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Allah or Jesus?

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Allah or Jesus?
Kathy
04/04/04 at 12:18:19
[slm]
How Would you respond to this e-mail?


Allah or Jesus?
 by Rick Mathes ... a leader in prison ministry

Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for
maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session
there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic,
Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their belief systems.

 I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The
Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a
video.

 After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers.  
When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and
asked:"Please,correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and
clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels
of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all
Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you
give me the definition of an infidel?"

There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he
replied,  "Non-believers!"

I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of
Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they
can go to Heaven. Is that correct?"

The _expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that
of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
He sheepishly replied, "Yes."

I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John
Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley
ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven!"

The Imam was speechless.  I continued, "I also have problem with being your
friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill
me. Let me ask you a question. Would you rather have your Allah who tells
you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you
because I am going to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?"

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame. Needless
to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the 'Diversification' training
seminar were not happy with Rick's way of dealing with the Islamic Imam and
exposing the truth about the Muslim's beliefs.

 I think everyone in the US should be required to read this, but with  the
liberal justice system, liberal media, and the ACLU, there is no way this
will be widely publicized. Please pass this on to all your e-mail contacts

This is a true story and the author, Rick Mathes, is a well known leader in
prison ministry.
Re: Allah or Jesus?
al-ajnabia
04/04/04 at 12:34:07
[slm]
This is absolutley full of ****. there is no possible way that this actually ocured or that any "Imam" would respond this way.  Ihave heard Christian ministers of all denominations say things like this of say that anyone who is not of their demonination is going to hell (thought I have heard others of all denominations refute this),but I cannot beleive that a muslim Imam would say this unless he is not really an imam and was instead an actor hired for this purpose.
but then again...
You know my sitution. Acording to the MSU and the Near Eastern Languages And Cultures department at my university I am not a real muslim.  Maybe they would define this "Imam" as a real muslim.  It then may be possible to imagine that this could happen, in a world where non muslim college professors and converts of questionalbe understanding and motivation define what a muslim is in this nation's instatutions of higher learning.
Re: Allah or Jesus?
Mona
04/04/04 at 12:54:45
[slm]

sis Kathy, I would just ask whoever forwarded this for the name of that imam, and specifics about what centre he represents.  You have to check the credibility of the story before responding.  Doesn't hurt to write to rick mathens himself to verify the specifics.

In all likelihood, this did not take place the way it is being portrayed.

take care
wassalam
Re: Allah or Jesus?
bhaloo
04/04/04 at 13:09:52
[slm]

Oh please, this is so fake that it doesn't even deserve a response.  This is the typical lies and paranoia these Christian missionaries have created amongst their congregations.  I've confronted the people that have told these lies and these people are in so much denial and are so bent on distorting the truth and trying to destroy Islam, that they will resort to any means necessary.
Re: Allah or Jesus?
timbuktu
04/04/04 at 20:50:54
[slm] This was posted on IoL (Political and Economics Discussion Forum) some months back, and there was a thorough discussion of this. I remember visiting the sites mentioned, and it was clear that there was only partial truth in the email.

I have tried to dig this out from the Discussion Forum, but my net is slow and I come up with error messages, so if any of you can do the search there, either for "Rick Mathes" or aome phrase in the email above, you may strike gold. The link for the forum is:

http://islamonline.net/Discussion/English/bbs.asp?aParID=305&action=topic&aPathID=242

I searched the net for "Rick Mathes", and came up with quite a few links:

http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?srch=105&FORM=AS5&q=Rick+Mathes

Here is from one of them.

[quote]Comments:  The above text, circulating via email since September 2003, was written by Rick Mathes, executive director of Mission Gate Prison Ministry in Chesterfield, Missouri. In subsequent statements on the ministry's Website, Mathes affirmed that the incident took place exactly as described.

However, a different version of events was reported in an article by Greg Kearney of the Lee News Service, in which a spokesperson for the Missouri Department of Corrections, which sponsored the training session, stated that the "imam" Mathes refers to above was a prison inmate and ordinary Muslim, not a trained cleric, and that although the inmate did answer various questions about his faith to the best of his ability, the issues of jihad and violence against non-believers were neither raised nor discussed during the exchange.

It is therefore a case of Mathes' word against the prison official's, unfortunately. I have not been able to find public statements by anyone else in a position to confirm the facts.

As to the substance of the alleged debate — whether or not it is a core tenet of Islam that believers must wage holy war against non-believers wherever they are found — there is fierce disagreement on that issue even among acknowledged experts in Muslim culture and theology, so I will not attempt to defend one side or the other in this brief commentary.[/quote]

See the resources on the following link for further reading.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_allah_or_jesus.htm

more from

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/allah.asp

[quote]Origins:   The piece quoted above ("Allah or Jesus?") is an editorial penned by Rick Mathes, Executive Director of the Mission Gate Prison Ministry.

We asked Mr. Mathes if he could provide some information about the origins of the piece, and he responded:

This article is an exact recording of a real event that I participated in. My only commentary was, "the truth will prevail." I think this meeting was in May 2003 and I will not give out more details for fear of retribution. The purpose of the class was to increase "religious sensitivity", that is, tolerance for each others beliefs and I really blew that. The director was purple with rage however the Imam and I exchanged signs and said "Salaam" which means "peace" in Arabic (I hope). I questioned him (Imam) really to get a clear refutation of what is commonly thought of this Jihad nonsense. But apparently he wasn't educated enough to rebut my remarks or by his silence on this matter (I think) concurred with my implied conclusions. In either case I was surprised. And when I said I found it hard to be his friend, everyone laughed out loud. So the mood was an amazing mix of those who were interested like me and others that were just amused by the whole thing. I left the matter open on purpose (the truth will prevail) so that either side could speak up and claim the truth as their own.

Reporter Greg Kearney, writing for the Lee News Service, traced the story to a correctional facility in Fulton, Missouri, and came away with a decidedly different version of events from Missouri state officials.

According to Tim Kniest, Public Information Officer for the Missouri Department of Corrections, the event described was a training program for prison volunteers, for which ministers from several faiths were invited to give presentations in order to acquaint prison volunteers with the varied religious beliefs of the inmate population. The man who gave the presentation about Islam was not a Muslim minister; he was an inmate pressed into service to present a short film on Islam and answer some questions when the prison's Volunteer Coordinator was "unable to find an Imam to speak."

Moreover, reported Mr. Kniest, the prison's Volunteer Coordinator said that "The inmate did a good job," adding, "He was asked a few questions that were beyond his ability to answer. But he was not asked anything like that question [in the editorial]":

. . . the Volunteer Coordinator at the prison said that no such exchange as the editorial reported ever took place. "He certainly did not 'Hang his head in shame'," according to Kniest. In fact, the inmate was thanked by the assembly before being escorted back to his quarters. Furthermore, the coordinator does not recall any questions dealing with jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world as reported in the editorial.

In the editorial the inmate is presented as an Imam, or Islamic minister, which he clearly was not.

Whatever may have transpired at the prison training session referred to above, the notion expressed by this piece is inaccurate. Islam is not a monolithic religion in which unanimity of belief and action is coordinated from a central authority. Islam has an estimated two billion adherents in countries all over the world who belong to any one of a number of different sects with varying beliefs, traditions, and interpretations of scripture. (As well, some religious groups identify themselves as Islamic but are not recognized as such by the vast majority of Muslims.) No one Muslim (especially one who wasn't even a cleric) could speak to what all of Islam believes, any more than a single member of a Methodist congregation could speak for every denomination and follower of Christianity. Many, many Muslims reject the idea that "all followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of their faith," or even the suggestion that such an interpretation has ever been a valid tenet of Islam. We sent this piece to several Muslim groups and invited them to offer comments; they provided somewhat different explanations about the concept of jihad, how Muslims regard non-Muslims, and other related topics, but they all agreed that the editorial presented a grossly distorted version of their beliefs.[/quote]
04/04/04 at 21:30:29
timbuktu
Re: Allah or Jesus?
amika
04/07/04 at 15:42:06
[quote author=Kathy link=board=madrasa;num=1081095499;start=0#0 date=04/04/04 at 12:18:19]
"You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame. Needless
to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the 'Diversification' training
seminar were not happy with Rick's way of dealing with the Islamic Imam and
exposing the truth about the Muslim's beliefs."[/quote]

Exposing the truth about the Muslim's beliefs?  The Imam hung his head in shame?

That is outright crazy!  This is nothing but a bunch of lies.  

Which is why I hate the beliefs of modern day Christians.  If Jesus is all love and will forgive you for anything, even if you don't repent, then you can lie as much as you like.  Jesus will forgive you!!!  As if he is God!

So why should I believe this Mr. Rick?  Since he is not afraid of any punishment, he can lie, cheat, fornicate and do anything he pleases.  Who knows what evil deeds he does in secret!

I have personally known of a PASTOR who lied!!!  I couldn't believe it.  But this pastor actually lied in a court of law!  Before the judge!  And even got away with it, because the judge figured she was a pastor, so she couldn't lie!

So if it's a Christian talking......and talking about Jesus and his love, I will not believe a word he says!

And as for the Imam hanging his head in shame, that is really nonsense!

A muslim never hangs his head in shame, for Allah commands what is good and forbids what is evil and shameful.  A muslim never can hang his head in shame!

La ilaha il Allah, Muhammaddar Rasul Allah!
Re: Allah or Jesus?
Mossy
04/07/04 at 16:18:56
You would castigate all Christians because some lie? Is this an inherent part of their beliefs then?

Calm down sister, don't go down to the level of those who generalise such.
Re: Allah or Jesus?
Aadhil
04/07/04 at 23:55:19
[slm], all

It just proves how great Islam is. The people who fabricated this story or modified it needs a story which is fabricated or modified to tell people that Islam is a terrorist religion. (A tongue twister :P)

There are tons of stories of this type all over the place. I even saw a cartoon in robert morey's website about a typical steriotypical 'muslim' who converts to christianity when he hears some christian rederick. The funny part is that he converted to christianity without an argument :D

Just do what we do best...Da'wah. Tell the truth about our religion, and these false stories will be crushed. Truth will always prevail.
:) []

[slm]...Muslim ;-)
04/07/04 at 23:56:54
Aadhil
Re: Allah or Jesus?
humble_muslim
04/08/04 at 09:24:22
AA

I saw this on another board and thought it was a hoax.  Now I know (thanks, Unlce Tim) that it's even worse.  The information from the reporter completely turns the tables on Mr. Rick, and shows who should really hang his/her head in shame about the lengths Christian missionaries go to to discredit Islam.  But this article proves one thing, Alhamdolillah, that the Christians in the USA are getting more and more scared of losing their people to Islam.  Mashallah, Islam has seen great success in US prisons, much  more than Chritianity, as Mr Rick himself admits on his site :

"It is well documernted that within the prison systems across our nation, the Islamic faith has been growing by leaps and bounds - particularly among the African American inmate populations."

And I guess this is the real reason why Mr. Rick has to start inventing lies.

It's very strange that Mr Rick talks about the love of Jesus, but himself uses hatred to try to preach his stuff.  Whereas we muslims are instructed to always use kindness and justice with all non-hostile muslims :

Quran 60,8 : "God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just."


Mr Rick also says a very stupid thing on his site :
" Muslims are killing our troops in Iraq - not Christians."  And what about the muslims who are being killed by your troops?  And who started this war?Duuuuuuuuuh, I think he left his brain at home with this one.

May Allah grant guidance to every Christian, Jew or anyone else living in America and everywhere else in the world, Ameen.  And may Allah disgrace those who tell a lie against him :

"And who does more injustice than he who tells a lie against Allah?" (Surah Kahf).
NS
04/08/04 at 09:47:33
humble_muslim


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