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How could one not believe in Allah?

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How could one not believe in Allah?
Caraj
04/04/04 at 22:59:05
I have always wondered how anyone could not believe in God?
I mean, agnostics? Athiest?
Why do you think people do not believe?
Re: How could one not believe in Allah?
Abu_Hamza
04/04/04 at 23:16:14
[slm]

That's a question that should really be asked from them.  But in my experience, a lot of atheists don't believe in God because there is no "proof" that God exists.  He cannot be seen or heard.  Moreover, some of them also opine that the theory of evolution contradicts with the existence of God, and therefore there must be no God.
Re: How could one not believe in Allah?
nida
04/04/04 at 23:51:21
[slm]
We were discussing the Holocaust in school...and the terrifying way the Jews were killed. We are also talking about "faith" in general. This one girl was like..
"If there IS a God..then why would he let innocent babies die? Why someone who is so innocent and pure?"
I didn't quite know how to answer her. The only thing I could think of was that its Allah's decision and watever he does is for the best.
(any suggestions?)
I think these are the types of questions atheists ask about the existence of God.
[wlm]
:-)
Re: How could one not believe in Allah?
Doha_03
04/04/04 at 23:54:57
slm,

Yeah. But they also need to know that, that is why it is the THEORY of evolution, not law. It has not been proven well enough to be universaly accepted as a law.

I think the reason they don't believe in God varies with each person. Sometimes they say, "well why is there so much pain and sufferring in the world." Sometimes they just probably don't want to accept a religion and that God exisists. Sometimes they weren't taught about God when they were young and growing up they doubt everything.

Wa Allahu 'Alim

And Sis Nida. I think Sis amika answered something like that. She had a pretty good answer. She said something like "God has given us free will and those people have chosen to deviate from the straight path." Sometimes it's just a test. Allah knows best.

Wasalaam,
Doha

Wa Allahu 'Alim.

Wasalaam,
Doha
04/04/04 at 23:59:14
Doha_03
Re: How could one not believe in Allah?
amika
04/05/04 at 05:08:41
[quote author=nida link=board=lighthouse;num=1081138080;start=0#2 date=04/04/04 at 23:51:21] We were discussing the Holocaust in school...and the terrifying way the Jews were killed. We are also talking about "faith" in general. This one girl was like..
"If there IS a God..then why would he let innocent babies die? Why someone who is so innocent and pure?"
I didn't quite know how to answer her. The only thing I could think of was that its Allah's decision and watever he does is for the best.
(any suggestions?)
[/quote]

[slm],
Why does Allah let innocent babies die?  And millions of people brutally killed as in the Holocaust?

The answer is in the Qur'an.  (In fact, all answers can be found in the Qur'an  :) )

Read the story of Musa (alayhis salaam) and Khidr in al-Quran 18: 60-82.

http://ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/articles/9212musa.html

What appears to us as evil may be in reality good.  And what appears to us as good may be in reality evil.

It is only Allah who knows all things.  He is The Wise.  He knows things we do not.  

And then there is the Law of Cause and Effect to take into consideration.

What happens when you plant a seed in the ground, give it water and sunshine?  It will grow into a tree.  If you don't plant the seed, you will not get any tree.

If you take a gun and shoot a person in the head what will happen?  That person will most definitely die.

If you study hard for your examination, you will pass it.  If you do not study you will fail in it.

Smoke and you could get cancer.  Homosexuality?  There's AIDS.
Eat pork?  Obesity, contracting diseases of the pig, high blood pressure.
Drink alcohol and drive?  Kill the self or somebody else....totally innocent.

Be kind?  Make lots of friends.  Be unkind?  Make no friends.

I think you are beginning to get the picture?  The law of cause and effect was created by none other than Allah.  He made that law and can at any time make it nul.  He parted the sea, created Easa (as) without a father and gave him the ability to bring the dead to life.  Huwa ala kulli shayin qadir!  He is able to do all things!

Well then.  I hope you understand what that means.  He has power over all things and do anything He likes.

There is a narration where the most miserable person who ever lived was dipped once in Paradise and asked "did you know of any misery?"  To which that person replies......"None!"

So when you see poor, miserable people, people who are suffering from handicaps, diseases and pain........in reality these very people are better off because they will taste paradise sooner.  Every single thing that was hurtful will be removed.  No pain...but everlasting joy!

Indeed sometimes I think that I have a lot more struggling to do versus people who are ill, handicapped, blind or deaf.  I think those who are healthy and wealthy have a lot more work to do to win Allah's pleasure.

Once I was watching the Discovery channel.  I was watching a film on lions.  There was this lion who fought to become leader of the pack.  When he won, he attacked the lion cubs that were not his and killed them.  
Imagine my reaction.  Such cute little cubs!   :o

Then this same lion mated with the mother of the lion cubs he had killed.  When she gave birth to new lion cubs, the lion (leader) did not touch them!

Subhanallah!

I was feeling sorry for the lion cubs that were killed.  But then I thought........
Allah was the one who created them.  And to Allah they went back!  Why was I feeling sorry for those cubs?!

Allah can do whatever He likes.  He has power over all things!

So too has Allah created all those innocent babies.  All those Jews who were killed in the Holocaust.  He is the Creator!

Whatever happens in the life of this world is due to the law of cause and effect.

The main reason why there is so much disorder in the world of mankind is due to disobedience to Allah's laws.  

If everybody obeyed Allah, there is no question of innocent babies being killed.

If you disobey Allah, then the law of cause and effect still works.  Allah's curse was on the Children of Israel because they disobeyed.  The result......history is proof.

Allah has given each and every man free will.  If man chooses to obey (submit to Allah and accept Islam as his religion), there will be peace and perfect order.  

If he chooses to disobey ( submit to other gods.....his own self, vain desires, Satan etc.) there will be disorder.  

Man should not follow any laws other than the laws of Allah!  But Allah has given him a choice.

Supposing a man xyz wants to kill some good man, Allah is not going to stop that man xyz.
If a man wants to give everything he has in charity, Allah is not going to stop him either.

Each man is held responsible for his actions.  You don't see chains on people restraining them from doing anything.  People are free to do whatever they want and Allah will not interfere in the choices people make.  

Throw a bomb in a busy street and you will kill many people.  Allah will not stop you if this is what you want to do!

Want to commit suicide by jumping off a cliff?  Allah won't stop you either!

You can choose to do anything you like!  But remember the law of cause and effect!

The wise choice is to submit to Allah.  There is something called Hellfire to reckon with.

People who do not fear God can do anything......any amount of evil.  They have no fear of punishment.  These are the people I do not trust.

Anyway, my point is this:  Allah can convert evil into good and good into evil.
Innocent people who are wronged will get justice in the Hereafter.  Not a single soul will be wronged.

Allah has the power to make everything right!

He is the Wise!  The Almighty!
Re: How could one not believe in Allah?
sal
04/05/04 at 15:38:29
[slm]
Actaully  it is wondering why they  dont believe  in   ALLAH however  we cant justify this  since  there  is  no  reason  they  dont have to

But we may ask what their prolem is that  makes  them so ?
It seems to me  they  dont have the wisdom  of thinking wider
They only think the small area  they  live in (the  earth and some planets ) is what  exists. that is why  they  think  no  life after  death

They have no pateince that they want everything  be as  good as  they want so any thing against their desire means unfair in  this regard they  blame GOD  for  any  disaster.sickness  death  itslef  etc

They  believe  in what they only see but I wonder how they  do  believe  or study in  history and geogrpaphy because  they  have not seen every  part of  the  world but they know  it exists if they believe in geography

I think so easily  it  is  a matter of  not  able to think well  or  refuse  thinking to  know  

BUT  LETS SEE  HOW  THEY WILL ANSWER THE QUESTIONS  WHEN  THEY ARE  ASKED  WHAT  THEY  REFUSED  TO  KNOW  >:(







Existsense
AbuKhaled
04/12/04 at 08:56:26
Dear Brothers & Sisters,

Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah.

Sometimes, being unable to see the other point of view can be an impediment to effective da’wa. One need not have to agree with an opposing view, but one should try to be able to place themselves in that other person’s shoes, and walk around a while, to get a feel for where they are coming from. Else you will only ever be able to stand up from the place you sit.

There are many reasons why people don’t believe in God, some of them one can appreciate more than others. Someone who has been brought up in an organised theistic religion, without ever having questioned the basis of their belief, and yet endured nothing but hardship and suffering, may understandably come to question the point of their belief in God, when it has only ever seemed to them that this belief achieved nothing for them by way of improving their lot in life. Other people who follow a theistic belief, without ever having assessed the validity of it, may come into contact with unbelievers (in theism, known alternatively as agnostics or atheists) – particularly atheists – who have complex arguments either in favour of their unbelief, and/or in opposition to the belief of the theist (it is not the same thing to have a reasoned argument in favour of one’s own position, as it is to have a reasoned argument to deconstruct another’s), which pose problems to the theist, in terms of their inability to answer the contentions put to them. And as some of you will know, often it is us who are asked to justify the reasons for why we believe in God. Really, the one who makes the claim should have the burden of proof. So if you are approached by an agnostic or atheist - who makes a claim about not believing in God and then asks you to provide some grounds for why you *do* - don’t be bullied into providing a justification for why you believe in God. Instead, turn the table, and ask them to provide their reasons for why they don’t believe. Fact: It takes less time to knock a house down than it does to build one.

In my own experience, Muslims today – in general - offer a poor quality of apologetic for believing in God (never mind an example of a true believer, myself not excluded). I don’t wonder why we are so ineffective at conveying the reasons for believing in God, when I observe many of the ill-thought-out reasons/arguments that we often present. Even I, being a Muslim, would be hard-pressed to accept some of these half-baked excuses for arguments. And that is notwithstanding the accompanying sincerity behind such endeavours.

On the contrary, from what I have seen, atheistic philosophy has come along in leaps and bounds. Some of their (i) arguments for not believing in the existence of God, and (ii) reasons for believing in the non-existence of God, are quite sophisticated, and I can easily see how – if an unequipped Muslim came across them – s/he might begin to falter and stumble in trying to answer such contentions. Which could have the disastrous consequence of making that Muslim doubt Islam itself, hashalillah. I know, because I lived this very nightmare.

There is an abundance of well-written literature on atheism and it’s validity. The same cannot be said, in my estimation, of theistic literature and it’s validity. At least if we confine ourselves to *contemporary* works, and especially if we further limit this to Muslim-only authored works.

As I’ve said before though, it is not so much that atheists/agnostics are incredibly sharp and present impenetrable arguments, but that many Muslims are blunt in their thinking and ability to assess, let alone dissect the arguments/viewpoints/reasoning, of opposite, or divergent, beliefs, and incapable of effectively puncturing such arguments. And from what I’ve seen, this trend is not about to change anytime soon, as we still revisit the tired old perennial issues of yesteryear (just see a few of the locked threads on this Board). Until we make a concerted effort to study the relevant disciplines – which we should know the Muslims of olde *did*, and to an inspiring level of mastery too – we will remain dulled and content with the dismal level of apologetic that passes for acceptable reasoning, argument and justification amongst ourselves.

There are, broadly, two types of atheist. An atheist not only does not believe in the existence of God, but does not believe that it is provable. An agnostic also does not believe in the existence of God, but accepts that possibility that God could exist. In other words an agnostic accepts that his/her unbelief could just be because they have not come across an acceptable proof yet. Atheists are more adamant, in that they resolutely refuse to entertain even the possibility that God could exist. You have weak atheists, whose position is based upon the deconstruction of theistic proofs, and strong atheists, whose position is built upon the construction of atheistic proofs for believing in the non-existence of God. There is a subtle difference in these two positions, which we would do well to note. Myself, I tend to encounter – much more frequently – weak atheists. I consider strong atheism an indefensible position. Weak atheism is more defensible, given that it’s validity depends on the strength of the theistic argument it deconstructs. So, for instance, if a Muslim presents a poor argument, then it is entirely possible for a weak atheist to overcome it. Yet, note, that that doesn’t provide grounds for believing that God doesn’t exist, merely grounds for believing that this particular theistic argument cannot prove that God does. Rule: An absence of evidence is not tantamount to no evidence. Just because one cannot prove something, does not mean that the thing is not provable per se. Imam Fakhr al-Din al-Razi – one of the most brilliant and incisive minds this Ummah has ever known - radhi’Allahu ‘anh, articulated a related rule when debating with a Christian once, as related by one of our Teachers, hafiDHahullah. That the dalil [proof/evidence] indicates the existence of the madlul [thing being proven], which therefore means that the madlul exists prior to the dalil, and independently of it. There can be no proof if the thing being proven does not exist, and the proof only arises due to the fact that the thing it seeks to prove already exists. Likewise, Allah ta’ala exists regardless of whether a Muslim is able to prove it. His existence, tabarak wa ta’ala,  is not effected, nor affected, by our in/ability to prove it, for His existence, subhanahu wa ta’ala, exists independently of our in/ability to prove it. He, azza wa jal, does not exist *because* we can prove it. Rather, we can prove it only *because* he does indeed exist!

Of course, once an atheist has encountered a number of theistic arguments that they manage to deconstruct, then it gives rise to the perception that no valid and sound argument does actually exist for believing in the existence of God.

That said, I think that for one to be a true atheist, they need to justify their atheism by strong atheism. And although I cannot claim expertise or an in-depth and broad knowledge of atheistic proofs, that which I have seen has been insufficient *for me*, even if I could respect the quality of the argument (i.e. it’s level). But, importantly, whilst *I* could identify the flaws therein, I am not so confident that those same arguments would wash over all other Muslims as untroublingly. Given that I have observed Muslims embracing flawed arguments for believing in the existence of God, because they lack the necessary skill to examine such arguments to the degree whereby they might note flaws in them, I have no hesitation in thinking they would also be confused and troubled by some of the atheistic proofs out there too. At best, their consequent rejection of them would be based not on sound deconstruction, but a necessary blanking out of the acknowledgment that such an encounter has left them troubled. Which they must do to get back to their comfort-zone, when ignorance (of atheist sophistry) was a bliss unappreciated. And this would be due more to dogmatic closure, than an ability to critically think. In the same vein, I have had discussions with atheists/agnostics who were silenced by the outcome of our dialogue, but could not bring themselves to forsake their view, not because they didn’t know deep down that the Mozlem had managed to penetrate their reasoning, but because they had not come prepared to experience such a thing, because, blatantly, it happened so rarely before then. They armed themselves with their sophistry, and targeted unwitting Muslims – as an exercise in self-indulgence - who succumbed to debate and fell prey to their ill-intent. And this happened enough times for them to become bolshy and arrogant. So then, one day, when they came across one Mozlem who wasn’t as clueless as they would have conveniently liked, they were sent reeling, and felt humiliated. Pride prevented them from accepting that it was of their own doing, for what went around came around. But admitting they were wrong? Never. Which is a proof that they were never interested in reaching the Truth, but just in making some poor Brother/Sister doubt their own ‘aqida [belief]. This is why I’d discourage any Muslims from embarking on such a venture alone, without the steadying hand of advanced scholarship in ‘aqida and mantiq [logic] nearby, to help them out of troubled waters, for the sand begins to sink quickly when one gets entangles in such tricky areas. One *must* have proficiency in ‘aqida, from the authorised study of some of the accepted texts, and preferably in mantiq too. Without this, there are no armbands to help keep one afloat when the tide starts becoming choppy, and you are like a cork on the ocean. My own experience was out of neglect of my own nasiha [advice/counsel], from a time when I foolishly ventured beyond my own limits, so disentangling myself became a necessity, not a choice. I believed in myself too much, and I guess I relied upon my own intelligence more than I relied upon Allah ta’ala, a’uzubillah. The resulting lesson brought my world collapsing down around me. So don’t be me and do as I did, for that was like not believing that hellfire will be hot without touching it. You don’t need to be blind to not see the road ahead, you could just as well defiantly not open your eyes, deluding yourself that you won’t crash. And you might not. But then again, you might. And for what? ’Ujb [conceit]?

It is not about high-level arguments, complex and sophisticated reasoning – though it can be – but about *qualitative* thinking. About raising the bar. Today we wallow in mediocrity, when we should be carrying the baton of excellence.

Let us take but one example from this very thread, to illustrate. The issue of the infamous Argument From Evil. This is the view that God cannot exist, because if He did, then surely He would not allow evil, suffering and injustice to go on in the world.

Now, I’m not a scientist of rockets, but even I managed to figure out the flaw in this one.

It interested me how someone who does not believe in God, manages to then make some sort of conclusion about how this God – that they don’t believe in – should be. Strange, no? If you don’t believe God exists, then how do you figure that He would be Good, Benevolent, Just, and Fair if He did? From where do you derive such conclusions? They say that these would be characteristics of God. How do they know? Who said so? God? But then, er, doesn’t that mean you believe God exists, to accept what He says about Himself? Eh??

And consider this next, related point. Why should God not being Fair and Just mean He doesn’t exist? What has His Justness got to do with His Existence? Does God exist because of His Justice? Says who? You, the one who chooses not to believe in Him by supposing that for Him to exist, he must be Just. Huh? Isn’t that a bit like saying that for a human to exist they must be good? The goodness or badness is unrelated to someone existing, is it not? My goodness or badness can only exist once I exist, not prior to my existence. And my existence is not effected by my being good/bad, but independently of that. By the way, God is not like humans, so please don’t conflate that preceding example with me making tashbih [likening Allah ta’ala to His creation], ma’adAllah.

Recently I have become interested in a proper examination of the concept of God, and its historical evolution outside of Muslims and Islam. How mankind treated this notion, and the various ways that different cultures, peoples, religions, and times, have conceptualised this phenomenon of God. I skimmed some of Karen Armstrong’s A History of God, and will probably purchase it. It is just something that started to intrigue me. To see how this idea unfolded, both correctly and incorrectly. For God means different things to different people. A couple of months back, I happened to encounter a new-age clairvoyant - into tarot cards, and reading peoples’ auras – all of which, on the authority of our Teachers, is related to be forbidden Islamically, and kufr to believe in, wallahu a’lam. So please treat that as a disclaimer, and just to dispel any doubt, I did not encounter this person for such purposes, it was merely an incidental discovery - who told me I had a spiritual guide accompanying me everywhere, and that this guide looked like someone arab (Egyptian-like) and wore a pendant, and was clothed in white robes. Hardly an astounding insight, given that I am Muslim, and that even the most ignorant non-Muslim has probably seen pictures of mashayikh and how they dress, lol. Anyway, I humoured her jaw-dropping ability to “know this” (sarcasm implicit). Incidentally, I give no regard to such unislamic practices whatsoever, and was being told this only because I wanted to see what was said if I enquired. And it was, frankly, no different to those gullible people who read horoscopes and believe them. Given that the same thing will be read by millions of people that day, the statistical likelihood that what is written will actually occur in the case of some individuals is not so hard to predict. Yet they seem to think it is an indication of Venus being in line with Jupiter, in the astral plane of Neptune’s galaxy, along the lines of Taurus in ascension. Or something. Yes, and I can predict that if you believe all this rubbish that someone will call you a dufus before the end of the day. Me.

So anyway, I asked her what her concept of God was, and she replied that she didn’t believe in some sort of deity as an entity, but rather, for her, God was just a set of values. And that we all have the innate capacity to incorporate godliness into our beings. It was evident to me that she really deeply held to this, so I did not wish to offend her by asking a few well-placed questions that would have unseated her and made her uncomfortable. I did this once to a friend of mine and he became unsettled because, “… you’re messing with fundamental beliefs of mine that I’ve held to for a long time.” Fair enough, I know I have an advantage, in that I have learned how to do this, so to exploit it would be wrong. And for you to feel like I am unstitching your deep-seated convictions is not a nice experience. Even if that was not my aim.

Coming back to this clairvoyant girl. What she was saying was utter tosh, but I did not trash her belief, since this is not Islamic either. And because, as hard as it is for us to accept, this is exactly how our belief appears to others who think that what we hold to is farfetched and ludicrous. We find their incomprehension incomprehensible. And that is because we are prone to *dogmatic closure* ourselves (just like they are), which is not necessarily a bad thing always. In the case of many Muslims, who are not able to fence with kufr-philosophical sophistry, it can act as a preventative barrier to becoming influenced by such ideas.

Right then my niyyah [inention] was not to give da’wa to this deluded clairvoyant, but to learn about why she believed what she believed. And it gave me a bit more of an insight into the human condition. Which I believe will broaden my capacity to relate to others, and give da’wa more ably in the future, bi’idhnillah ta’ala. Because basically, people believe this stuff, and I genuinely want to know why, without being conceited about it. So I don’t judge them, I just try to learn from them, and then believe that such a small piece of insight may one day come in handy, somewhere. Sure, I carry prejudgements about things which I know to contradict Islamic tenets of belief, but that is not the same as prejudging *a person*, and the latter is what often impedes da’wa, because it makes us seem like we have some sort of ominous Islamic-agenda to proslyteise, which is enough to put many off engaging in a dialogue. Not like when some Jehovah’s Witness comes a-knocking on your door, and you invite them in, rubbing your hands in glee, because now you can use all your amassed Zakir Naik and Ahmed Deedat material, eh? Awesome, bring it on fella…

Keep this wretch in your du’a please.

Ma’assalam,

Abu Khaled
04/12/04 at 14:16:01
AbuKhaled
Re: How could one not believe in Allah?
Halima
04/13/04 at 02:01:34
[slm] Bro AbuKhaled,

Shukran Jaziran for posting an emense food for thought piece.  I tried to read it on screen but realize that I have to print it to digest it completely.  You just articulated what some of us have come across and found ourselves lacking in dealing with in many ways.

I'm impressed.

[wlm]

Halima
Re: How could one not believe in Allah?
Chris
05/05/04 at 17:07:29
Anouther possibility is people equte the message of God with the self-appointed messengers.  'selt-appointed' is the ONLY term that can be used to ANY religous figures (with the single expection of the prophets, none of whom are alive today) and they can act in ways that people belive makes them lies and then they get confused and believe the message itself is a lie.  Surah Ya-Sin gives some helpful advice on that situation.  

Examples:

-The privalaged postion held by the christian clergy in many nations before 1900 (and still does in places)

-The cases of abuse carried out by priests

-Brutalising of entire populations by the Taliban and their agents.

See my point?  I make a point of arguing with every pompus Iman I come accross, but I never lose belief in the All-Knowing Lord.

C


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