
[quote]
I think the original topic of the thread was ACTUAL criteria on the ground instead of the ideal one. So I'll say if we look around then we do see a lot of garbage. Well there are good people also that's why this world still exists. But I know many so called practicing muslims, who prays, do dawah work and all other kind of good deeds but when it comes to marriage they follow old ethnic, cultural and materialistic criteria instead of Islamic one. And unfortunately it's from both sides either they are men or women.
[/quote]

Its soo true. Not generalizing but anyone wanting to deny it should first have a look around him/herself to see the 'actual' ratio (emphasis is on ratio 2). May Allah forgive me for what i'm gonna say next... i.e. Dont these sisters have any unmarried shaykh in their area/city, province even? Or maybe someone who is assistant to some imam? Even if there is none then just suppose that there was one, would they have considered him provided the fact that they dont earn 'that' much and fathers/family of many religious sisters might also not like them marrying someone from that class?

Like the deen factor is obviously there in that brother... so, sisters?

--Uncle Khalid
[quote]
I now wish I had a dozen sons, and that I had brought them up not on Dr Spock Mark I, but on obeying their father, and then I would have ordered them to make marriage offers to these "power muslimahs"
[/quote]

Hypothetical scenario eh? Okay, how would you go about it then? You live in Pakistan right? So how would you or your sons go about it. Suppose you convince them to marry someone from Malaysia or South Africa, then what. Would the sister move to Pakistan or would your son move to the sister's country. Would you really let your sons move given the fact that they live here as not only first class citizens but also with some luxuries (maids etc) that many, not all, ppl in other countries can't even imagine of having.


Answers?
[slm]

desi = cheap eh? ;)

ps: And a wife who earns aint what i look for atleast, mine will be served fully by me inshaAllah. Like a queen :P [s] romantic again eh? [/s]


eh..
02/25/04 at 21:38:50
Nomi
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
timbuktu
02/25/04 at 23:30:12
[slm][quote author=Nomi link=board=bro;num=1076921259;start=20#29 date=02/25/04 at 21:31:01] Would the sister move to Pakistan or would your son move to the sister's country. Would you really let your sons move given the fact that they live here as not only first class citizens but also with some luxuries (maids etc) that many, not all, ppl in other countries can't even imagine of having.

Answers?[/quote]

I believe that the whole Universe is for us, not just one country. So, whereever the requirements of deen and dunya take my children, I will be happy and pray for them.

I prayed to Allah to deliver me of the problems which were taking me away from the deen, and Allah, in His infinite wisdom, arranged conditions whereby I found myself back in this country. This does not mean others would not be more "Islamic" than me abroad. There are many who are settled abroad and who are able to practice the deen much better than I do. It is the difference what Allah has given us.

regarding the maids etc. we do not have maids here at my house. We had a family living here and the girl did some jobs. Now I have a male servant, who is not of much help to my wife. She, poor thing has to work a lot. But yes, my son has grown accustomed to having his whims catered to, although he is now maturing.

You see, if we do not bring up children according to desi culture or Dr Spock or someone like that, but according to the Sunnah, the children would not need maids. and when they do need household help, they would be able to afford it.

[quote]ps: And a wife who earns aint what i look for atleast, mine will be served fully by me inshaAllah. Like a queen :P [s] romantic again eh? [/s]

eh..[/quote]

that is what most wives want, I can assure you, and that is also natural, but with the Satanic civilization's requirements of having a microwave, TV, VCR, dish or cable, PC's, cars, etc. and of course our eating habits we are becoming automatons devoted to earning and consuming

[quote]well apparently my poor fiance is not gonna be happy  cos i cook..just that it doesnt taste good   I mean i shld be congratulated cos i can cook mann..not like anyone taught me!!!! khair..so..my cooking doenst taste good..but i cook... hmmmmm OH WELL!! his luck!! too bad. i tried![/quote]

sister readagain, don't worry! wives (or should I say women) learn cooking with time. It is amazing, my wife did not know how to cook. She learnt the rudiments from my mother, then gradually some more. Now even after a hectic day at work, she is still to be found cooking or doing laundry.

I feel sorry for her now. Think I will tell her again that she needs a younger assistant, ie the house needs a junior wife

our standard joke at home :)
02/25/04 at 23:37:45
timbuktu
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
lala
02/26/04 at 10:34:49
[slm] guys,

Bro timbuktu you make some great points!

but people..youre forgetting something other than biryani..

WHERE ARE ALL THE ROTI makers!!!! Gosh..its not all about rice.

;D

Seriously, men and women each have their individual 'tastes'. Even the level of someones' religion is decided upon by 'preference' or what have you. Just like how some guys would rather have roti than rice and yes they are desi.  :P

peace and love
-lala ( i should change my name ..getting tired of lala)
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
siddiqui
02/27/04 at 22:28:54
[slm]
[quote]WHERE ARE ALL THE ROTI makers!!!! Gosh..its not all about rice.  

[/quote]


Who said brothers are'nt considerate  :P Rotis are too difficult to make

Gosh its been almost three years since I have had any 'real rotis'

But jokes apart in MY OPINION I think what a brother should have in him and as well  look in a  potential spouse is  willingness  both as  a couple and as an individual to grow, learn ,practice and support each other in their pursuits of Deen  , respect each other as  individuals  and remember  that religion has two components huqullah  {rights duties towards Allah swt ie is the ibadaaths , pursuit of Islamic knowledge… } + huqul ibaad{ rights and duties towards his creation i.e being nice courteous helpful etc towards his creation} . Inshallah Allah swt will put barakah, love, understanding, compassion and peace in the relationship

[wlm]


02/27/04 at 22:31:57
siddiqui
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
Nomi
02/29/04 at 15:27:47
[slm]

[quote author=Nomi link=board=bro;num=1076921259;start=20#29 date=02/25/04 at 21:31:01]
[color=Yellow]
May Allah forgive me for what i'm gonna say next... i.e. Dont these sisters have any unmarried shaykh in their area/city, province even? Or maybe someone who is assistant to some imam? Even if there is none then just suppose that there was one, would they have considered him provided the fact that they dont earn 'that' much and fathers/family of many religious sisters might also not like them marrying someone from that class?

Like the deen factor is obviously there in that brother... so, sisters?
[/color]
[/quote]

Surrender accepted from the sisters ("[i]Last of the Mohicans[/i]" style (anybody watched that movie?)  )

To the poster: Sister anon, as you can see that no one replied to my q?, now when you expect men to accept sisters for their deen and not looks, then why do not sisters accept men for their deen and not for their high paying jobs?


Answers ?
[slm]
02/29/04 at 15:30:07
Nomi
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
faith
02/29/04 at 21:17:27
[slm]

the answer to that would be yes, even if he were earning less than me.  Truly, only Allah knows whats in our hearts, so hence, some things are left unsaid.

the only condition i place & that is: not to evaluate me based on my income earning ability, nor to rely on my income.

peace,
:-)
02/29/04 at 21:19:10
faith
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
se7en
03/01/04 at 12:35:52

as salaamu alaykum,

bro nomi don't you think some sisters may perhaps be a little shy to express on a public message board that "yes, I have chosen to marry someone who makes less money than I naturally desire for the sake of Allah"?

that's kind of a personal question, so perhaps that is why some sisters are hesitant to answer it.

wasalaam
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
timbuktu
03/01/04 at 20:10:35
[slm]

Nomi, from what it is worth, here is my take on this again:

most women, even power muslimahs :), do NOT want to toil outside the home. Inside, they would be very happy to do evrything to cater to the family's needs and even whims. Even when they do work outside their homes, they hate to think their husband isn't able to provide for his family. It somehow looks to them as if society is looking down upon her because of this.

They do prefer that the husband is respected, earns enough for them to hold their heads high in society that he is not looked down upon.

They want their own little place, however small.

My father-in-law has a nephew who is slightly handicapped, but has a not too high-paying job. My father-in-law offered to loan him some money so he could buy a house, but his wife refused. She said: "I waould rather live in a small flat that my husband buys from his income, than a large house bought from other people's money".

mind you, she wasn't against a loan, she was against personal loans. I mean they was offered an interest-free loan from her husbad's uncle, whom she likes and respects, but she was prepared to get a flat even on interest-bearing house-building loan. As it is, her husband managed to get a flat through his own efforts.

and the fights i have had with my wife were because she wanted a quick return of her father's loans. By the way, when it got to be too much, I asked my mother to talk to my father-in-law, and he wrote to me that the loan was to be repaid at our convenience, it was not meant to create a hurdle in our marriage.

They would indeed prefer if their husband is earning more than them. They do NOT compete with their husbands, period.

and they do try to ease the burden.

It is normally men who start feeling inferior if they are not earning more than their spouses.

most Women, hijabi or not, made up or not, prefer that men do NOT look at them with lust.

[i]and I think the muslimahs on this board do not have the type of complexes Nomi is talking about. They want their husband to be better than them in deen, so they can get better themselves.[/i]

Nomi, you have posed an unfair question. It was not asked that men should seek an ugly-looking, old-aged, penniless, and ignorant woman. So, why should any one expect power-muslimahs to accept these "qualities" in a man just because he has a beard.

Of course, there are other factors in match-making. The most important is "adjustment". We are having this problem due to urbanization and education. But after all, a wife goes to a new family's and is expected to learn the new ways of ehr new house. Like immigration? what do you think?
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
Nomi
03/02/04 at 15:00:17
[i]March the 3rd, Eastern timezone[/i]

[slm]

--me
[quote]
when you expect men to accept sisters for their deen and not looks, then why do not sisters accept men for their deen and not for their high paying jobs?
[/quote]

That was my question which also had an implicit question in the quote above it i.e. marrying an imam or associate of an imam... that kinda class.


--original question of sis anon
[quote]
it seems [color=Red]all[/color] of the [color=Yellow]brothers are very superficial. [/color] what is a bro really looking for?  
[/quote]

--sis se7en
[quote]
bro nomi don't you think some sisters may perhaps be a little shy to express on a public message board that
[/quote]

If you believe that sisters should be more modest than brothers then they can always use the anonymous postings! Like such a question 'was' put to brothers on a public message board and they have given their honest answeres too...

why not then?

[quote]
Nomi, you have posed an unfair question. It was not asked that men should [color=Yellow]seek an ugly-looking, old-aged, penniless, and ignorant woman[/color]. So, why should any one expect power-muslimahs to accept these "qualities" in a man just because he has a [color=Yellow]beard[/color]
[/quote]

woah.. when did anyoe talked about beard in 'this' thread? :). Neither i said that women should accept a bum, my question is up there that speaks about marrying someone who earns a living by being assistant to a shaykh or is a common shaykh... and unlike subcontinent, ppl from such class do earn a litle more but not 'that' much, nor in asked them to marry someone who is below average i looks if power muslimah is bootiful.

Reason why i asked this question was that, us brothers were being labeled as 'superficial' by sis anon and other sisters said that brothers should give deen of a sister highest priority. I am simply asking these same questions from sisters.

Shoots..... i dont even know myself what am i writing.... but ~'i think'~ that makes both questions i.e. mine and sis anon's, unfair questions!

[slm]
03/02/04 at 15:06:50
Nomi
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
timbuktu
03/02/04 at 18:23:54
[slm] Nomi, there are shaykhs and then there are shaykhs

OK, I exaggerated :) sorry

I think if the shaykhs were real shaykhs, who understood and respected the rights of these power muslimahs, they would not mind, will even be happy. After I read your thread, I looked up some matrimonial adverts to find out the trends, and in many of these, the girls insist that they want a religious husband (with a beard and all that).

I think the akhira is indeed more important to many women than you think.

In Islamabad, I see young women with abayas and jilbabs and niqaabs and hijaabs, and in many houses the wife or the daughter has asked the breadwinner that the work he is doing is haraam, and they would be happy with much less, only it should be earned from halaal ways.



03/02/04 at 18:25:27
timbuktu
.Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
tahirah
03/05/04 at 01:12:14
as salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatu,

excellent points everyone.  br. timbuktu, your personal story is very touching.

[quote author=Nomi link=board=bro;num=1076921259;start=20#29 date=02/25/04 at 21:31:01][slm]
...
May Allah forgive me for what i'm gonna say next... i.e. Dont these sisters have any unmarried shaykh in their area/city, province even? Or maybe someone who is assistant to some imam? Even if there is none then just suppose that there was one, would they have considered him provided the fact that they dont earn 'that' much and fathers/family of many religious sisters might also not like them marrying someone from that class?

Like the deen factor is obviously there in that brother... so, sisters?
...
Answers?
[/quote]


...I actually think that too much money is a turn off, it takes you away from your reliance on Allah.  Ever since I heard a lecture about the poor entering Jannah years before the rich, I thought that having money was a bit of a curse.  I mean, where is the adventure when you have piles of money at your disposal...people just get superficial - the more you have, the more you want (not everyone, of course).  

One of my happiest memories was during one Ramadan when, for the first time, a sheikh from madinah came for the month to our community...i spent the month eating morsals of food (parathas in the morning with scrambled eggs, yummmmmmmm), then the rest of the day learning islam and preparing the masjid for iftar.  I wanted those days to last forever.....and if a not-so-wealthy sheikh (or sheikh in training) can bring those days back, then whooo-hooo!  :)

you just need money for books and tapes right?  and trips to those wonderful conferences and retreats ;)
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
Tesseract
03/05/04 at 02:48:31
Wa'alaikum Assalam wa rahmatullah,

         [quote]the only condition i place & that is: not to evaluate me based on my income earning ability, nor to rely on my income. [/quote]

          Sister, what do u mean by "nor to rely on my income"? Do u mean those kind of people who are capable of working, but still do not for whatever reason, and just want to live on wife's income? Or does that include a poor brother as well, who perhaps may not be educated, or maybe jobless, but his deen and character is ok?

Wassalam.
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
faith
03/05/04 at 06:30:48
[slm]

brother, what i mean is for that brother not to rely on my income: I don't wish [u] me[/u] to be the family breadwinner!

call me traditional, but its the man that earns the bread, not the wife - regardless of today's reverse role.

What's my basis for saying this? well, the qur'an states that the man's inheritance is double that of a woman.  There is a reason for it.  Its because its the man who has to financially support his family.   plus, in another verse, that man is the protector and maintainer of woman -

4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).


Its Allah's given rights to me, as a woman.  I dont intend to give up my right.  After all, Allah has given men their rights, 1) right to be obeyed by his wife 2) right to marry more than 1 woman 3) right to enjoy double inheritance of a woman.

I believe that Allah is most Just (al_Ad'l).  He would not give those rights to men without ensuring that women are protected and maintained (that they do not need to earn a living).  

But, in case that a man is poorer than me, I would still consider him for marriage (as long as the deen requirement passes) as I would accept a lower standard of living - fi sabi lillah.  

As for your question on level of education: he would have to be more knowledgeable than me in the fields of deen (based on the quran and authentic sunnah).  Secular education can be set aside if he knows so much on deen.  

I hope that answers your Qs.

peace,
:-)
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
Tesseract
03/06/04 at 02:14:16
[wlm]

       [quote]I hope that answers your Qs. [/quote]

       It does sister, Alhamdulillah. JazakiAllah khair. But now you have written something that raises some more questions in my mind  :).

       [quote]As for your question on level of education: he would have to be more knowledgeable than me in the fields of deen (based on the quran and authentic sunnah).  Secular education can be set aside if he knows so much on deen.[/quote]

      Ok, 2 things here:

1. U said, he would have to be more knowledgable than you in the fields of deen, and

2. Secular education can be set aside if he knows so much on deen.

    May I ask why he *has to be* more knowledgable than you in deen? Also, does our deen require brothers to be *more* knowledgable than the sisters before they propose? And how will you judge, whether he is more knowledgable than you or not?
    On issue of secular education, u said, it *can be* set aside if he knows so much on deen, which gives me the impression, that secular education is also a condition, BUT, it can be set aside if he knows so much on deen (and I hope I didn't misunderstand you there). Now, as far as I know, secular education is not  a requirement in our deen for marriage, so why put that condition?

Wassalam.
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
faith
03/07/04 at 06:11:22
[slm]

ok brother, it seems that my answers lead to more questions.  

Q: why does he have to be more knowledgable about deen?  
A: it relates to my earlier answer which I acknowledge God given rights to men: 1) for their wives to obey them.

hence, in order for me to obey him (i.e him having the final say), I have to be conforted in knowing that his decisions will be based in what is permissible & encouranged by Allah and His messenger  [saw], and not purely to satisfy his nafs (desires).  

however, I know that we live in the age of Fitaan (trials & tribulations), the age of jahiliyya, where too many muslims are ignorant of their own faith.  Hence, there are more people who are educated in secular fields than in the field of Islam.  So, maybe finding a shaykh to marry me would be like 1 in a billion  ;D (walllahu a'lam)

Q: how would I judge whether he has more knowledge or not?
well, one way is to question him based on the list of questions found on islamfortoday.com (Qs to ask prospective partners).  Its really like an interview, to ask someone that, but at least, its hardcore, real straight to the points about marriage and deen.
another way, is to ask my teacher (shaykh) to interview him.
thirdly, ask the community about his reputation.
lastly, but not least, put my trust in Allah.

salam.

:-)
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
BroHanif
03/08/04 at 13:41:10
Salaams,

I think most men look for the following:

Whether she's a virgin,
Whether shes a looker i.e slim, beautiful smile, sexy and with hot curves,
Whether shes under 25,
Whether she can understand him and his humour(and his mom)
Whether she can be his slave,
Whether she can satisfy his sexual urges,
Whether she can cook
and lastly whether she has deen.

I think the order I put in goes pretty much. And before somebody lambasts me, research proves that guys think of sex every 11 seconds. Now if the zikr of Allah is not on your tongue you look at something that is haraam...idle minds = nasty thoughts.

It's remarkable that I have some friends past 30 who still think like this, what happened to the ladies who have gone past 30, are slightly overweight and perhaps not a looker like Britney. It's a shame that some brothers have a fixed attitude to what they want and that is it no compromise. Feel sorry for the Muslimahs who are over 30.

Salaams,

Hanif
NS
03/08/04 at 13:45:25
BroHanif
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
al-ajnabia
03/08/04 at 14:51:53
[slm]
bro hanif, those brothers deserve what they get. as an over 30 non britney gaining a few pounds sister I think men without imagination are in for a dull life they will regret when they are older.  i think they are cursing themselves to a life of plain white bread (wonder) because they are clinging to the undeveloped tastes of childhood.
they need to open up the mind if they want a life with any flavor.
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
faith
03/09/04 at 04:56:06
[slm]

my dear brother hanif,

do not pity us sisters who are 30++ (i am reaching that age threshold soon, InshaAllah).  do not pity us, for we no longer have our youth and beauty to offer.  

have you ever thought that by marrying late, we are saved from the fitnah of our husbands marrying us in our youth for our beauty, only later to leave us for someone who could satisfy their loins, after having been loyal to them for 30 yrs, bear their children, be slave like?  

believe me, my mother encountered that trial, and i wish not to repeat her errors.  hence, i gotta make sure if Allah wills, the marriage is purely on deen, not + looks &/or something else.

peace,


Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
timbuktu
03/09/04 at 05:25:58
[quote author=faith link=board=bro;num=1076921259;start=40#46 date=03/09/04 at 04:56:06] ........... by marrying late, we are saved from the fitnah of our husbands marrying us in our youth for our beauty, only later to leave us for someone who could satisfy their loins, after having been loyal to them for 30 yrs, bear their children, be slave like[/quote]

hear, hear

It is indeed true that today many men are not taking their responsibilities seriously, and are abandoning their wives and children for younger ones. and many women who married young are left as divorcees with children and little education.

and beauty is in the eyes of the beholder :)

there was this Pakistani guy whose best friend died young in an accident in Nigeria. He married his friend's widow, who already had three children by the first husband. Two had come along by the time I met the family, and the woman wasn't by any means attractive, or young. However, the family was quite happy.

and that was nearly 30 years ago
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
Barr
03/12/04 at 19:30:53
Assalamu'alaikum,

[quote]For instance a gentleman come across two proposals and find both the women good in religion but one is prettier than the other and he goes for the prettier one. That's some thing normal and I don't think the person should be condemned or labelled hypocrite or something else.[/quote]

Deen, a beauty from the heart, will manifest beautiful actions that other eyes can see. Though much of it, is sometimes buried just between that person and Allah.

And actions that are deemed beautiful to others' eyes can sometimes just be a mirage of what truly lies in the heart.

I'm sorry, if I'm being a bit too philosophical. But deen is too intangible and complex for a person to judge that 2 different persons would have the same level of deen based on outward actions alone and hence, conveniently selected the more pretty one. I think its better to rest the decision with Allah through solah istikharah & du'a, then select the one whom his heart finds comfort in. And if it just so happens that she's the prettier one... so, be it - alhamdulillah. And if she is the less pretty one, then, tame his nafs and select her - alhamdulillah. There will be no loss when one does istikharah. Allah will choose the one who is best for him.  
Allahua'lam.

Forgive me if I read wrongly, but what I find blatant from this thread is that deen becomes another static quality which is “assumed” that the sister would have. This is different from having deen as the determining factor and the main and primary criteria for his choice - a pulling factor to choose someone - hence, the main message of the hadith.

However, I also feel that its natural for both men and women to choose someone whose level of deen and how she/ he translates practicing the deen is comfortable to the chooser - and hence, the compatibility. Its just that brothers would probably tend to find that out later in the taaruf (after he decides which "p" attracts him), and sisters slightly earlier.

Br Hanif, it does seem sad when soleh sisters are left on the shelf. But the real loser is the brother who chooses mirages on the shelf instead. May Allah protect us all.

Allahua'lam  :-)
03/12/04 at 19:34:58
Barr
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
timbuktu
03/12/04 at 20:06:14
[quote author=Barr link=board=bro;num=1076921259;start=40#48 date=03/12/04 at 19:30:53] Forgive me if I read wrongly, but what I find blatant from this thread is that deen becomes another static quality which is “assumed” that the sister would have. This is different from having deen as the determining factor and the main and primary criteria for his choice - a pulling factor to choose someone - hence, the main message of the hadith.[/quote]

:) very true. The Hadith says clearly that deen is to be preferred, but most of us have succumbed to this world's charms.

and in the end what matters is that one has needed only to put something in one's stomach, and clean clothes to cover oneself, and a roof over one's head that doesn't leak, a roof that may be rented or owned.

but this is a world of competition and false pride.

Sometimes people get lucky, like I did :)
or perhaps not. no one knows what will happen to him/ her.

I look at the waste that we have accumulated, and how much i have hated it, and yet, i have to recognize that what i regard as essential, others would consider as extravagant and hence trash.

I think about a hadith in which the prophet [saw] is reported to have been displeased when he saw a Sahabi's chajja (an extention of the roof) to protect the entrance to his house. The Sahabi dismantled it ...... eventually the prophet told us that the worst of the expenditure is in buildings.

I look at houses around me and some of my relatives' (and believe me, they are palaces), and I think what would happen when we go in front of the prophet [saw] to quench our thirst. Will he turn away from us, or will we get a drink? We ask for Firdawse a3alaa, but what do we do to deserve it?

There is a lot of wastage of our time, our resources, and a lot of collection of our junk, and a lot of unnecessary sin we fall into and take our children with us.

parents, friends and a spouse, who all help you increase your eemaan, taqwa and amal: that is what we all need.
03/12/04 at 21:52:05
timbuktu
Re: What does a brother look for in a sister?
al-ajnabia
03/12/04 at 21:28:45
[slm]
That deen thing isnt the given or the static thing thats for sure. We all here try our best that is obvious but even among us a high level of deen is a different thing for each one of us.  I worry most about the people who look at the external exhibitions of deen, especially those who have to seek among basic strangers. It's not the same thing when your whole extended family is hunting out a good fit for you and them.  Its different having to find someone no body really knows about because there is nobody anyone knows.
I worry about the people without huge families or other ties, I'm worrided about potential for homoginisation, I mean, young ladies especially who are coached t o cultivate a quality of having nothing wrong with them rather than unique qualities, as these may be acquired tastes and limit the field of possible suitors too severely.
We live in a time when so many of us have the resources of the minor royalty of the past, yet we dont truely dedicate orselves very often to cultivating nobility in ourselves and one of the major reasons for this is the fear of falling out of compatiblity with the rest of the human race.  If it werent for Gramps' constant coaching I would most likely be at least trying to do the same.
I'm not sure if may people can answer the question "what are you looking for in a spouse" because even if they can visualize the right answer, it may defy discription and people say very broad things like " he has a lot of deen" or "she has a lot of personality" even when they have a lot of very spacific criteria.  Some people even answere the question "I will know him when I see him, I hope" Or I might honestly give the answer "I'm looking for the one my family (the family that cares about me) doesnt deliberately drive off".  But if I were to confine myself to only one esential quality that he absolutley must have I would have to say that quality would be decisiveness and if I could qualify that It would be to say at least a good deal of the time. And if I counld qualify that again, I would hope that he has practiced that decisiveness a little and knows how to decide on what he wants which is a slightly more advanced quality than simple decisiveness.
Oh yea, and then there is that elusive quality that seems to be the real catch taht is the quality that I dont scare the hell out of him. Oh and I dont scare the hell out of him and hes not stupid.
Ugg is it any wonder I'm still single.


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