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| "Why do you remove pictures when you pray? Isnt th |
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| Nadeem |
| 04/06/04 at 10:20:46 |
| [slm] Recently, a non-Muslim friend came to visit and stayed over. He occupied the room I normally pray in, so instead I prayed in the living room, where there are some family photos. An hour or so later, I noticed that the pictures were still overturned face down, which I had done whilst praying, so I turned them back round. My friend on noticing this said "Why do you remove pictures when you pray? Isnt that a bit excessive?" :o At first I was a bit taken aback. But after taking a deep breath and realising that my friend was probably just curious, I tried to explain to him about the significance of the position of idol worship in Islam, and the pictures contribution to that. My task was made a little harder because my friend belongs to a religion which uses pictures. In fact, I have noticed in his house, there is pictures of saints, etc. Furthermore, big picture of his father who passed away some years ago. He was very close with his father, so I tried to be diplomatic. I was then asked "but surely you dont worship your family, even you are in the picture, so how can you say it is because of worshipping idols?" I explained about the distraction it provides when you are trying to pray. So he said "what about that picture, thats on your side, you dont look at that, do you?" I explained about the salaams at the end of the salat, and had to explain about angels. He smiled about that and stopped his questioning. I think maybe the angels convinced him! Anyway a few minutes later he asked me why do we pray the way we do. I gave the answer that, that is what our Prophet [saw] did to pray. He was curious to learn what is the significance of the different movements. In the end I had to concede that I didnt know. But it made me curious also. I have heard that this is the way Hazrat Ibrahim (pbuh) used to pray to Allah. I try to be diplomatic when talking to non-muslims but nevertheless try to explain principles in Islam as best I can. I feel that in order to educate ourselves and others (especially non-Muslims) about Islam, a discussion rather than a point scoring debate is more effective. This brings me to my questions for the group: 1. Does anyone actually know the origins and reasons for the different positions in Salat? Obviously it came from Allah originally, but what are the significance of different positions. 2. The dialogue I outlined above with regards to the removal of pictures during praying. Do others feel that this was a good way to explain to a non-Muslim this concept. I am interested to know if there is a better way to explain concepts such as this should I be asked by another person. Jazakallah [wlm] |
| Re: "Why do you remove pictures when you pray? Isn |
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| bhaloo |
| 04/06/04 at 11:23:49 |
| [slm] I think you did pretty good. :) With regards to point 1, I don't know, but I came across this article on Islam Online that mentioned the benefits of the prayer movements: http://198.65.147.194/English/Science/2001/01/article6.shtml |
| Re: "Why do you remove pictures when you pray? Isn |
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| rkhan |
| 04/07/04 at 01:56:58 |
| [slm] About the meaning and significance of prayer movements, you can find a lot about the inner dimensions in Imaam Ghazaali's book Ihya-uloom-ad-deen (vol 1) I found this excerpt in The Road to Makkah by M. Asad, which imo is the second best da'wah bk --the first of course being the Qur'aan. [i] They were like soldiers in the precision of their movements—they would bow together in the direction of Mecca, rise again and then kneel down and touch the ground with their foreheads; they seemed to follow the inaudible words of their leader, who between the prostrations stood barefoot on his carpet, eyes closed, arms folded over his chest, soundlessly moving his lips and obviously lost in deep absorption: you could see that he was praying with his whole soul. It somehow disturbed me to see so real a prayer combined with almost mechanical body movements, and one day I asked the hajji who understood a little English. “Do you really believe that God expects you to show Him your respect by repeated bowing and kneeling and prostration? Might it not be better only to look into oneself and to pray to Him in the stillness of one’s heart? Why all these movements of your body? As soon as I uttered these words I felt remorse, for I had not intended to injure the old man’s religious feelings. But the hajji did not appear in the least offended. He smiled with his toothless mouth and replied: “How else should we worship God? Did He not create both soul and body together? And this being so, should man not pray with his body and soul? Listen, I will tell you why Muslims pray as we pray. We turn towards the Ka’aba, God’s holy temple in Mecca, knowing that the faces of Muslims wherever they may be are turned to it in prayer, and that we are like one body, with Him as the center of our thoughts. First we stand upright and recite from the Holy Qur’aan remembering that it is His Word given to man that he may be upright and steadfast in life. Then we say “God is the Greatest”, reminding ourselves no one deserves to be worshipped but Him; and bow down deep because we honour Him above all, and praise His Power and Glory. Thereafter we prostrate ourselves on our foreheads because we feel that we are but dust and nothingness before Him, and that He is our Creator and Sustainer on High. Then we lift our faces from the ground and remain sitting, prayimg that He forgives us our sins and bestows His grace upon us, and guide us aright, and give us health and sustenance. Then again we prostrate ourselves on the ground and touch the dust with our foreheads before the Might and Glory of the One. After that we remain sitting and pray that He bless the Prophet Muhammad who brought His message to us, just as HE blessed the earlier Prophets; that He bless us as well, and all those who follow the right guidance; and we ask Him to give us the good of this world and the next. In the end we turn our heads to the right and to the left saying: Peace and the grace of God be upon you – and greet all those who are righteous, wherever they may be. “It was thus that the Prophet used to pray and taught his followers to pray for all times, so that they might willingly surrender themselves to God –which is what Islaam means – and so be at peace with Him and with their own destiny. The old man did not, of course use exactly those words, but this was their meaning and this is how I remember them. Years later I realized that with his simple explanation the hajji had opened to me the first door to Islaam……” [/i] The Road to Makkah [M. Asad] Its interesting that there's a sect of Jews called the Samaritan Jews whose prayers are a lot like the Muslims , with a prayer mat and prostrations. The BIble also contains references to Jesus falling on his face to the earth to pray to God. subhaanallah! PS. I just want to add that there are a lot of opinions abt putting up pictures/photographs in the house, so I'm not addressing that part. Pls consult a knowledgeable scholar on that one inshaAllaah. |
| 04/07/04 at 02:09:45 |
| rkhan |
| Re: "Why do you remove pictures when you pray? Isn |
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| timbuktu |
| 04/07/04 at 02:30:24 |
| [slm] Thank you all for this. :) I read somewhere that all the positions and movements in salaah are to be found in the Bible, not in one go, but spread out over the whole New and Old Testaments. |
| Re: "Why do you remove pictures when you pray? Isn |
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| Nadeem |
| 04/07/04 at 05:35:17 |
| [slm] Thanks guys. Brother Bhaloo, the article about the "yoga" of Islamic prayer was really interesting. Although I'm sure that is not the original reason for our prayers, :) the fact that so many physical and mental/emotional benefits in addition to the spiritual side is an added bonus. Alhamdulillah, truly Allah prescribes what is best for us even when we dont know the full reasons at the time. It makes me wonder though if the early Muslims had a particular way of breathing whilst praying, that perhaps most of the masses werent aware of. :-[Perhaps I'm totally on a wrong idea, but it may be interesting to find out. Anyone know of anything about this? I'm thinking of a hadith, forgive me, I cant find the reference to but its something along the lines of a man goes into the mosque to perform salat, and after he has finished the Prophet [saw] says to him "Go back and redo your prayer" and then he goes back and does it again, and again the Prophet [saw] says " Go back and redo it", and then the third time the man says "i dont know how to do it any better" then the Prophet [saw] shows him. Again apologies if I've made any mistakes with regard to this. Brother/Sister(?) rkhan, the excerpt you posted was beautiful. It really describes the significance of each movement. It contains the answer to another oft-asked question "Why do you need to do all these movements at set times? Surely God doesnt need you to make your life so rigid?" or something to that effect: ;-)“How else should we worship God? Did He not create both soul and body together? And this being so, should man not pray with his body and soul?" ;-) I thought that was a brilliant answer. Thankyou Brother Timbuktu, I think you are right about the Bible references. I have also seen passages in the Bible where it says Jesus (pbuh) "fell on his face" to pray to Allah. In fact I think Br/Sr rkhan mentioned this in their post also. As a side issue I was suprised to find recently that the "flesh of swine" is also explicitly forbidden in the Bible. :o You wouldnt have thoucht it, eh? Anyway going off on a tangent a little. [wlm] |
| Re: "Why do you remove pictures when you pray? Isn |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 04/08/04 at 20:39:21 |
| [quote author=Nadeem link=board=lighthouse;num=1081261246;start=0#0 date=04/06/04 at 10:20:46]1. Does anyone actually know the origins and reasons for the different positions in Salat? [/quote] The real answer to this question is: No. Nobody *knows* with certainty the reasons for the different positions in Salah. We don't know because the Lawgiver (swt) did not explain to us any reason. He (swt) simply taught us the manner in which we should worship Him, and so we do. Whatever appears in the writings of the scholars with regards to the significance of the different positions in salaah is based on their own reflections, which *may* (or may not) describe *some* (not all) of the wisdom behind those positions. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah |
| 04/08/04 at 20:42:46 |
| Abu_Hamza |
| Re: "Why do you remove pictures when you pray? Isn |
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| bismilla |
| 05/07/04 at 11:04:07 |
| [quote author=Nadeem link=board=lighthouse;num=1081261246;start=0#0 date=04/06/04 at 10:20:46] .... 2. The dialogue I outlined above with regards to the removal of pictures during praying. Do others feel that this was a good way to explain to a non-Muslim this concept. I am interested to know if there is a better way to explain concepts such as this should I be asked by another person..... [/quote] [i]Source : MUHARRAMĂT (Forbidden matters we people take lightly) [/i] [color=green][font=comic SANS ms][u]Having pictures of animate beings on clothings, walls or paper, etc.[/u] 'Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood (may Allah be pleased with him) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "The people who will be most severely punished by Allah on the Day of Resurrection are the picture-makers." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, see al-Fath, 10/382). Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "Allah says: 'Who does more wrong than the one who tries to create something like My creation; let him create a grain of wheat or an ear of corn . . .'" (Reported by al-Bukhaari, see Fath al-Baari, 10/385). Ibn 'Abbaas (may Allah be pleased with him) said: "Every picture-maker will be in the Fire, and for each picture that he made he will be given a soul, and he will be punished in Hell." Ibn 'Abbaas said: If you must make pictures, draw trees and things that do not possess a soul." (Reported by Muslim, 3/1671). These ahaadeeth clearly indicate that it is haram to make images of animate beings, whether they be humans or different kinds of animals, whether the images are two- or three dimensional. Pictures are forbidden whether they are drawn, engraved, carved, etched or cast from moulds. The ahaadeeth which forbid making pictures cover all these methods. ..... [u]The Muslim should not keep any pictures of animate beings in his house, because this prevents the angels from entering his home.[/u] The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "The angels do not enter a house where there is a dog or pictures." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, see al-Fath, 10/380). . . ." [al-Taghaabun 64:16][/font][/color] |
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