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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Soiled Qur'an? |
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| Anonymous |
| 03/30/04 at 15:16:42 |
| My son's dog accidently soiled my small, paperback Qur'an. What do I do with it now? |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| superFOB |
| 03/31/04 at 17:18:40 |
| [slm] As muslims we should respect everything written (in general), not just the quran. The superiority of the word of Allah (SWT) over other works is akin to His superiority over the entire creation. Now that demands major adab. Please, don't throw your quran around, don't treat it like a cheap novel, don't take it into the toilet. Make wudu before reading it, sit with adab while reading it, etc etc. Its not a plaything for toddlers, neither for pets. In short, please learn how to respect the word of Allah (SWT). If the copy is soiled completely, I suggest that you clean it up with something (they have good solutions for dog poo I guess) and bury it (some would recommend burning it, but most won't). But don't bury it where your dog buries its bones. |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| Mona |
| 03/31/04 at 17:34:23 |
| [slm] I honestly don't know. Most of us here are no scholars. I am writing to just point out that br. superFOB was likely giving a suggestion (in relation to burial), as he is entitled to his own opinion. I would strongly suggest that the person who posted the question to ask an imam on this. Another alternative is to post your question online (at islamonline.net or islamqa.com) and wait for the answer. take care wassalam |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| superFOB |
| 04/01/04 at 06:05:40 |
| [slm] mona: Hmm, what made you think that it was my own opinion? There can be only three ways to dispose of anything in a respectable manner: bury it, jettison it in the middle of a sea/ocean, or burn it. Thats how corpses are disposed off all over the civilized world. If my memory is not leaving me, these three methods cover all bases, as I have understood from various scholars. Burning is not a respectable thing nowadays now is it. So we are left with the first two, make your pick. But again, they might not be feasible in a non muslim country. To me personally, disposing off the quran is almost a non issue, rather its the lack of adab for the word of Allah (SWT) prevalent among the ummah today which needs urgent measures. anonymous: You might as well be a curious non-muslim, who knows. Let me clarify to the original poster:[list][*]If the text is smudged it can't be used and its best to dispose of it. Why risk misreading the text?[*]If it is still readable but the book goes out of shape, still best to dispose of it. Reading from an ugly looking book would not leave a good impression on the mind or spirit imho. Besides, us muslims routinely dispose of old copies of the quran because they are falling apart.[*]If it comes out perfect after the cleaning, use it. Why lose a perfectly good copy?[/list] |
| 04/01/04 at 06:14:10 |
| superFOB |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| Mona |
| 04/01/04 at 07:34:51 |
| [slm] br. superFOB, I would appreciate it if you referred me to the sources that you used in relation to the manner of disposing a soiled mushaf. As I said I don't know, and would like to read about. As for myself, I have heard about burning and shredding. Since I am no scholar I did not recommend anything and referred the questioner to a place where he can seek expert advice from the scholars themselves. As to the reasons about how I deduced that it was your opinion, well I did not see anything in your post to indicate that the advice you gave was an opinion of a specific scholar, or that it was taken from a certain book. In other words, your post was not quoting anyone or any text, and as such it can only be the product of you thinking. If it is not *your* opinion, then please provide the source, or maybe just mention that it was taken from so and so. Take care wassalam |
| 04/01/04 at 07:35:20 |
| Mona |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| Aadhil |
| 04/01/04 at 12:26:10 |
| [slm] [quote author=superFOB link=board=madrasa;num=1080677802;start=0#3 date=04/01/04 at 06:05:40][slm] Burning is not a respectable thing nowadays now is it.[/list][/quote] And how is it not a respectable thing? Actually id choose the burning method since it was soiled by a dog. If you bury it it is still soiled (assuming first that it would be very difficult to be cleaned completely). Burning would probably be the best thing :) Just my four pennies worth (The amount increased because of inflation :P) [slm] |
| 04/01/04 at 12:28:25 |
| Aadhil |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| Trustworthy |
| 04/01/04 at 13:55:58 |
| >:( >:( >:( Is it me, or does this sound like a mockery of our religion? I think he should kill the pup and then burn the Qur'an and drink it. Harsh? Dogs aren't supposed to be house pets. Why anonymous? Dumb*** >:( >:( >:( |
| 04/01/04 at 13:57:07 |
| Trustworthy |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| superFOB |
| 04/01/04 at 18:03:35 |
| [quote author=Mona link=board=madrasa;num=1080677802;start=0#4 date=04/01/04 at 07:34:51]As for myself, I have heard about burning and shredding. Since I am no scholar I did not recommend anything and referred the questioner to a place where he can seek expert advice from the scholars themselves.[/quote] I forgot about shredding, jak. [quote author=Muslim link=board=madrasa;num=1080677802;start=0#5 date=04/01/04 at 12:26:10]Actually id choose the burning method since it was soiled by a dog.[/quote] I mentioned that the copy be cleaned first, and reused if it is in good condition. [quote author=Trustworthy link=board=madrasa;num=1080677802;start=0#6 date=04/01/04 at 13:55:58]Is it me, or does this sound like a mockery of our religion? I think he should kill the pup and then burn the Qur'an and drink it. [/quote] Maybe its just an honest question. |
| 04/01/04 at 18:04:16 |
| superFOB |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| traveller |
| 04/01/04 at 18:13:20 |
| [slm] Hmm, you know I think that harshness is really inappropriate here, and that we really need to work on our compassion and mercy towards our brothers and sisters, and towards our fellow living creatures on this planet, including that dog. I am really disturbed by Trustworthy's comment regarding killing that dog. Accidents happen. Sometimes they are foreseeable and sometimes not. We do our best to prevent them, but sometimes they happen despite our best efforts and intentions--so then we go on and try to make things right, and try to learn from our mistakes. We also try to think the best and make excuses for our brothers and sisters. Perhaps the dog is a watchdog, a hunting dog, a guide dog for the blind or a similar service animal--all beneficial purposes for which it is completely halal to own a dog. Perhaps the animal is ill and had an accident where normally it could be trusted? What if the Quran was in a bag in the back seat of a car, next to a cage carrying the animal on the way to the vet? I could go on....but I hope my point is made. In fact, anon, I would say that you shouldn't feel obligated to explain the details to us in Internet-world if it's not relevant to the question at hand. The fact is that it has happened (perhaps in spite of the best adab, who knows?) and the person is concerned enough to make the effort to try to find out what, Islamically, the best thing to do is. I think we need to recognize that, and we need to encourage each other, and we need to help each other learn. Posting articles on the adab of handling the Quran, and adab toward books in general would benefit me and most of us here as a reminder or a source of new knowledge. Accusing the original poster of having bad adab, and of not caring about the Quran or Islam is insulting, really doesn't help anyone, and may promote bad feelings and feelings of alienation, if it is a new convert it may even risk distancing them from Muslims or the deen--all things we need less not more of. As to the original question, I don't know what one does with a Quran that has been soiled in such a manner, especially since books are generally difficult to clean, so as others have suggested, I would consult a local scholar if at all possible. wasalaam, hope |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| rkhan |
| 04/02/04 at 00:29:26 |
| [slm] whatever be the reason for the mishap, whether this post is a hoax or real, I'm very very distressed to read this. This is the other extreme -- on the one hand we hv the Qur'an stowed away on the highest shelf wrapped in layers of cloth and gathering dust in many houses , and on the other hand this casual, careless handling of Allaah's Book. It's unfortunate and very very avoidable. Under the circumstances the only constructive thing to do is post some info on the rules of reading the Qur'an: 1. Only a ritually clean (taahir) person can touch the Qur'aan. It is said in the Qur'aan itself, [i] laa yamassuhu illal muttaharoon...none can touch it except those who are in a pure state [/i] It is permissible to recite the Qur'aan from memory in an unclean state. 2. The Qur'aan should be touched after making oneself ritually clean with wudu (ablution). One can read the Qur'aan from memory without wudu. 3. It is prohibited to use the Qur'aan as a pillow, carry it whole or portions of it to the toilet or other unclean places because of its degradation. 4. Worn out pieces /pages of the Qur'aan should preferably buried in a clean place...re: shredding/burning it's best to consult a knowledgeable scholar. 5. While gifting the Qur'aan to non-Muslims, it's best to give a translation which does not contain the original Arabic and to inform them of the pre-requisites in handling the Qur'aan and reciting it. There are rules of reading, reciting and handling the Qur'aan both external (re: rules of the reciter's personal cleanliness, etiquette of sitting and placing the Qur'aan, words to be recited before commencing the recitation, during and after it) and internal (re:the state of the reciter's mind). Unless we apprise ourselves of them and treat the Qur'aan with the respect and reverence it deserves, we will be denying ourselves the blessings of learning from it. |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| Trustworthy |
| 04/02/04 at 02:43:10 |
| [slm] You shouldn't be so disturbed. My anger is due to the mishandling of Allah's words. I should've gone rkhan's route as to instructions on how to properly care and handle the Qur'an. I was just kidding on the killing the pup. Really I was. I just wanted to see the poster's reaction to my response. I would not kill the dog for doing such a thing. If such a thing ever happened, I would've punished the person for letting it happen. No worries. Allah's creatures are Allah's creatures and I only kill unless I'm going to eat it and I even can't handle that part. Really, did you think that I could even harm a living thing? I could see that, but that's just because you don't know me well enough yet. Jazakh...for the recourse rkhan. Ma-assalama... |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| Tesseract |
| 04/02/04 at 15:49:02 |
| Assalamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullah, [quote]1. Only a ritually clean (taahir) person can touch the Qur'aan. It is said in the Qur'aan itself, laa yamassuhu illal muttaharoon...none can touch it except those who are in a pure state It is permissible to recite the Qur'aan from memory in an unclean state.[/quote] As far as I know, it is NOT allowed to even recite Qur'an if one is in the state of impurity (i-e ghusl or tayammum is wajib upon the person). However, by being in an "unclean state", if u meant being without wudu, then that is correct that one can recite Qur'an without wudu. Thought, I should clarify that because that was a bit confusing. Allahu Ta'ala A'lam. Wassalam. |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| rkhan |
| 04/03/04 at 00:10:35 |
| [slm] jazaakumullaah for clarifying, bro. I got these points from a bk on tajweed called "The Science of Reciting the Qur'aan" by M. I Surty published by the Islaamic foundation uk. The scholar who wrote the bk did mean taahir -- as in with ablution. |
| 04/03/04 at 07:45:00 |
| rkhan |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| Laila_Y_A |
| 04/03/04 at 22:07:18 |
| >:( :o That is the WORST set of replies I have read for a while! SHAME on some of you!!! Without knowing the poster's circumstances, you summarily condemned him/her, then tried to laugh part of it off as a joke. If the poster was someone new to Islam, and searching- do you think you helped point them to the way of Islam? HAH!! More than likely it worked the opposite, and another human turns from the true path. Perhaps just once you might try thinking before you post a reply. How will this be accepted? Is my meaning clear? Am I answering a Believer, or one searching? Does this make sense to you guys, or am I just "Miss Manners" banging my head on the brick wall? a disgruntled :-) ~ Laila |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| rkhan |
| 04/04/04 at 00:03:00 |
| [slm] I'm not trying to defend any thoughtless post here, but I think the anonymous poster should hv clarified the circumstances of the mishap. It is quite understandable that a one-line post on a serious desecration like that would be mistaken for a hoax or cause outrage. Think of it this way: if a person had/was given a million dollars would they leave it around carelessly to be desecrated by a dog? Subhaanallah, the Qur'aan -- which is Our Creator's final, uncorrupted message to mankind -- is infinitely more precious than that. |
| 04/04/04 at 00:17:22 |
| rkhan |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| timbuktu |
| 04/04/04 at 10:04:23 |
| [quote author=Bulwark of Islam link=board=madrasa;num=1080677802;start=10#11 date=04/02/04 at 15:49:02] As far as I know, it is NOT allowed to even recite Qur'an if one is in the state of impurity (i-e ghusl or tayammum is wajib upon the person). However, by being in an "unclean state"[/quote] I don't know!!! If I remember correctly, there is a difference of opinion about this, and some scholars consider it permissible for a Haidha or junub to recite the Quran from memory. Only they are not allowed to enter the mosque in this state. The Quran is not to be recited in a graveyard or in the bathroom. but let me get back after confirming, which may take some days. or if bro bhaloo or someone else is able to post something before then. |
| 04/04/04 at 11:02:15 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| rkhan |
| 04/04/04 at 11:39:40 |
| [slm] Bro, there's a v. lengthy article on the requirement of tahara for touching/reading the Qur'aan which is from Sh Jamal Zarabozo's bk "How to Approach and Understand the Quran" (Denver, CO: Dar Makkah). The article analyzes all the differences of opinion with reference to ahadith etc. It is posted the MSA University of Houston website and they've specifically prohibited copies of the article, so those interested can check it out at: http://www.uh.edu/campus/msa/articles/zara.html All bks on the science of reading the Qur'aan go into detail into the tahara requirements for those in a state of ceremonial impurity (janabah) and women who are menstruating/ having post-partum bleeding, but I didnt think that would be appropriate in this thread...since this is talking about something entirely different. Perhaps we could start a diff thread for those who are interested, inshallah. |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| Trustworthy |
| 04/05/04 at 12:28:19 |
| [slm]... Sister Liala… Disgruntled one? Ok. You thought that there were actually more than one shameful reaction to this post? I thought that I was the only one that took this post as an insult to our deen. Everyone else here seemed to take a different approach as to correct the situation. Like me, I’m sure the poster lurks in here just see if there are any replies. I just want to see that poster respond to me. S/he probably posted to cause a ruckus. Unfortunately, that ruckus was caused by me. So you are all the better half of me. I still think it’s an insult. But despite that, I should’ve been more thoughtful, huh? 1st things 1st, to the poster of this post…do reply as to clarify your situation. And be assured that I will sincerely apologize if you meant well and so on and so forth. BECAUSE in Islam, like every post here, suggests you to keep the holy book out of harms way. It is God’s words, you know? To Muslims, those words run extremely deep in our blood and to have it disgraced like that, well….the best suggestion is to never let it happen again. For the soiled Qur’an (Allah forgive us all), I believe the cleansing of it is to actually burn it. Because if we touched a dog, we first have to rub our hands in dirt 7 times and then wash them thoroughly 7 times. How do you get rid of the soiled smell? Burning the Qur’an as needed is considered Al-Mudhabi-you are not rewarded nor are you punished for it. There are plenty of Qur’ans to go around, insha-Allah. 2ndly: BECAUSE in Islam, we do not have dogs as pets. They are only used for protection and should be kept outside, however, taken care of as well because they are God’s creatures and to harm God’s creatures not in defense is to burn in Hellfire unless accidental like stepping on an ant and so on and so forth. 3rdly: Unknowingly or not, you should’ve been more respectful as to clearify such a post before you post it knowing how passionate some Muslims *ahem* let’s say moi gets about these things. Only an atheist would disrespect ANY holy scripture. So if you are new to our religion…here’s your chance. I am your friend and not the latter. Ma-assalamah…. Trying to be un-difficult. |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| Tesseract |
| 04/01/04 at 15:14:20 |
| Assalamu 'alaikum, Is there a lesson to be learnt from the following hadeeth? Narrated Abu Huraira: A Bedouin stood up and started making water in the mosque. The people caught him but the Prophet ordered them to leave him and to pour a bucket or a tumbler of water over the place where he had passed the urine. The Prophet then said, "You have been sent to make things easy and not to make them difficult." Let us not express our anger first and then give the other person, the chance to clarify his/her situation, rather, give him/her the chance to clarify his/her situation first, and then express our disappointment, *if* the situation requires that. Allahu Ta'ala A'lam. Wassalamu 'alaikum. |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| humble_muslim |
| 04/05/04 at 15:52:33 |
| AA Ok, I'm angry. I agree with Laila 100% on this. Mashallah BOI, perfect example. If the Prophet (SAW) hadn't treated the beduoin that way, would he have stayed a muslim? And isn't pissing in the mosque worse than a dog doing his stuff on the Quran? And this was Masjid Al Nabi, don't forget, the second holiest site in Islam, not Tooting Broadway Mosque. If my memory serves me right, a few years ago we had a German revert called Andrea who almost un-reverted because she had a dog, and was getting some nasty posts about it on this board (anyone else remember this?). Why do we expect every single revert to become a Wali Allah within 5 minutes of reverting (anger now building up inside me)? For God's sake, haven't we all made big mistakes out of pure ignorance? Yet again, the only message which seems to come out of this thread is : engage brain in gear before clicking on "Post". We really lack the himah and dawah manners of the Prophet(SAW). |
| NS |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| timbuktu |
| 04/05/04 at 18:52:56 |
| [slm] while agreeing with all that is said about the hikmah and dawah, and hoping we all get a fair share of this, me being more in need of it, I think there is another important ingredient that sister Trustworthy displayed, and that needs to be demonstrated as well. and that is hammiyah ( ÍãíÉ ) or ghairah ( ÛíÑÉ ), or defending honor. So, all in all, her post and that of sister rkhan should have shown to all (particularly the anonymous poster) that while there is patience and tolerance among muslims, there is also this feeling of wanting to defend the honor. This is particularly important because I have discovered a type of people on IoL I meet many non-muslim posters there who simply want to incite and insult. |
| 04/05/04 at 19:21:47 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| Trustworthy |
| 04/05/04 at 19:08:31 |
| [slm].. OK. OK. OK. I already admitted that I was the bad guy. I thought that the Admins would’ve already deleted this post by now and add another post in reference to this one and put some hadith for an answer. Patience used to be my virtue, but now a days with all this chaos, anger gets the better of me. I’m trying, really I am, to make sense of what people say about Islam sometimes and then make sense of why some Muslims sit back and do nothing. Dang…this post reminds me of another one I replied to where everyone beat on me about a woman cop who was a Muslimah and a single mother of 7. If I remember correctly, I was the only one who saw something wrong with that. But I know when to stop. [17:54] It is your Lord that knoweth you best; if He please, He granteth you mercy, or if He pleases, Punishment: We have not sent thee to be a disposer of their affairs for them. So…you all win. I won’t reply to this post any more nor will I look at it. However, I will leave with this last note: [28:56] …. GOD is the only One who guides in accordance with His will, and in accordance with His knowledge of those who deserve the guidance. If they (converts) choose the dog over Allah…well…I can not say anything more. Allahu-alam. Jazakhullahu-khairun Bro Timbuktu. Ma-assalamah….. |
| 04/05/04 at 19:10:10 |
| Trustworthy |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| Anonymous |
| 04/09/04 at 03:18:36 |
| salams can you please put this in the soiled Quran thread. if we are not allowed to recite the quran in a state of impurity, it means women are not allowed to recite it during the period of menstruation? is this rite, pls. confirm. thank u. |
| Re: Soiled Qur'an? |
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| Tesseract |
| 04/09/04 at 13:52:43 |
| Assalamu 'alaikum, [quote]can you please put this in the soiled Quran thread. if we are not allowed to recite the quran in a state of impurity, it means women are not allowed to recite it during the period of menstruation? is this rite, pls. confirm. thank u. [/quote] Is it permissible for a menstruating woman to recite the Qur.aan and books of supplications? Question: Is it allowed for a menstruating woman to read a book of supplications on the Day of 'Arafah, given the fact that the book contains Qur.aanic verses? Response: There is no harm in a menstruating or post-partum bleeding woman reading the books of supplications that are written for the rites of the pilgrimage. In fact, there is nothing wrong with her reciting the Qur.aan according to the correct opinion. There is no authentic, clear text prohibiting a menstruating or post-partum bleeding woman from reciting the Qur.aan. The thing that is narrated is concerned with the sexually defiled person only, as such should not recite the Qur.aan while he is sexually defiled. This is based on the hadeeth of 'Alee. As for the menstruating or post-partum bleeding woman, there is the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Umar which states, "Neither the menstruating woman nor the sexually defiled person is to recite anything from the Qur.aan." However, this is weak. This is because it is from the narrations of Ismaa'eel ibn Iyyash on the authority of people from the Hijaaz and he is weak when he narrates from them. However, she may recite from her memory without touching the Qur.aan. As for the sexually defiled person, he/she may not even recite the Qur.aan from memory or touch the mushaf until he/she makes ghusl. The difference between the two is that the amount of time one is sexually defiled is very short as he may make ghusl as soon as he has done the act with his spouse. The amount of time is not long and he is in control of its length as he may make ghusl whenever he wishes. Even if he cannot find water, he can make tayammum and pray or recite the Qur.aan. However, the menstruating or post-partum bleeding woman does not have control over their lengths, such control is in the hand of Allaah. Menstruation and post-partum bleeding take days. Therefore, it is allowed for them to recite the Qur.aan so that they do not forget what they have memorized and so they will not lose the merits of reciting it. It is also so they may learn the laws of the Sharee’ah from the Book of Allaah. Therefore it is even more so permissible for her to read the books of supplications that have verses and hadeeth intermixed with them. This is the correct view and is the correct opinion of the scholars- may Allaah have mercy on them- on that point. Shaykh Ibn Baaz Fataawa al-Mar.ah Wallahu Ta'ala A'lam. Wassalam. |
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