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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Jinns vs Science |
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| humble_muslim |
| 03/10/04 at 19:08:57 |
| AA Most of us know about Jinn posesssion, and I'm sure a few of us have witnessed it. For those of you who HAVE witnessed something like this, would you say that what you saw was scincetifcially unexplainable? Or could EVERY instance of Jinn possesion be explained by a spectical scienctist as epilesy or some other such mental condition? Hamayoun |
| NS |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 03/10/04 at 19:27:37 |
| [slm] I've witnessed something I think of as possession. It sometimes seems to me, but maybe I am gulible in that I sometimes think some people did have real love for me once, but it sems like the devil takes them over. but now I think it is just that they never loved me and are part of a drug cartel. They have just been pretending,and what looked like possession was their real self. but It could also be possession. sometimes I think people think they can do a little evil here and there and it wont have a perminant effect on them, i'm not talking about the little things we shouldnt do but real hard core evil where a real other person is physically hurt right away. When I couldnt face how dangerous some people were in my life because they really hated me, I let myself beleive I shouldnt be around them because they had sold their souls and eventhough they still loved me when ever I would be around them the devil would take them over and make them hurt me. But I couldnt tell them this or they would have me locked away, so I acted like I didnt like them, and it wasnt hard, becuase I was really mad that they had sold their souls. does that make sense? |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| UmmWafi |
| 03/11/04 at 01:47:45 |
| [wlm] I witnessed my close cousin being "exorcised" by a mu'allim because she was possessed by a jinn. Not explainable scientifically. Wassalam |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| Maliha |
| 03/11/04 at 09:26:57 |
| [slm] hey we were discussing this issue like two days ago! Subhana Allah. I wondered how much more the knowledge of Jinns would add to fields like psychology and psychiatry. So many people are being diagnosed (mis?) as having schizophrenia, and all these other diseases, but could it be some are actually Jinn related? Did you all see "a beautiful mind?" it was really amazing, but i wondered if those people he saw were actually jinns. Also, what if seeing a Jinn actually sets of a chemical imbalance in the head, in the same way like adrenaline rush. So doctors cure the chemical imbalance but not deal with the actual issue (the way a Muallim does)? i don't know, man possession is all too real. I will never forget my cousin (girl) speaking in an OLD man's voice. creeeeeepppy. if she was in the states, she would have been straight jacketted for overthrowing three strong men when she tried to go down to the ocean....really scary, powerful stuff. but a muallim came, talked the jinn out, read some Quran..and now she is perfect, never had a recurrence again. it will be interesting for a Muslim psych major to do research in this area... Wa Allahu Ta'ala A'alam. [wlm] |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| theOriginal |
| 03/11/04 at 11:45:52 |
| [slm] Yeah I've heard some pretty scary stuff, too (okay bro bulwark, no making fun of my domestic situation here). Okay I have a question...why is it that back home, in the subcontinent, and even Africa, you hear about Jinn encounters ALL THE TIME. Everyone has a jinn story. But over here...especially in north america, i've heard of hardly any. What's the logic behind that? Wasalaam. |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| Maliha |
| 03/11/04 at 11:55:48 |
| [slm] the difference maybe belief? I have heard variation of Jinn stories here, in terms of seeing one's dead loved one? Or what pschiatrists would term as "hallucinations", and other mental imbalances where people actually see and talk to "invisible" people..if you don't accept they exist, then the only way to "cure" these people is to put them on psychotic drugs and pretty much numbed them down yeah? thats why i think it would be interesting to do research in this area...i mean how sad is it to be stuck in a hospital room, with mad medications, zonked out..when the issue has been misdiagnosed from the beginning? this is fascinating for real..you'd be suprised a lot of people even in the west do believe in "ghosts". But for them, these are visitors from the dead...not other living beings. Wa Allahu A'alam. [wlm] |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| Barr |
| 03/11/04 at 18:16:54 |
| [wlm] warahmatullah :) [quote]So many people are being diagnosed (mis?) as having schizophrenia, and all these other diseases, but could it be some are actually Jinn related? [/quote] What about those who do have epilepsy, schiz, bipolar etc etc etc.. but diagnosed as jinn possessed, by lay people? Hmm, I learnt smt abt this while @ uni... my lecturer was telling me about how you *may* tell a difference. I just don't pay enough attention to remember it now. On another note, my mom used to attend courses on jinns and medications conducted by shuyukh "ghostbusters", and she said that sometimes, certain diseases are correlated by jinns "disturbances". [quote]But over here...especially in north america, i've heard of hardly any. What's the logic behind that? [/quote] Hmm.. don't they have countless of stuff on ghosts, vampires, monsters, demons et al? Except that we catergorise them as jinns, and for them, its as wot sis Maliha said. OK, this didn't happen in North America... but, I heard of a Malaysian sister being possessed by a jinn in England. The jinn's name is John. She evej spoke with a deep male voice, with and English accent! Creeepy.. or wot?! And I'm like.. hmm... do jinns speak in accents too? I mean, ever encountered a jinn in deepest Pakistan or Indonesia who speak the 'ol Queen's language? Allahua'lam :) P.S. This thread reminds me of Poltergeist... where the little girl spoke with a deep scary demony male voice. P.P.S I've watched documentaries where scientists have done experiments and they showed a change in energy/ heat level, whenever there are occurances happening in a house or during a seance etc. They attribute this to the presence of "ghosts" et al. |
| 03/11/04 at 18:20:23 |
| Barr |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| theOriginal |
| 03/11/04 at 18:49:36 |
| [slm] lol sis Barr...ahahhaa.... ghostbuster shayukh (LOL)...my cousin (i hope he never reads this) was thought to be posessed by his parents...he was just a rotten teeanager, but his parents were pretty scared, so they took him to a ghostbuster sheikh (hahaha...okay it's still funny) and the poor kid witnessed these real exorcisms taking place. well...the thing was, his parents told the sheikh in detail what was happening, and i'm pretty sure the sheikh sympathized but could tell right away that he wasn't posessed...so he employed a different strategy, and made Hamza sit with him during his day's work (couple of hours). I've never seen a 16 year old so scared EVER. He came back and didn't talk for months. His grades picked up, he became much more politer. It was like...magic. (get it?! magic!!!) Anyway, he still talks about it sometimes...and the stuff he saw sounds pretty scary. Wasalaam. |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| Stephanie |
| 03/11/04 at 19:52:08 |
| [slm] It's very interesting to me that this subject should come up now because just the other day a very good friend of mine confided in me that she hears a "voice". This sister is extremely intelligent, logical and sane so I know she must be telling the truth. She told me it started some years back. After seeing the movie the Sixth Sense, she started messing around with a Ouji board for fun. (This was before her reversion). She said something actually took a hold of the board and every since then she's had this "voice". Shortly thereafter, she told her mom and underwent all kinds of psychiatric therapy and medications etc. All the while maintaining perfect grades and leading a somewhat normal life. The meds did no good and to this day she still has the "voice" but has learned to block it out. She didn't go into details about what it said but that it was pretty bad. Now that she is a muslim she believes it to be a jinn. She has heard that there is some way that you can "excorcise" the jinn by saying a certain thing in a certain order, but she has yet to find out what. I advised that she talk to our local shayk but apparently her husband has issues with some of his statements made in Khutba(he doesn't agree etc.) and she doesn't want to go behind his back. (Another issue entirely). Can anyone offer any more info on this? I'm fairly concerned after hearing this. As far as the ouji board thing goes how would this fit into islam? I don't think this fits into the folds of Islam but maybe she could have opened herself up to jinn possesion or something. [wlm] :-) |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| timbuktu |
| 03/11/04 at 20:00:07 |
| [slm] I will insha`Allah later post some references to ayahs that are to be recited in such cases. These are from AHadeeth related in Tibrani. There are people I know (they are even friends) who exorcise jinns, and they are successful, but i don't agree with some of their practices. I think they use methods that are forbidden. There are many of our practices today that open us up to jinn possession, but i will talk about that much later, if i can put together what i know. |
| 03/11/04 at 20:02:25 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| Kathy |
| 03/12/04 at 08:36:16 |
| [slm] I thought Humans can't see jinns, only angels. |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| timbuktu |
| 03/12/04 at 09:24:50 |
| [quote author=Kathy link=board=bebzi;num=1078963738;start=10#10 date=03/12/04 at 08:36:16] I thought Humans can't see jinns, only angels.[/quote] Jinns can change shape. They can appear as humans. We children saw one who resided in a room at my khala's house. My mother has had experience of them, although I don't recall she telling us of any sightings. the ayahs to be said are: first the ta3awwuz then the following: surah al-Fatiha: 1-7 al-Baqara: 1-5 al-Baqara: 63 al-Baqara: 255-257 al-Baqara: 284-286 a3ali-imraan: 18 al-a3araaf: 54-56 bani Israel: 110-111 al-muminoon: 115-118 as-swaffaat: 1-10 ar-Rehmaan: 33-35 al-Hashr: 21-24 al-Jinn: 1-4 surah al-kafiroon surah al-Ikhlaas surah al-Falaq surah an-Naas after that, blow on the patient, or if the patient is not in front of you, then think of him/ her, and blow. Also onto a bottle containing water, and the patient should drink that water. make the patient read the Quraan, or listen to it. Thers is more, but this is enough for the time being. The more Quran is read in the house, and the more one is closer to the deen, the more difficult it is for the jinn to come near you. and of course, ayatul-kursi. There is a Hadith to that effect too. |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| rkhan |
| 03/13/04 at 00:59:44 |
| [slm] Guess everyone knows the story of Big Fish and Little Fish. They’re swimming in the sea when suddenly Little Fish spots this yummy-looking morsel right ahead. She’s about to make a grab for it when Big Fish stops her. You don’t know, but this morsel has a hook viz connected to a fishing line viz held by a man who’s standing on the shore, who’ll reel you in, take you to his place put you in a smoking hot pan and have you for dinner. Little Fish goes??? Hook, lije, shore, hot pan??? Never heard of the stuff. When Big Fish moves off, Little Fish decides to investigate on her own. She swims circles around the morsel, goes up to the surface. Nothing. Big Fish has got it wrong, she concludes. Opens her little mouth wide and takes the morsel in. What does she find? There is a hook…and all the rest… Big Fish could never scientifically prove it and Little Fish had a limited scope and vision. This parable is usually used in the context of the Hereafter, but it equally applies to all matters of the Unseen whose knowledge rests with Allaah swt, except that which He has given us in the Qur’an. Jinns are [i] real [/i]. The Qur’an says they’re a creation of “smokeless fire”, who like humans have been made to worship Allaah. Like humans, they can exercise a freedom of will and the wrongdoers among them will be punished. There’s a translation of Ibn Taimiyyah’s essay on the jinn and an account of the exorcist tradition in Islaam by Abu Ameenah Bilaal Philips out here on the net. It has actual interviews with exorcists and a lowdown on the how's and why's of exorcism. Really spooky because it rings soooooooo true. Sorry don’t hv the link…Google helps inshallah. |
| 03/13/04 at 09:36:23 |
| rkhan |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| Stephanie |
| 03/13/04 at 12:51:19 |
| [slm] Thank you so much Timbuktu!! I will pass this info on to my friend inshallah. Can I ask where you found this information? Thanks again. Your sister in islam :-) [wlm] |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| Angelic_Muslim |
| 03/13/04 at 14:13:34 |
| [slm] I have never been "conquered" by a jinn, nor have the people around me... or even heard stories of, I guess we all are closer to the deen. lol Maybe or maybe not.. [wlm] |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| timbuktu |
| 03/13/04 at 21:46:36 |
| [slm] [quote author=shareislam link=board=bebzi;num=1078963738;start=10#13 date=03/13/04 at 12:51:19]Can I ask where you found this information? Thanks again.[/quote] I have read these in many books from my childhood 1. ÍÕä ÍÕíä 2. today many booklets are available with these ayahs. I have one called "Hirz-e-azam" ÍÑÒ ÇÚÙã put together by Syed Shabbir Ahmed and published by Quran Aasaan Tehrik. It relates two AHadeeth and refers to Zawaid masnad Ahmed, Mustadrake Hakim, Sunan Baihaqi, Sunan Darimi, Tibrani This is in two colors, following the translation of the meanings of the Quran they have done in two colors, which makes understanding the words and phrases easier. 3. in fact, many books on masnoon duas include these to be read before sleeping. 4. Those associated with the Tableeghi Jamaat read a booklet called "Manzil" ãäÒá which has these and some more ayahs. Most of these are the minimum Quranic Ayahs taught to children so that they can say their prayers. and their source is Shah Waliullah. 5. The Barelvi sect also reads the same. I do not know of the level of these AHadeeth, but any imaam will be able to tell you to recite these ayahs, with slight additions. From my knowledge of sects, these are universally read by all sects be they Salafi, Hanafi, Shafi3ee, etc. and they are read in all countries. In very severe cases, Surah Jinn is also read beside the patient. Finally, in a house where Surah Baqara is read regularly, Satan does not come. I had made this my habit to read these before going to bed, and thinking of everyone and putting everyone in Allah's care. Also to recite these verses whenever I had some free time, like waiting for a meeting. __________ about the jinn I saw. He was a muslim. From that room we could hear the Quran at times. I saw him and then he disappeared suddenly. |
| 03/13/04 at 21:49:25 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| veiled |
| 03/13/04 at 22:49:18 |
| Jazak Allah khair Brother Timbuktu for taking out time and giving us the above info. |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| rkhan |
| 03/14/04 at 00:14:52 |
| [slm] JUst thought I'd add this: [i] Mansur’s disapproving face appears over me. “Thou shouldst not have killed it…anyhow, not at the time of sunset: for this is the time when the jinns come out from under the ground and often assume the shape of a snake…” I laugh and reply: ‘O Mansur thou dost not really believe these old wives’ tales about jinns in the shape of snakes?’ Of course I believe in jinns. Does not the Book of God mention them? As to the shapes they sometimes appear to us – I don’t know …I have heard that they can assume the strangest and most unexpected of forms…” You may be right Mansur, I think to myself, for , indeed is it farfetched to assume that, apart from the beings which our senses can perceive, there may be some that elude our perceptions? Is it not a kind of intellectual arrogance which makes modern man reject the possibility of life forms other than those which can be observed and measured by him? The existence of jinns, whatever they may be, cannot be proven by scientific means. But neither can science disprove the possible existence of living beings whose biological laws may be so entirely different from our own that our outer senses can establish contact with them only under very exceptional circumstances. Is it not possible that such an occasional crossing of paths between these unknown worlds and ours gives rise tpo strange manifestations which man’s primitive fantasy has interpreted as ghosts, demons and such other ‘supernapural’ apparitions. [/i] -------excerpt from Jinns, The Road to Makkah by Mohd Asad. Awesome awesome book…do read it if you have the time inshallah… |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| timbuktu |
| 03/14/04 at 11:03:14 |
| [slm] just so you are reminded, if you have a very solid belief in Tawheed, if you try to follow the Shar`3ia, if you are as far from bid`3a as possible, and you read the Ayatul Kursi and the last three Surahs mentioned in my list, the Jinns cannot do anything to you. |
| 03/14/04 at 11:06:27 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| Nomi |
| 03/14/04 at 11:27:58 |
| [slm] What uncle Khalid said must be practiced, however, i recall hearing this story about Nabi [saw] going to a group of jinns to do dawah and He [saw] drew a circle and asked Sahaba [radiAllahu Anhum] not to come out of that circle until He [saw] is done with jinns. Like they were the best in deen but still! I might well be wrong though, even that story can be wrong!! Anyone else heard the same (story)?? Also, i think most of the ghost/horror movies are in English so this concept that ghost are only seen/discussed "back home" doesn't seem true! [slm] ~me ps: A jinn sighting, for ppl like me and many of us on the board, is ever so easy. I mean how far is da mirror from you folks? (lol) |
| 03/14/04 at 11:35:41 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Jinns vs Science |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 03/14/04 at 11:35:31 |
| [slm] its interesting that you said wht you did, brother Timbuktu. When I was doing something tha in my case was innovation acording to those who know more details about me than I do it seemed I was bothered a lot. I didnt bring that up when I was talking about some of my medical things, but as I came to understand more about the situation, more things made sense. First of all, when I had wanted to learn to pray, even though I cant well, read my former posts for the why not, the sisters who had taken it upon themself to teach me, taught me to face the wrong direction, and even when I found out enough to know why salat would not be accepted form me, when I longed to pray "just like everyone else" (I know not the right reason, even in private where no one can see) I would come very close to getting up ajd doing it but facing that wrong direction and one time I had to hold myself back even when it was really not the right time for a woman to pray and it was in that direction that I wated to face. But it wasnt a silent calm wanting it was a reaction to a bunch of whispers just below audability. I didnt do it, but i recognised it as the same feeling that made me think I wanted to pray that way before. Here's what I've been thinking: I have noticed that even though I am not in the habit of voicing my prayers that inwardly pretty much constantly I am praying things over and over people and things, but when I stop this to do a prayer that wont be accepted form me, I am taking a break form my prayers that are acceptable. That's I think why the jinn wanted me to ingage in the innovation that even someone who coulndt purify should preform salat that requires purification. And they were so sure that it wouldnt count anyway that they let me pray in the wrong direction. Also recently a woman who hated me died. Is it possible that the jinn who were her companions came to me after her death to make me think she was haunting me for a day? It didnt last long. I just rested in tawheed whenever I noticed it, because there was no one to ask about it, when I did ask I was only lectured that muslims dont beleive in ghosts, but I am sensitive, and even if it wasnt ghosts it was something, I just didnt know what or the islamic explanation , but this thread has helped with that. What about when we dream about the departed, is it the same thing? I dont think so, and I never have anyone departed follow me out of a dream, I only remember what they said or their manner throughout the day, and sense nothing new after the dream. But also somtimes in my day to day life, without effort on my part, except to focus on what is already there and not to seek, if I am thinking of somone I can sometimes get a gimpse of thoughts of theirs. It just happens. like I asked somone for a word for something in Arabic and there were some options and I visualised the object they would send me the word for by email and when the email came and I checked on the word it was that object. No major mistery but we were both thinking of eachother and the same thing and it happened. but is actually feels more connected to sense of smell than sight or speech, like thoughts waft past and sometimes they make sense ans sometimes I just dont pay attention. I can usually tell if someone prays for me too, and they things people have prayed when I have been aware of it are too good in the will of Allah to be carried to me by anything less than pure, and in some of those cases, like a prayer for me to be cured of a delusion, it has worked, and yet I was also aware of the prayer. Well, this is a little disjointed, just thought I'd share. |
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