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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Making 70 Excuses |
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| amkamb |
| 02/29/04 at 09:26:03 |
| [slm], Can someone please tell me where I can find that hadith about making 60 excuses for a muslim? How many hadiths are there concerning covering the faults of muslims? In Islam we are commanded to enjoin good and forbid evil. Well, if someone is doing evil, then we are supposed to forbid it......with our hand if possible, if not with our tongue and if not by hating it in our heart. There is a hadith on this. When a person commits a grave sin, something which is expressly forbidden in Islam, are we supposed to consider that as a fault? Or are we supposed to look at it what is really is? Meaning : evil; and therefore forbid it? There is someone I know who recently said the Shahadah. But she still has pictures of Jesus Christ hanging on her wall. There are others who do not do their prayers. They will do it if they feel like it. Or when they are in the presence of others. Some sisters not too particular about wearing hijab. Many others not doing what is recommended in the Sunnah, but following the opinion of scholars and fatwas. Some participating in evil such as dealing with haraam products. In all these cases, are we to forbid the evil..........or are we to cover up "faults" and make excuses for them? Thank you. |
| NS |
| 03/01/04 at 18:50:23 |
| jannah |
| Re: Making 60 Excuses |
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| M.F. |
| 02/29/04 at 11:42:51 |
| Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah Covering up a person's sins and finding excuses for them is not the opposite of forbidding evil. I think the hadeeth says to find 70 excuses for your brother, and I think the wording is: Iltamis li akheeka 70 3uzran. However, I'm not sure if it's an actual hadeeth or just something people say. Covering up another person's sins to me means not telling other people about it. It doesn't prevent you from talking about it to them about it in a kind and gentle way which is the manner of the Prophets in making da3wa. I think finding excuses for people means not judging them by an action you see them doing (or not doing). For example, if you see someone not praying, you might say to yourself: well maybe it's that time of month, or maybe their clothes aren't clean right now etc, (70 excuses!!) But if you see them consistently not praying then you can talk to them about it. (I didn't really get the part about not following the sunnah but rather opinions of scholars and fatwas. Don't the scholars get their opinions and fatwas from the sunnah? How could they not if they're scholars?) |
| Re: Making 60 Excuses |
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| sal |
| 02/29/04 at 17:18:06 |
| [slm] There are no ecxuses for any mistakes but there are chances to be offered to correct or repent and this takes us back to the way of forbiding ? by hand or tongue or heart . We start with tongue by advising the person to and not to according to what is going on and according to as well his/her stage at the knowledge for Islam , only to specify the limit of chance to be given to this person . for instance, we cant be hard to new muslem to give advices in a form of order or ignorant muslem born . This is when we should use the tongue more than the other options and example no 2 for our own kids we use hand if they are doing wrong hand punishemnt can mean not only hiting but it can be and is most recommnded to be not hurting but hard lesson When we say by heart its if we see someone commiting a sin but we dont have the ability to say no . when we have no a direct contact or chance to reach to this person .in this case we may hate his work but there is no way to stop and ALLAH knows you would do some thing but you are excused For example a person with a gun if he steals a store infront of you or even a kid to his father if the father is cruel etc. wa ALLAH AL MUWAFAGH |
| Re: Making 60 Excuses |
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| timbuktu |
| 02/29/04 at 20:20:08 |
| [slm] sister i won't be able to give you exact verses or AHadeeth, but from what i have understood, i will write here. I have also read Indeed the Hadith/ saying you have quoted about forbidding evil. At the same time, the Quran asks us to say our say in a pleasant manner. The prophet [saw] has also asked us to present the deen in a way that is easy and practical. You see in our history, in Allah's shari3a, you will find a variety of approaches. This is because different persons react differently to diferent approaches. Some one may want to listen to you if you are soft and understanding. Others only listen if there is imminent danger. The Quran also sometimes talks of Hell and punishment and also of the Paradise. It contains verses that are gentle, and also those that are quite frightening. It is left to us to judge what type of approach to take. The best interpretation of the Quran is the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). So look for guidance in his way. The Meccans saw things very clearly in black and white. They knew what the kalima meant. They were either muslim or kafir, but even there, the prophet did not go around calling every non-believer, "O log of Hell-fire". His approach was gentle, and only when the resistance and the persecution was too much was he permitted to say some harsh words. The Mediniites were a different breed. There we see the emergence of Munafiqeen, but althought the prophet was told by Allah (swt) the identity of the munafiqeen, the prophet still allowed them to live and prosper in muslim society. About the sister who has the picture of Jesus on her wall. You said she follows you or some other sister, and you don't like it and have shaken her off, and yet, she does not accept your argument. I think you should seek advice about her from other american reverts, preferably from the same background. One has to consider what ethnic background she is from? what has been her environment and class upbringing? what has been her experience? what is the reason for her coming to Islam? what is her temperament? what does she think islam is, and from where she takes her knowledge of deen? as you said once, she is not interested in learning, but more in the social life of a gathering. All these things are useful in understanding where she is coming from. and only when you have understood her, you can use that approach which will make it clear to her that what she is doing is wrong. It is possible she is still in confusion about the status of Jesus (pbuh), or that pictures are forbidden anyway, pictures of prophets (pbut) even more so. The Taleban did many things right, but they tried to force it with canes and the like, and on occassions they apparently exceeded the limits. While it worked initially, the resentment against harshness showed. The Saudi and Iranian authorities rely on coercion, and this is not right. In fact, again throughout history, harsh measures have resulted in a reaction. So, that is the last resort. What you could do is to ask her about her concepts of God, Jesus and other prophets. Listen to what she has to say, then explain what is wrong. Give her books, or material on these topics, and ask her to speak in your group. as for others, our eemaan is not at a high level. and living with evil has increased our tolerance to it. You are right in your revulsion, but we cannot live in isolation. you are not to "cover up". You are to use hikmah. as head of my household, I can forbid certain things, but at work with colleagues, I cannot impose my ideass on others. I can talk to them, try to convince them gently. |
| 03/05/04 at 00:33:03 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Making 60 Excuses |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 02/29/04 at 22:08:41 |
| [slm] When I think about the need to make 70 excuses, I think about that I dont know every circumstance that a person is in. I use my knowledge of the world and human nature and the things that happen, limited to what I can comprehend, and I hand all this over to my imagination. There I go to work imagineing all the sets of circumstances that I can come up with that could even remotely make such actions as I am observing justifiable. And if the danger isnt direly pressing upon me, or even if it is, if I have no way of fixing the situation under my own present circumstances, I run through this process as many times as I possibley can. However, if there is danger or if I can do something about it, I act, and I try to act with the understanding that I need to stop an action and that I can never be sure of the cause of it, but sometimes it takes more energy than i have to prove to those observing me that I am indeed acting in this nature. Also, sometimes I ascertain that my anger or disgust will help the situation a lot more if other people could see it, but sometimes these actions get in the way of others' aparent ability to make 70 excuses for me. And sometimes I come up with 70 situations then look carefully and I see "nope, none of those things are going on here" and I come out of my corner swinging, and thats just how it is. |
| Re: Making 60 Excuses |
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| rkhan |
| 03/01/04 at 02:41:22 |
| [slm] Answered by Sidi Faraz Rabbani Q. On numerous occasions, it has been said that a person should give "70 excuses" for any (wrong) action done by a fellow Muslim. For example, if you see a person doing doing/incorrect then give them 70 excuses. First it was said that this originated from a hadith, then that it was mentioned by a sahaba (radi Allahu anha). Is this valid? If it was stated by a particular sahaba radi Allahu anha), then whom, and where? Walaikum assalam, This is from the words of Hamdun al-Qassar, one of the great early Muslims, as narrated by Imam Bayhaqi in his Shu`ab al-Iman [7.522]. He said (Allah have mercy on him), “If a friend among your friends errs, make seventy excuses for them. If your hearts are unable to do this, then know that the shortcoming is in your own selves…” [ibid] This is because the default assumption about all humans and their actions is that they are sound and free of error. This is considered our operating certainty. After this, if we find something that makes us doubt about them, we are not permitted to leave this operating certainty that they did not err for mere doubts or misgivings. Allah Most High commanded us: “O you who believe! Shun much doubt; for lo! some doubt is sinful.” [Qur’an, 49.12] The doubts and misgivings about others that are sinful are those that do not have a sound basis that would be sufficient to leave our operating assumption about others that they are upright and their actions free of error. And Allah knows best. Walaikum assalam, Faraz Rabbani. This info is from sunnipath.com. I hope that helps inshallah. |
| Re: Making 60 Excuses |
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| amkamb |
| 03/01/04 at 10:24:45 |
| [slm], Let me put this in another way. There is a Brother XYZ. His work is more important to him. And he does not do his prayers. Maybe he does his Dhuhr. But not his Fajr or Isha. There is a Sister abc who has a restaurant and they sell alcohol. There is a brother JKL who recently said the Shahadah and yet two days later he committed fornication. I do not want to talk about any specific individuals. When I spoke about the sister who had pictures of Jesus Christ on the wall, it was merely to give an example. I did not criticise her, nor did I condemn her. All I wanted to know was.....if people are doing these things..........are we not supposed to forbid it? Associating partners with Allah is the gravest of sins, and the only sin that Allah will not forgive. So if you see somebody who does this, and you know better, are you not supposed to do what you can to explain to the person the concept of tawhid and the consequences of associating partners with Allah? Or are we supposed to make excuses for the person? In the case of the sister who hung pictures of Jesus Christ........yes, I certainly did ask her a few questions. I wanted to understand her first before I said anything. I discovered that she believed Jesus was God. I asked her how she knew God looked like that. To which she said......"how do you know God doesn't look like that?". Oh well. I recited Surat al Ikhlas to her. I told her God tells us there is none like unto him. I also told her that angels do not enter the houses of people that have pictures or dogs. I am very kind to her, by the way. I am not asking HOW we are to forbid evil. I am asking if it is correct to make excuses for people who do these things. Once I talked about the situation to a certain sister. I was talking about the problem. Yet, the sister flatly refused to hear anything more from me. What other people did was not her concern. So if you see people doing evil around you......things that are really very serious, are we supposed to look in the other direction? Are we supposed to keep silent? Or at the very least, are we not supposed to hate the evil? Here is a verse from the Qur'an: "Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong; they are the ones to attain felicity." 3:103 |
| 03/01/04 at 10:31:06 |
| amkamb |
| Re: Making 60 Excuses |
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| se7en |
| 03/01/04 at 12:03:20 |
| as salaamu alaykum, I don't think these two things are necessarily contradictory. It's about having [i]husn adh-dhann[/i] for the person -- giving them the benefit of the doubt, and understanding that you do not know the whole situation, their level of practice or understanding, and therefore you are incapable of judging them fairly and should refrain from doing so. We should also refrain from being overly quizzical and suspicious about a person's behavior, and not try to seek out more information about someone in order to discover whether they are sinning or not. Keep in mind the hadeeth in which Rasulullah [saw] says that, from the perfection of a person's Islam is leaving alone that which does not concern him/her. If we happen to discover some of the transgressions a person has committed we should keep that to ourselves and not go about telling others about it. This is not a prohibition on advising a person, but about the manner in which you do so. [color=black] Do not hurt the feelings of Allah’s servants, do not embarrass them; do not seek to expose their faults. Whoever seeks to expose the faults of his Muslim brother, Allah will expose his faults and expose him, even if he hides in the innermost part of his home. [Ahmad] [/color] Subhan'Allah.. I think this hadeeth is a cause for a lot of reflection. All too often our attempts at 'encouraging good and forbidding evil' do ALL of the things this hadeeth prohibits, we hurt people's feelings, embarass and humiliate them, and seek to expose their faults. It is something to really think about. Also, I think before we jump to the conclusion that the action a person is committing is forbidden/wrong and that they need to be corrected by our hands, it is very important to consider: Is there a legitimate difference of opinion about the matter among scholars? Yes, we should follow the sunnah, but we rely on the ulama for interpretation and understanding of the sunnah through the ahadeeth. We will certainly fall into error if we think we can understand the hadeeth without any type of scholarly background in the language and the context of the text. And there are matters in which differences of opinion are legitimate. If we know that there is a difference of opinion on the matter, or if we are not sure, it is best to keep our mouths shut until we are further enlightened. It leads to a lot of fitna when people take it upon themselves to impose their understanding of Islam upon others, when Islam has within it flexibility in certain areas. Allahu a'lam wasalaamu alaykum. |
| 03/01/04 at 12:06:05 |
| se7en |
| Re: Making 60 Excuses |
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| amkamb |
| 03/01/04 at 14:51:59 |
| [quote author=se7en link=board=madrasa;num=1078064763;start=0#7 date=03/01/04 at 12:03:20]Also, I think before we jump to the conclusion that the action a person is committing is forbidden/wrong and that they need to be corrected by our hands, it is very important to consider: Is there a legitimate difference of opinion about the matter among scholars? [/quote] Is there a difference of opinion among scholars with regard to associating partners with Allah? Are there some scholars out there who think it is ok not to do our prayers? Are there any that say that alcohol is permissible? Are there any that find excuses for people who work with pork products? Are there any scholars who think that it is not our duty to enjoin good and forbid evil? Are there any who say it is fine if people hang pictures of God in their houses? Are there some scholars out there who say it is no big deal if a woman does not wear her hijab when she is in presence of other men? Any scholars who say that it is ok if men or women do not lower their gaze? Is there a difference of opinion among scholars with regard to gossipping and back-biting? Are there differing views among scholars with regard to associating with the disbelievers? Do some say it is alright to take them as your friends? Do scholars differ in their views about the basic message of Islam ....La ilaha il Allah, Muhammadar Rasul Allah? Are there some scholars who say you can believe in part of the book and not the whole? If you are a muslim, then there are some things you are clearly not supposed to do. You can't say the Shahadah, and yet hang pictures of Jesus on the wall. If you do, then you do not understand the meaning of La ilaha il Allah. When I was a new muslim, there were many things I did not know. I had a lot of things to learn. I made a lot of mistakes. But I learned a lot from my mistakes. Especially when well-meaning muslims corrected me. I may not have learned if these muslims did not tell me about it. For example, I used to indulge in something called back-biting. I had no idea that what I was doing was back-biting. Until one sister told me about it. She corrected me. She forbade this evil. Now that is what I call a good muslim. I learned so many things from this sister. She was so passionate about the deen and I felt I wanted to be like her. She was all about enjoining good and forbidding evil. Whenever I visited her, she would always have her book of hadiths. And she would share whatever she knew with me. I loved it. We human beings have our faults and weaknesses. I certainly have my faults. I am very short-tempered and do not have much patience. I may do some things in my anger which may hurt someone. Now this is a fault I greatly suffer from. Sure I would love it if someone would cover up this fault of mine. Some people are untidy. Careless. Thoughtless. Some are disorganized. Some have a problem with their attitudes. Some of us like to be by ourselves and are not too friendly. Well......these are all human faults. We should make excuses for them. But I do not think associating partners with Allah is a fault. I do not think fornicating is a fault. I do not think drinking alcohol is a fault. I do not think adultery is a fault. What excuses are you going to make for people who associate partners with Allah, or commit adultery, or incest, or drink alcohol? What excuses are you going to make for people who are inclined towards homo-sexuality? This is all evil and therefore we are to forbid it. Not make excuses. And forbidding evil is one the hardest things to do. And Allah knows best. |
| Re: Making 60 Excuses |
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| M.F. |
| 03/01/04 at 15:24:48 |
| [quote author=se7en link=board=madrasa;num=1078064763;start=0#7 date=03/01/04 at 12:03:20][color=black] Do not hurt the feelings of Allah’s servants, do not embarrass them; do not seek to expose their faults. Whoever seeks to expose the faults of his Muslim brother, Allah will expose his faults and expose him, even if he hides in the innermost part of his home. [Ahmad] [/color][/quote] Wow Subhaj Allah, I'd never heard this hadeeth before!! It's so beautiful ma sha Allah, I can just imagine Rasul Allah [saw] applying this himself with the people around him, you can see it in the way he spoke of people, even when someone specific would do something specific, he [saw] would talk about it in a very general way, starting out by saying: "what do you think of people who do....." or saying: "isn't... better than that one of you does this or that...." |
| 03/01/04 at 15:59:09 |
| M.F. |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| jannah |
| 03/01/04 at 19:36:29 |
| wlm, sr amina, thanx for bringing up the hadith, it is really something we need to remind ourselves of. as for your questions, sometimes these things are not as black and white as they seem. as u know a scholar takes into account all the conditions of a person and applies the law of islam on that so that the principles of islam supersede, like the harm not outweighing the benefit. like for example, let's say along with the questions you posted, you could say "Does any scholar say fasting is not mandatory?" obviously in a vacuum we would say no... so let's say you saw a friend of yours not fasting..now what would you do? go tell her that she is haram and should be fasting, tell everyone around you that you saw her not fasting, spread it among the muslim community that she needs to be a better muslim? and what if she has diabetes type 2 where you are allowed to not fast or even had her period that day? i mean it's just not black and white.. i can give you countless examples of 'well meaning muslims' who wanted to 'enjoin the good and forbid the evil' but their actions instead caused that person to move away and in some cases leave islam altogether. sometimes we are not weighing the consequences of our actions and i think it's sooo important to do so, so we are not causing more harm then benefit and then Allah will ask us about it. so in the end i think the balance between forbiding evil and covering a believer's sins comes into the realm of wise dawah. |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 03/01/04 at 20:15:17 |
| [slm] I read a story about some mongols who were drinking and a man asks a shaikh if he should go tell them to quit it and he said no because if they werent drinking they would be raping pillaging and plundering and if they just keep up like this they will all pass out and everyone will live through the night. There is a solid weight of greater harm factor in Islamic law when it is applied by a thinking and trained individual. It is always wrong to create a greater harm than the situation that is currently ongoing. Its like this, say people arent becoming muslim very much and this isnt good, but someone thinks to change that by changing Islam so people will want to come be muslims, that is creating an even greater wrong. This does even happen and the wrong is that real islam gets dispalced at least locally, and people who try to change the situation just end up coming off as wacos. Or someone is in a country they arent from and they have no family but their nuclear one and no connections except to open a store and if they dont sell beer and peperoni pizzas and sausage that store closes and their family is on the street, where there is no masjid for hundreds of miles few or no other muslims, and this is just the way it is for the first twenty or thirty years this person is in this other country. And they have no connections to have any business or livelyhood returning from whence they came. Then suddenly there are more muslims and this person who Im sure has thought of all these things gets lambasted from all directions from all these muslims who just suddenly sprung up all around, all of them fiqhees. yea, its clear, he is clearly selling bacon, and intends to keep doing it. Some guy who just moved here filled the small halal food niche market. and here is some person lecturing him about the evils of pork chops and the only thing it causes in his heart is the conviction that he is right now looking at a piece of dirt. So did lecturing him reduce the evil and increase the good? Only Allah taala knows. |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| timbuktu |
| 03/01/04 at 22:00:08 |
| [slm] i understand the questions better now, i think we can only forbid when we are in a position of authority, otherwise we can only advise. and as the prophet (saw) said: "this deen is naseeha". in a society where every citizen is equal before the law, how can you forbid? There is a way: if muslims get together to form a group, if they then elect someone as ameer or ameerah (now here is a difference of opinion, can a woman be an ameerah over a man)?, ie if they voluntary form an association where they agree to abide by Islam, then you can forbid. so forbidding by individuals is out in most cases these days, but i have heard in the US and elsewhere where this desire to lead life according to Islam has led to formation of such groups. In fact, we are enjoind to have an ameer when we are tarveling. One has to be a little wary though, because quite often such groups have cut themselves off from other muslims, and gradually become so alienated that very bizzarre distortions have taken place. There could be some such still very sane groups. Do you know that the Ismaili assassin in history were initially one such group? hikmah, and dua and care and love, is what we need more than forbidding, unless there is such a voluntary group which has decided to abide by the Quran and Sunnah. today, if I forbid anything to my son, he can walk out and only Allah (swt) knows what he will experiment with next. So, hikmah is what I will use. I found that my son had stopped praying. I asked him to do that. He replied "Papa, what is the hurry. I will pray when I get to be your age". I said: "beita (son), I like that. I would not ask you again to pray if you can tell me you have knowledge that you will reach my age". He did not say another word, but got up to do wudu and pray. hikmah, look for something and the time that will click. I will not make excuses for muslims who are not doing shirk, but I will try to understand them, and present the bsics so that they understand it is shirk, not just say: "It is shirk, take off that picture". That is forbidding, but am I in a position to forbid? I will not make excuses for those who are shirking their duties, but I will again try to see the why, and make my approach so that they understand the message. I do not think that this making 70 excuses (now that we know it is not a Hadith, but a saying of someone pious) is valid, but quoting the shari`ah ruling on everything these days can be counterproductive. Try to understand, and present things in a way your muslim brother or sister understands. When I married, my wife said her salaah regularly, except for fajr. She is slack in that. I, on the other hand, missed my salah quite often. In fact, you could say that I was only a Friday muslim. I did not fast in Ramadan (i had asthma, and my understanding in those days was that the use of inhaler invalidates fast. I must admit that I did not consult a shaikh. I looked down on Shaikhs, being a product of the "higher" western education). My wife could have gone and complained to her father that as a person who neglects salaah, i ahd become a non-muslim, and the nikah was no longer valid, and separation was in order unles I repent and start saying my salaah again. Today al-hamdolillah, I am able to say the salaah. I rarely delay it. Suppose she had done that, and our marriage had been dissolved. Would that have sent me thinking about why the marriage had been unworkable, or why I had been considerd a non-muslim by my wife? This was in early days of Ziaul Haq, when the top civil and military bureaucracies had started saying sallah even without wudu, and the maulvis had started being respected again. I doubt it would. In Saudia, they have a police for enforcement of the shari`ah, and the Talebaan also did. I think a strong disapproval from society sends a message. a strong disapproval from an individual may send a message, but in today's topsy-turvy atmosphere, the person is more likely to be driven away from Islam. Somehow people are getting the wrong impression that Islam is forcing of ibahah and harsh laws, and lack of care and love. So while no excuses are to be made for such lapses in the deen, we have to judge upon the type of action to take, and how to take it. |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 03/01/04 at 22:28:23 |
| [slm] If an amera was simply a good descision maker and it was aparent to those who were in direct association with her they could order those around them to do waht they told them and they could base their descisions on the ameras understaning when it was clear that she was understanding. Its a good way to raise a leader so she doesnt end up a spoiled tyrant, especially when she is not a head of state in the bordered state venues but simply a national resource. Odd to think in 2004 there might still be major advancements in monarchical rule. |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| amkamb |
| 03/02/04 at 11:09:26 |
| [quote author=jannah link=board=madrasa;num=1078064763;start=10#10 date=03/01/04 at 19:36:29].. i can give you countless examples of 'well meaning muslims' who wanted to 'enjoin the good and forbid the evil' but their actions instead caused that person to move away and in some cases leave islam altogether.[/quote] Whoever Allah guides none can misguide, and whoever Allah leaves astray none can guide. If a person leaves Islam altogether, it is a choice the person has made due to lack of understanding of Islam. I have come across muslims who are rather aggressive.......saying this is HARAAM! No gentleness in their speech at all. But why leave Islam because of these people? If people leave Islam because of this, then I'd say it is not Allah's will to guide that person. A person who judges the whole religion on the deeds of a few. Furthermore it takes humility for a person to accept the fact that they are wrong about something and correct themselves. People who refuse to be corrected, people who are too proud.........well, if they leave Islam, then it is their loss. Allah does not guide those who are proud. You can't make anybody obey. You can't make anybody do anything. It is not for us to guide. But we have to do what Allah has commanded us to do. If it is hard for us to forbid evil by our hand or our tongue, we are supposed to at least hate the evil in our heart. I think this is something all muslims can do. And Allah knows best what is in your heart. He is the best to judge. On the Day of Judgement, you are going to be questioned as to what you did when you saw evil. What will you say? It is not easy to forbid evil. It has to be done in a kind way, so as not to offend the person. It has to be done with understanding, mercy and compassion. I have talked to the sister about hanging pictures on the wall. But I have not hurt her feelings. I don't know why it is automatically assumed I have done something terrible.....been harsh to her or unkind? She still calls me. I still talk to her. And when other sisters complain to me about her lack of manners..........I do make excuses for her and encourage the sisters to overlook and forgive. I am not that bad. |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| timbuktu |
| 03/02/04 at 11:28:14 |
| [slm] sister amina you have given a very balanced account. wonder why I assumed that harshness was implicit. sorry for that misunderstanding. perhaps it is because in my character i take forbidding as with a cane and harsh looks. may Allah (swt) increase your understandimg, taqwa and amal, and bring more people to the right beliefs and practice aameen |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 03/02/04 at 11:28:39 |
| [slm] sometimes people get acused of "leaving Islam" or being among those who Allah leaves astray because they are holding to their own true understaniing of Islam and the guidace of allah that they are being guided by. There is no Khalifa, there is no temporal ulimate authority in Islam. Even in the few odd tight and well guided groups there is room for multiple views. Also there are hundereds of languages, thousands of dialects, countless idioms and nonone can be sure wheter they didnt explain things right or wheather they werent understood. Making seventy excuses may not be a hadith but it is still a good pracitce, looking both ways before crossing a busy street isnt a hadith but it is still a good practice. But still, thats right, those who wont be guided wont be guided and those who wont be strayed wont be strayed, but who's to judge who is who? |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| jannah |
| 03/02/04 at 14:51:53 |
| [slm] It is true that Allah guides, but that does not mean we are not responsible for our actions or that it is completely the other person's fault when we do something to turn them off from Islam. It is our fault as well and we are responsible in front of Allah for causing harm to other Muslims. Consider the fact that if you lead someone to something good, like teaching someone to pray or read Quran or bringing them to Islam -- you receive the same reward for any good they do. And consider that if you lead someone to something bad and evil because of your misguided actions, why wouldn't you be blamed? Why should a person take to anti-dawah that is obnoxious and aggressive as you say. It is not out of lack of understanding or lack of "humbleness" -- It is human nature to be offended if someone acts like that towards us, whether they think themselves to be doing sincere dawah or not. Consider the fact that the one's doing this 'dawah' are the one's that are proud, lack humbleness and lack understanding. It's all a balance here... each person is responsible for their own actions, and we are also responsible for the consequences of our actions. We can't just go out and do things without any wisdom or understanding. |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| amkamb |
| 03/02/04 at 18:43:13 |
| [quote author=jannah link=board=madrasa;num=1078064763;start=10#17 date=03/02/04 at 14:51:53] Consider the fact that the one's doing this 'dawah' are the one's that are proud, lack humbleness and lack understanding.[/quote] I am sorry sister, I cannot agree with you here. The sister who forbade evil......who even refused to listen to back-biting, the very one who corrected me....is one of the gentlest sisters I have ever met. She is one of the sweetest and takes care never to offend or hurt the feelings of others. I don't think she is proud, or lacks humbleness or understanding. Furthermore, you made the statement as though it is a fact (as per your words)...that the ones who do dawah are the ones who are proud. Did you open their hearts and look inside to see pride written there? If by doing this dawah, you consider me proud, please be informed that this will not stop me from doing what Allah has commanded me to do. Whether I am proud or not, Allah knows best. |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 03/02/04 at 19:38:54 |
| [slm] is there a such thing as internal back biting? LIke I mean the internal dialog that goes through a person's mind when they assume that people dont have a good reason to be doing what they are doing? Like you see a muslim who sells pork and so you assume his deen must be cracked or something rather than asuming there must be some explanation in his greater situation. Or like when two muslim sisters live on one floor of a dorm, one openly muslim, one secretly muslim, at the time neither cover. The openly muslim sister starts geting brutally harrassed durring the night hours and the secretly muslim sister refuses to tell her who is behind all this or why or to help her by helping her report these incidents and even refuses to even say hello to her any more. Even though the secret sister isnt talking to the open sister, could her refusal to help her be a result of an inner backbiting dialog such as maybe the secret sister thinks that she deserves this for some reason? While all this time the openly muslim sister is assuming that the secret muslim sister must have a good reason to keep her faith a secret and hasn't "outed" her. And like a year later these two sisters have the same class and the open sister now covers, and gets asked a lot of questions about islam, while the secret sister just has a secret salamlife, like virtually or something. And the open sister is starting to wonder what is going on and stuff, and wondering if this wondering is some sort of internal backbiting, which just keeps getting worse because she still wonders why this sister didnt help her out with that problem last year, and now she even wonders about that time she saw her sister speak behind her hand to one of the open sisters teachers and point to the open sister, and can no longer be certian that she didnt hear her say "I cant believe she can show her face here after [this] and [this] and [this]." I mean guess I dont know what back biting is I guess anymore. I listened to a Khutba that I downloaded about backbiting, but the imam made a distinction between backbiting and warning people about danger in a community or bearing witess when a brother or sister is being terribly wronged. Does it say any where that we cant make any even educated guesses about what is in the heart of another person ever? That we cant learn human nature from a cumulation of experinces with other humans? Is there such a thing as backbiting to a persons face? like when you assume you know they are doing wrong and you tell them how wrong they are? When a religeously educated person uses ijtihad they are rewarded, and if they use it and are right they get rewarded twice, but is that all there is to that saying? Does it ever go on to say what kind of reward uneducated presuption gets? I guess maybe backbiting is subject to majority opinion, not majoity of imam opinion, but like percapita majority on a local basis. oh well, se la gher (pardon my french) |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| amkamb |
| 03/03/04 at 22:53:19 |
| [quote author=timbuktu link=board=madrasa;num=1078064763;start=10#12 date=03/01/04 at 22:00:08] we can only forbid when we are in a position of authority, otherwise we can only advise. and as the prophet (saw) said: "this deen is naseeha". in a society where every citizen is equal before the law, how can you forbid? [/quote] Br. timbuktu, here are some hadiths which I think you will find most interesting: Hadith - Muslim On the authority of Abu Sa`id (radhiallahu `anhu) that the Prophet sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam said, "Whoever sees something evil should change it with his hand. If he cannot, then with his tongue; and if he cannot do even that, then in his heart. That is the weakest degree of faith." Hadith - Muslim He also relates on the authority of Ibn Mas`ud that the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) said, "There was not a single Prophet among those who were sent before me who did not have apostles and companions and followed his Sunna and obeyed his commands. But afterwards other generations came whose words belied their deeds, and whose deeds were not in accordance with what they commanded others to do. Whoever struggles against them with his hand is a believer. Whoever struggles against them with his tongue is a believer. And whoever struggles against them with his heart is a believer. But when none of these things are done, then not a single mustard's seed weight of faith is present." These hadiths make it pretty clear that forbidding evil is the duty of every muslim. It doesn't say that you have to have a position of authority. |
| 03/03/04 at 22:59:36 |
| amkamb |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| timbuktu |
| 03/04/04 at 00:35:31 |
| [slm] thanks sister amkamb for the AHadeeth i have always associated the word "forbid" with some sort of authority: moral or physical. I wonder if i am wrong in thinking that. You have already said that you forbid with gentleness. In my understanding, if we cannot forcibly stop a deed, then we are not "forbidding", but requesting. Take an example. Smoking is forbidden in many public places. If someone smokes in such a place, I can request him to stop smoking, informing him that it is forbidden here. If he persists, can I forcibly remove him from the premises? I don't think I can. For one thing, I do not look physically intimidating, for another, it may also be a crime to do that without some sort of authorisation. I can however, complain to the authorities, and they can send a bouncer or even a policeman to do the job. if I am right in thinking about that association, then this "forbidding" is understood to be with authority, and did not need a spelling out in the Hadith. What is the arabic word used here? and what meanings does that word convey. This is not challenging your point. We are trying to understand, so that we know how to do this duty, and whether this forbidding is to be done when the circumstances give me an authority to do so. If everyone set about correcting the others with force, there would be a total mess. |
| 03/04/04 at 03:21:52 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| amkamb |
| 03/04/04 at 09:48:01 |
| [quote author=timbuktu link=board=madrasa;num=1078064763;start=20#21 date=03/04/04 at 00:35:31] If everyone set about correcting the others with force, there would be a total mess.[/quote] Ah, Br. timbuktu, you have missed the whole point of the hadith. It says if you cannot correct it with your hand (meaning use of force), then by your tongue. And when you tell the person that smoking is forbidden, you are using your tongue to forbid the deed. The person may listen to you or may not listen to you. He may stop smoking or he may continue to smoke. That is something we cannot control. We cannot make anyone obey. But you have done your part. You spoke up. In some cases you cannot even use your tongue to forbid the evil. It is best to remain silent. But then, the hadith goes on to say.......forbid by hating the evil in your heart. You may not be able to use your hand, or your tongue. But you can certainly show your disapproval on your face, or feel hatred for the evil in your heart. Many times I am unable to do anything with regard to the evil I see around me. I cannot say anything to the individuals who transgress Allah's commandments. But I certainly hate their deeds in my heart. I certainly disapprove and show my disapproval. And if you hate the evil, if you disapprove of the evil, then you certainly are forbidding evil. But if you were not even to do that...........then you are not doing what Allah has commanded you to do. The hadith says........"But when none of these things are done, then not a single mustard's seed weight of faith is present". Allah hates evil, and He is certainly most strict in punishment. You remember when I said once that I was unable to do my night prayers. You were pretty prompt in saying that if it was the Isha prayer that I was not doing, then this could not be excused. See? You were forbidding evil. :) You disapprove of people who do not do their obligatory prayers. I think we should hate the evil we see. And I'm not talking about grey stuff. I'm talking about things that are clearly black. Things that are clearly forbidden. Things that Allah hates. Shameful deeds, sexual perversion, associating partners with Allah, openly disobeying Allah. These deeds are all black. Forbid them if you can by your hand. You can use your hand if your children disobey you. Isn't there a hadith that says if your children refuse to pray when they reach the age of ten, you are to beat them? Forbid evil by your tongue, if you cannot use your hand. There are certainly occassions when you can speak up. I did not remain silent when I heard that the sister had put up pictures of Jesus on the wall. (If the sister left Islam because I talked to her about this evil, what would that say about the sister? Too proud to submit to Allah don't you think?) And forbid evil by hating the evil in your heart......if you are unable to use your hand or your tongue. This is also a form of forbidding, but it is considered the weakest of faith. I hope muslims will AT LEAST disapprove of evil deeds in their hearts. Disapprove and not make excuses for evil deeds that are clearly black. And Allah is the best to judge, the best to guide, the best to give understanding. |
| 03/04/04 at 10:13:38 |
| amkamb |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 03/04/04 at 10:10:02 |
| [slm] Hang on just a gaul darned minute! quote: If the sister left Islam because I talked to her about this evil, what would that say about the sister? Too proud to submit to Allah don't you think?) hold your horses sister, what are your credentials that you can say anything to anybody and have it ever bear the weight of the will of Allah? Even those who know the will of Allah in such that they have memorized the quran, know every purpose of revelation of every ayah, know the abrogations, know every majority opinion and the suports of it and every minority opinion and the suports of it, have studied a vast number of hadith and know the strngth of their transmissions, plus other things such as a deep knowledge of arabic as it was used at the time of the Prophet [saw] and the idioms of the Quriaish tribe, as well as an impecable knowledge of english, even that person cant say antything with the weight of the will of Allah to anyone. However this person can use ijtihad if there is no clear ruling on a spacific issue, even though it still wont be universally binding, where as it is not ijtihad when someone without these qualifications trys dabbling in it. We can give suggestions to the others only based on our own understanding or experince and that is all. If someone rejects it, we can never assumed that they have disobeyed Allah's will. Please take that for what it is worth form the toungues of my hands in reflection of what is heartfelt. Salaam, |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| amkamb |
| 03/04/04 at 11:36:51 |
| [quote author=al-ajnabia link=board=madrasa;num=1078064763;start=20#23 date=03/04/04 at 10:10:02] Hang on just a gaul darned minute! quote: If the sister left Islam because I talked to her about this evil, what would that say about the sister? Too proud to submit to Allah don't you think?) hold your horses sister, what are your credentials that you can say anything to anybody and have it ever bear the weight of the will of Allah? [/quote] Miss al-ajnabia, I do have a temper. Watch your language. >:( I simply do not understand why there is so much sympathy for people who do wrong or indulge in evil deeds. Do you know what the punishment is for people who associate partners with Allah? To burn in Hell forever? :o The sister who is hanging the picture of Jesus on her wall is going to be severely punished. The only sin that Allah will not forgive. Once she is in hell she will never get out. Now you tell me if that is not serious. What is the punishment for a muslim who commits adultery? The punishment is ......being stoned to death. If that is the punishment in this life, what is the punishment in the Hereafter?! :o Fear Allah! You go and tell the sister that she cannot hang pictures of Jesus on the wall. You tell her she cannot go to church with her father any more. You tell her she cannot teach her child Gospel music. I truly do not understand why you have this sympathy for the sister who is indulging in these evil activities.....and are critical of the person who is forbidding it! There is a new sister ABC. She is wearing her hijab but something about the way she wears it looks wrong. Sister XYZ goes to her and tells her that the proper way to wear the hijab is to draw the head cover over the bosom. And she shows sister ABC the verse from the Qur'an. Sister ABC is offended. She decides to leave Islam. Would you criticize sister ABC or sister XYZ? Miss al-ajnabia, you are criticizing sister XYZ. And sympathizing with sister ABC! And you talk about scholars! You want to know what the scholars have to say? Please read the following Friday speech given by the Imam Mohamed Baianonie at the Islamic Center or Raleigh, NC on September 1, 2000: http://www.islam1.org/khutub/EnjoinGood_ForbidEvil.htm And hey! I'm out of this madinah. Sorry.......I am too short-tempered. |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 03/04/04 at 12:05:03 |
| [slm] since you are still logged in Before you go please look up the penalty for acusing a woman of adultury without providing suficient witness. There is more to forbiding the wrong than speaking in half quotes. It is wrong to dirve people from islam with half understandings of it pushed on others. You seem to take admonition in a way similar to sister ABC is discribed by you. |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| MIT |
| 03/04/04 at 12:45:38 |
| as-salaamu alaikum Wow.. out of the Madina already? and because of a short temper too? I think it would be a pity for amkamb to leave. But also statements like: "The sister who is hanging the picture of Jesus on her wall is going to be severely punished. The only sin that Allah will not forgive. Once she is in hell she will never get out." are EXTREMELY dangerous. |
| NS |
| 03/04/04 at 12:52:27 |
| MIT |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| timbuktu |
| 03/04/04 at 19:57:14 |
| [slm] well, i don't agree with leaving, and i hope sister amkamb comes back. i am learning a lot from her. and it is natural that she is shocked and repulsed by seeing that a new revert is still clinging to some expressions of shirk. In fact, we should all feel the same, and do something about it. Unfortunately, in the name of co-existence and pluralism, we have begun to ignore the basic tenets of Islam. may Allah (swt) guide us and keep us on the right path always, aameenl |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 03/04/04 at 20:30:44 |
| [slm] I dont think storming out was the answer either, but my I wasnt siding with signs of shirk, I was however finding the discussion increasingly more apalling. The laws of islam have a deep and subltle beauty in their combined compexity and simplicty but every kind of uglyiness has arisen out of the slip shod aplications of these laws. I dont like hearing people go off on these trips, It is worse to me than a picture because I depend on islamic law for any sense of direction, granted, it is catch as catch can for me, but it has always been a form of resistance against all that is deeply wrong. I mean deeply deeply wrong. I just found out that the core group of bad guys that I have been complaining of are what are known as "Hells Angels" in north america. Any one who knows anything about this group probably is now finding that my stories make more sense. But what you might have in pakistan that equates to them is what are called minor bandit warlords i think. and I have been hanging around under noticed enough to know that these hells angels of mine have trade agreements with some of those petty bandit warlords and that the money that flows between them funds the coruption of every concievable good in the world. I am not freaked out by pictures. Compared to this that I have grown up with, even if that girl does go to hell, it will be like the club fed of hell compared to waht these hells angels have coming to them. to me there is hypocracy and much ado over nothing in this whole thing. There are much bigger fish to fry. And I was too upset by the twisting of hadith that was going on here to thinkin about a hypathetical sister I have never met and her malbehavior. Even having seen some evil folks, I cant assume so stronlgy that anyone is going to hell, even what I just said I cant ever be sure of myself, but I can only think of it as venting, and dont expect that it will be taken as a general call to arms. This juming up and down and screaming about a girls slow progress and some personality issues, only reminds me of how little I get done when I jump up and down and scream about what is happening to me. Mice pee in the cubbords and its a real pain in the back side, but when you are used to what wolves do to the livestock, it seems only a minor anoiance, and not worth so much heeted discussion. but I'm sure I am unusual among the people of the earth. Oh well, I'm not taking offense, I'm just honing my skills for a real dangerous situation and I have to remember not to bite the city folk so hard, even when they are talking about biting others who I cant take all that seriously becauste they arent doing any physical harm to children or funding freaked out things. |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| Barr |
| 03/04/04 at 22:51:36 |
| [wlm] [quote]Furthermore, you made the statement as though it is a fact (as per your words)...that the ones who do dawah are the ones who are proud. Did you open their hearts and look inside to see pride written there? [/quote] Sis amkamb, I think jannah's statement is written in general for us to consider the implications of doing "da'wah" with a "holier than thou" attitude. I don't think she is pin-pointing specifically to anyone or everyone who does da'wah. On the other hand, its heartening to see sisters who are dedicated and passionate to uphold the truth, mashaAllah. However, the truth is not only upheld by knowledge and enthusiasm. Many a time, the challenges that many of us face, is upholding it with wisdom. Coz, arguments can be won with facts and information, but hearts are won with wisdom. So, its easier to win an argument, or to point out/ tell what is right or wrong. But its much a harder task to win hearts, yet that is the thing that truly matters- that people's hearts are won with the truth, for the truth, instead of going away from it. [quote]Furthermore it takes humility for a person to accept the fact that they are wrong about something and correct themselves.[/quote] It also takes humility for someone to take a step back, and try to understand the circumstances why another person does a bad deed. Coz, if we are being put in that other person's shoes, having the same upbringing, background and tests as he/ she does, what guarantee do we have that we wouldn't act the same? Ar-Rasul (saw) gave us options on how to help others in doing good and assist them to stop doing bad deeds in the quoted hadith above so that we can also exercise our wisdom and apply it where appropriate. And sometimes, time, silence and du'a work better than a spontaneous, tactless reaction. I think this hadith that se7en quoted is beautiful and bids us to reflect on it more: Do not hurt the feelings of Allah’s servants, do not embarrass them; do not seek to expose their faults. Whoever seeks to expose the faults of his Muslim brother, Allah will expose his faults and expose him, even if he hides in the innermost part of his home. [Ahmad] Allahua'lam |
| 03/04/04 at 22:53:44 |
| Barr |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| Nomi |
| 03/05/04 at 00:18:48 |
| [slm] I'm not liking something and i want to express it on da main this time. I *believe* that even if we think that someone is doing things the wrong way AND there is someone who is *already* conversing with that person and trying to guide him/her. Then we should adopt a wait and see methodology!! Which means, only jump in when the one you support falls short of arguments. Not many ppl can stand it when 3 or 4 people are objectiing to their views when the person being objected to is *solo*. Two vs 1 is prolly okay but not more than that, especially when the person being objected to is new to the madina. Although ppl kept their kewl and did it with proper adab but still, not everyone can stand a big number of adversaries. We have seen that before, we are experiencing it again and its really not healthy. I know i'm not the right person naseehaing about this, yet as per Hazrat Ali (radi Allahu anhu)'s saying (or prolly it was a hadith.. not sure) one should care about whats being said and not about whose saying it! (in this case, 'if' its good/logical) [slm] |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| sohuman |
| 03/05/04 at 09:00:38 |
| [quote author=MIT link=board=madrasa;num=1078064763;start=20#26 date=03/04/04 at 12:45:38] I think it would be a pity for amkamb to leave. But also statements like: "The sister who is hanging the picture of Jesus on her wall is going to be severely punished. The only sin that Allah will not forgive. Once she is in hell she will never get out." are EXTREMELY dangerous. [/quote] Hmmm. I wonder if the sister who is indeed hanging the pic of Eesa (alayhissalam), if she were to die this evening, I wonder what would happen to her. Yup. I certainly think Hell is a dangerous place to be flung into. No doubt about that. I think the sister is doing something very dangerous by hanging pictures of Eesa (alayhisalam) on the wall. It is the sister who is in a dangerous position. [] And as for the discussion, well, it is one thing to cover up the faults of muslims. Quite another to make excuses. I will not understand it if you were to make excuses for people who do wrong. Prophet Muhammad [saw] was not the one who said we are to make excuses. There is no hadith that says that. |
| NS |
| 03/05/04 at 09:07:51 |
| sohuman |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| MIT |
| 03/05/04 at 09:19:09 |
| as-salaamu alaikum I don't need to wonder about what happens to her if she dies. Thats for Allah to decide. My point was that we can't condemn any particular person to the Hellfire. And at the same time, i do acknowledge that hanging up a picture of Jesus is the wrong thing to do. |
| NS |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| sohuman |
| 03/05/04 at 17:50:18 |
| [quote author=MIT link=board=madrasa;num=1078064763;start=30#32 date=03/05/04 at 09:19:09]My point was that we can't condemn any particular person to the Hellfire. [/quote] [slm], That's right Brother. We cannot condemn anyone to Hell fire. It is Allah who tells us that people who associate partners with Him will be condemned to Hell fire. Is there any doubt in your mind about what the punishment is for anyone who hangs a pic of Jesus or Buddha or Indra on the wall? No muslim would dare to hang a pic of Jesus on the wall. Why? Because there is no doubt as to the punishment. Are you in doubt about what the punishment will be for the sister who is hanging pic of Eesa (alayhisalam)? Are you saying that she is not going to be punished? If you are not sure what will happen to people who worship other gods, you seriously need to re-read the Qur'an. It is something fundamental you should absolutely be aware of. That goes for every single person who calls himself or herself muslim. |
| NS |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 03/05/04 at 18:22:52 |
| [slm] The processof becoming a member of a religion that a person wasnt raised in is a long process with many stages. How do we even know that the sister of the wall jesus even really understood the meaning of the shahada or what counceling she recieved about monotheism and how islamic concept of monotheism differs from what the christains call monotheism? If everyone who hangs a picture on the wall is going to hell (we do not have any evidence that she has been worshipping that picture) (also I thought the ruling on pictures was that angels dont enter houses with pictures and dogs) then alowing people to take the shahada uneducated in the basics of islam is the same as casting them into hell directly by our own actions. If it really is that serious, that anything that any onlooker might construe as polytheism is enough, on the weight of the opinion of an onlooker, to insure hell, then dawa is far to dangerous a process for people to lightly engage in and only sheukh who can dedicate a lifetime to an individual should be engaged in it. The way this thread has been running it has bbeen presenting the idea that any body of any religion is going to go to hell if for some misunderstood reason they take the shahada, because even the apearance of makeing a grave error leads to real condemnation. I think that is kind of extreem and a bit innovative. Until she understands, I doubt she is incuring the penalty, reading the whole quran tends to give that opinion, since it it is the concept that we are only in jeapardy of hell if we are aware that we are doing evil. The shahada isnt a magic incantation that only needs to be pronounced with correct phonology to be binding on an individual, In order to for it to mean anything the speaker needs to know what they are saying, Does not Allah know what is in the Heart and what is not in the heart? Is He only listening to the sounds we make outloud? am I wrong? |
| Re: Making 70 Excuses |
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| jannah |
| 03/06/04 at 00:28:13 |
| [color=red] Takfir (aka condemning someone to hell forever) is not allowed on this board. Please re-read the constitution. This thread is now closed. [/color] |
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