Madina Archives

Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board

Please Forgive Me!
amkamb
03/07/04 at 23:08:43
[slm], Oh my dearest brothers and sisters in Islam, we are one brotherhood.  And Islam is a beautiful religion.  I have come back to ask all of you to forgive me!  I am truly in tears for losing my temper and leaving this wonderful madina in a fit!   I have been wrong.  After I calmed down I began to see things a little straight.  I've been wrong, wrong, wrong!  I am truly sorry if I have hurt anybody's feelings....for a believer takes care not to hurt the feelings of others.  Miss al-ajnabia, please forgive me.   Istaghfirullah! There are so many nice brothers and sisters here........so helpful, so kind.  Br. timbuktu please forgive me.  Sr. jannah please forgive me.  Br. Nomi chhotey bhai, I ask you to forgive me. I do have a terrible problem with my temper.  Ya Allah!  I seriously need help on this one. Don't know if this temper is going to wreck me one day.  The prophet  [saw] said that the strongest man was the one who could control his temper. Please make du'aa for me! Jazak Allah Khair!

Re: Please Forgive Me!
Caraj
03/08/04 at 00:42:48
WHAT!!!!!!!!    :o You mean someone besides me has temper tantrums on the board  8) (Azizah stomps her foot and rolls her eyes) Now I have competition  :'( Sis I hate to tell you this you weren't the first and I bet you won't be the last. :-)

Re: Please Forgive Me!
Nomi
03/08/04 at 00:53:50
[slm] Sis it takes alot of courage and killing of one's ego to apologise. And not many have the courage to do it! You asked for forgiveness publically, thats not something many ppl can do! At least ppl dont explicity name those who they are apologizing to. So that makes you v-special. Looking forward to your posts. [slm] "chotta" (younger) bro :) ps: And i've forgiven you.. only problem is that i dont recall why you had to apologize to me ;) (j/k)

Re: Please Forgive Me!
timbuktu
03/08/04 at 04:38:16
[slm] thanks sister amkamb for returning to the forum. Now I can continue to learn from your questions and views  :) actually it is I who should apologize, because even when agreeing with you, at times I have put forward an opposite view, to get more elucidation of the issue at hand.
03/08/04 at 04:41:43
timbuktu

Re: Please Forgive Me!
amkamb
03/08/04 at 14:26:28
[slm], Sis Azizah, haven't heard from you in a while!  Didn't know I am in the same boat as you.......I mean the "Temper Tantrum Boat".  Sometimes that boat rocks so much it is in danger of sinking!   Seriously, is there any lecture or speech on anger management, anything at all that can help us to COOL down?   8)

Re: Please Forgive Me!
al-ajnabia
03/08/04 at 14:42:32
[slm] I'm glad you're back, sis amkamb. Where I come from, we just brawl these things out and nobody takes any real offense, though a lot of time we all know eachother so well we know how much we each can take.  I was just trying to point out where you were crossing the line (takfir) hoping you would think about it and try another aproach. I just read a story today about two muslim brothers one was always fulfilling his reliegious obligations and the other wasnt so one was always telling the other he would go to hell< but when they got to the last day Allah forgave the other and did not forive the one because it is only for Allah to decide who is for what place. So I guess the point of the story was, from my interpretation only, that the admonitions about jannah and hell are for each person directly from Allah as a warning, not for others to take as signs so that they can predict wherer their brothers and sisters are going to end up. But I have a cracked skull, sO I try only my best to express what I can and hope fot patience form my brothers and sisters.

Re: Please Forgive Me!
Tesseract
03/08/04 at 17:13:18
Wa'alaikum Assalam wa rahmatullah,           MashaAllah sis. amkamb, that's such a brave decision to come back and apologize publically on the board. May Allah make things easy between all us brothers and sisters (Ameen). Your post reminded me of a hadeeth (which I cannot quote exactly, but roughly) that Rasoolullah (saw) said that the strongest amongst us is not the one who overpowers the other (in physical stength), but the one who overcomes his/her anger, and SubhanAllah, I can see that u defeated shaytaan and proved to be one of the strongest amongst us. May Allah give all of us the tawfeeq to do that. Here is a link to some Ahadeeth on tolerance from Riyad-us-Saliheen:          [url]http://www.masmn.org/Hadith/Riyad_Us_Saliheen/00_0074.htm[/url] Wassalam.

Re: Please Forgive Me!
amkamb
03/08/04 at 20:06:19
[slm], Respected brothers and sisters!  That is the beauty of Islam!  Absolute beauty of Islam!  You simply cannot be angry with your fellow brothers and sisters for more than three days.  I'm glad I did not reach the three day point.  Otherwise Allah may not have forgiven me.   You are my brothers and sisters, maybe not related by blood, but certainly related by something much stronger than blood......our belief in Allah and His Messenger  [saw].  More particularly, our belief in the Oneness of God, which is tawhid. I am aware of the hadith Sis al-ajnabia.  I'm glad you brought that up.  It is wrong for any one of us to say this one or that one is going to hell, or that Allah is not going to forgive this one or that one.  Very wrong. With Allah rests all decisions and He can forgive any one He likes AS LONG AS THAT PERSON DOES NOT ASSOCIATE PARTNERS WITH HIM.   I think all of us know that Allah forgives all sins EXCEPT the sin of shirk.   The subject of Tawhid is intense.  Shirk could mean the worship of the Self (nafs), our desires, Satan, money, work, some great saints, prophets etc.  Anybody who engages in shirk will not be forgiven, and that is the core message of Islam.  If indeed you tell me Allah might forgive me even if I engage in shirk, then, that would mean you can worship anything you like and not worry about being punished.  It won't even matter if I do not believe in Allah and His Messenger  [saw].  I could remain a Hindu, Christian, Jew or even an atheist.  If people who worship others gods are going to be forgiven, or there is even a teeny-weeny chance that they are going to be forgiven, then let me become a Christian right now this very minute!  Istaghfirullah! If someone says the Shahadah he or she enters the fold of Islam.  But if that person engages in shirk even after reciting the kalima, then that is indeed very serious.  If the sister is doing other things which are forbidden in Islam, I wouldn't even worry about it.  Allah may still forgive her out of His Mercy IF SHE DOES NOT ASSOCIATE PARTNERS with Him.  But the moment you see evidence that she is committing shirk, you make it your business to tell her what the consequences are.  You MUST tell her .....if you like for your fellow brother in Islam what you like for yourself.  And it is up to Allah to guide her.  We cannot guide anybody.

Re: Please Forgive Me!
al-ajnabia
03/08/04 at 21:19:05
[slm] From what I have read everything in islam has to be done with intention, it is the intention in what we do that makes it right or wrong on our acount.  It is also our knowledge of the right or wrong of it. I think the verse that Allah forgives everything but shirk is a catch 22 in a way,not contradictory, I'm not saying that, but if we take it as, we dont know that anyone is going to hell but this person who is doing that one act, we are in fact commiting that act ourselves, because only Allah knows who is for hell or jannah and now we are saying we have that knowledge... quit it, will ya, seriously, there is more in the heart than anyone can know. In islam there are topics that in other religions lead to deep and fruitless discussions but in islam they are wisely labled "don't go there".  Its no matter what time.  No matter what. No matter what. I'm not saying nor have I ever said dont try to correct her, I'm just pointing out that that (the takfir thing) is not an option.  Dont do it. Its like an illegal trump or something, it explains nothing, but besides that it is forbidden. It just doesnt sound very convincing,anyway, especially to someone who is leaving christianity. Me personally, my sticking point, is when people keep doing what they know the harm in, I have a hard time imagining Allah forgiving that, but recently I've had some insight and its not so hard anymore, I dont know how to explain it though. Maybe it is just that it is no good for the soul of the person who ingages in takfir. Consider it like this though, if it is possible to worship money or anything like that who of us at some point or another hasnt ever doen something like thinking money is going to help them soemhow which is something that only Allah can do? I think since shirk does lead to damnation, it must require some form of consumation of that act but I dont know what it is. I know there I things I used to resist, when I still couldnt be myself, to avoid shirk, but those htings were only internally aparent, I know no one else could see it but Allah. I think the thing with shirk is that on the day of judgement a true shirker is going to be ignooring Allah's call waiting to be called by someone else, but I dont know where I got that.  So people may have attachemnts that arent shirk, and they may be comming shirk with things that arent that aparent to human senses and limited intellect. But I hope you dont get mad, I just think theres no exception, none of us but Allah can decide even if shirk has been comitted, He didnt even make that clear to us. Its just not our place to make that call.

Re: Please Forgive Me!
MIT
03/09/04 at 05:26:28
as-salaamu alaikum Furthermore, it wasn't made clear whether that picture of Jesus was there and he was worshippde through it. If so, then obviously that is the clear shirk that is unforgivable. However, perhaps the new Muslimah still loves Jesus. How far that love goes was the question... Its good that you decided to come back, insha'Allah.
NS

Re: Please Forgive Me!
Maliha
03/09/04 at 10:13:22
[slm] i saw the disintegration of the first thread, and somehow whenever i wanted to say something...it just died as i attempted to type it. i guess i couldn't formulate the words, i couldn't envision the picture of Rasul  [saw] and how he would deal with the exact same situation. for one, who grew up in the religion, and went thru' phases of ignorance, rediscovery, struggle, the ups and downs of the journey...i realize that the Dayi'as most impactful moments are not ones spent preaching, but enacting and encompassing the fullness of the Rasul's [saw] compassion, wisdom, beauty and diplomacy. for no matter how grave the sin is, Allah's Rahma transcends that gravity. And just as He allows me to walk, breathe, talk, and be healthy *despite* my many and continued transgressions....I can find space in my heart not to quickly jump to conclusions, or get on the mission to save a soul. Sometimes all it takes is friendship, patient tarbiyya, and the gentleness that colors the whole world beauty. Allah opens certain hearts to His deen....but some hearts are like budding flowers, so delicate to the rays of light..they take a while to comprehend, and be able to discern the different factors at play. The manifestation of true Tawheed, is hard to completely get a grasp of *even* for those on the path of knowledge...let alone a revert...still struggling, still exploring, still taking the first tentative steps. the same applies to all the strugglers on the path...whether its the hijab with some hair showing, or the alcoholic, or whatever. its a struggle, and even with the verbal commitment, the actual true implementation takes a while. Sometimes instead of pointing out the obvious, we could simply be around them...cheering them when they take the good steps. having halaqas, exchanging books, inviting eachother and simply being around...a pillar of comfort, strength, understanding, compassion. what helps me when i get mad, frustrated, etc...is really curving out some time and read or Quran or make mad duah to the One who knows all my secrets. I sit there and finger the painful memories of my past, all the decisions i shouldn't have made, all the betrayals, anger, sadness...all the petty backbiting, bickering..all the rudeness, unwarranted glances...all the sins that each of my joints have accumulated even in my "best" of times. And that really breaks me down...churns my insides into the dust i really am. a book i'd highly recommend is called the "Ethics of disagreement" by Taha Alwani. Amazing to see how gracefully and sophisticatedly our predecessors disagreed. It's really wonderful to be able to put our petty squabbles into a larger framework and make us rethink our place in history. i didn't say any of the above sis, to imply you don't do that...or i am siding with the "other"..or anything. but these have been on my mind..and i thought i'd share. i hope that made sense... nice to see you back:) sis in struggle, [wlm]

Re: Please Forgive Me!
sohuman
03/09/04 at 10:20:25
[slm], Just wanted to ask a question.  Would any one of you hang a pic of Eesa (alayhisalam) on the wall?  If no, why not? I mean you could say you are not worshipping the pic.  That's a fine excuse.   My question is.........why play with Fire?  And what possibly could be the intention in the heart of the sis who is hanging the pic. "Iyyaka na'abdu wa iyyaka nasta'een".......what in the world does that mean?

Re: Please Forgive Me!
stranger
03/09/04 at 10:57:12
[slm] I think the point is that nobody knows what is in the heart of another person.  Remember the hadith in which some sahaba radiallahu anhu killed a person in battle right after he had said the shahada, and when the prophet [saw] asked him about it after, he said it was obvious he only said it to save his life, and the prophet said how do you know what was in his heart.  So this should be a lesson for us.  And even if the person says with his mouth lailahaillallah, and does something else, the prophet didn't curse them or damn them, or confront them, but he would warn the people in general terms about such and such type of people and we should all warn ourselves too because we may be in some superstition, or something and are unaware of it.  So as to this person who does it, why not just remind them in kind terms about allah subhana wata'ala, and his beautiful creations, and how the created is not the same as the creator, and maybe they will eventually get a hint about what they are doing in their own life.  Wallahu a'lam if this is the right approach. [slm]

Re: Please Forgive Me!
MIT
03/09/04 at 11:12:36
wa alaikum us-salaam wa rahmatullah SoHuman, I do understand the point that you're making, and no one is advocating that a picture of Jesus is hung in the home. The fact is, there is some sister somewhere who does, and she is a new Muslim. How does one deal with that in a way that doesn't send a person back out of Islam if you don't know what the state of their imaan is? Not every revert will take the shahadah and be bold and strong about the faith like Umar radiAllahu anhu. Regardless, keeping that image in the house is impermissible. The issue is what is the best way to have it got rid of. And i just remembered this: "In the famous story of the tribe of Thaqif, when the pagans asked the Prophet to retain their idol, al-Laat, and not to destroy it for three years. The Prophet refused and they kept asking him for a lesser and lesser time, even for one month, but he still refused. He then sent Abu Sufyaan ibn Harb and al-Mughira ibn Shu’bah who destroyed it..." which does support your position. And ideally, when a person gives up shirk that person should free themselves completely from that shirk.
NS

Re: Please Forgive Me!
sohuman
03/09/04 at 13:42:45
[slm], Bro. MIT you are right.  Here is one hadith I came upon. Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib: AbulHayyaj al-Asadi told that Ali ibn AbuTalib said to him: Should I not send you on the same mission as Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) sent me? Do not leave an image without obliterating it, or a high grave without levelling it. This hadith has been reported by Habib with the same chain of transmitters and he said: (do not leave) a picture without obliterating it. - (Muslim)

Re: Please Forgive Me!
Maliha
03/09/04 at 14:44:11
[slm] please everyone reading this thread, go and get Sh. Al Qardawi's "Islamic Awakening: between rejection and extremism". It is extremely insightful and a key to unlocking what kind of balance is required when we are attempting to walk ze path. Also sohuman and others be *very* careful about taking hadiths out of context. I really can't stress that enuff. It is leading to many misunderstandings and conflicts with the very objectives of the Shariah. here's a little relevant excerpt from Al Qardawi. Please note, i am *not* using this to condone the lady with images, but in general to put the hadith sohuman produced in a larger context of trying to understand what it means when something contradicts the larger interest of the community. On this very issue he states elsewhere "A verse of Quran or hadith can not be taken in isolation as an authority without reference to other verses or ahadith that may elaborate, explain and qualify it. This is an area that requires *expert* knowledge". Al Qardawi states: [i] "A Muslim who seeks Allah's pleasure can choose to place restrictions on himself and stick to the mot extreme and cautious opinion in his endeavor. He can deprive himself of all means of entertainment, such as singing, music, photography, television etc. But can any modern state afford to do without these? Can any effective journalism do without photography? Can the ministry of interior, a passport officer, immigration or traffic department or an educational institution do without photography, which has become the most important means of discovering and preventing crimes and forgery? Can science or medicine be taught or practiced without pictures or photography? And what of satellite pictures for defence and weather forecasting? ... In short a person's restrictions on himself can be tolerated and accepted, but it would be intolerable and unacceptable to force them on various groups and the community as a whole. The Prophet (SAW) himself emphasized making things easy for the sake of the weaker members of the community. .." [/i] He really dileanates a lot of the sicknesses that we are undergoing today in terms of the psyche. Another awesome read is the "Crises of the Muslim mind" by Abu Sulayman which puts our whole history, struggle and present in a very comprehensive perspective. May Allah gives us all hidayah (Amin). Sis in struggle, [wlm]

Re: Please Forgive Me!
amkamb
03/09/04 at 17:36:15
[slm], Sr. Nur al layl, you have a point there.  We must not quote hadiths out of context. About that photograph thing, I agree too.  Good example. I was wondering about this "enjoining good and forbidding evil" commandment that Allah has imposed upon us.  I think the correct question should be : HOW should we go about doing it? Does anyone have any suggestions?  I think we need to look for solutions.

Re: Please Forgive Me!
timbuktu
03/09/04 at 18:46:52
[slm] Sis Nur, your posts have been of great help to me, and there is much here too, that touches a chord, but there is something I disagree with. Qaradawi is a scholar deserving our respect. I find plenty in his works that appeals to me. but: The question is not whether a state can do without photography or not. The question is what is permitted. The picture of Jesus (as) on the wall is definitely a no no. The music and singing and dances are forbidden. Qaradawi talks of entertainment. Do we have to enact scenes of love for entertainment? What is it that Allah (swt) has sent us here for? Is it to follow the deen brought by the prophet [saw] or is it to invent new deens. What will happen near the end-of-times? The deen will become "ghareeb". So those who enjoin good and forbid evil will be shunned. Isn't this happening now? and about "context", I agree but I would have found it helpful if you had explained how the Hadith quoted was out of context. To me it seemed quite proper, but then I am not knowledgeable. In my life I had met two types of reverts. One is the type who has understood that Islam is the only way, and is struggling to learn and to establish it in his/her life and in the world around. The other is one who has said the shahada for some worldly benefit, like getting married. Now I hear of those who have said the shahada without understanding, and without much social benefit. You would know the Quranic verse which goes something like "when the kafir women come to you (in Hijra) that they have accepted Islam, first check to make sure they have indeed done so". So while I agree that we should do dawah with hikmah, we must also make sure that the truth (of Islam) is not diluted by accepting those things which are contradictory to its message. Have you studied the various sects in Islam, and their beliefs? Have you studied the practices of Islamic people which are at odds with Islam? Do you know of people who called themselves Muslims and worshipped idols in their homes? Of course dawah was done with hikmah, and they changed, but wouldn't it be better to nip this in the bud, rather than let it blossom, and let a lot of generations go to hell worshipping idols. Near Delhi (India) there is a locality called Meewat. One of the maulvis of Delhi was very fond of preaching, and he would go to villages around Delhi. He eventually wandered into Meewat, and was surprised to find that there were two types of people living there. One was definitley Hindu, and the other looked Hindu too, but insisted that it was muslim. "How are you different from Hindus?" the maulvi asked. The muslims proudly produced ther idols. The maulvi did not understand. The muslims explained: "Our idols are made of flour and kept in clean places, while the Hindus make their idols of cow dung, and pour cow urine in their place of worship." The maulvi said: "good, now remember to keep the difference". and then began the dawah which has grown today as Tableeghi Jamaat. I don't agree with all that the TJ does, but here was a slow dawah work among a group of Muslims who had forgotten Islam. Does anyone remember the story of how the people of Noah came to worship idols? There are other groups who have had to compromise on Islam - out of political, economic or other pressures. Have you heard of the moriscoes. Many still live in Morocco and Algeria, and are Christians, albeit with some Islam thrown in, or you could describe them in reverse. Look into what happened to the muslims under the communists. Hear the Bosnians and other Balkan people, and the Muslims of the Central Asian Republics. and no one remembers those of Estonia and Lithuania. What is happening in the West in mixed marriages, particularly where the woman is a muslimah. What will the next generation grow up into. This so-called tolerance is giving rise to a generation of half-muslims. please, I agree with doing dawah with hikmah, but do not take tolerance to a level where what is forbidden may become the norm for the next generation.
03/09/04 at 21:11:42
timbuktu

Re: Please Forgive Me!
al-ajnabia
03/09/04 at 20:02:30
[slm] I'm trying to think of how to do this... I'm constantly struggling with what I can and cant tollerate and the consequences of when the things that I should and shouldnt tolerate get confused.  I dont think my exererince is all that different from some people who grew up in unpracticing homes, so I can relate to sis nur's periods of amnesia, I think actually a lot of muslims can relate, but some cant, I dont know why. I'm going to try to do this the best I can generally in the prophet's [saw]example: somewhere there is this woman who decided that her daughter should not be raised as a muslim, her family ignoored her choice, but she was "liberated" and was always trying to take matters into her own hands.  The little girl was continually confused.  Sometimes her mother and her mother's friends could manipulate her behavior, and sometimes she could be clear enough to follow her muslim relatives's examples.  One day the little girl discovered that her muslim guides sometimes told her to do as her mother wanted, because they feared for her life and her mind in her confusion.  The girl grew up and moved toward the right way, getting stronger in self defense and lived in the right example for many years, she even forgot her mother. but no matter where she turned those times when she was defending her life, was enduring what is beyond comprehension to most, kept geting talked about although thes things happend ten or fifteen or twenty years earlier and she had lived her best life for all that time since. So she had to remember what she didnt what to know and she realized that his woman, her mother who didnt want her raised as a muslim and encouraged her in lewdness and discouraged her in chastity to the point of injury was teaching others about Islam. And she knew that others would not comprehend her if she tried to tell them. So she was angry, but she forgot herself and hid her anger, began to act unilaterally, fighting against her own drowning in filth by the hands of the one whose sin had brought her here.   And the majority of her fight was only to become educated, and to just not be what her mother was, and to teach by best example, pray not to be misunderstood though when she would from time to time swoop into filth to pick out one struggling there or to simply avert her eyes at times from unspeakable things, and she prays that she will not let herself be taken advantage of, but also that she wont prejudge other people who come up form down if she ever manages ot get up herself. The thing about this girl is, this woman I mean, is that when she goes home at night, and goes to bed, she sleeps with stuffed animals, and she knows Aisha(raa)had the same , but if any one ever tells her about any conclusive evidence that a grown woman is not allowed them, she will probably kick their butt so hard that they may be looking a little insisde out for a while. Then she may just go to one of her mother's lectures on Islam a quietly seethe. I dont know if you can think of how that relates to priorities when it comes to dawa but basically people pick on the stuff they know there wont be a big fight over rather than the serious issues that led to them.  Sometimes I say about stuff that is wrong I say "the sin is further up stream" that is the cause of this sin is that sin over there and unless I do something about that sin I may be doing more harm than good. I dont condone havin to tollerate bupkis, I just accept that patience is the only way to see the opening that alows the real cesation of the evil at hand, and sometimes its not even a good idea to let them know you are coming. I dont know if that makes any sense. Just an attempt.

Re: Please Forgive Me!
UmmWafi
03/09/04 at 20:38:38
[slm] my beautiful Rainbow I give gratitude to Allah SWT that I can still read your beautiful words.  Alhamdulillah, despite what you told me of your classes, you are still the same beautiful Rainbow that lights up an otherwise dreary sky. I have so much to say with regards to this thread (as per a continuation of the other thread) and yet I find that I cannot say much. On a lighter note though, I remember hanging a picture of Hello Kitty on the door of my closet cos she was soo cute, then in my secondary school I hang posters of groups I adore (some of them heavy metal groups) and now, the only thing I hang on my walls are beautiful khats of Quranic verses (my favourite being the khat of the Surah Yasin on an inalid of gold).  Maybe what I hang on my walls are a reflection of stages of my iman and 'ilm, Allahua 'alim. I remember once that I was very repentant of a minor mistake I made (unintentionally) and I felt very guilty.  It wracked my mind such that I couldnt wait to see my sheikh the next day to ask him help in easing my conscience.  What he said was so simple and sweet that it has become one of my life codes.  When your conscience prick you, that means you still think and feel with the nur of taqwa.  Be thankful. Do your nafilah in gratitude for the conscience and then seek forgiveness from those you have hurt.  Once forgiveness has been granted, speak no more of the transgression.  Repentance is also accepting the repercussions of your act. As always, I digress. My humble apologies. Wassalam

Re: Please Forgive Me!
bhaloo
03/09/04 at 21:15:27
[slm] [quote author=amkamb link=board=madrasa;num=1078718923;start=10#16 date=03/09/04 at 17:36:15] I was wondering about this "enjoining good and forbidding evil" commandment that Allah has imposed upon us.  I think the correct question should be : HOW should we go about doing it? [/quote] There was a thread (or maybe a post I put up) on this topic some time back, and I took the information from Sheikh ul Islam Ibn Tamiyyah's book, Commanding the Good and Forbidding the Evil. There was another article I came across as well on this topic. http://saif_w.tripod.com/explore/dawah/commanding_good_forbidding_evil.htm

Re: Please Forgive Me!
Maliha
03/09/04 at 22:23:38
[slm] awwwwww ummwafi:) you are always there to make me feel like "phew..I am sane!" :'( bro timbuktu, read the whole book to understand what Sh. Al Qardawi was talking about. The Sheikh (hafidhahullah) is really brilliant, and i have not witnessed any transgressions on his part. There are many *halal* entertainments you know? Aside from that he speaks of a lot, and warns against going to extremes...on both sides. Some of the manifestations of "extremism" (he defines it as going far away from the center) are :  bigotry, harsh sternness, excessiveness in all things, ill mannerism, and suspicion become dominant traits in those people, despite the ironic fact that all of these have been condemned severely by the Quran and Sunnah . Can you imagine the Rasul [saw] in Makkah, where everyone was steeped in the worst excesses of ignorance and darkness? Aisha (RA) was known to say that if the Rasul [saw] had simply come and immediately told people to stop drinking, no one would become Muslim.(paraphrase). The wisdom *and* context of these words, lie in the fact that the Rasul [saw] through patient training, education, wisdom, kindness, implanted the beauty of Tawheed in people's hearts. Have you wondered why is it that the Quran is so heartwrenchingly rhythmic, poetic, simply mesmerizing? Have you wondered why Allah has encapsulated the most breathtaking beauty in every aspect of the universe, nature, our beings, even the very atoms within us? Human nature gravitates naturally to a certain things, and Allah in His All Encompassing Wisdom is leaving no room for us to deny His Majesty on the day of Judgement. We are all steeped in varying degrees of ignorance. But how are we to extract ourselves and our loved ones from the madness within and without? Are we going to follow the path of Wisdom or brashness? the path of compassion or sternness? the path of insight or stubborn blindness? i saw another point that really disturbed me; how can we tell Muslims not to associate with "disbelievers". How are we supposed to function in the West, or anywhere else in the world without impacting others in a positive way? Isn't that Dawah at its best? In terms of trying to understand hadith and Quran in a proper context, that is not something I made up. That is not an "invention" of the deen. That is simply what is required to understand the comprehensiveness of our struggle. You wonder why so many "movements" have failed, it is precisely this delicate blindness or onesided approach to the complex nature of this world that has failed us and will continue to do so until we really begin to grasp the totality of our mission...and the weight of the trust on our shoulders. We can continue doing things haphazardly, and continue pushing people (even our loved ones) away from us and our beautiful deen...or we can begin to relearn the art of nurturing, tending and blossoming hearts sincerely for the sake of Allah. one wise person said on this board, that people may be guided regardless by Allah but do you want someone to come to Islam because of you or inspite of you? (rough paraphrase). there is a lot of work to be done, but sometimes simplicity can be counterproductive. Wa Allahu Ta'ala A'lam. sis in struggle. [wlm]

Re: Please Forgive Me!
amkamb
03/09/04 at 23:01:12
Br. bhaloo, that was excellent information you provided.  May Allah reward you for shedding some light. But I have something to say with regard to this: [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=madrasa;num=1078718923;start=20#21 date=03/09/04 at 22:23:38] i saw another point that really disturbed me; how can we tell Muslims not to associate with "disbelievers". How are we supposed to function in the West, or anywhere else in the world without impacting others in a positive way? Isn't that Dawah at its best? [/quote] Might I say I function perfectly fine by not associating with disbelievers?  In fact I have actually given up a very close friendship with a Christian couple.  I invited them to Islam and when they rejected the message, I stopped visiting them altogether.  I used to visit them and hang around them, even go to stores and shopping centers with them......a woman who was clearly muslim because I wore the hijab but who had still to understand what Allah said in the Qur'an about not associating with the disbelievers.   I stay away from disbelievers and will not spend my valuable time in their company UNLESS they demonstrate an interest in Islam. And I tell this to every sister I know.  I tell them to be very careful about the kind of people they associate with. I understand Sr. Nur, you like the soft approach.  But sometimes that approach does not work.  If a man beats his ten year old son because the son is neglecting his prayer, I'd say the man is one of the kindest in the whole world.   8)
03/09/04 at 23:04:20
amkamb

Re: Please Forgive Me!
timbuktu
03/10/04 at 00:13:44
[slm] all brother bhaloo, your link gives me an error: The requested URL could not be retrieved can you help me? and please change your nick, become a bull instead. sis Nur and sis amkamb: i am also for a soft and comprehensive approach, but knowing humans a little, sometimes a harsh word can do the trick. when I was young, i used a word of abuse for my brother. My mother immediately picked up an amber and was going to burn my tongue. It was with a lot of tauba and promises that i escaped that fate. For the next 35 years, I went through hell at times from others, but not a word of abuse escaped my lips, although I would be boiling inside. and I understand that the context of the Hadith, in fact of all relevant Quranic verses and AHadeeth are important. Also the prevalent environment, the person's mental and emotional makeup, etc. should all be taken into account. regarding the difference of opinion you two have about association with non-believers, in my view both are right, but partly so. You see, for a person of amkamb's personality, at least for the present, it is disturbing to be in association with someone who is a mushrik. For others, it is a stimulus to be with them, and to try to win them over. But sis amkamb, how will dawah be conducted if there is no association witht them. and many reverts have non-muslim relatives. The prophet [saw] asked his wife to deal kindly with her relatives. I have told you how I was straying from the deen when in the West. For the sake of my children, I am glad Allah (swt) brought me back here, where we have problems of practice as well, but at least we hear the adhan five times a day, and people do try to pray, and people do dawah. Many a times association with non-muslims can affect your beliefs and practice adversely. I have both traits. I know we cannot cut ourselves off from the non-muslim world. In fact, it would be counter-productive. I know of groups in Islam which cut themselves off and regressed into obeying their leader, who led them astray. brothers and sisters: one thing i have learnt is that when Allah swt says you will be tested, then rest assured we will all be tested, and that too, all the time - as a group, and as individuals. may Allah (swt) make us pass all tests with flying colors, and grant us Firdaws-e-a3alaa aameen
03/10/04 at 07:58:55
timbuktu

Re: Please Forgive Me!
MIT
03/10/04 at 06:17:36
as-salaamu alaikum Sorry to labour on this point. I'd been looking for this info over the last day or so, but couldn't find it till now. Below is a fatwa from Sh. Ibn al-Uthaimeen in which he discusses the issue of calling a specific individual a disbeliever. Sister amkamb, its a very interesting approach you take towards the issue of associating with disbelievers. I think it would be impossible to maintain for a brother (or sister who works) due to the inevitablility of interacting with non-Muslims at work. I guess it depends on the individual da'iyahs circumstances; how they think they operate best; what approach is best for their own imaan, what other issues influence them - e.g. lets say a person reverts and his family are non-Muslims who aren't interested in listening to Islam. Could that person disassociate from the family? Would it be right to do so? Allahu a'lam. I know of one brother who gave da'wah to his mother for 20 years before she reverted. ---------------------- Question: O Shaikh, may Allaah preserve you and take care of you – what is the meaning of the statement of Shaikh ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah, "Takfir of a specific individual requires specific evidence (takfir ul-mu’ayyan yahtaju ila dalil mu’ayyan)"? Answer: You know, may Allaah bless you, that the (Shari’ah) rulings are sometimes associated with a description (wasf) and sometimes associated with an individual. For example we say, ‘Every believer is from the people of Paradise’. This is a general statement which is associated with a description, every believer is in Paradise and every disbeliever is in the Fire. However, do we say in the case of a specific individual, so and so is from Paradise? Do you say about this specific individual, so and so is from the people of Fire? Hence, there is a difference between that which is associated with a description and that which is associated with an individual. When a person utters a statement of disbelief or commits an act of kufr, then we do not declare him to be a disbeliever until we look at what motivated him to do that. Then, we behave with him (i.e. pass a ruling over him) based upon what his (specific) situation demands. A man is compelled to prostrate to an idol, so he prostrates. And another is compelled to utter a statement of kufr, so he says it. Have both of these men disbelieved? No. Because Allaah has said, Whoever disbelieved in Allâh after his belief, except him who is forced thereto and whose heart is at rest with Faith but such as open their breasts to disbelief, on them is wrath from Allâh, and theirs will be a great torment. [Nahl 16:106] So His statement "Whoever disbelieves in Allaah after having faith" is inclusive of the one who disbelieves by words or deeds. So this man who prostrated to an idol under compulsion and the man who uttered a statement of disbelief under compulsion, is his action one of kufr or not? Yes, his action is one of kufr. But is he a kafir? No. This is because, there exists a preventative barrier that restrains from takfir, and that is compulsion. And then [there is the case of] the man who exceeded in transgression against his own soul and who said to his family, ‘When I die, burn me and scatter my ashes into the sea’. He did this thinking that he will be saved from the punishment of Allaah by it. Then his family did what he had ordered them. And Allaah – the Mighty and Majestic – gathered his ashes together and brought him back and asked him ‘Why did you do it?’ He replied, ‘My Lord, I feared Your punishment’. And so Allaah forgave him. [Bukhari, Kitab ut-Tawhid]. The act of this man is one of kufr, why? Because he doubted in the power of Allaah, and doubted that Allaah is able to bring him together again and punish him. However, since the reason behind this act of his was his fear of the punishment of Allaah – the Mighty and Majestic – Allaah forgave him. Hence, the meaning of the words of Shaikh ul-Islam – may Allaah have mercy upon him – it is said: the disbelief that is associated with a description, then judgement can be made by it in all circumstances, [such as] whoever disbelieves in Allaah will be in the Fire, whoever prostrates to an idol is a disbeliever, whoever says that there is another deity alongside Allaah is a disbeliever [and so on]. However, with respect to a specific individual, you must not make a judgement against him until you investigate; he could be ignorant and not know, or he could have made an interpretation (ta’wil) [that is incorrect], or there could be a situation in which he was made to utter words without actually intending them. The Prophet – may the prayers and peace be upon him – informed us that Allaah rejoices more with the repentance of his servant than [the rejoicing of] a man who has lost his camel in the desert, seeking to find it but to no avail, so he despairs of finding it again. Then he rests under a tree and awaits death. And then he finds that the camel is tied to the tree by its reigns, so he takes it by the reigns and says out of extreme joy, ‘O Allaah you are my servant and I am your Lord.’ [Muslim]. This word here is a word of kufr since he claimed Lordship (rububiyyah) for himself and claimed Allaah is a servant. However, he did not actually intend this, but he was made to err on account of his great excitement and joy, and as the Prophet – may prayers and peace be upon him – said, ‘Allaah will not take him to account’.
NS
03/10/04 at 06:20:16
MIT

Re: Please Forgive Me!
Maliha
03/10/04 at 06:45:57
[slm] outside the context of tarbiyya, and literally when the children are young, and keeping in mind that the Rasul [saw] condemned people who are also unduly harsh to their children....how is the "harsh" approach, supposed to work on adults? How can a revert dissassociate with their own family? Can you tell someone now that you are Muslim you should back off any relations you have, because your dear ones are all kuffar? I had a Muslim sister, who would pray at home and her own parents and sisters would give her such a hard time. Mashaallah she persevered beautifully and now she is married and her family is really supportive. Because they are non Muslim should she have simply cut off ties with them? How far do we stretch this concept? I have very close relatives that are non practiscing. What do I tell them? I am too pure to be around you? How am I supposed to influence them? Why did the Rasul [saw] leave the cave of Hira to go amongst his family, his community, and keep "associating w/ "kuffar"". Do you know that even amidst the persecution in Makkah, some Kuffar would still keep their belongings with the Rasul [saw] for safekeeping? Should he have said "if you are not interested in Islam, then forget about it!" What about my neighbors? Am I not supposed to be kind to them? I visit them and I allow them inside my home, and they have *not* expressed interest in Islam...What about all those amazing people I know working for causes of Justice, organizing demonstrations, standing up for the rights of the poor...doing things that even Muslims don't show much interest in? Should I "cut" them off becuz they are disbelievers? There is a beautiful story of Prophet Ibraheem (AS) who would not eat until he shared his plate with someone. So he walked and found a man, whom he invited to his home. The man, before eating invoked the "idols" name. Prophet Ibraheem was so disturbed he kicked him out of his house for being a Mushrik. He immediately got a revelation to the effect that "I have fed this man for 39 years despite his shirk to me, and you couldn't even share with him a meal?" Prophet Ibraheem immediately repented and called the man back...the man on hearing that, became a Muslim. Subhana Allah. Being Muslim is not an "exclusive" club that makes us too holy to deal justly, kindly, and mercifully with the whole world. Islam is a religion sent to humanity, Muslims are supposed to make a difference in everyone's life whether Non Muslim, Muslim, practicing, non practicing...the aim is not necessary "reversion"..aren't we supposed to be Merciful, simply for Mercy's sake? how else are we supposed to be vicergerents? What does that term in the fullness of its meaning? I shudder to reflect even for a moment to imagine the Rasul [saw] being anything other Merciful to even his own enemies. I shudder to think that Islam may not have reached me, because of the exclusiveness of my predecessors... sigh...I pray for constant Hidaya from Allah, may He show us what the true meaning of submission in all the beauty of this term entails (Amin). Wa Allahu Ta'ala A'lam. [wlm]

Re: Please Forgive Me!
timbuktu
03/10/04 at 07:07:59
[slm] masha`Allah, we are so blessed. i must thank you all for clarifying a lot. It would be difficult to single out one person for the illumination on this I have received. so thank you all. :) I think many things have been cleared up. [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=madrasa;num=1078718923;start=20#25 date=03/10/04 at 06:45:57] outside the context of tarbiyya, and literally when the children are young, and keeping in mind that the Rasul [saw] condemned people who are also unduly harsh to their children....how is the "harsh" approach, supposed to work on adults?[/quote] I cannot give specific examples here, but there are different types of people. Some respond to authority, some respond to friendliness. The Quran sometimes talks of Hell as the punishment, and sometimes it talks of Paradise. Also the same person may respond differently ay different times, and to different people. Telling some people that their actions (or lack thereof) may sometimes make them see the light. but I agree that a soft approach is better most of the time, otherwise people are turned off. and I think sis amkamb has said she uses the soft approach, she just turns away if the people are not interested in Islam. I think she has a right, and maybe some day she will be able to develop that thing whereby she hates shirk from the inside, but continues to give dawah even when they are not interested. The environment is a very important factor. I was raised as a very strict monotheist, but when in East Pakistan, I used to pass by a Buddhist Temple every day. One day, I don't know what came over me, but I clasped my hands together like the others. I did tauba afterwards, but why did I do it in the first place, that I am still unable to figure out. There is not much to worry about - provided we purify our niyyah; if we prepare ourselves for dawah before embarking on it; if we control ourselves; and above all seek Allah's guidance and help before doing dawah.
03/10/04 at 07:18:59
timbuktu

Re: Please Forgive Me!
sohuman
03/10/04 at 09:41:57
[quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=madrasa;num=1078718923;start=10#15 date=03/09/04 at 14:44:11] Also sohuman and others be *very* careful about taking hadiths out of context. I really can't stress that enuff. It is leading to many misunderstandings and conflicts with the very objectives of the Shariah. [/quote] I am surprised Sister Nur that you didn't get the point of this hadith.  You have read the worst into it and perhaps you think I'm all for statue bashing and destruction of pictures. I don't think the hadith is out of context at all.  Why obliterate an image or pic?  Have you thought why our prophet  [saw] told us to do that?  In case you don't get it, here is the ansa: Because people tend to worship pictures and images. So if any of you have any doubt as to whether that sister is worshipping that pic of Eesa (alayhisalam), hope that hadith is clearing it up!  As far as I see it, that is openly worshipping Eesa (alayhisalam).   If I see anyone do that, I know for sure what is going to happen to that person.  But I won't mention what.  Hope you all get the picture.   ::)

Re: Please Forgive Me!
humble_muslim
03/10/04 at 10:00:17
AA For the first time, I'm in almost 100% agreement with Nur on this one!  Just one thing sis : don't take Qaradawi's book as the absolute gospel.  I mean I love the guy's book and his style, but there ARE different opinions (in some cases majority opinions) on some of his statements about pictures, music, movies.  This board is not the place to discuss them, however. Not only can I not be harsh myself, I get turned away from overharshness.  That's why I no longer browse islam-qa.com : far too harsh.  And I gave up qss.org the very first time I looked at it.  I got the impression from them that it's almost impossible to practice Islam while living in this world.  When I give dawah to both muslims and non-muslims, I ALWAYS use a gentle approach, except when the people turn agressive (like an ignorant Christian who once tried to prove that Islam is still full of paganism).  And as far as I'm concerned, guidance is from Allah - it's NOT my job to get people to change, just to give them the message.   Mixing with non-believers : my Palestinian friend and I work in the same company.  He is much more outgoing and open with his non-believing colleagues than I am.  And guess what?  He does much more dawah than me on this account.  There's a message in this somewhere.  And remember, the Prophet(SAW) did not leave or disasociate himself from Abu Talib until he was on his death bed. SoHuman, I think we should be very careful about what we say, we will be called to account by Allah SWT on the day of judgement fot everything we say.  To accuse someone of shirk for having a picture of Jesus does not sound correct.  What if you are wrong on this point, SoHuman?  Then you've committed a major sin by accusing someone of kufr.
NS

Re: Please Forgive Me!
amkamb
03/10/04 at 10:29:08
[quote author=timbuktu link=board=madrasa;num=1078718923;start=20#23 date=03/10/04 at 00:13:44] But sis amkamb, how will dawah be conducted if there is no association witht them. and many reverts have non-muslim relatives. The prophet [saw] asked his wife to deal kindly with her relatives. [/quote] When I invited my Christian friends to Islam, that was dawah.  I engaged in many discussions with them.  All pretty friendly.  In a kind manner.....and also through my example.  But they flatly refused to hear about the message of Islam.  They firmly told me that they were firm in their beliefs.  And what were their beliefs?  They believed Jesus was God.  They believed Jesus died for their sins.  And they believed God is a loving God who will not punish his people to hell.  They even believed that it was fine if I became muslim.  They believed Jesus would still accept me and forgive me.   They are very kind people.  Very loving.  I do not hate them, but I do despise their beliefs.  I hate their beliefs.  In the end, I wrote a letter to them saying:  "Lakum deenookum wa leeya deen."  And I told them I could no longer visit them. Till today, they still do not understand the reason why.  And it is no use for me to explain anything to them because it is apparent to me that Allah has cast a veil over their minds and hearts, so no matter what you do or say, they will not understand.  So I leave them alone with their religion.  A religion that I know will take me to the Fire.  I think about the safety of my own soul! Now....again as with the other issue, it is automatically assumed that I have been unkind and harsh.  Perhaps you think it is because of my harshness that these people have turned away from Islam?   I have not been harsh.  I have not been unkind.  Although I do not visit them, I have told them they could visit me if they wanted to.  And I still do keep in touch with them.  I am still kind to them.   Why is it assumed that when you do dawah you are unkind and harsh? One thing I could tell you from their own words after the many discussions we had.......they said they never saw so much sincerity in a person in their own religion as much as they saw in me. Now you tell me if that sounds like I was unkind to them?   It was not easy for me to make the choice of leaving them at all.  I had to evalutate my motivations.  If I were to continue to visit them despite their rejection of Islam, that would mean I was going there because I liked their company.  I really liked being with them.   But here, if I had continued with my association with them, then that would have meant I was obeying my own desires.  And that is a form of shirk.  Frankly speaking, committing shirk really terrifies me.  I loathe every form of shirk, and there are many kinds.  Some even hidden, and that is a real cause for worry.  I know that shirk is the only thing that Allah will not forgive.  Hence, I think about the motivations for each of my actions and ask the question:  Am I doing this for the sake of Allah, or for something else? I will certainly tell every muslim not to associate with disbelievers.   In the case of relatives however, that is a completely different story.  It is forbidden for us to break off ties of kinship. Although my parents and in-laws are disbelievers, I maintain my ties with them.  We take the trouble to call them, write to them, be in touch with them, visit them and also stay with them.  I am very kind to my parents and in-laws and treat them with greatest respect.  All this for the sake of Allah.   As for the neighbours, again we are to treat them with kindness.  For in Islam, your neighbour has a right over you. Relatives and neighbours are the two classes of people that we have to associate with even if they are disbelievers.  And that is a command from Allah. But what about disbelievers who are not your relatives or neighbours?  I was talking about these people.  You do not associate with the disbelievers.  And if they are not interested in Islam, are you to run after them?  Whoever Allah guides none can misguide, and whoever Allah leaves astray none can guide.  Leave them alone to believe what they want.  If it is Allah's will, if Allah sees any good in them at all, He will surely provide a way and guide them to the Light.   But again, if you do not associate with the disbelievers, that does not mean you should not be kind to them!   We are to show kindness to all.....whether believers or disbelievers.  But as far as association is concerned, I'd say you would be wise to stick to the believers.

Re: Please Forgive Me!
MIT
03/10/04 at 12:20:55
[quote author=SoHuman link=board=madrasa;num=1078718923;start=20#27 date=03/10/04 at 09:41:57] I am surprised Sister Nur that you didn't get the point of this hadith.  You have read the worst into it and perhaps you think I'm all for statue bashing and destruction of pictures.[/quote] as-salaamu alaikum Well i definitely am all for statue bashing and destruction of pictures, but that shouldn't make one overlook context. I'll give you an example. About two years ago there was an ex-Buddhist Muslim here on this board; he joined around the time that the Taliban destroyed the statues at Bamiyan. At the same time there was vocal support here for what the Taliban were doing - and perhaps that support was a bit too strong and inconsiderate given his background, so he left the board, and from what i remember, apostasised. Allah guides whom He Wills and leaves to stray whom He Wills. But that doesn't mean we're not responsible for our actions. I sometimes wonder whether the situation should have been dealt with in a different way and perhaps it wouldn't have ended up as it did. Allahu a'lam. I also agree with what NAL & THM said in their posts (though i do quite like islam-qa.com) At the same time, i am surprised at the insistence of sisters SoHuman and amkamb with statements such as "If I see anyone do that, I know for sure what is going to happen to that person" and "it is apparent to me that Allah has cast a veil over their minds and hearts." What makes you so sure? The Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam spoke about a man who does good deeds till between him and Paradise there is nothing but the length of an arm, and then what is written takes over, and He does the deeds of the people of the fire and ends  up in the fire. And likewise a man does the deeds of the people of the fire until there is nothing between him and entering the Fire except an arm's length, but what is written takes over, and He does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters Paradise. Knowledge of the state of the hearts of people and their final abode rests with Allah.
NS

Re: Please Forgive Me!
humble_muslim
03/10/04 at 13:15:35
AA As far as islam-qa.com, it's probablt the most authentic fiqh site out there.  Wherin lies the problem.  It's a fiqh site - NOT an advice site.The job of a faqih is simply to tell the fiqh, without trying to make it easy to understand and follow.  I have heard people say "you should not be a faqih without being a sufi, and you should not be a sufi without being a faqih", on account that one is too harsh and the other too lenient.
NS
03/10/04 at 13:17:03
humble_muslim

Re: Please Forgive Me!
Maliha
03/10/04 at 14:57:18
[slm] bro humblemuslim, don't worry i am not over-glorifying the man. He might say some things that i don't fully agree with, *but* i found the discussion in that book very very relevant to what we are talking about in this context. There are many differences of opinion over certain fiqh issues in Islam, its one thing for us to choose a harder road for ourselves...its different to expect the whole world to do the same, and hold a Muslim to that standard in order to deem him/her as "good". I don't know where you live sis amakamb, that completely shelters you from non Muslims who are non neighbors and non relatives. Where I live in the west, every other person i meet is non Muslim, and not all the Muslims I know are amazing brothers and sisters like you all. So, I hang out with less than perfect Mozlems and I do associate with non Muslims from all walks of life. I know people that will defend Islam to death, who are non Muslims, based on conversations we had...isn't that awesome? I was wondering how it is supposed to work. "Hi, My name is Nur. Do you want to be Muslim? Okay sorry we can't associate anymore". Allah did not forbid us from those who don't kick us out of our homes, or fight us, why do we have to forbid ourselves? And my sticking point, is still how are people to know about our deen, without being turned off from our prostelyzing if they don't get to know us as people first? do you know there was a time when great ulamah had christian and jewish students, learning Islam from them, who never converted??! The spirit of intellectual discussion, debate, learning..the spirit of humanity itself was thriving in Muslim lands, and no one thought twice about it. I feel bad for your Christian friends. I feel bad that you judged their salvation, stamped it, and wrote a letter to them declaring your non association with them. I not surprised they don't understand your action. For I don't either. To me it is a harsh move, no matter how politely sugar coated it is, Wa Allahu Ta'ala A'lam. Islam is easy, beautiful, gentle..Reflecting on the Rasul [saw] makes me weep for he had a way with people that even his enemies could not dare say a negative word about him. If we were to simply *emulate* him, his spirit, we would be in a far better place. anywho, i think i better run for now... [wlm]

Re: Please Forgive Me!
stranger
03/10/04 at 18:08:38
[slm] Didn't the prophet [saw] hire an idolator as a guide during the emigration?  The point is, we live in a world where we cannot isolate ourselves.  We have to interact with people.  So what do people who do not "associate" with unbelievers say?  And as far as I knew, Christians and Jews were believers.  Did the Muslims not interact with them during the days of the prophet?  Who is it that says only the kinship is lawful and the rest we should not "associate" and from where did this "law" come from?  Is their food not lawful for us?  Are their pious women not lawful for us?  Is this not association?  All I know regarding this in the Qur'an is that we are not to take them as patrons over us.  Allahu a3lam, [slm] Edit: http://www.hraic.org/hadith/ibn_ishaq.html Can find proof of the hiring an idolator in ibn ishaq's biography. [slm]
03/10/04 at 18:10:21
stranger

Re: Please Forgive Me!
timbuktu
03/10/04 at 19:04:00
[slm] I apologize if any of you have felt that there was any criticism of your views. I have benefitted greatly from this thread, and thank you all very much for clarifying this issue :) I don't think we are arguing on cross-purposes. All have agreed that a kind and soft approach is best, and in fact sis amkamb has provided details of how she has treated others, and there was no harshnEss involved. I am perhaps alone in saying that sometimes a harsh (or would it be sharp) tone works, but only sometimes. I am all for a soft approach. regarding stopping to visit a particular person or group, it is indeed for the individual da`aiah to decide whether he/ she can continue with that particular person/ group. I get upset quite often, and so am no good at dawah, but every one has to put in his share of dawah. I find nothing wrong with saying "sorry, I cannot visit you any more because my purpose is to make people see that God does not have a son/ daughter/ partner etc., and you are adamant about it." I do agree that we cannot decide who is going to heaven or hell. We can say that a person's beliefs or actions are condemned by Allah (swt) or the prophet [saw], and if Allah does not have mercy and reclaim him/ her, that person will end up in hell, it is always better to avoid specific takfir, and to stick to general terms. Sometimes, though, if you tell a person that if he does not desist, he will go to hell, then he does listen. It is difficult to judge, though when that will happen. Regarding the case of the ex-Buddhist revert who probably apostasized. Does it not show that there was some shirk in the heart? I am reminded of the time when the Qibla was first set to be Jerusalem, and then Mecca. What was the hikmah in this. Scholars have argued that by setting it first to Jerusalem those Arabs who were racists an thought of Islam as a way of establishing Arabism were singled out so as to purify the Ummah of such elements, and then by setting it to Mecca, those ex-Jews and ex-Christians whose apparent affinity for Islam was only superficial, wer exposed. This requires more thinking. Do we need people with a nominal attachment, of whom most of us are, or do we need to aim for Muslims who understand the basics and are committed? sis Sohuman wrote: [quote]Why obliterate an image or pic?  Have you thought why our prophet   told us to do that?  In case you don't get it, here is the ansa: Because people tend to worship pictures and images. [/quote] I have already related my story with the statue of Buddha. I had my father's picture on the wall, as well as the pictures of my father-in-law abnd his pirs. Then I started noticing that the painted eyes showed signs of life. I checked, and the eyes moved at times. Now, I am a very down to earth type of person. I investigated further and concluded that this was jinn activity. I removed the pics and stored them in the basement. as for movies and TV, I would come home and drop tired onto the sofa, and the TV would be on. It occurred to me that this way I was seeing a lot of non-muharram faces, and it wasn't doing much good to me, but I was so tired, the sofa was where I would drop, and there was no way to stop my family from watching TV (me being a soft person). So I prayed to Allah, and pretty soon I developed an eye condition when watching TV became so painful I had to get up. A type of catarct in both eyes. Well, I am grateful to Allah for that as well.
03/10/04 at 23:21:37
timbuktu

Re: Please Forgive Me!
amkamb
03/10/04 at 22:05:13
[quote author=timbuktu link=board=madrasa;num=1078718923;start=30#34 date=03/10/04 at 19:04:00] I do agree that we cannot decide who is going to heaven or hell. We can say that a person's beliefs or actions are condemned by Allah (swt) or the prophet [saw], and if Allah does not have mercy and reclaim him/ her, that person will end up in hell, it is always better to avoid specific takfir, and to stick to general terms. Sometimes, though, if you tell a person that if he does not desist, he will go to hell, then he does listen.[/quote] Alhamdullilah!  Br. timbuktu, may Allah subhanu wa ta'ala reward you abundantly for correcting ME!  I agree wholeheartedly that it is best to stick to general terms and not to speak of any specific individual.  I realize I have made a terrible mistake talking about the sister in that sense.  I guess I never would have spoken in that way had I not been angry and lost my temper.  But the fact is that I did speak in specific terms.  And that is very dangerous.  I do acknowledge my slip and I ask all of you to forgive me for doing so. Istaghfirullah! By the way, I just spoke to the sister on the phone just a moment ago.  I asked her why she put up pictures of God on the wall.  And she says......for decoration.  She maintains she is not worshipping the pictures.  And goes on to say she sees nothing wrong with people hanging pictures of idols on the wall.  She says that is what we think God looks like.  Furthermore she says angels were created to protect us no matter what.   Also discovered she believed that Jesus was son of God.  Jesus, Mary and God are all "royalty" she said.  She also says Adam and Eve were responsible for sin in this world.  And that the gates of Hell were opened when they ate the forbidden fruit. Actually she gave me a lecture telling me this was all common sense. Next, when I told her what the Qur'an had to say........she tells me there are some things in the Qur'an she does not agree with. Could tell you more but I think this is more than sufficient to help us understand where she is coming from.

Re: Please Forgive Me!
amkamb
03/10/04 at 22:23:31
[quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=madrasa;num=1078718923;start=30#32 date=03/10/04 at 14:57:18] I don't know where you live sis amakamb, that completely shelters you from non Muslims who are non neighbors and non relatives. Where I live in the west, every other person i meet is non Muslim, and not all the Muslims I know are amazing brothers and sisters like you all. [/quote] [slm], Amazing?  I am amazing?! Why the sarcasm sis Nur?   I live in the west just like you do.  If you wish to hang around non-muslims, that is your choice.  Why criticize me if I choose not to hang around the disbelievers? And before you tell muslims to associate with the disbelievers (for the purpose of dawah?), please read the Qur'an and see what Allah has to say about it! In my opinion, you do not need to associate with the disbelievers in order to do dawah!   When you go out wearing your hijab, that is dawah. When you see evil and speak out against it, that is dawah. When you lower your gaze, that is dawah. When you refuse to eat pork or consume alcohol, that is dawah. When you turn away from gossip and slander, that is dawah. When you refuse to shake hands with men, that is dawah. When you obey your husband, that is dawah. When you uphold ties of kinship, that is dawah. The example of our prophet  [saw] is indeed the best dawah. Follow his example and you won't go wrong.

Re: Please Forgive Me!
al-ajnabia
03/10/04 at 22:36:16
[slm] There are a lot of people who say that they dont agree with everything in the quran wheter they are recent converts or were born into muslim families.  Some of them are jsut people we know and who dont have a lot of infulence over others and some become teachers and professors at colleges and teach others what they think. I dont know what to do about any of them. When there is just one of them, of the experimenting with a new religion sort, its not a daunting as wehn it is the most common form of islam where a person lives and where these people have the backing of professors and some of them arent even muslim. Then they can dominate the "muslim" organizations of a comunity and it becomes a real disaster. I think this dabbling form of "Islam" is the work of the devil, but the devil is tricky.  In dealing with this kind of overwealming kind of problem or just when the problem is in one individual, it is not a good idea to do anything unislamic about it.  I'm not saying anyone does, but I can say it is tempting. And these people when they are the educated sort, it often seems like they can twist anything you say to support whatever wrong they are doing, and not all among them are willfully evil, so then it gets really complicated.   But there are some who lead people to this who are very opposed to true islam,they want it to be corrupted so that they can have a libertarian life, but they dont want anyone to have the freedom to behave and obey Allah. They even hurt their own children for being true muslims while they teach their "islam" to others and praise these mixed people and the dabblers. I remember hearing of people who had quit speaking about islam to anyone they didnt know because of people like this, because they would take the islam of the believer and twist it to suport bringing people into somehting that isnt islam.  I've found myself having to stop talking to people and I no longer try to correct some people because of this. I found that my corrections were causeing them to do research but not for the right answer, but for a way to misconstrue. To a muslim, a real muslim, of certain backgrounds, the rough aproach, the plain reaction aproach, is very reasuring, its like a voice from the old home, but to this sort of "muslim" that I have been discribing, it can be used to their own purposes, that is they can point ot someone telling it like it is, and say that they area n "extreemist" and this helps them bring people to accept the lies they are pushing on them. I'm rambling again and I think I've abruplty come to the end of this line of thought. Time to get my machete out and go back to hacking through to the next trail.

Re: Please Forgive Me!
timbuktu
03/10/04 at 23:25:19
[slm] [quote author=amkamb link=board=madrasa;num=1078718923;start=30#36 date=03/10/04 at 22:23:31]Amazing?  I am amazing?! Why the sarcasm sis Nur?  [/quote] sis amkamb, please don't take offense when someone doesn't mean it. sis Nur_al_Layl is not one who uses sarcasm at all. and, in future, even if someone means it, it is better to ignore sarcasm. thanks and sis al-ajnabia, your post is very relevant. It all boils down to judgement. I see this trend increasing and it frightens me.
03/10/04 at 23:40:04
timbuktu

Re: Please Forgive Me!
UmmWafi
03/11/04 at 02:00:48
[slm] Maybe I am dense but I think I am missing some points here.  This thread started off as an apology thread and Alhamdulillah, the initial responses were very good reflection of the spirit of brotherhood we have here.  What I perhaps don't understand is, why is this thread thriving beyond that ? PS I actually do not require an answer for my question above... Wassalam

Re: Please Forgive Me!
Nomi
03/11/04 at 02:21:29
[slm] [quote author=timbuktu link=board=madrasa;num=1078718923;start=30#38 date=03/10/00 at 23:25:19] sis amkamb, please don't take offense when someone doesn't mean it. sis Nur_al_Layl is not one who uses sarcasm at all. [/quote] sis Nur, sis amkamb (what does that mean btw?), and others... if you feel like upper-cutting anyone then i'm here to be used as a punching bag (i'm experienced!!). So take me for others :) And i hope this doesn't turn out like the other thread. I personally feel that its good that ppl like me, Arshad, amkamb, azizah :P and hyper visit this board, reason being... a balance should be there. I see these folks with some qualities of Hazrat Omer (radiAllahu Anhu), which is good. [slm] and next time you post... keep a bebzi beside you []

Re: Please Forgive Me!
Maliha
03/11/04 at 09:33:29
[slm] sigh...sorry for my use of sarcasm..how can an apology thread disintegrate into more drama?  ::) ahh well, i guess we each have our unique understanding of what this deen requires. All we can do is pray for hidaya and Mercy for our souls. (amin). Sis in struggle, :-) [wlm]

Re: Please Forgive Me!
humble_muslim
03/11/04 at 09:37:23
AA Timbuktu : "Regarding the case of the ex-Buddhist revert who probably apostasized. Does it not show that there was some shirk in the heart? I am reminded of the time when the Qibla was first set to be Jerusalem, and then Mecca. What was the hikmah in this. Scholars have argued that by setting it first to Jerusalem those Arabs who were racists an thought of Islam as a way of establishing Arabism were singled out so as to purify the Ummah of such elements, and then by setting it to Mecca, those ex-Jews and ex-Christians whose apparent affinity for Islam was only superficial, wer exposed." Br Timbuktu, I don't think you were around when the ex-Buddhist (I think his name was David) was around on this board.  I can assure you that what he did was REALLY painful to all of us.  I think it's unfair of you to judge him like you have.  He had been muslim for just a few weeks; one reason he was getting more into Islam was the kindness he encounterted on this board (I remember him posting some questions which were replied to in a very nice manner, and his response - "I love you guys!").  And ironically, it was the comments on this board about the Buddhist statues which made him leave Islam - he got the impression that Islam was too intolerant.  That was really painful - Panjul has more details if she wants to add to this.  Now he had been a muslims just a few weeks - how can we expect him to be an awliya of Allah in such a short time?  This guy's affinity for Islam was NOT superficial, as far as I could tell.  It's easy for people born into Islam to start criticizing converts having a hard time: we haven't been thru what Eleanor, Kathy and some of the other converts here have been thru.
NS

Re: Please Forgive Me!
timbuktu
03/11/04 at 10:53:16
[slm] [quote author=The humble muslim link=board=madrasa;num=1078718923;start=40#42 date=03/11/04 at 09:37:23]AA Timbuktu : "Regarding the case of the ex-Buddhist revert who probably apostasized. Does it not show that there was some shirk in the heart? I am reminded of the time when the Qibla was first set to be Jerusalem, and then Mecca. What was the hikmah in this. Scholars have argued that by setting it first to Jerusalem those Arabs who were racists an thought of Islam as a way of establishing Arabism were singled out so as to purify the Ummah of such elements, and then by setting it to Mecca, those ex-Jews and ex-Christians whose apparent affinity for Islam was only superficial, wer exposed." Br Timbuktu, I don't think you were around when the ex-Buddhist (I think his name was David) was around on this board.  I can assure you that what he did was REALLY painful to all of us.  I think it's unfair of you to judge him like you have.  He had been muslim for just a few weeks; one reason he was getting more into Islam was the kindness he encounterted on this board (I remember him posting some questions which were replied to in a very nice manner, and his response - "I love you guys!").  And ironically, it was the comments on this board about the Buddhist statues which made him leave Islam - he got the impression that Islam was too intolerant.  That was really painful - Panjul has more details if she wants to add to this.  Now he had been a muslims just a few weeks - how can we expect him to be an awliya of Allah in such a short time?  This guy's affinity for Islam was NOT superficial, as far as I could tell.  It's easy for people born into Islam to start criticizing converts having a hard time: we haven't been thru what Eleanor, Kathy and some of the other converts here have been thru.[/quote] I am very, very sorry if you think that my attitude is wrong. I really do not know how to express the problem I am having in understanding this. I am continuing here because to me it looks that the apology issue is finished, and we have gone on to discuss a deeper issue. Please understand that I do not mind whatever you say, and if something i say is hurtful, please say so openly. I will apologise. Now please also understand that it also pains me very much when a muslim, born or revert, apostacises. I want to avoid that situation, particularly that nothing I say or do should lead to it. I do not know what was said about the statues that was painful to David, but please do tell me what is the very basic of Islam? When makes (or when should) a person declare shahada? I am now 58 years old, and I have lived in diverse (although always urban) places. I am beginning to see something I did not know existed. I had earlier thought that people become muslims for 1) conviction, or for 2) some worldly benefit. sister amkamb is a fine example of the first. many marrying a muslim or muslimah are doing this for the second reason. Now I have come across instances when people have accepted Islam out of sincerity, but they have accepted only part of Islam, and they insist that this is the Islam they will propagate. Many (perhaps most) born Muslims are also in this partial-Islam category. I do not exclude myself. That is why when I look at reverts like amkamb, my heart is lifted, and I get the strength to do that bit more. But what are Muslims and Islam gaining from such conversions which are partial? I ask because on another site I am having the same problem. There is this born muslim brother who accepts only those Hadeeth that he likes. Those that he is unable to fit into his worldview, he rejects as dhaeef - I mean his own classification. and he is quite vocal, and the non-muslims lap it up as the Islam they like. There is a born muslimah whose Kurd family escaped the persecution of Saddam to Italy, where she became a proud European, and she insists that the Quran contains passages that are not Divine, and must be expunged. She cannot read Arabic, but again her islam is very much liked on that board by the non-muslims. Then there is this american muslimah who is very learned, (she is a PhD), and has become muslim after study and the kindness and freedom of Qatari society. Now she also cannot read arabic, and is turned off by Hadith, or the tafsir of the scholars. In her view islam is a private matter between Allah and the muslim - no laws of Islam, no dress code, no nothing. Islam - free at last from the culture of the prophet's [saw] time. Whatever you do not like in Islam, you can discard as specific to the Arabs of the prophet's time. Her Islam is also very much liked by the non-muslims. are we to distort islam so that the non-muslims like it? or am i wrong in thinking that what these people are presenting is a distortion? Let us look at the examples before us. At Mecca, the people understood what the kalima meant. They either accepted or rejected it; no munafiqeen there. At Medina, some people professed Islam because of the social benefits, and I have quoted somewhere that Allah (swt) asks us to test those who profess Islam before accepting them. and we know there were people who converted in the morning, only to apostacise in the evening, so that they could say: "we have checked Islam, and it is not a true religion." Then if you are aware of the evolution of different sects in Islam with some bizarre beliefs when Islam came into contact with Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc., you will see that this is an interesting study in itself. I read a lot about it, but do not remember specific details. In the Ottoman Empire there were so many sects with mixtures of Christianity, islam and Judaism in different proportions that the mind boggles. and of course you know Sikhism is born of Islam+Hinduism. So, if someone asks you that he wants to say the shahada, would you jump at it, or would you say: brother, hold on a minute, are you sure you understand what islam stands for. and would you not explain that Allah has no partners, no son or daughter or spouse, etc. and the attributes of Allah. I am inclined to the latter, but of course i would be gentle about it. It disturbs me very much what sister amkamb has described about that revert sister who considers Jesus as son of God, and who does not agree with portions of the Quran. I see an increasing number of semi-muslims, who would be propagating their distortion as Islam, and many will have later to be declared as non-muslims, as the Nation of Islam was, or as the Bahai or Qadianis were, or as the Druze or the Nusairi are. I apologize again if any thing I have said is wrong or a transgression. Please point out the flaws in my thinking, so that I can correct myself. Thanks
NS
03/12/04 at 01:15:14
timbuktu

Re: Please Forgive Me!
humble_muslim
03/11/04 at 11:20:49
AA Br. Timbuktu, I think we're talking about two different things here that are connected.  Many people accept Islam because they see the shining light of Islam.  At this stage, they will not know every single thing about Islam.  Now it must be said that there are certain aspects of Islam which are difficult to understand - even for born muslims.  How much harder are these things to understand for reverts?  I'm not talking about pure shirk - I agree with you there that no-one should take shahadah without fully understanding tawheed, and no-one should take shahdah without fully accepting the authenticity of the Quran. So what happens to these new muslims?  If they are treated correctly - which means to gently imbube the iman inside them, so that they get to the point where obedience of Allah and His messenger(SAW) becomes paramount to them, then when they hit these issues - their iman is ready for it.  If we start taking every ayat and hadith that exists and try to "stuff it down their throats", this may lead to the kind of reaction you're talking about, where people start only taking those parts of the deen which suits them, happens. I mean look at the facts - the sahaba, who had the Prophet(SAW) amongst them, were made to wait 13 years before a lot of difficult commandments came to them.  And we seem to expect reverts who have little or no contact with  practising muslims to become perfect within 13 days. Kathy, Eleanor, Panjul, would like to get your feedback on this. I think it's an i,mportant issue we really need to sit down and talk about.  I'm not taking any of this perosnally, and I hope you don't either Uncle Tim.
NS

Re: Please Forgive Me!
se7en
03/11/04 at 16:03:03
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah, I don't mean to add fuel to the fire but I think that it is important that we base our behavior on proper understanding.  takfeer is an incredibly serious thing. Check out Sh. Abu Ammar Yasir Qadhi's lecture entitled "A Critical Analysis of Shirk"  http://www.islamicawakening.com/playaudio.php?audioID=50 I think it's very beneficial, alhamdulillah, and goes into a lot of depth about the definition of shirk and different manifestations of it.  I would particularly call your attention to the part on pronouncing takfeer on people. also, I recently read a short excerpt by shaykh ibn uthaymeen from his majmoo al fatawa that I think is really relevant to the discussion here:  http://muttaqun.com/takfeer.html He mentions two conditions necessary for a person to even fall into the definition of one who has engaged in shirk.  One of these conditions is that it is something done consciously, willfully and with completely knowledge about the implications of the action. I think these resources would really be a call for introspection along with the Q&A bro MIT posted above.   wasalaamu alaykum
03/11/04 at 16:26:16
se7en

Re: Please Forgive Me!
sohuman
03/11/04 at 20:13:37
[quote author=timbuktu link=board=madrasa;num=1078718923;start=40#43 date=03/11/04 at 10:53:16] I apologize again if any thing I have said is wrong or a transgression. Please point out the flaws in my thinking, so that I can correct myself. [/quote] [slm], Brother. Timbuktu, I really do not think you have said anything wrong.   8) Actually I think you are the only one besides me who has expressed horror and disgust at the sista's hanging pic of Eesa (as).   :o Others (sorry for being blunt) have been pretty much unaffected by the crazy thing that sister is doing.  One of you even saying she may not be worshipping the pic.  Making excuses?  For something which is clearly wrong?  The worstest of things you can do is hang a pic of any idol on the wall!  And also say stuff like....well we do not know what is in the hearts of people. :-/ Heh heh!  What in the world could be in the heart of people who commit adultery?  Or fornication?  Or deal with drugs and associate with prostitutes?  And none of these things are more serious than associating partners with Allah! As far as I see it when you hang a pic of an idol on the wall.........that is glorifying the thing.  You love the thing so much that you think it should be put on the wall.  No difference between glorifying and worshipping.  And only Allah is worthy of being glorified.   And now we learn that the sista has not let go of her Christian beliefs.  What?  Doesn't even agree with the Qur'an? What is Allah's opinion about people who worship Jesus, the trinity or Mary?  Isn't it declared that paradise is forbidden for such people?  Isn't the wrath of Allah on those who ascribe partners with him? So if Allah's wrath is on those people, why is it that when you guys hear about it you are unaffected?  No big deal, huh?  So what if that sista believes Jesus is son of God?  It does not shock you?  You don't abhor it?  You don't hate it?  Allah hates it.  in fact it is all blasphemy!  But you remain quiet.  And all you can think about is.....we should not offend that sista and turn her away from Islam.  Hey!  She is not practising true Islam!  So what Islam are you talking about?! Very very strange.  and when I talk about the punishment that is in store for such people, I get to hear about takfeer.......as though takfeer is a more terrible crime than associating partners with Allah.  Pounce on me, and turn a blind eye what that sista is doing.  Great! I don't know if I should laugh out loud.  This is so absurd!   ;D But wait a minute.  Lemme drink a bebzi!   []
03/11/04 at 20:24:18
sohuman

Re: Please Forgive Me!
timbuktu
03/11/04 at 20:27:39
[slm] :) sister Sohuman thanks, but please heed my appeal. Do not get so disturbed by this as to go off the board, like some have done in the not too distant past. There is a lot of confusion around in this world, and we need to be very cool-minded to sort it out. and I do think we will come to something we all agree with. Note that brother humble muslim has already said: [quote]I agree with you there that no-one should take shahadah without fully understanding tawheed, and no-one should take shahdah without fully accepting the authenticity of the Quran.[/quote] :) bro humble muslim, and sister se7en, thanks. and I am waiting for sisters Kathy, Eleanor, Panjul, and any others for their input, so that we can understand this issue better.
03/11/04 at 20:53:03
timbuktu

Re: Please Forgive Me!
sohuman
03/11/04 at 20:35:43
[slm], Don't worry brother.  I take everything with a pinch of salt and a little bit of peppa. I am pretty blunt myself.  So I expect some blunt stuff bouncing back on me.   :-/

Re: Please Forgive Me!
Nomi
03/11/04 at 20:54:15
[slm] --timbuktu [quote] There is a lot of confusion around in this world, and we need to be very cool-minded to sort it out. [/quote] That reminds me of Abu_Hamza!! (thats why i copy in some of my IMs to him!!) [quote author=SoHuman link=board=madrasa;num=1078718923;start=40#48 date=03/11/04 at 20:35:43] I am pretty blunt myself.  So I expect some blunt stuff bouncing back on me.   :-/[/quote] Blunt stuff eh sis? Well lets hope that when you confront hyper and/or ME you dont decide to leave the board :P Bebzis for ya'all [] -------------  [] [slm]
03/11/04 at 20:55:32
Nomi

Re: Please Forgive Me!
se7en
03/11/04 at 23:59:45
as salaamu alaykum, subhan'Allah, I think that when people in a discussion seem to be repeating themselves over and over, it is time to move on. I think everyone in this thread finds shirk reprehensible and agrees that it is not permissible for a person to put up depictions of jesus, alayhis salam.  the issue is about the *specific situation* that has been described, and the validity of the claim that the sister is in fact a mushrik.  from the description, some people feel that there is insufficient proof to condemn the sister, given the conditions of takfeer; while others feel that they have a sufficient amount of evidence to do so. let's leave it at that for now.. if someone wants to take on the responsibility of calling someone a kafir, and understands the enormity of doing so, then that is a matter between that person, the accused, and Allah, swt, and He will sort out the matter and make things clear. wasalaamu alaykum
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board A R C H I V E S Individual posts do not necessarily reflect the views of Jannah.org, Islam, or all Muslims. All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the poster and may not be used without consent of the author. The rest © Jannah.Org