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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| intercession and praying by the dead |
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| timbuktu |
| 03/19/04 at 11:49:59 |
| [slm] I am very perturbed these days. I approached some people on this board for some guidance, and jannah has suggested i put my request on the board too, so that I can get a feedback from as many as possible. Here goes :) I need your help in trying to convince someone that intercession by deceased awlia in this world is not possible. The person had the right concepts, but suddenly I hear this: "yes, some dont like the sufism because they are afraid some people just dont differentiate between the praying to and seeking intercession, yes, it would be a problem for some ignorant people but not some who are educated and know whats what." can you please help with ayahs, and authentic AHadeeth, and if possible a decent discourse with all possiblities? Thanks |
| 03/20/04 at 20:23:33 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| Mossy |
| 03/19/04 at 13:55:48 |
| Salams, Erm.. You want an support for the position that it is possible, or permissable? I can remember from the ihya that al-Ghazali at least stated it was required to believe in intercession from a variety of people, referring specifically to al-shafa'a. I've a whole load of references in my notes, but I'm sure you'll be directed to a number of articles on both sides of the issue. I think it's perfectly possible myself, although to nowhere near as high a degree as with a Prophet (pbut), ws Mossy |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| timbuktu |
| 03/19/04 at 17:50:06 |
| [slm] i am not talking of the Day of Judgment, i am talking of today, when people ask dead awliya to help them, like the Catholics ask their saints to do so. I don't believe in such things, I dont find the sahaba asking for help from the prophet [saw] after he passed away. I also await input from those whom i have approached privately, to help in this through the board or through IM. Thanks |
| 03/20/04 at 04:40:49 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/19/04 at 22:45:26 |
| [slm] Sheikh Albani (may Allah (SWT) preserve him), wrote an excellent book on this topic, its 165 pages, and goes into the lawful and unlawful forms of this practice, with opinions from the classical scholars of Islam and responds to the false claims made by some groups. You can buy the book here. http://store.yahoo.com/islamicbookstore-com/b3454.html But if you don't have access to this book, here is a reply I came across on this very topic in chapter 7 of a different book online. http://www.ahya.org/tjonline/eng/07/07index.html |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| Nomi |
| 03/20/04 at 01:27:22 |
| [slm] Should i or should i not mention what "other" gr16 scholars have to say about this issue. Just one comment for now: intercession "does not" (for many) mean that you are asking Prophet [saw] or Sahaba OR Awlia for "help". No, for me and majority of Muslims out there it means something else. Muslims in subcontinent and indonesia make a big majority so for those who'll add more to this thread: Please dont bash us! I hope you wouldn't ask me to win this argument too :) Thankyou :-* [slm] -me nomi ps: of course i dint start this thread, it was uncle Khalid :P |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| timbuktu |
| 03/20/04 at 02:21:26 |
| [slm] actually, the Catholics believe in intercession for help and praying. They believe that the saints after death are still alive, and listening to us, and when we ask them to pray for us, they do so, and they intercede for us in our wordly matters. much like a lot of tassawwuf has been all about. but i would certainly like to see links to alternative opinion. u can always IM me. |
| 03/23/04 at 08:04:18 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/20/04 at 02:47:43 |
| [slm] The reason I mentioned the two links was because they present what the people on the other side have to say (though the short link to chapter 7 goes into only a little detail). Along with what Timbuktu said about Catholics doing this, I've seen many hindus do this as well. One hindu house that I visited, they had a picture of one of their pious dead people, and they would ask him to forgive them. |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| Nomi |
| 03/20/04 at 02:53:31 |
| [tt]its the same post, just a replacement (my privilege?)[/tt] [slm] [quote author=timbuktu link=board=lighthouse;num=1079714999;start=0#5 date=03/20/04 at 02:21:26] actually, the Catholics believe in intercession for help and praying. They beleive that the saints after death are stil alive, and listening to us, and when we ask them to pray for us, they do so, and they intercede for us in our wordly matters. much like a lot of tassawwuf has been all about. [/quote] [quote] Along with what Timbuktu said about Catholics doing this, I've seen many hindus do this as well. One hindu house that I visited, they had a picture of one of their pious dead people, and they would ask him to forgive them [/quote] Where did "pictures" come from?.. i and *millions* like me dont hang any pictures ::) hm.. actually there are "non-muslims" who are Monotheist, so what should we do? stop believeing in diety or something? (astagfirullah for that). Just some food for thought for those who are to add more to this thread. My quota of 5 posts ends here, will add more later [tt](one more post and i get banned)[/tt] "if" non-salafis failed to defend :P Salaams and much respect, Hoping to shake your hand soon inshaAllah :) -Nomi |
| 03/20/04 at 02:54:33 |
| Nomi |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/20/04 at 10:12:41 |
| [slm] Tell me something Nomi, did you actually read the link I put up? |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| Anonymous |
| 03/22/04 at 04:01:45 |
| Assalamu alaikum, The position of traditional sunni islam on the topic. ----------------- Istighatha: Calling Someone Other Than Allah for Halp. Followed by an answer on the permissibility of Tawassul: using intermediaries in supplication to Allah Answered by Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari, UK Is it permitted to call someone other than Allah for help? Is this not bordering on shirk? How about taking vows for other than Allah? In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful, There are two aspects to your question. The first with regards to seeking help directly from the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) and other righteous servants of Allah, and the second relates to taking a vow (nazar) for other than Allah. Seeking help from other than Allah (istighatha) If by seeking help from the Prophets and pious means making them an intermediary between the seeker and Allah, then there is nothing wrong in seeking their help. Tawassul (using intermediaries in supplication to Allah) through the Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace), Awliya and righteous believers is permitted, rather recommended according to the four schools of Sunni Islam. It is quite perfectly permissible for one to seek the help of a Prophet or a righteous person by asking him to pray to Allah on one’s behalf, or to use him as an intermediary when praying directly to Allah. Explicit narrations and implicit indications of the Qur’an fully justify this practice, and it would be wrong to condemn it as being forbidden or to include it among the various forms of polytheism (shirk). (See below for details and evidences; and http://www.daruliftaa.org/tawassul1.htm). This Tawassul may be expressed by using any phrase or done in any form, including: Wasila (supplicating Allah through a means), Istighatha (calling upon someone for help, through Allah’s love and concern for them), Isti’ana (seeking someone’s assistance, through Allah’s granting). When one seeks help from the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) or one of the righteous, the intention is to gain their intercession (shafa’a) and mediation before Allah Almighty, because of Allah’s love and concern for them. Tawassul (supplicating Allah through a means) through a living or deceased intermediary is not the seeking of assistance from a physical body, or through a life or death; rather, it is to seek assistance through the positive meaning attached to the person in both life and death, and due to their rank with Allah, for the body is but the vehicle that carries that significance. However, if one seeks the help of a Prophet, saint or any other creation of Allah believing him to be omnipotent like Allah, then this polytheism (shirk) and can never be considered permissible. Similarly, one believes that Allah alone is Omnipotent, but also believes that He has delegated a part of His power to an angel, a Prophet or a saint who exercises full and independent authority in that area, then this will also be considered Shirk, and thus forbidden. The above are the two types of requests which the Qur’an forbids, and against which it warns us in the opening Surah: “We worship you alone and only your aid we seek”. (al-Fatiha, 5). The great late Syrian scholar, Shaykh Muhammad al-Hamid (Allah have mercy on him) explains: “As for someone who believes that those called upon can cause effects, benefit, or harm, which they create or cause to exist as Allah does, such a person is an idolater who has left Islam” (See: Reliance of the Traveller, P. 940). Therefore, there is nothing wrong in using the Prophets, saints and the righteous as intermediaries to Allah, through any of the abovementioned means, as long as one does not believe them to have the power to benefit or harm in of themselves without the granting of Allah. Taking vows for other than Allah As for taking a vow for other than Allah is concerned, the books of fiqh are quite clear that this is not permissible if this ‘other’ is made the end of one’s vow. It is not permissible to take a vow in the name of anyone other than Allah Most High. For example, a person says to his spiritual guide: "If a certain task of mine is fulfilled, I will do such and such a thing for you", or a person goes to graves or places that are inhabited by jinns and makes certain requests over there. All these acts are haram and constitute shirk. The great Hanafi jurist, Imam al-Haskafi (Allah have mercy on him) states: “Taking vows for the deceased like many ignorant people take money, lamps, oil, etc to the graves of the saints out of reverence is totally unlawful (haram) by consensus”. Allama Ibn Abidin (Allah have mercy on him) commentates on the above: “This is unlawful due to certain reasons: Firstly because, it is taking a vow for the creation (of Allah) and taking a vow for the creation is unlawful, for it (taking a vow) is worship (ibadah) and the creation is not worshiped. Secondly, the one for whom the vow is taken is deceased and a deceased does not own anything. Thirdly, if he had the belief that the deceased has an effect in one’s affairs other than Allah, then this is disbelief”. (Radd al-Muhtar, 2, 439). However, if the vow (nazar) was taken in the name of Allah alone, but the intention was to send the rewards of the vow to the deceased person’s soul or to feed the poor at a grave, then this is permissible. Allama Ibn Abidin (Allah have mercy on him) states: “If one said: “O Allah! I take a vow in your name that if you cure me or fulfil my need, then I will feed the poor people at the grave of Imam Shafi’i….or I will purchase a mat for their Masjid or give money, etc in which there is benefit for the poor, then this is permissible. And it will not be permissible then to use these items on a wealthy person” [ibid] Therefore, in conclusion, if the vows taken for the saints and righteous are with the intention of showing reverence to them, and that they will accept these vows and benefit us, and if the vow is not taken in their name they will become upset, etc…then this is unlawful with the consensus of all the scholars. However, if the intention is merely to send the rewards of the vow taken for Allah to their soul, then this is permissible. And Allah knows best Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari, UK www.daruliftaa.co.uk |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| faith |
| 03/22/04 at 07:27:11 |
| [slm] Astaghfirullah al-Adheeem....how could brother/sister anonymous post should a thing that truly manifest shirk in all aspects...and to justify it by saying that it is permitted by the 4 schools of thought! :o far from it! :( [u]clear, obvious items of shirk:[/u] [quote] If by seeking help from the Prophets and pious means making them an intermediary between the seeker and Allah, then there is nothing wrong in seeking their help. Tawassul (using intermediaries in supplication to Allah) through the Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace), Awliya and righteous believers is permitted, [/quote] [quote] When one seeks help from the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) or one of the righteous, the intention is to gain their intercession (shafa’a) and mediation before Allah Almighty, because of Allah’s love and concern for them. Tawassul (supplicating Allah through a means) through a living or deceased intermediary is not the seeking of assistance from a physical body, or through a life or death; rather, it is to seek assistance through the positive meaning attached to the person in both life and death, and due to their rank with Allah, for the body is but the vehicle that carries that significance. [/quote] oh brothers and sisters, have you forgotten your [u] vow to Allah[/u], the vow you recite 17 times a day?!!! surah al-fatihah (the opening ch1:v4): to You Alone do I worship and to You Alone do I seek help furthermore, Allah has mentioned in the qur'an, many times that the dead cannot hear the living: [color=blue] 027:80. Truly thou canst not cause the dead to listen, nor canst thou cause the deaf to hear the call, (especially) when they turn back in retreat. 030:52. So verily thou canst not make the dead to hear, nor canst thou make the deaf to hear the call, when they show their backs and turn away. 035:22. Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. Allah can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves. [/color] WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU WANT??!!! Our beloved prophet muhammad [saw] cannot hear our du'as, for he is dead...he cannot help us...except by us following his examples, commands, (ie. sunnah)....nor can anyone else who is dead, however much loved they were by Allah azzawajalla! As to your claim that it is practised by the 4 schools...far from it...astaghfirullah, for you have accussed them of committing shirk!! :o Let me tell you, I have been most fortunate to be taught by a shafi'e teacher (on tafseer al quran), and a salafi teacher (on sunnah), and my shafi'e teacher, azharite graduate has specifically forbidden us to supplicate to Rasullallah [saw], in a lesson she taught last week! The rationale that you gave to allow intercessions, sounds very much like my catholic's friend's rationale for her supplicating to saints, because to her, saints have a closer relationship with Allah, and hence, a person who supplicates to the saints can be helped by the saints to recommend to Allah to grant their supplications. let me make my distinction clear: you can seek help from the living, e.g. from a doctor, a lawyer, etc...but know that their help is limited, and the final outcome rest with Allah... but it is shirk to seek help from the dead, because the dead cannot hear you... Oh brothers who engage in supplicating through intecessors, if in doubt whether your action is correct or not, just remember, just in case that your position is wrong: you would have much to lose, and not be accepted as a believer in Allah, for Allah forgives any sin, except the sin of shirk! If you still argue that my position is wrong, then tell me, if I should die -setting other deeds aside, would Allah not accept me as a believer in Allah, for I am careful to NOT associate partners with HIM? the choice to jannah is clear...which path do you want to take? :-) |
| 03/22/04 at 07:56:54 |
| faith |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| faith |
| 03/22/04 at 07:52:18 |
| [slm] continuation from above... if brothers who engage in praying by the dead, and intercession are still adamant on their points, the following are verses from the qur'an which explains that intercession can be of no benefit to them, and that the only Help is from ALLAH alone... [color=blue] 002:107. Knowest thou not that to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Him ye have neither patron nor helper. 002:123. Then guard yourselves against a-Day when one soul shall not avail another, nor shall compensation be accepted from her nor shall intercession profit her nor shall anyone be helped (from outside). 003:150. Nay, Allah is your protector, and He is the best of helpers 003:160. If Allah helps you, none can overcome you: If He forsakes you, who is there, after that, that can help you? in Allah, then, Let believers put their trust. 004:45. But Allah hath full knowledge of your enemies: Allah is enough for a protector, and Allah is enough for a Helper. b007:197. "But those ye call upon besides Him, are unable to help you, and indeed to help themselves." 008:10. Allah made it but a message of hope, and an assurance to your hearts: (in any case) there is no help except from Allah. and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. 026:93. "'Besides Allah. Can they help you or help themselves?' [/color] If the qur'an still doesn't move you to believe that praying through intercession, to the dead is wrong...then your heart is as hard as stone... Please brothers, please repent to Allah whilst you still have time...for you may think you are not doing harm, when in fact, you are harming your own selves... :-) |
| 03/22/04 at 07:55:07 |
| faith |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| humble_muslim |
| 03/22/04 at 11:11:13 |
| AA Whaty's really interesting here, apart from all the valid points Faith has put up (good job, mashaallah) is how in my dawah I try to convince Christains that the "religion" as preoffesed by Chrsitians today in not Christiantiy as professed by Jesus, but the the sayings and actions of Jesus as interpreted by human beings (in the case of Christianity, the early church) to justify their theological positions. And this is basically what the guy in the article seems to be doing. May Allah protect us from following the ways of the Christians, Ameen. |
| NS |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| superFOB |
| 03/22/04 at 15:57:15 |
| [slm] Do we NEED topics which we KNOW are going to be controversial on a message board NOT meant for this purpose? Why can't we accept differences of opinion gracefully instead of engaging in endless/meaningless conversations/arguments which change absolutely NOTHING? Why can't we have topics which are productive in the true sense of the word? Why mere followers take upon themselves to pass judgements and interpretations based on their OWN understanding or lack of it? Gettting back to the subject matter, I am rather dismayed that I couldn't find any well written article in FAVOR of tawassul from the people of taqlid. Which, of course, is not an indicator of the illegality of the concept, rather an evidence of the dominance of net-savvy salafis on the web. Nevertheless, here is an interesting article I stumbled across on a "shiah" website (take the usual cautions). A good read considering that it is coming from a slightly different perspective. http://www.al-islam.org/mot/tawassul.htm Difference of opinion is a GOOD thing, imho. The last thing we want in this fitnah-ridden world is islamo-fascism. |
| superFOB |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| timbuktu |
| 03/22/04 at 22:26:41 |
| [slm] [i]brothers and sisters[/i] note: the words in italics are replacement to reference to someone, my apologies here. don't get upset, please. I was worried that there would be controversy and hence I PM'd some people, but jannah thought i would be able to get more info this way. I can stand a lot of different opinions. If I find the arguments not to my taste, I either come up with better arguments, or I ignore those posts I do not like. Why should I get angry, and why should I not let other people have their own discussions, even if I disagree with them? what do you think of this? |
| 03/23/04 at 09:04:58 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| jannah |
| 03/22/04 at 23:33:49 |
| [wlm] the biggest thing the message board should teach us is to agree to disagree.. cause this isn't the khalifah nor is it the place to convert other ppl to a certain 'brand of islam'. it's just about muslims trying to support, help and educate each other. if we can do that at a level of decent respect for each other and each other's opinions we will have definitely accomplished something. but can it be done? |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| faith |
| 03/23/04 at 01:01:13 |
| [slm] astaghfirullah al-adheem...i have to say sorry brothers, but i certainly disagree with you that this topic of intercession/du'a to the dead is a trivial matter, and to be set aside for the greater good of muslim unity.... :( To those who profess themselves as muslims: submission to ONE GOD - the concept of tawheed/unity of God is no trivial matter and should never be set aside for any other purpose, even if for the purpose of muslim unity. For Allah's Unity is far more important, and our acknowledgements of it, and actions toward it supercede all else... it is the basis of Islam, the shadahah: the proclamation of faith: I believe there is no deity worthy of worship except God, and Muhammad is His final messenger ...and all acts of those who proclaim this must signify this shahadah. As to the brother who claims that this rigour to the oneness of God is in the exclusive domain of Salafis - how wrong you are! I live in a Shafi'e based muslim country, and the practise of supplicating to the dead is unheard of here, and abhored by us muslims in this country. Alhamdulillah, for my muslim countrymen have been protected from practising this form of shirk... To the brothers who insist that supplicating to the dead, either to prophets, or saints, is not a form of reverence, or deifying them, or worshipping them...: When you acknowledge that your Lord is One, He begets not nor is He begotten, - you also acknowledge that only He is worthy of worship, and only to Him do you seek help, and protection. There are ample verses in the Qur'an that states that ONLY to Allah should you seek help and protection. If you so wish to supplicate to the dead, because they are nearer to Allah, and can help you to "recommend" to Allah to grant your wishes, take note of these verses: [color=blue] 17:56. Say: "Call on those - besides Him - whom ye fancy: they have neither the power to remove your troubles from you nor to change them." 17:57. Those whom they call upon do desire (for themselves) means of access to their Lord, - even those who are nearest: they hope for His Mercy and fear His Wrath: for the Wrath of thy Lord is something to take heed of. [/color] It is not my brand of Islam that I am promoting, nor is it the salafi brand, nor the shafi-e brand, but only based upon the Qur'an itself and no other. If such brothers persist in seeking intercession/praying to the dead, I have nothing further to say but this: 17: 96. Say: [color=blue]"Enough is Allah for a witness between me and you: for He is well acquainted with His servants, and He sees (all things). [/color] |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/23/04 at 02:02:21 |
| [slm] Mashallah, great posts Faith. I'm going to save your posts in this thread and add it to my collection. [quote author=faith link=board=lighthouse;num=1079714999;start=10#16 date=03/23/04 at 01:01:13] As to the brother who claims that this rigour to the oneness of God is in the exclusive domain of Salafis - how wrong you are! I live in a Shafi'e based muslim country, and the practise of supplicating to the dead is unheard of here, and abhored by us muslims in this country. Alhamdulillah, for my muslim countrymen have been protected from practising this form of shirk... [/quote] Jannah and Se7en, what does bro. M say about this topic? |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| UmmWafi |
| 03/23/04 at 02:56:49 |
| [slm] When I first started lurking at Jannah, I was impressed by the environment of the Madinat. People were certainly opinionated back then (think Mujahid, Jehad (dare I say myself ?) and some others who have since left or went back to the Kingdom of Lurkdom). However, despite the very "vocal" exchanges we had, we basically shared a silent agreement. To disagree in peace, in the spirit of Islam. Today, I believe I am still as opinionated as before. The difference is I don't voice out my opinions anymore. As much as I would like to place the blame squarely on my shoulders, I must say that a large part also is due to the current environment permeating the Madinat. I have my opinions about intercession but after reading some of the replies here I definitely hesitate to post them. Why risk being called mushrik, regardless of which side I am on for either way I am wrong to someone else ? The sad part is, this haste to pronounce judgement on fellow members is slowly gaining popularity. We are quick to pronounce takfeer on others, to condemn thoughts as shirk, to generalise Muslims as an apathetic and miserable lot. We allow ourselves to accept posts which resorted to name callings, even to the extent of calling another brother as a dog of the kuffar. Frankly speaking, I just don't get it. I mean, we all have some kind of religious teaching and training. We all have our leanings. We all have thoughts. We all have one or more ulama' we are impressed with, whose teachings we revere. We all have Islamic sites we frequent. But, what I want to know is, what is it that makes us think we ARE the authority ? What is it that gives us the legitimacy to make pronouncements on others ? This post as a case example. How many of us are experts on tasawwuf ? How many of us have made such a thorough study of intercession that we can call ourselves experts on this ? Or on any subjects for that matter ? There is a sufi group called the Malamatiyyah who on some days purposely invite blame from the public. The reason they do this is so that they don't fall prey to one of the ruh's greatest enemy. Pride. Even the pride of being righteous and good. I know I may have ruffled some feathers with this post and believe me it is with a heavy heart I pen this. However, I just felt that I cannot keep silent much longer. I just felt that I cannot bear to be censored by religious dogmatism. I very much welcome differences because differences have always been a part of life for the ancient scholars. Even Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim had their differences. I have on many occasions enjoyed reading various spectrum of opinions and ideas by various groups and positions. It pains me thus to see that understanding is no longer a virtue amongst us. It saddens me beyond what I can express here. Please forgive this sad soul who sincerely cares for her Muslim brothers and sisters. It is because I care very much that I did what I felt reluctant to do. To those I have offended, I truly beg your forgiveness for I harboured no intention to hurt. I worried for far too long that I am willing to risk anger and even a ban. I honestly feel that to be here and to be silenced is equivalent to not be here at all. May Allah SWT Accept my intentions, Forgive my deeds and Guide my future. Wassalam |
| 03/23/04 at 03:04:53 |
| UmmWafi |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| timbuktu |
| 03/23/04 at 05:15:08 |
| [slm] please bear with me, and read the whole post note: I have edited this post so that the portion in italics is a modified version to eliminate what was a reference to some brothers and sisters, or was rightly objected to. my apologies here. There are a couple of other places where another objection has probably been raised, and I will be happy if the pointing out is more exact, and an improved wording is also suggested. I like the posts by sister faith and bro humble, and the links given by bro bhaloo, and others who have answered on the PM are also simply fantastic, and I do agree that this is not a trivial matter. In fact I reiterate that what they have expressed ia also my position on the matter. BUT i respect the right of [i]all brothers and sisters[/i] to hold different opinions. I don't find their arguments convincing, but they have rights. somewhere else I have said that I have married into a sufi Hanafi family. My wife has respected me enough that the pictures I removed stay removed, and she does not visit mazaars, or offer food to the deceased ones. She hasn't become ahle Hadith, but she is quite far from the practices that some get involved in. Incidentally, all my bhabis were Hanafi with varying degrees of tassawwuf leanings, and have with time, come away from tassawwuf, some even becoming ahle-Hadith, and this without any pressure from our family. If I were to be very strict, I would stop eating at my in-laws. In my childhood, we used to return all dishes that came to us from neighbors on special occassions like muharram, or shab-e-baraat, etc. when it was common to prepare or dedicate those dishes for the dead. That practice is now almost dead. They know [i]differently now[/i], and they have also moved somewhat closer from stark Barelvi leanings to Deobandi ones. In fact, that has been the case throughout. Not that it is good enough for me, but I hold my peace. so, while I do think that my in-laws have leanings [i]I strongly disapprove of[/i], I hope and pray for them to stay out of the very blatant shirk that I see manifested at the mazaars around me, and to which some of my friends are addicted, for I have visited shrines with them to see what goes on. Guidance is only for Allah (swt) to give. We can only provide in a hasan way what we see as the Truth. If we were to say that only we are muslims, we would have to exclude many from Hajj, and Jannah would have to modify the population of the Medinatul Muslimeen as considerably less than 1.2 billion :) so, NOT a trivial matter, sis faith, but the way you have presented the arguments is the ahsan way, and I commend you for it, and I request you all to keep this thread somewhat polite, so jannah does not have to say: "you are still quarrelsome children, so this topic is banned". after all, this was jannah's suggestion :) and sis UmmWafi, you too have expressed politely your objection to the direction of the board. So, while I say that I do think I have a very good reason why my way is the correct one, i cannot (and will not) try to push my opinions on any one else. I want to prove to the Admin of this board that we are grown-ups, who can tolerate differences of opinion, even when they involve basic beliefs, and that we can argue without calling each other names. and that maybe, just maybe, our discussions will help some see the truth as we see it. and I apologise again if my modified version still leaves people dissatisfied. I am always open to revise my words, if not my opinion. |
| 03/23/04 at 15:50:56 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| superFOB |
| 03/23/04 at 06:47:22 |
| [slm] chucha timbuktu (with due respects) You don't have a way with words do you. Chucha, you don't know what IS my opinion. You don't need to know, neither I feel the need to tell! I should have appended a disclaimer at the end "neutral outraged observer". Please use the "M" and the "K" words with extreme caution, no matter whom we are discussing, be they barelwis or any other group. It will ALWAYS kill the conversation, always. As they say, it is sometimes a good idea to keep ones silence. Btw, most people are unaware of deobandis, barelvis, ahl hadith, and other labels. |
| 03/23/04 at 06:52:15 |
| superFOB |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| timbuktu |
| 03/23/04 at 07:37:53 |
| [slm] brothers and sisters offended by my words, i am indeed sorry to cause this offense. I have eliminated the reference to your names when saying "opinions" opposite to mine, and i will see where further i could have caused offense, but if you can specifically point them out, I will try my best to remove the offensive words, insha`Allah. [i]I did use the M word for my in-laws, and i did worry what would be suitable in that context. I have now removed that, although the "M" word does remain elsewhere. If any one can suggest something else, I shall edit my post. I also do not quite recall what and where "K" word I have used. please see that i have not said that any sect is mushrik. Look, I have said prayers behind all, excepting Qadianis.[/i] as earlier on, the words in italics are replacement for what could have caused anger in my view, but if there are still words you object to, please let me know. and I do not want to disturb anyone with unwanted PM's, or asking anyone his leanings. What people say on the message board is what i take to be their stated stand. Should I have misunderstood, i apologize, and am willing to be corrected. so, any one who have found anything in my posts to be offensive, I again apologize, and request that you point out specifically what is offensive, and if possible if you can suggest any improvement in my language, I will be grateful. I will delete or modify that portion, and I will try not to repeat that offense again. i hope you are still not angry with me, because I truly believe that I have no more rights on this board than you have, and even if I consider any one as wrong, I would not presume to have him/ her silenced. Now, I will repeat that this suggestion by the Admin to post this topic has given me a load of information, and I hope to see more, without any recrimination, except that any blame that is to go around is to be put squarely on my shoulders, because somewhere I am making mistakes with words. |
| 03/23/04 at 17:32:40 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| humble_muslim |
| 03/23/04 at 14:37:19 |
| AA Well I actually think Faith is doing a very good job mashallah on this thread. She is not calling anyone names (she has never referred to anyone as a "dog", that was some other board member), she is not making takfeer of any person or group, she is not vouching for any single "sect" of muslims, and she is presenting her arguments with ample evidence (which I have yet to see refuted). And most of all, you can feel the love of tawhid in her posts and the abhorence of shirk. Aren't we all suppose to feel this way? What do people see wrong in the way she is doing things? My personal two cents worth without offending anyone : tawheed is SO important in Islam that a muslim should not even get CLOSE to it. The life of the Prophet(SAW) was filled with many examples where he put this into practice, for example when he said "The Jews and the Christians were cursed because they made the graves of their pious people places of worship". Merely making a grave a place of worship may not be shirk, but it can certainly LEAD to shirk. And this is what the Prophet(SAW) warned us against. For myself, if I ever see any action even approaching shirk, no matter WHO says it is ok to do it, I will always avoid it myself to be on the safe side. That does NOT mean I am calling that person a mushrik. As an example, in Riyadh As Saliheen, it says that Imam Shafi said that it is a virtous deed to recite the Quran at graves. With all that is said in the Quran and the Sunnah about this kind of thing, I beg to respectfully differ from that great Imam, and avoid this. As for the Imam, if he is wrong he still gets the reward for his ijtihaad, and if he is right, he gets two rewards. Didn't the Prophet(SAW) tell us to stay away from doubtful things? I know that many of us bend over backwards almost killing ourselves to avoid "doubtful" food additives, so why not the same attitiude to shirk, which is a far, far worse sin than eating haram food. Say that two equally great scholars have different opinions on whether something is halal or haram to eat. Many people will just "play safe" and go with the scholar who says it is haram. So what about the case where the same scholars differ over whether a particular action is shirk or not? What if one says it's shirk, and the other says it isn't? For my own sake and out of fear of the day of judgement, I will always "play safe" in this case, unless the scholar is giving a very minority opinion. So it seems to me that intercession falls into this category. Yes, some scholars say it it not shirk, some say it is shirk or may lead to shirk. And I don't know whether the ones who say it's shirk are in a minority. But for me, the answer is pretty logical. I'd be interested to know what well known "non Salafi" scholars (like Imam Hamza Yusuf, Sheikh Mukhtar) have to say about this issue. Anybody know? And Allah knows best. |
| NS |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| jannah |
| 03/23/04 at 14:44:03 |
| wlm, hmm I don't think I have the right to post bro M's opinion here. But I found it interesting someone said they tried to find something on the internet to paste for the other point of view and couldn't find it. this is the problem with cut-and-paste arguments on the internet on these type of fiqh topics.. there may be an opinion or explanation that is quite legitimate but is not available on the internet because only certain types of fatwas and writings are out there. and again we are not scholars and topics like these have been argued for CENTURIES by SCHOLARS so what exactly are we doing? i think i made a mistake in allowing this thread... bro timbuktu only wanted some information but this has become a controversial argument with people just posting their point of view on each side and calling each other names etc. ummwafi i feel your post.. i think back then we knew how to do that, but now we ourselves are hesistant to post our different views and without realizing it this encourages an oppressive atmosphere because no one speaks out.. so please everyone post your opinions peacefully wherever you want.. i'll back you up inshallah |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| Mossy |
| 03/23/04 at 19:52:37 |
| Salams, This is one of the more contentious issues around in association with what constitutes bidah for example. Here are some links to items on Islamica which may serve to provide additional information from both sides, including comments from some members present on Jannah as well. [url=http://www.islamicaweb.com/forums/printthread.php?s=&threadid=8682]Ibn Ata Illah and Ibn Taymiyyah debate[/url]. And are very polite about it too. [url=http://www.islamicaweb.com/forums/printthread.php?s=&threadid=13293]Link to discussion of tawassul in the Reliance/Hanbali fiqh list[/url]. [url=http://www.islamicaweb.com/forums/printthread.php?s=&threadid=15428&perpage=41]Tawassul / Waseelah and its implications on Tawheed[/url]. Erm.. Ignore the argumentation within this one, concentrate on the quotes. [url=http://www.islamicaweb.com/forums/printthread.php?s=&threadid=13413&perpage=15&pagenumber=3]Another, but more friendly discussion on the topic[/url]. Kinda. Eh, if some of the great scholars were fine with it, I'm fine with it too.. ws Mossy |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| UmmWafi |
| 03/24/04 at 05:08:18 |
| [slm] [quote author=The humble muslim link=board=madrasa;num=1080105449;start=20#22 date=03/23/04 at 14:37:19]AA Well I actually think Faith is doing a very good job mashallah on this thread. She is not calling anyone names (she has never referred to anyone as a "dog", that was some other board member), she is not making takfeer of any person or group, she is not vouching for any single "sect" of muslims, and she is presenting her arguments with ample evidence (which I have yet to see refuted). [/quote] In view of the fact that I rather dislike the practice of nitpicking on specific members, I would strongly recommend that you reread my post. You will find that I am making a general observation on the changing tone and direction of the board which I felt included certain practices that are perhaps unhealthy. I am constantly aware of my numerous shortcomings and failings. I would definitely hesitate from emphatically putting another Muslim brother or sister down, Inshaa Allah. Shukran for your attention. Wassalam |
| NS |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| Mossy |
| 03/24/04 at 10:22:10 |
| Salams, As an aside, here is Shaykh Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari's brief biography (he was the author of that piece that Faith disapproved with..). [quote] Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari completed the Dars-e-Nizami curriculum of Islamic studies under traditional scholars in Britain, after which he completed a specialization in hadith, in which he covered the 9 major works of hadith, and culminated this with the attainment of a 2-year specialization in the science of giving legal verdicts (ifta’), under Mufti Taqi Usmani and other top scholars in Pakistan. He then went to Syria, where he completed a Master’s in Advanced Fiqh through al-Azhar (Cairo), and studied under top Arab scholars. One of these scholars, Shaykh Abd al-Latif Farfour said that Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam has a tremendous future, and seems destined to become one of the top scholars of our times. He presently teaches at a Darul Uloom in Leicester, and answers people’s questions at Darul Iftaa (www.daruliftaa.org). [/quote] For the position of Shaykh Hamza etc, I would imagine it to be similar to that expressed at www.sunnipath.com - just enter tawassul into the search for some similar lines of thought to that which have been posted. You can check their qualifications by clicking on the teachers link at the top of the page. I think it's worth noting that they deem some forms of supplication as permissable whereas others are not. Interesting, non? ws Mossy |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| humble_muslim |
| 03/24/04 at 12:28:32 |
| AA First a couple of discalimers. I am NOT a salafi, I just try to follow the Quran and Sunnah. Secondly, I do not want to offend anyone on this board or any scholar about this topic, but this topic is so important that I have to continue this thread, but I will do so in a polite - but firm manner. Thirdly, I don't do blind copy and pasting, I try to use my own rational based on the arguments presented. I looked thru a couple of the links Mossy put up. What I can say with certainty is that the arguments in her links put up by by the "anti-intercessors" sound more logical than those put up by the "pro-intercessors". I mean to prove intercession, you really need to take ayats/hadtihs out of context and interpret them in a way which is in non-agreement with numerous other ayats and hadiths - the same thing the trinitarians did to the Bible. Allah SWT is NEVER going to make his deen so difficult to understand that you have to be a literary genius to understand the meanings of his words, yet this seems to be part of the argument used by the pro-intercessors. I have some very important questions for the pro-intercessors on this board, please answer them if you can with proof. 1. Did any Sahaba ever invoke the Prophet(SAW) for help after his death? 2. Let's leave Hamza Yusuf, Ibn Adam, etc out of this. What I want to know is did any of the four imams, who are much greater than any of our modern day scholars, explicity (let's not get wishy washy on this, I mean say without any doubt about what they meant) state that you can call upon the dead for them to help you? If so, please give me references. I mean I doubt anybody would want to follow a ruling which disagreed with ALL the four Imams - that's one of the reasons I beleive music is haram, because they all say so. 3. The one thing I really, really fail to understand is why is there even a need to call upon intercessors between you and Allah SWT when there are so, so, many places in the Quran and Sunnah talking about the closeness of Allah SWT to his slaves? Allah SWT has not set any protocol for us making dua for him : we don't need an appointment, etc., we just raise our hands and ask him. Please answer these questions if you can. BTW, who is Brother M? One final thing. I am not going to say that any specific person who belives in intercession is committing shirk - that is between them and Allah SWT. At the same time, this is a HUGELY important topic and I think we ALL (on both sides) need to try to be open minded. May Allah guide us all, Ameen. |
| NS |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| Mossy |
| 03/24/04 at 12:48:50 |
| Salams, Did you read pages [url=http://www.islamicaweb.com/forums/printthread.php?s=&threadid=13413&perpage=15&pagenumber=3]3[/url] and [url=http://www.islamicaweb.com/forums/printthread.php?s=&threadid=13413&perpage=15&pagenumber=4]4[/url] of the final link? That provides some indicators of 1. and 2., you can find 2. on the sunnipath website as well if I can recall - 1. depends on how far you trust al-Albani's hadith classification to an extent. If you look again at the quotes as opposed to the daleels, you will see that Imam Shafi did tawassul through Imam Abu Hanifa according to Ibn Hajar Al Haytami, amongst a multitude of other opinions, including that of Imam Nawawi, who is pretty much to the forefront of Shafi fiqh. The third link also provides a number of opinions from major ulema. As far as I can see from my own unresearched opinion was that it is mainly the followers of the methodology of Ibn Taymiyyah who deemed it impermissable - or not even so detestable even then, for example there, brother Bhaloo had this quote in that thread: [quote]Reference: "Rasa'il al-Shaykh Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab", the eleventh epistle, pg. 64. On the preceding page, he expresses his opinion on Tawassul by saying: "The correct position according to us is the statement of the majority, that is it is makruh. Therefore, we do not detest those who perform it, and there is no detestation with regards to the issues of ijtihad. However, we do detest those who invoke the created objects in a much more serious manner than he who calls upon Allah but really intends by that the grave [of a righteous person], praying near the shrine of Shaykh 'Abd al-Qadir al-Jilani or his likes and requests therein protection from sorrow and assistance in ones yearnings and the giving of sustenances. So where is [the seriousness of] this act in comparison to he who calls upon Allah, bearing their religion to Him in sincerity, not calling upon anyone save Allah, but he says in his Du'a: I ask you by your Prophet or by the Messengers or by your righteous slaves, or he goes to a known grave [of a saint] and prays therein, but does not call upon anyone save Allah, bearing their religion to Him in sincerity..." Reference: Fatawa al-Shaykh Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab, the third section pg. 68, printed by The University of Muhammad bin Sa'ud during Shaykh Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab week).[/quote] Makruh of course being undesireable as opposed to impermissable? I think all of the scholars are in agreement that there are forms of querying for intercession/prayer that are impermissable, as you will find in their statements. Music isn't haram, just most types ;) ws Mossy ps I'm brother M.. I think.. |
| 03/24/04 at 12:51:47 |
| Mossy |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| se7en |
| 03/24/04 at 12:59:18 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah, okay, I think a lot of our discussions could be more fruitful and less hostile if we read what people post more carefully. first of all, in response to the ruling the anonymous brother/sister put up. it is interesting that you prefaced the ruling by saying that that is the opinon of traditional sunni Islam on the issue. Is there no room for differentiation? was there any discussion or differing of opinions on the matter among the ulama of traditional sunni islam? Respectfully, I feel that this is not the right approach to take when reading a ruling on a matter, unless there is complete consensus among the scholars about it. secondly, about Rasulullah [saw] and the dead being unable to hear or have some kind perception of what you are doing. This is a matter in which scholars differ. Ibn Qayyim (a student of Ibn Taymiyyah) in his book Kitab ar Ruh states otherwise. No one is saying that this matter is not a serious one. There are many very serious matters we do not discuss on the board, but they are banned simply because we are not equipped with the proper knowledge or skills to carry on a discussion about them that would be beneficial. Here is my serious, honest opinion about this debate: are *any* of us here really equipped to understand this, to weigh the evidences and determine the veracity of the texts that the opposing sides cite in their argument? Is there something wrong with just being quiet about an issue and understanding that perhaps you do not really know what you are talking about, and that your 'arguments' for your side are really simply regurgitation or cut/paste from someone who knows more than you do? We are talking about an issue in which some seriously huge scholars differed. A hadeeth of the prophet [saw] we all *do* understand is the one that teaches us to protect ourselves from areas in the deen that are 'gray'. In our own practice we should remain distant from things that are controversial or debated, and at the same time we should withhold ourselves from saying things we will be held accountable for. [color=black]Ata' ibn al-Saib said, "I met people who, when asked for a religious verdict, would tremble as they spoke." [/color] and yet we are so eager to issue our fatawa without thinking about the consequences. let's just be students for a while before trying to be the teacher. :P wasalaamu alaykum |
| 03/24/04 at 13:17:48 |
| se7en |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| timbuktu |
| 03/24/04 at 16:31:55 |
| [slm] bro Mossy, thanks for the links. I have read somewhere that "Kitabur-Ruh" is wrongly attributed to ibne Qayyim. and sis se7en I respectfully disagree. This matter of tawassul through the dead, or of the dead being able to listen to us and help us through their supplications and intercessions in this world is important if it encroaches upon Tawheed, because then otherwise what difference remains between Islam and other religions. and bro humble muslim, I thought the Salafi position was to follow the Qura`n and Sunnah. In what way is it differnt from yours that you are issuing a disclaimer :) I ask because I use these terms interchangeably. Must correct myself if i am making a mistake. |
| 03/24/04 at 16:39:30 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| humble_muslim |
| 03/24/04 at 17:29:59 |
| AA Unlce Tim, I used to call myself a salafi, but now I don't want to make out that I belong to some sort of exclusive club. Calling myself a sunni is just fine for me. |
| NS |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| se7en |
| 03/24/04 at 17:59:20 |
| as salaamu alaykum, brother timbuktu I am not questioning whether the issue is important or not, I am questioning our ability to discuss it in a meaningful way.. or at least mine :P Here is some info about Ibn Qayyim's authoring of the book: [color=black][...] the book is undoubtedly by Ibn al-Qayyim and is attributed to him by over two dozen scholars both in his time and after: Al-Dhahabi [d. 748] in al-Mu'jam al-Mukhtass bi al-Muhaddithin [fo 145] al-Safadi [d. 764] in A'yan al-'Asr [fo 129] and al-Wafi bi al-Wafayat [2:170-172] al-Husayni [d. 765] in Dhayl al-'Ibar [5:282] Ibn Kathir [d. 774] in al-Bidaya wa al-Nihaya [14:234] Ibn Rafi' [d. 774] in al-Wafayat [2:6-7] Ibn Rajab [d. 795] in Dhayl Tabaqat al-Hanabila [2:447] Ibn Nasir al-Din [d. 842] in al-Radd al-Wafir [p. 68] Ibn Hajar [d. 852] in al-Durar al-Kamina [3:400] al-Biqa'i [d. 885] in Sirr al-Ruh (introduction), etc. It also contains internal proofs of his authorship, such as his mention of his own book - now lost - entitled Ma'rifa al-Ruh wa al-Nafs and his identifying two of his direct teachers as Abu al-Hajjaj (al-Mizzi), and Ibn Taymiyya. [/color] wasalaam |
| 03/24/04 at 18:06:51 |
| se7en |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| sohuman |
| 03/24/04 at 19:05:38 |
| [slm], First of all, lemme drink a bebzi. I'm no scholar! [] But I was thinking..........do ya really need to be a scholar to answer the question brot. timbuktu posted? I really don't understand why there is so much argument on this matter? People getting offended......people feeling sad? Why not stick to the question and try to help the brother find an answer? Whew! He wanna know if it is right for people to pray to dead ones for intercession. In Islam, as far as I see it there's some things crystal clear. I agree with sista faith and all she said. The answer is NO. It is not right. Period. You don't wanna go even teeny weeny bit to the possibility of shirk. Sorry but you really wanna do everything you can to avoid tasting the fire of hell. Aint worth it. Now tell me you guys is it really very hard to stop praying to the dead for intercession? Just pray to Allah direct. Is it so hard to tell people pray direct to Allah? "Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth?" : verse from Ayat al kursi. I aint no scholar but I reckon I pretty much understand that line. :-[ |
| Re: intercession and praying by the dead |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 03/24/04 at 20:29:21 |
| [slm] I think what has already been posted by various brothers and sisters in this thread is sufficient, insha Allah, to give an introduction to this topic. And we will leave it at that, insha Allah. I'm afraid any further discussion on this will only be going in circles, trying to re-prove and re-state what someone has already posted. Furthermore, I want to remind each of us, insha Allah, to keep the salafi/sufi discussions out of this message board. Some of these discussions can be important, and beneficial *if done properly*. But the moderating team of this message board has decided, based on past experience and mutual consultation, that these discussions do more harm than good for this particular message board. And Allah (swt) knows best. Finally, I would like to encourage myself and all the rest of you to please take this Deen seriously! We must learn our Deen, starting with the fundamental concepts of Aqeedah and Ibaadaat. Some of us don't even know what Laa ilaha illallah means! Really! Some of us don't even know how to properly purify ourselves for prayers! Sisters, as well as brothers. Most of us have no clue, really, what bid'ah means. Many of us have never read the Qur'an from cover to cover with understanding. It is our lack of knowledge, and sometimes lack of achieving this knowledge through the proper *means*, that causes many of these problems to arise that we deal with on this message board. Every one of us needs to exert him/herself to learn this Deen, through the proper channels (the internet is not a proper channel!). Let's do that insha Allah. May Allah (awj) teach us all that which benefits us, and benefit us from what He has taught us, and increase us all in our knowledge of this Deen. Ameen. This thread is now locked. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah |
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