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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Not afraid of God? |
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| amika |
| 03/30/04 at 16:44:18 |
| [slm], I know of some non-muslim people who say they do not fear God. They do not fear God because they feel they are good people and have not done anything wrong. So what is there to be afraid about?! I know that no religion but Islam (complete submission to God) is acceptable to Allah. Those who refuse to submit will be cast into Hell. Isn't that sufficient reason to be really afraid?! |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| jannah |
| 03/30/04 at 17:41:03 |
| [wlm] There's nothing wrong with believing that as a non-Muslim. If i was non-Muslim I'd think the same thing hopefully. That life is about doing good and serving others. And if I believed God to be Just and Good, why would I fear God then? However, the point to understand is that we are humans and sometimes "good" means different things to different people. Our personal definition of good is not necessarily our Creator's definition because there is alot we don't know or understand. And there is a whole component of good that has to do with belief and intentions that is just as important. That's why clear rejection after understanding Islam in its true form is what is punishable because it is a choice against the truth a person knows. But telling non-Muslims to convert otherwise they're going to Hell really doesn't seem like good dawah to me.. I dunno about anyone else. |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| se7en |
| 03/31/04 at 12:54:08 |
| as salaamu alaykum, A lot of my non-Muslim friends have asked me this before.. "Do you think I'm going to go to Hell?" or, "Am I going to go to Hell in your religion?" I think that you have to understand what the person is *really* asking you, understand where they are coming from, before jumping in with an answer that sounds good to your own ears. In actuality, the underlying question they were really asking me was, "do you think I will be cast into Hell simply because I do not call myself a Muslim, and do you think you are guaranteed Heaven simply because you do?" or, "do you believe God is merciful?" or, "Is your faith a tolerant one?" or, "If I am a good person why would I be punished?" I think instead of talking about hell-fire, it may be better to just talk about the distinctiveness of Islam in relation to other faiths and traditions. There are some faiths that teach that as long as you have a certain belief, you will achieve salvation, regardless of what actions you may commit. And there are other traditions that teach that it is your actions alone, regardless of what your beliefs are, that will grant you salvation. While as Muslims, we believe that you need *both* -- belief in God and to do good deeds.. and we always ask for God's mercy and compassion. wasalaamu alaykum |
| 03/31/04 at 12:55:49 |
| se7en |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| timbuktu |
| 03/31/04 at 19:10:39 |
| [slm] I think se7en has touched a important point. It is important to see where the questioner is coming from. Rather than looking at them from our eyes, we should look to see what they are raelly saying, and what will touch a chord with them. On IoL, I found some muslims using the "logs of fire" phrase, and many americans were turned off, because it is also the language used by the "fire and brimstone" preachers of the Bible belt, and these americans thought themselves rather intellectual. |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| amika |
| 03/31/04 at 21:58:55 |
| [slm], I haven't said anything to those who say that they do not fear God because they are good people. I have not told them that they are going to Hell. All this was not implied. And if that is what some of you have understood, then I suffer from a very nasty fault of being unable to express myself clearly. My question is rather to ask what is it that we must say when people say such things? |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| Doha_03 |
| 03/31/04 at 22:35:52 |
| slm, Well, I would say: Don't you believe God is capable of all things? Don't you believe that he has all the power imaginable and then some? Then why aren't you afraid of what He could do? Do you honestly believe that you have done every good and are free from sin? No human is perfect and everyone has sinned, you should be afraid of the punishment from those sins. YOU might feel that you have done nothing wrong, but you are a mere human. Do you think that you are capable of judging your sins? Leave that to God. Your punishment for your sins should also be of some concern. I know I'm afraid of the sins that I have committed unknowingly, and continue to committ, and I always wonder if I have repented enough and if it is getting accepted. Wasalaam, Doha |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| timbuktu |
| 03/31/04 at 22:39:55 |
| [quote author=amika link=board=lighthouse;num=1080683059;start=0#4 date=03/31/04 at 21:58:55] I haven't said anything to those who say that they do not fear God because they are good people. I have not told them that they are going to Hell. All this was not implied. And if that is what some of you have understood, then I suffer from a very nasty fault of being unable to express myself clearly. My question is rather to ask what is it that we must say when people say such things?[/quote] :) we believe you sister, and I don't think any one implied that you said anything like this. It is more of a general discussion. The answer is that we have to understand the person first. One can say to that person that "with such a kind personality as yours, and with your quest for the Truth, I sure hope Allah will guide you", or something like that. Incidentally, some people do need shocks to come to their senses. So, it is all judgment on our part, as to what the approach that will get the person to hear Allah's message. Perhaps the best is to study how the prophet (saw) called the non-believers to Islam. I mean the Quran also talks of Hell, so we shouldn't leave that out. Got to go to office, so will look at this thread later. |
| 03/31/04 at 23:40:41 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| amika |
| 04/01/04 at 00:05:39 |
| [quote author=Doha link=board=lighthouse;num=1080683059;start=0#5 date=03/31/04 at 22:35:52] Well, I would say: Don't you believe God is capable of all things? Don't you believe that he has all the power imaginable and then some? Then why aren't you afraid of what He could do? Do you honestly believe that you have done every good and are free from sin? No human is perfect and everyone has sinned, you should be afraid of the punishment from those sins. YOU might feel that you have done nothing wrong, but you are a mere human. Do you think that you are capable of judging your sins? Leave that to God. Your punishment for your sins should also be of some concern. I know I'm afraid of the sins that I have committed unknowingly, and continue to committ, and I always wonder if I have repented enough and if it is getting accepted. [/quote] Sis. Doha, thank you so much for your answer. This was something I was thinking of saying myself. But I never got around to saying anything. Although my heart is screaming inside of me "How on earth can you not fear God!!!" Please, I would appreciate more suggestions on what to say. I personally see no good in anybody whose heart is devoid of the fear of Allah. People who believe they are safe and secure because they imagine they are good......because they have not killed anyone or harmed anyone...... this feeling of safety and security is from none other than Satan the accursed. He has deluded them into believing that God will not punish them. My own relatives who are kafir live a carefree life, without any fear of God. They tell me not to worry about them. But I find myself fearing for them. |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| Doha_03 |
| 04/01/04 at 00:53:08 |
| slm, I'm happy that it helped! :) You could also use examples and stuff...such as: Pretend you did something wrong in school. You go through the whole day not getting in trouble. The last hour the principal calls you down to his/her office. Wouldn't you be afraid? Now put this example in life. And the principal becomes God. When he calls you to ask of your deeds, will you not be afraid? Afraid of the punishment, afraid of the shame and disappointment, afraid that even though you have done good, you haven't done ENOUGH good. Who has control over what happens? GOD. Who will knows your fate? GOD. Who has the power to forgive you, or send you straight to hell? GOD. Who knows your intentions behind everything you do? GOD. Now, knowing that God knows more than you know about yourself and everything else, and has that much power.....I'd be scared! Wasalaam, Doha |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| Trustworthy |
| 04/01/04 at 14:21:31 |
| [slm] An actual reality, these good people do fear God even if they think they don't. Why else are they good people? They don't want to anger God hence their fear to. Ask then if they're afraid to anger Him. However, if they don't believe that there is a Hellfire, then they really don't need to fear God. No matter what they did, there's only a Heaven to go to after life. Or if there is no such thing as a Hereafter. If death is it and I will no longer exist at all then the only punishment I will receive is the punishment I put upon myself on Earth. That's how I see it. Hope this helps. Ma-assalama.... |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| sal |
| 04/01/04 at 17:56:24 |
| [quote author=jannah link=board=lighthouse;num=1080683059;start=0#1 date=03/30/04 at 17:41:03][wlm] But telling non-Muslims to convert otherwise they're going to Hell really doesn't seem like good dawah to me.. [/quote] This is very true and we need to not say this to anyone whatever his faith is. Every body believes his religion is the correct one so we need to be flexible and listen then show what our religion says and is But some times people make sins despite they know they will be punished by him however they cant say they dont fear GOD |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| bhaloo |
| 04/01/04 at 19:51:05 |
| [slm] When talking to non-Muslims, especially Christians, Jews, and Hindus, I like to focus on the similiarities and then try and show them within their books how it mentions Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and then go to the differences. |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| UmmWafi |
| 04/02/04 at 01:57:57 |
| [wlm] [quote author=amika link=board=lighthouse;num=1080683059;start=0#7 date=04/01/04 at 00:05:39] I personally see no good in anybody whose heart is devoid of the fear of Allah. People who believe they are safe and secure because they imagine they are good......because they have not killed anyone or harmed anyone...... this feeling of safety and security is from none other than Satan the accursed. He has deluded them into believing that God will not punish them. [/quote] Should there then be only one way to approach Allah SWT ? That is through fearing Him ? Let's say, for argument's sake, I don't have fear in my heart for Allah SWT. But not because, as implied above, I feel myself secure from sins, but because I know I have sinned and have accepted the fact that I have sinned. I may fear facing the punishments for those sins but I do not fear the Commander of those punishments because I deem Him Just. Instead, what I have in my heart is deep sadness and shame. Deep sadness because I have transgressed. Deep sadness because I was weak in will. Deep sadness because I have been an ingrate. I feel deep shame to face Him on the Day of Judgement becaue of my ingratitude. I feel deep shame for letting my Prophet down. I feel deep shame to claim the title of Muslim and yet did what I have done. Is there then no good in me ? Hmmm.... Allahu 'alim Wassalam |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| amika |
| 04/03/04 at 12:33:45 |
| [quote author=UmmWafi link=board=lighthouse;num=1080683059;start=10#12 date=04/02/04 at 01:57:57] Let's say, for argument's sake, I don't have fear in my heart for Allah SWT. Is there then no good in me ? Hmmm.... Allahu 'alim [/quote] First and foremost let me say that I do not wish to enter into an argument with you. Second, I do not know what is in people's hearts unless they tell me. So if they tell me they do not fear Allah then I really do not see any good in them. No matter how nice and kind they may be. I stay away from such people. This is the standard I go by. And if it seems rigid, strict and inflexible, I do not really care. I'm not asking anyone to adopt the same attitude. You are welcome to be nice to all people regardless of whether they fear God or not. Just that I have set certain standards for MYSELF. And please! I am not imposing those standards on anyone. Feel free to disagree with me. "Innallazina yakhshawna rabbahum bil gaybi, lahum magfiratun wa ajrun kabir. Wa asiru qawlakum awij haru bih, innahu aliimum bidatis sudur." "Dhalikal kitabu la rayba fih. Huddalil muttaqin." The Qur'an tells us to fear Allah so that we may learn righteousness. It is a guide to those who are "muttaqin".....those who have taqwa.....those who fear Allah. Why fear Allah? Because He has the power to punish and throw you into Hell. Many people think they are good. Doesn't matter what religion. But as for me, I do not think I am good at all. There is only one who is good. And that is Allah. |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| Mossy |
| 04/03/04 at 18:58:57 |
| Salam, Can I hesitate to venture that taqwa goes beyond just fear and includes higher emotions and world views too? [url=http://www.jannah.org/articles/taqwakhutba.html]Here's[/url] a khutbah on this site about it.. Looking at the derivation and it's association with phrases such as ittaqu'Allah, which also doesn't quite translate as the standard fear, I'd say it relates more to a source based in love and a guarding of this appreciation and willingness to act upon one's moral conscience and within the boundaries of this.. ws Mossy |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| Mona |
| 04/03/04 at 19:00:38 |
| [slm] I was just thinking about this issue. It may help to know in what context does this this revalation, i.e. not fearing God, come up. Do these people just make a statement like this out of the blue? Or is it the response to a specific question? Many people who are not muslim yet, have a different way of thinking. Staying away from ill behaviour is considered human decency and the conduct of a civilized person. I don't know, but I don't think that God is a big factor in the decision making process because the lifesyles have become more and more secularized. In otherwords, morality is no longer being derived from a specific religion. That does not mean that they have no religion, or no morals, because they do. Except that religion has a different role and a different impact on daily behaviour. All I am trying to say, things look different from the perspective of non-muslims. We have to be aware of this. Also, I think the fear of Allah develops in the heart of a muslim with time, and happens as the person becomes more spiritual and more aware of his/her shortcomings, imperfections and weaknesses. Yet the fear of Allah is always associated with the hope of His mercy. It takes *time* to develop fear of Allah/God. When we call other people to Islam, it is true that we only have to do the "call" and the rest is from Allah. Yet we have to approach the people in a way that would be suitable to them. The prophet [saw] used to tell the sahaba who were sent to Yemen to call the people to Islam: [i]"bash-shiroo wa la tunafferoo, yasseroo wa la tu'asseroo" [/i]or "give glad tidings and don't scare the people, make things easy not hard" - Sahih Muslim. Just few thoughts on the subject. :-) take care wassalam |
| 04/03/04 at 19:01:43 |
| Mona |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| sohuman |
| 04/03/04 at 23:08:57 |
| [slm], I kinda think this whole thread going in wrong direction. Sure everybody agrees you don't tell nobody about hell and stuff if they remain non-muslim. I mean, did anyone actually do such a thing or actually say to somebody "hey you're gonna go to Hell if you don't convert?" I mean who in their right mind gonna talk to non-muslims like that? If it was me I wouldn't even wanna mention hell. But go about it like in a round about way. Maybe I won't even say nothing. But that is not the issue is it? Then why's there talk about it? Me doesn't understand. Sorry I'm just stupid or something. So far I think sist. Doha the only one who's really answered the question. Her suggestions are very good in my opinion. She's one person who's stuck to the point. Bebzi for ya, sista Doha [] :) :) :) |
| 04/03/04 at 23:09:28 |
| sohuman |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| timbuktu |
| 04/04/04 at 08:11:03 |
| [slm] Thanks, brother Mossy for the link from bro Mossy's link: http://www.jannah.org/articles/taqwakhutba.html [quote] We have seen from the above presentation that we should heed Allah, fear Him, love Him, seek refuge in Him, praise Him and call upon Him. We should request Him to guide us, to make us good worshippers, to keep us on the straight path, and to make us of the muttaqeen. If we live as muttaqeen, we will, indeed, be among the best creatures of Allah, and among the best worshippers of Allah.[/quote] there are two aspects of "fearing" Allah (swt) 1. from the view of the non-believer. In the Quran, we read the prophets (pbut) telling their nations to "Fear Allah, and obey me". Since there will be no more prophets (pbut) to come, this Ummah is to carry on the task of Dawah, but how is it to be done? The last prophet's life and instructions are our guide. We have to be nice to people, call them to the deen in a pleasant manner, but that does not exclude telling the most obstinate of them that if they do not listen, they are headed in the wrong direction. 2. and from the view of the believer. I think I did point out in an earlier thread by sister amkamb that eemaan lies between fear and hope. Umar (ra) is reported to have said: If I were to be told that there is only one person who is going to hell, I would think that person is me; and if I were to be told that there is only one person going to Jannah, I would think that is me. So, in reality I do not find any point of contention between any two posters here. :) and may Allah (swt) guide us all to and along the right path always. aameen |
| 04/05/04 at 06:51:08 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| UmmWafi |
| 04/05/04 at 03:24:44 |
| [slm] [quote author=amika link=board=lighthouse;num=1080683059;start=10#13 date=04/03/04 at 12:33:45] First and foremost let me say that I do not wish to enter into an argument with you[/quote] This is a discussion board. Ideas posted here are implicitly understood to be for public consumption. It does therefore naturally mean that those very same ideas are meant for public discussion, unless the author otherwise stated. Sister, I respect your thoughts and your [i]rights[/i] to those thoughts. My reply was discussive in intention, certainly not argumentative. We all come here to share with and learn from each other, not to restrict. So, feel free to think what and how you want to. Inshaa Allah, you will be rewarded for your good niyyah. In the meantime I shall take care to be more careful in replying to posts. Jazakillah for your clarification. To the board : As an aside, my reply was actually open to all, bringing up another side to understanding the concept of fear. Too often we impose on our relationship with the Divine our mortal concerns and habits. I was just provoking the thought that perhaps fear in this context is different to the fear we know from habit and instincts. But then again, I might just be gibberish :) Allahu 'alim. Wassalam |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| amika |
| 04/05/04 at 04:02:33 |
| [quote author=Mona link=board=lighthouse;num=1080683059;start=10#15 date=04/03/04 at 19:00:38] Also, I think the fear of Allah develops in the heart of a muslim with time, and happens as the person becomes more spiritual and more aware of his/her shortcomings, imperfections and weaknesses. Yet the fear of Allah is always associated with the hope of His mercy. It takes *time* to develop fear of Allah/God. When we call other people to Islam, it is true that we only have to do the "call" and the rest is from Allah. Yet we have to approach the people in a way that would be suitable to them. [/quote] Sis. Mona, I agree with you. It takes time to develop the fear of Allah. It grows when we have a better understanding about His attributes and what is written in the Qur'an, specifically when Hellfire is described. We know that Allah's punishment is for real. I've noticed there is a lot of talk about Allah's Mercy, His Compassion and Generosity. But not as much about His Wrath. It kind of reminds me about my encounter with Christianity. My Christian friends said that God is Most Loving and Forgiving. And He would certainly not throw His children in Hell. They did not believe that a loving God could create Hell. And guess what? I was looking on the Internet when doing Bible study. Not a single place in the entire website that mentioned Hell! I even typed in the search word "hell". And got very very very little info on it. Anyway, there are three types of people I have talked to: The first one believes in God. But not a muslim. I asked him "Do you fear God?" He says "No. I haven't done anything wrong." The second one doesn't believe in God. I tell them about God's justice in the Hereafter and those who are evil will be punished. To this they say....."We are good people." And last type of person I talked to (a Christian): Here's how the conversation went: "Do you fear God?" "We do not think God is to be feared. God is to be respected. We respect God." I am really at a loss to know what to say to them. I mean how do we explain why God should be feared?! And by the way, sis UmmWafi, please accept my apologies for writing in a temper. I am really trying to hold my tongue and not get into any argument. I don't think I am doing a good job of it. But I'm going to keep trying. Holding the tongue is one of the guaranteed ways to salvation. |
| Re: Not afraid of God? |
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| ForS |
| 04/09/04 at 00:04:39 |
| [slm] Ok I didn't read everything ;) , but something weird happened to me, that made me fear Allah more. (April 8/04) I was doing my work in class (Biology) and I took the notes from the teacher and just wrote them up and I was being good and all. However, the next class which I was supposed to go to was English.... and I was late writing notes down. (I stayed in class doing it) then I left to the cafe to eat and instead ditch English because I was late from writing notes down. So then along I go munching on my sandwich and drinking on some juice knowing that I am safe from the English room. All the sudden I am sitting there and my English teacher comes into the cafeteria and in my mind I thought, "Oh ****, honestly didn't know if I should run or not." However, she came and asked me what am I doing here. I told her the truth about writing notes and that I was late for her class, however, this made me afraid of Allah more. The reason is, about 3 days ago from today she got an assitance teacher and it enables her to leave the classroom and go anywhere for a couple of minutes just to eat or talk with other teachers (I dunno) lol......... but I was trying to hide from her, and Allah knew that I was hiding from a trouble. She comes unexpectedly and this probably never has happened to a student I know from the school ever (in my life). This goes to show, "Your not afraid and you think your safe? God could change that around, and make your face red in fear." <--- I was scared to death seeing my teacher in the classroom, and Wallah I wouldn't even try ditching a class ever again. Shocking :o . [wlm] P.S. My blood was pumping, and there is no way ever that I'll be able to ditch a class once in my life. EVER! ;-) |
| 04/09/04 at 00:13:28 |
| ForS |
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