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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Question about menstruation? |
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| Anonymous |
| 03/15/04 at 12:04:58 |
| Assalam u alaikum sisters, I was wondering if someone could answer a question for me that I've had for some time. When I'm at college I have lessons until 1.30pm, ie I pray Zuhr at that time. Now sometimes you cannot feel whether or not your period has started until you visit the bathroom to do your wudu. At the current time Zuhr prayer starts at about 12:20pm, and when I went to do my wudu at 1.30 I found that I had started my period. My question is this - in such situations, once your period has finished should you make qada prayer for that Zuhr prayer as you may have been 'clean' and could have prayed it or not? |
| Re: Question about menstruation? |
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| Kathy |
| 03/16/04 at 09:34:50 |
| [wlm] :-[ My guess, notice I said guess because I am not a scholor, is that if you have stopped menstruating then yes, you are required to pray. :-) I understand getting a shower in between classes is a problem. :oThat is the reality. ;) :-*But if you are looking for an absolute answer then yep... when the menses is done, ya gotta pray. |
| Re: Question about menstruation? |
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| sisterhood |
| 03/16/04 at 10:09:53 |
| [wlm] wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu Dear sister, I know that if you were in fact clean and the time for Dhur prayer came and you didn't pray it before your menses started {for example you were a little late in going to pray and before you did your period started} then when you are finished from your menses you must make up that Dhur prayer. However, in your case it is unclear if you were clean or not at the time of dhur prayer so I am not really sure how to advice you but the best thing would be to ask a scholar to be sure or to search on the internet to see if a scholar has not already given a fatwaa on this issue. Fee Aman Allah, Amena |
| Re: Question about menstruation? |
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| Kathy |
| 03/16/04 at 20:07:45 |
| [quote author=sisterhood link=board=sis;num=1079370298;start=0#2 date=03/16/04 at 10:09:53] then when you are finished from your menses you must make up that Dhur prayer. [/quote] Make up a Prayer? I did not know we can make up prayers. Can you give me more info on making up missed prayers? |
| Re: Question about menstruation? |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 03/16/04 at 21:34:11 |
| [slm] I'm under the impression that it is possible to make up fard prayers but not sunnah, and then only is you are normally in the habit of doing all your prayers. Read that in a fatwa somewhere. As far as I know about onset questions, thats pretty much only something a woman knows about herself since we are all different in this, and going into to many details seems to be something people avoid concerning this. |
| Re: Question about menstruation? |
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| Taalibatul_ilm |
| 03/16/04 at 23:08:47 |
| [slm] Here is what islam-qa states about this: Question : If a woman’s period starts after the time for prayer begins, what is the ruling? Should she make that prayer up? Answer : Praise be to Allaah. If the period starts after the time for prayer begins, e.g. it starts half an hour after the time for Zuhr prayer begins, then after she becomes pure (i.e., after her period ends) she should make up the prayer whose time began when she was still pure, because Allaah says: “Verily, As‑Salaah (the prayer) is enjoined on the believers at fixed hours” [al-Nisa’ 4:103] But she should not make up the prayers from the time of her period because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, in a lengthy hadeeth: “Is it not the case that when she is menstruating she does not pray or fast?” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 304; Muslim, 80). The scholars are agreed that a woman does not have to make up the prayers that she missed during her period. But if she becomes taahir (pure – i.e., her period ends) and there is still enough time left to do one or more rak'ahs, then she should pray the prayer during the time of which her period ended, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever catches up with one rak’ah before the sun rises has caught up with Fajr prayer, and whoever catches up with one rak’ah before the sun sets has caught up with ‘Asr prayer.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 579; Muslim, 607). So if she become pure at the time of ‘Asr and there is enough time left before sunset for her to pray one rak’ah, then she should pray ‘Asr. And Allaah knows best. Majmoo’ Fataawa wa Rasaa’il Fadeelat al-Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him), 11/276. (www.islam-qa.com) http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=26336&dgn=4 |
| Re: Question about menstruation? |
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| Mujahideen |
| 03/17/04 at 03:23:36 |
[slm] Making up missed prayers is Wajib – if you missed them you have to make them up; no matter how many. Meaning if you missed 20 years of prayer because of negligence then you must make up 20 years of prayer. The only exception is because of conversion – you are not required to repeat any prayers you ‘missed’ before becoming Muslim. This is a common problem there are many Muslims ‘returning’ to their Deen and have many years of missed prayers. These must be made up as these people do not fall into the category of ‘converts’. All classical texts of Fiqh written by our great scholars such as any of the four imams, Imam nawawi, imam Ibn hajar, Imam Qurturbi, etc..; describe this requirement of making up missed prayers emphatically. Read the classical texts and they will enlighten you, yes most are only available in Arabic. For those of you who feel they are at a level of knowledge where they are able to evaluate the proofs for these rulings you can pick up a Shar on the text for excruciating detail on the Dalil and methodology for the position. A woman does not have to make up any prayers when she is actually menstruating. Learning Arabic is very important for all Muslims, it provides access to hundreds of thousands of texts that deal with these issues which were written by people far greater then we have today. These are not new issues and there isno reason why we should look to modernists to answer these questions that Ijtihad has been performed upon long ago. If we learn Arabic we will no longer be dependent upon translations done by those who translate selectively in order to propagate narrow understandings of Islam; currently most Muslims are at their mercy and this is not a good situation. |
| Re: Question about menstruation? |
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| jannah |
| 03/17/04 at 11:19:10 |
| [wlm] [quote]Meaning if you missed 20 years of prayer because of negligence then you must make up 20 years of prayer. [/quote] There is another opinion for someone who has missed years of prayer that doesn't include having to make up every single prayer. Please seek out a scholar or your Imam for details InshaAllah. |
| Re: Question about menstruation? |
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| Mujahideen |
| 03/17/04 at 14:20:40 |
| [slm] There are a few modernist opinions that do say you don’t have to make them up on the basis that if you leave prayer for an extended period of time you have apostated and were a Kafir at the time and thus not responsible; at least this is my understanding of their rational. They also claim that you convert to Islam when you decide to ‘return’ back to Islam and begin practicing again. Most that hold this position seem to be restricted to the Imams of the Wahabbie persuasion. I am unaware of a classical position attesting to this idea – but then again this is not saying much as I am unaware of much. I guess the point I was trying to make is that such opinions are noticeably absent from classical texts (in my limited experience) despite the phenomenon being present at the time the texts were written. Classical texts and by extension the Imam’s that authored them have seem to have always have taken the position that been that missed prayers must be made up. So then you have to determine what opinion you are going to follow – the opinions of many of the Imam’s from the height of scholarship who’s Ijtihad everyone agrees upon by all; or conversely modernist thinkers who are often not universally accepted even within their own sect or Mihaj. Given that the issue of Muslims missing prayers is as old as Islam itself – personally I would not feel comfortable in adopting a modernist position that flies in the face of centuries of scholarship by scholars who’s Ijtihad is accepted by Ijma’. Prayer is the first thing we will be asked about on the day of judgment - best to take the most conservative opinion – in my opinion. It actually does not take long – I know of brother who have made up years of prayer in a very short time without imposing any hardship upon them. They carry a little book to keep track of the prayers they have made up. but checking wwith someone schhol in Islam is a good idea of course. |
| Re: Question about menstruation? |
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| Maliha |
| 03/17/04 at 14:48:33 |
| [slm] I am sorry bro Mujahideen, I don't know you or your background is...but isn't it a little presumptious of you to write off all the scholars who hold another opinion as being "modernist"? I am not sure how well read you are, but i find it heard to believe that someone can *categorically* say they have studied 1400 years worth of classical material, surveyed *every* *single* opinion and came up with the conclusion that "yes, ALL the classical scholars hold *this* one position". Second, to categorize all the other positions as being modernist, and all the rhetoric that comes with that, is also really wrong. We do have, today, scholars who studied under a long lineage of scholars...the mistaken notion that only scholars of the past have something of worth to say, is really damaging to the Muslim psyche. Another side point is that there was never one point is history where everyone automatically agreed. Differences of opinion are as old as the time of the Sahaba, and the Rasul [saw]...It is very hard to pick one gray-ish issue, and say there was ever full consensus on it. The difference is in the past people respected differences of opinion, encouraged it, and learned from each other. Today, we are quick to tarnish people of "other" opinions as either being modernist, wahabbi, sufi, or whatever other "bad" category we can come up with. Its too sad... I would recommend going to a trusted scholar too...i just find that sometimes these Fiqhi questions on the board tend to get people a little caught up, that's all. Sis in struggle, [wlm] |
| Re: Question about menstruation? |
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| Mujahideen |
| 03/17/04 at 16:08:21 |
| [slm] I hope all is well with you and your family Sister Nur_al_Layl. I apologize if my post was perhaps unclear however I think you might benefit from re-reading my post. I did not claim to have surveyed ‘all’ of the classical works nor did I claim that ‘all’ of such opinions were modernist; in fact I stated: “I guess the point I was trying to make is that such opinions are noticeably absent from classical texts (in my limited experience)” Please note the disclaimer. And “Most that hold this position seem to be restricted to the Imams of the Wahabbie persuasion. I am unaware of a classical position attesting to this idea – but then again this is not saying much as I am unaware of much.” Again please note the disclaimer. I do appreciate what you are trying to say – that no one is an expert in 1400 years of scholarship – however again I did not claim to be such. Additionally I did not claim that “all” of the scholars who hold that one does not need to make up prayers were modernist – I did say: “Most that hold this position seem to be restricted to the Imams of the Wahabbie persuasion. Again I was not quite as categorical as you seem to feel I was. I guess I am just trying to contend that: A- this opinion of not being required to make up missed prayers seems to be absent from classical fiqh texts or at the very least not dominant as they are not in the more common texts – if there is a classical fiqh opinion I fully accept I may very well be unaware of it and would be very interested in being directed to it. B- I am all for modern scholarship, in fact some issue may only be dealt with by modern scholars as times have changed since the classical opinion have been issued. Prayer is not an issue that changes in this way as far as I can determine. However IF indeed the classical opinion differs from the modern opinion; then I believe we really need to examine what the reason(s) for this difference is instead of simply adopting an opinion without consideration for examination of its validity. And perhaps taking the more conservative road is more religiously precautious – prayer is very important. It seems odd given that our sources are static that an opinion such as this would change over time especially considering that the phenomenon of missing prayers was a problem in both time periods. The other thing I’ll certainly concede is that my previous posts did not account for those with specific situations where making up 20 years of prayers would impose undue hardship – I was certainly negligent in this manner and adherence to a minority opinion (if indeed it is a minority opinion) even as a rhuksa is well within the Usul of our Deen. Also attributing the modern opinions to the Wahabbies was perhaps an over generalization; but it has simply been my experience. Anyways I really did not want to write this post as I don’t want to promote “my” opinion as the only opinion; because I hate when people do that – Islam is a far broader path then we often allow. I only posted because I feared you might be offended by what I said and I don’t want to have to account for this at the end of time. Again I do apologize for my lack of clarity and will leave it at that. |
| Re: Question about menstruation? |
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| Maliha |
| 03/17/04 at 17:26:31 |
| [slm] my bad bro, I shouldn't have jumped to ze conclusions i did:) Jazaka Allahu Khayran for the clarification. ;) Sis in struggle... [wlm] |
| Re: Question about menstruation? |
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| gift |
| 03/18/04 at 05:57:46 |
| [slm] I think the sister is asking is what happens if you don't know when your period started and so she is unsure of whether she could have prayed Zuhr at 12.20. Hmm not sure of the answer, I have wondered about this from time to time too. Another reason not to delay your salah I guess. :) |
| Re: Question about menstruation? |
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| faith |
| 03/18/04 at 06:20:25 |
| [slm] sisters, ok, ok, lighten up people :D. Btw, this is strictly for sisters; brothers please don't reply coz i'll be embarassed ::) [side comment, sister jannah, can we have a blushing smiley plz?] Have you ever, during the course of your period, forgotten that you have it, and tried to pray instead? Coz it happened to me recently, I was upset that I was 1.5 hours late for Asr prayer coz I was engrossed in my work, and went to the prayer room to do my wudhu', put on my praying garments, and said takbeer and then...... :o oops, then realised that i shouldn't be praying... Another time, when i have finished my menstruation during my normal cycle, bathed, prayed again, and 2 days later realised, that errrm, that it came back only after I've prayed dhuh'r ::). Then same thing again...engrossed in my work, went to pray, and actually prayed, returned to my desk, and then, oooopppps :o, i realised that i shouldn't be praying.... :o :'( :'( this is the only time that shaytan actually encourages me to pray |
| Re: Question about menstruation? |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/22/04 at 09:15:16 |
| [slm] [quote author=Mujahideen link=board=sis;num=1079370298;start=10#10 date=03/17/04 at 16:08:21] I apologize if my post was perhaps unclear however I think you might benefit from re-reading my post. I did not claim to have surveyed ‘all’ of the classical works nor did I claim that ‘all’ of such opinions were modernist; in fact I stated: “I guess the point I was trying to make is that such opinions are noticeably absent from classical texts (in my limited experience)” Please note the disclaimer. [/quote] A brother, not a member of this board brought this thread to my attention and sent me this reply. Also Please do not slander people/scholars by calling them "wahhabis". The brother said: I had a look at the thread in the Akhwat Cafe "Question about menstruation" and there is a brother who posted something similar regarding the prayer as that other brother you mentioned to me a while ago who says that Ibn Taymiyyah & Ibn al-Qayyim's opinions are divergent from 1400 years of scholarship, etc. I read the beginning of Ibn al-Qayyim's book on the ruling regarding the one who abandons salaah, he opens up by saying that Muslims do not differ over the fact that abandoning salaah is a greater sin in the Sight of Allah then committing zina, stealing, or even killing a person. Then he goes on to say that Malik, Shafi'i and Ahmad all held the opinion that the abandoner of salaah should be killed and differed only over the method of execution. And Abu Hanifa held the opinion that he should be imprisoned until he repents. Regardless of what the brother says of Ibn al-Qayyim's opinions, i don't think he would say that Ibn al-Qayyim made all this up. Hence, it puts a question mark over what this brother is stating about 'majority (non-Wahhabi) opinion.' Furthermore, i asked one of my teachers about this issue last week and he said that the one who abandoned salaah for years on end would have been regarded as a disbeliever during that time, so that when he eventually starts praying again he doesn't need to re-pray those prayers that he had missed cos he has become a Muslim again, and new Muslims don't make up past prayers. My teacher also said that the opinion that missed prayers should be re-prayed is a weak opinion. |
| 03/22/04 at 09:22:16 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: Question about menstruation? |
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| theOriginal |
| 03/22/04 at 11:11:59 |
| [slm] For fear of being reprimanded, don't people who refer to the word "wahabbi" with disdain NOT consider the four fiqh imams to be a aprt of this group? Okay maybe I come from an idealistic mindset, but why in the world can we not get along? [quote author=bhaloo link=board=sis;num=1079370298;start=10#14 date=03/22/04 at 09:15:16]My teacher also said that the opinion that missed prayers should be re-prayed is a weak opinion. [/quote] As for that, this is an entirely different situation. MY teacher said that if dhuhr is at 12:30, and you don't pray...and you get your period at 1:30, you are held accountable for that missed prayer. So, (this isn't part of what my teacher said) just make it up, it's all good. If anything else, it'll be counted as a hasana, and I'm sure you'll be rewarded for it. Wasalaam. |
| 03/22/04 at 11:20:39 |
| theOriginal |
| Re: Question about menstruation? |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 03/22/04 at 11:24:29 |
| [slm] If someone prays a prayer with the inttention of making up a fard prayer, and the prayer was not necessary because it was not actually missed, how will it count for a type of prayer that was not intended? I'm asking, because I dont know. Also when is hte actual onset of menstration determined, is it when bleeding begins or when blood is aparent. In my case if I first saw blood at 1:30 then I know the bleeding started before 12:30 because there is a delay of time between the two events. About the imprisonment of people abandoning prayer, is ther any doctors examination preliminary to imprisonment or exicution to deterimne if prayer is accepted form this person? Is ther any evidence that people are required to continue praying even when their prayer is not accepted? How id the proof established that a person has given up prayer? Is the witness of someone lookin in a persons window during prayer time accepted as evidence or is some other proof neccessary? |
| Re: Question about menstruation? |
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| MIT |
| 03/22/04 at 12:01:09 |
| as-salaamu alaikum al-ajnabia, in answer to your questions regarding the specifics of how proof is established and other related matters, there has been discussion of such by scholars, but i think delving into this might be better suited from the point of view of personal research. Afterall, whether a person is executed or not, is academic for us, because we don't live in an Islamic State. And i think other questions are better suited for a faqih. |
| NS |
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