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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Wrong Presumptions? |
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| Anonymous |
| 04/14/04 at 22:57:54 |
| Asalaam alaykom. Ihave a question for the brother's or the sister's if this has happened to them. I'm a Muslimah alhamdullilah and I've been going to the masjid for quite awhile now. Recently I've been feeling a little wierd about going because of something which could only be my imagination. A few times I've come in close contact- not physical just eye to eye, with this brother. The same one. It's making me feel uncomfortable because I'm thinking to myself what if he thinks I like him! Which I don't and every time this eye to eye contact happens it's just pure coincidence. The thing that gets me the most is that I lower my gaze as much as possible but everytime (well not EVERYtime...)I look up, there he is! Oh and I'm sure he's not interested either, very sure. So what can I do besides covering my face??? Thanks in advance. |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| jannah |
| 04/14/04 at 23:28:31 |
| wlm, ::) gosh i know guys that do that.. like what the heck ewwwwww just cause i said salam how r u.. u think i like u!! jeez sounds like he likes YOU sister... next time he does that just give him a dirty look.. say something to ur friends and then they'll all turn around stare at him and start laughing that should about do it :P |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 04/15/04 at 10:30:14 |
| [slm] I get that a lot, but what I hate worse are those brothers who keep looking at you and fidget so that you look up to see what is going on and they act like it is all you and you just cant keep your eyes off THEM. And it doesnt help if you cover your face. I cover my face and I still get that from the brothers who have that problem, although most brothers are very respectful. And it doesnt help if you dont ever look up, because then the wrong sort of broters will come closer thinking you dont notice and its real hard to get rid of them. But if your face is covered, youcan get away with making faces at them :P althoug I've found when I do that outside,the wind has a tendency to give away my secrets ::). |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| Nadeem |
| 04/15/04 at 11:01:53 |
| [slm] Sister, you have some amusing but effective suggestions here from sisters jannah and pebble. However, I'm a little confused about something. You say that this guy is staring at you in the masjid. In the UK, most of the masjid I've been in have separate galleries for the women, usually a raised balcony, so that the women can see the imam and I think perhaps the men, but the men cant see the women. Is this not the case in your country? [wlm] |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| theOriginal |
| 04/15/04 at 15:00:48 |
| [slm] No Nadeem...the same stuff happens here in North America.... Most masjids save the crappy sections for the women...you know where they have to climb like 15 flights of stairs just to reach the prayer area (how many men do we know with osteoporosis, yeah someone get back to me on that one, k?)....and they make them enter through some crazy back door, where there are like snow banks which create icy and dangerous walking conditions. uhuh yeah, it happens here too. This, of course, is only until it's like Eid, then the women are stuffed in some cafetaria or lunch room or something. Oh and...the speakers don't usually work, eh? Let's not forget the crying screaming children. I've noticed most children are better behaved when they go to the mosque with their dads...why don't fathers take the responsibility of their kids in the mosque?!!! WHY oh WHY? Especially after they hit like 4, it would just make things easier. And those really annoying women, who don't smack their kids when they create a ruckus? I mean seriously come on!!!! I want to listen to the khutbah, and if you don't shut ur kid up, I'll do it for you. Okay okay..I'll do it non-violently...jeez people, relax :) Anywayyyyyyyyyy...just to clarify, some masjids are awesome, Alhamdulillah. Now sister!!!! Okay let me tell you something...don't read too much into it, maybe he's just staring into space or something, or maybe he looks at everyone without realizing it. It was funny, one day I was walking into our prayer area, and I was kind of spaced out, and staring at something in front of me. Turns out, it was a brother, and I didn't clue in until he cleared his throat and said "Assalaamu Alaikum, excuse me" then ran away. Poor kid. Now he sees me coming down the hall, and he does a 180 and runs away. That's fine with me, btw.. Advice, unlike Jannah, I'd say DON'T tell your friends about it. They'll stare at him and laugh and then he'll get nervous, and he'll start thinking you really like him. That would not be fun, trust me..especially if he likes you. Just ignore him. Completely. It'll good for his ego. I think I'm in a man-bashing mood...ignore all five of my posts today. JazakAllah Khair. Wasalaam. |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| ft |
| 04/15/04 at 21:06:56 |
| [slm] sister This has happened to me. Some sisters used to study in this lounge at school and whenever I would walk by, my eyes would always cross with this one particular sister's and I started to think that she is interested in me. I was about to make a move too but then I heard from some of the brothers that they feel the same way about the sister. So sister keep ignoring it, if he does it to you, chances are he does to other sisters too. and to sister Justone's comments about unfair treatment in the masajid. Pardon my ignorance but isn't it is optional for women to go to masjid? I've even heard that it is preferred for them to pray at home? |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| theOriginal |
| 04/15/04 at 21:25:51 |
| [slm] [quote author=ft link=board=madrasa;num=1081997874;start=0#5 date=04/15/04 at 21:06:56]and to sister Justone's comments about unfair treatment in the masajid. Pardon my ignorance but isn't it is optional for women to go to masjid? I've even heard that it is preferred for them to pray at home? [/quote] Yes, and? They are treated unfairly because it is their OPTION to go to the masjid? That's really interesting logic....unfortunately, just not good enough. Wasalaam. |
| 04/15/04 at 21:26:33 |
| theOriginal |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| ft |
| 04/15/04 at 22:21:42 |
| No need to get upset sister. All I was saying is that if you don't like the conditions you have an option to pray home. Better one too. Thats all. |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| nida |
| 04/15/04 at 22:22:11 |
| ::) [slm] hah.Yeah, it CAN get really bad in the woman's area in the masjid. Last year for Ramadan, we were listening to the khutbah on Eid day.. and then all of a sudden the mic goes off. And then the women start talking..and kids start screaming and yelling, and its just crazy. worse, we had the pray the Eid Salah without the Imam leading us. And after everyone was done, the men were like: "ohh...so you didn't have the mic??" ::) ::) ::) Anywayz, advice for you sister, just ignore the guy. If he is interested in you, he'll come talk to you. [wlm] :-) |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 04/15/04 at 22:26:52 |
| [slm] is there a masjid where this doesnt occur? I was told that it was best for women to pray at home because the same level of supervision that the men enjoy at the masjid is never provided for the women, and this leads to all the stuff you mentioned. And any atempt to change it tends to be too much effort for too little gain and everything goes back the way it was as soon as you quit wearing yourself out over it. I see the same stuff at all Islamic functions around here though even when the men and women are both in the same room. Does anyone besides me ever think that some mothers train their children to be disruptive at public functions? Or if not the mothers then one of the caregivers of the children? Sometimes I think people use blameless children to cary out actions that they cant get away with themselves because they are over the age of blame. |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| jannah |
| 04/16/04 at 02:57:22 |
| [wlm] so what if it's optional/??? in this country the only place for women to get islamically educated is at a masjid. the only place where you can pray in jamah is a masjid. we always tell non-muslims not to take texts out of context yet some people seem to be STUCK on this one text.. all the texts and all the examples should be taken together.. one text that is not the body of islam, it is not our history it is not the way of the future unless you want to keep women ignorant and unislamic. why justify unequal sexist methods in the name of islam.. do you think the mosque of prophet [saw] had degenerate disgusting unequal conditions for women?? |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| theOriginal |
| 04/16/04 at 03:14:15 |
| [slm] brother ft, so your suggestion is to subside potential reforms, and just accept getting a crappy section of the mosque to pray in? come on seriously...it is part of the proper islamic adab to just make things easier for people. seriously one eid i missed the whole prayer because there were all these elderly women who needed help getting to the third floor of the mosque. i seriously think that's harsh...and people should just be more considerate when making elaborate plans to fund mosques. don't look at it from the viewpoint of obligation...just add the human aspect to it, and you might be a little more sympathetic. wasalaam. |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| Nadeem |
| 04/16/04 at 04:13:22 |
| [slm] Wow! This is a really contentious issue for you ladies. I had no idea. Could I just clarify something please: The thing I was trying to get at in my last post, was I didnt quite understand at what point was this eye contact being made. The masjid that I have been to in England are mostly segregated, so I didnt quite get how the sister was getting stared at. Was it in the entrance maybe? I wasnt disputing she was being stared at, I wasnt saying it was okay she was being stared at, I was just tryng to work out how did this occur because I never noticed it myself. I was trying to figure is this a American thing or does it occur here also and I've never noticed . Sister JustOne, :) I can tell that you feel pretty passionate about this topic, but please, I was only asking question out of curiosity about the arrangements in the mosques in America and Canada, and wasn't trying to say anything, so please sister.... chill. :P Last Friday was a public holiday in England. The mosque was rammed! When I got there - early, 10 mins before khutbah starts - the place was packed, and a nice brother was directing people downstairs, saying "More space downstairs brothers". I began the descent down the stairs but then I stopped after a couple of steps. I was faced with large printed signns everywhere, saying "Sisters Only" "No Brothers beyond this point" and so on. I was like ulp! I dont want to go where the sisters are praying, but the brother directing nodded and gestured for me to carry on. When I got down, it was a much smaller area but still large enough. There were no sisters there, and the speaker system worked fine - alhumdulillah - so we could here the khutbah. It made me wonder though where they'd sent the sisters. And I felt bad that maybe they'd been turned away because there wasnt enough space. So what does happen when the mosque is too full, do the sisters get turned away? [wlm] |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| timbuktu |
| 04/16/04 at 04:18:22 |
| [slm] [quote author=JustOne link=board=madrasa;num=1081997874;start=0#4 date=04/15/04 at 15:00:48]...don't read too much into it, maybe he's just staring into space or something, or maybe he looks at everyone without realizing it. It was funny, one day I was walking into our prayer area, and I was kind of spaced out, and staring at something in front of me. Turns out, it was a brother, and I didn't clue in until he cleared his throat and said "Assalaamu Alaikum, excuse me" then ran away. Poor kid. Now he sees me coming down the hall, and he does a 180 and runs away. That's fine with me, btw.. Advice, unlike Jannah, I'd say DON'T tell your friends about it. They'll stare at him and laugh and then he'll get nervous, and he'll start thinking you really like him. That would not be fun, trust me..especially if he likes you. Just ignore him. Completely. It'll good for his ego.[/quote] hilarious :) and I agree don't read too much into it. I have an eye condition due to which I see black floaters, cobwebs, and curtains all the time, and despite being told to ignore them, I sometimes (OK, most of the time), look at them. That to an outsider would appear that I am looking into space, or if someone is there, looking at that person, or worse still, ignoring some acquaintance who is waving hands and I am looking in that that direction, not looking at him but into these fascinating shapes that are in my eyes. Allah (swt) only knows how many have thought me strange, because quite a few have commented on it, and have even become angry with me for not paying attention. and about the women attending the mosque, I am all for it, and their space should be at least as comfortable and attractive as we males try to make our section. and I also agree with that flight of stairs, and smells, and every other comment on it. |
| 04/16/04 at 04:22:15 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| Shahida |
| 04/16/04 at 06:40:43 |
| [slm] I love this thread...for 2 reasons: 1) cuz the sisters keep repeating what we have been saying for years, and 2) the brothers just dont ever seem to *get* it. I don't know why that is, but can testify that it is a global phenomenon, unfortunately. So what if it is optional for women to pray in the mosque? Seriously, I mean SO WHAT? I think most brothers have taken this as a carte blanche sign to consign us to the smallest, crappeist, dirtiest, furthest corners of the mosque, if we even get a place like that at ALL! I Live in a place (yes, I know I have said this before, but nobody seems to be listening, so I will say it again), where we have soooooo many mosques, but I literally have to drive past 5-6 mosques (depending on the route i take) to get to one where women are *allowed* to pray. And the other day, we had the opening of another masjid, and everyone was raving about the fact that they had a section for women, and I turn up there on Friday for Jummu3a, only to find....yup, you guessed it, a TINY little corner, it was not even clean (how much you can achieve with 5 sets of hands and a little water with some cloths is amazing, given so little time before the lecture began, but anyway)...soooo many women arrived, and no matter how we squashed, we could not all fit. :( We were literally praying on top of each other...I heard the door go open several times at the back, and heard people walk back out again. I think that many women just turned around and went home :( :'( A rough count at the end put us at about 40 women, the place I heard afterwards, was built to accomodate only 15 people...cuz you know, women dont have to pray in the mosque ::) Yeah, mashaAllah, we have special senses to be able to sit in our homes (what was it, the darkest, furthest corners of our homes, right) and hear the Khutbah... ::) The mosque is a place where EVERYONE has the right to equal treatment, and equal access to education. People (and I mean the men in particular) just don't seem to get it. May Allah help us. Oh, and another thing: just cuz women of the area dont attend anything at the mosque, doesnt mean that the mosque should not have facilities for women. It happens so often, that people travel through our area, and the men stop to pray at the mosque, while the women are ....stuck in the car!!! Last time I checked, it was compulsory for both genders to pray? The imaam does not even offer his house for the women to pray in. It is just assumed they will pray when they get to the darkest furthest corner of their homes/hotel rooms/guest homes etc. That's just pathetic, sub7anAllah. >:( Sis JO, thats just sad about the old ladies. May Allah make it easier for all of us. To all the bros: it's time to form a new mindset about this issue. To all the sisters: you guys are so lucky if you are welcome at the masjid. There are millions of women around the world who are not:( To the sis who started the thread: I am one of those people who can look straight through people, I get so tired sometimes. But my advice would be, just ignore him. Dont worry that he might think that you might like him etc etc...you are not responsible for someone else's assumptions or thoughts... Ok, I have to go and pray before the men take over the prayer room...yes the saga continues, but that will be left for another day. Wasalaam Shahida :-) |
| 04/16/04 at 07:01:12 |
| Shahida |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| Mossy |
| 04/16/04 at 06:59:27 |
| Salam, If it's best for the women to stay at home rather than go to the masjid.. Why did all the women go to the masjid at the time of the Prophet (pbuh)? Surely they would have taken the "better" option? :) I'd say a dirty look/glare would work wonders here. But you never know with some guys.. Ick.. ws Mossy |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| timbuktu |
| 04/16/04 at 08:04:39 |
| [slm][quote author=Shahida link=board=madrasa;num=1081997874;start=10#14 date=04/16/04 at 06:40:43] I love this thread...for 2 reasons: 1) cuz the sisters keep repeating what we have been saying for years, and 2) the brothers just dont ever seem to *get* it. I don't know why that is, but can testify that it is a global phenomenon, unfortunately. ....... To all the bros: it's time to form a new mindset about this issue.[/quote] hey, I am for the sisters. If I get a new mindset, I will have to go with the status quo. seriously, it is a shame that males treat females this way. and there are many other areas where there is maltreatment or discrimination. I am with you all the way. If only you sisters could persuade my wife and daughter to go with me to the mosque! |
| 04/16/04 at 08:23:28 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 04/16/04 at 09:32:40 |
| [slm] its my understanding that in the time of the prophet [saw] people came to prayer in such a way that the men were in their places with thier backs turned before the women came and then the women left before the men turned around to leave so they were not seen. That way both men and women were able to pray under the dorect leadership of the prophet [saw] without any barier between him and them. But after the prohet [saw] they put up a cord betweent he men and women, then a screen, and it went on from there. What if women prayed on the same level as men but behind a latice? then it would be possible to see if the Imam was standing or siting and it owuld be possible ot hear him somewhat even if the sound system fails. And if the children drown out the khutba, or the wispering sisters, everybody in the masjid will immediately know and can take steps right away. Maybe there can be some sort of organizing so that people who dont know masjid edicate can get instructin immediately and gently, youknow like when people use the masjid and the jumma for socializing and networking, somone might remind them of why they are tere even if they have to go to classes during the week or something. Honestly, I am afraid of the woman's section here locally, It may or may not be better to pray at home, but for me it feels safer. |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| Nadeem |
| 04/16/04 at 10:15:17 |
| [slm] Guys... The original post was about a particular problem a sister had, and here we are on women's rights in the masjid? ::) :-/ Seriously though, just got back from reading Juma (Friday prayers) and again we had to go in the sisters section cos it was soooooo rammed in there (maybe its because of the school Easter holidays). After the discussion here, I did wonder where the poor sisters had to go, ??? but the imam did say "Brothers and Sisters..." so they must have been somewhere. Sister Pebble, the lattice idea is great. In fact one of the mosques I used to go to had exactly this. The women were on a raised level so even if a brother turned round, he will have to crane his neck bigtime and look like a fool, to see up there. At the same time the women can clearly and directly hear and see the imam and whats going on. Okay how about this........ My hometown where I grew up has a large Muslim population (for the UK). There is one big mosque with a dome, another two purpose built mosques, and about another 10 converted buildings. There is a mosque for Pakistanis, mosque for Bengalis, mosque for Arabs,etc. Suprise, suprise, I think there is one mosque that accomodates ladies and even then it is usually closed half the year "due to refurbishment". :( Anyway...... Every time there is some dispute, e.g. "why do you do takbir after every movement, thats it I'm setting up my own mosque" to the more incredulous "Your grandfather stole my grandfathers goat in 1932 in village X in Pakistan, I'm setting up my own mosque >:(". It got me thinking... the examples I described above are undoubtedly divisive and this should never be encouraged as we are already divided enough as an Ummah, but.... how about a ladies mosque? Is that allowed? I mean I'm not scholar, I dont know the rules regarding the imamate of women or whether they can give khutbah or whatever, but if its a ladies mosque why shouldnt women be allowed. As most of the sisters in this thread have related they feel that men are not meeting their needs as regards the prayer area, access to prayer area (for disabled and elderly), they could have a ladies mosque. ADDITIONALLY, you solve the problem of the punk brother who decides to gawp at you. [] #Sisters need to start doing it for themselves# 8) [wlm] |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| theOriginal |
| 04/16/04 at 14:02:15 |
| [slm] Speaking of this, I know of ONE (yes ONE ONLY) mosque in Karachi which has accommodation for women to pray, and I know two in Islamabad. What kind of "unparh jaahil" (illiterate/backwards) mindset is this. Honestly, women in Pakistan do not even know how to pray in Jamaat anymore, because they aren't allowed to attend mosques. I'm not kidding about that...ask a woman to do sujood, and it's all wrong. And you can't go and tell them its all wrong, they start thinking you're straight weird. Plus what would I know, I'm Canadian, right? ::) So women are not allowed to attend mosques, but any other public interaction with men is not only accepted, but encouraged. Lovely logic. This gets prettier by the second. As for a ladies mosque, you've got to be kidding right? This is an Ummah of men AND women. Not an Ummah of men and an Ummah of women. I mean, what I find really funny is that this one mosque has bathrooms for the handicapped on the first floor. (Men on one end, and women on the other)...but during a busy time, the female washroom is changed into a male washroom. Hilarious. I mean come on...we can't build our mosques like this, these are such OBVIOUS problems. Maybe I should switch careers, and become an architect. One of the nicest mosque I have ever seen is the one in Genève. I love the way it is set up, mashaAllah...there is even space for older women, or women with children on the ground floor. Oh and what's incredible is that the khutbah is usually in either french or arabic, but there are a lot of people who don't speak either language, so they have live translators for big days like Eid. (You get a funky looking earpiece..and the other languages are usually arabic/french, english and urdu) Awesome :) The only picture I could find: [url=http://www.uk-ch.org/articles/islam.html]geneva mosque[/url] Wasalaam. |
| 04/16/04 at 14:06:39 |
| theOriginal |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| Trustworthy |
| 04/16/04 at 18:41:57 |
| [slm]... WOW!!! DAAANG!!! Did I miss some fun or what? Anyways…to the Sr. with the problem. I don’t mean to laugh cause it’s not just my eyes that are problematic, but my ears. I have this weird selective listening and seeing kind of thing going on where I only hear what I want to hear and see what I only want to see. The person can be right in front of me and they would have to hit me to get my attention….NO it’s not ADHD or ADD, really it’s not cause I hear fine and see just fine. (Secret…shhh…some times I do it on purpose.) I don’t want to pay attention to a guy I don’t know or hear someone gossiping about someone else…HELLO!!! Forbidden! I mean SALAM!!! Haram! If I do accidentally hear something I shouldn’t or catch someone staring at me when they shouldn’t, ( I hate people who stare, if there’s a problem, come talk to me about it. How hard is that to do? Sheese!) Anyways, I get pretty passionate about it. And you all know how I sometimes go off on a tangent about things. Though I must say, I get a lot of complaints. Sister, just do what I do…”Assalamu-Alaikum, brother. The Prophet [saw]……” and just preach to him something about lowering your gaze and if he asks you about your gaze just tell him that you were in deep thought and he happened to be in the space you were pondering your thoughts at which you didn’t notice until he kept looking your ways all the “FREAKIN” time. But whatever you preach should answer any questions he had about you such as interest or what not and then you won’t have to go through the next step of explaining the other thing. If you don’t want to use that approach, then ignoring him will should do the trick unless he does like you. Or you could just wink at him the next time. He’ll either blush away and never do it again or approach you and then you can preach to him. However, that is bad advice so nevermind. Nadeem, I think she stated that he caught her staring at him (or what he thought) that one time and then the other times it was because…you know how you see something at the corner of your eye and you just have to look to see what’s looking at you…kind of thing, and of course there was someone looking at you. It’s like, what are you looking at? Ma-assalamah.... |
| 04/16/04 at 18:42:21 |
| Trustworthy |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| Trustworthy |
| 04/16/04 at 18:43:02 |
| [slm]... Now. For the masjid situation. Astaghfirullah, how impossible and unconcerned Muslim men can get!!! SALAM!!! Haram! So because a women is outside the home, does that mean that the men ignores them and only shows interest when at home? Uh-uh!!! Men have to take care of their women and children no matter where they roam. SALAM!!! That should say enough. But for those women who’s men are so nonchalant about the care of their Muslimahs….here’s my advice, take a group and make your suggestions/complaints to the Imam. The Imam should know and care cause then he can talk to the men and make it a Khutbah kind of thing. The men and women can trade places in the masjid and have the men keep the children, just for that one time while the women sit with the Imam cause that’s ok. Surely that will work. Now if that does not work, then instead of having your own women’s masjid, just take turns using the masjid and the small noisy children stay at home with dad. If the men disagree, make a separate room (like build an addition) for the children, and have a video display so that you can see the Imam. And for the elder ladies, build an adjoining room to the lower level where the men is and have their sons escort them there. It doesn’t cost that much, I don’t think. Our situation was like this….for a growing community, we had a small one level house that we made into a masjid where we had a tiny section for the women. And the wall was a folding, sliding one….yeah…not feasible cause the men could hear the noisy children as well and they would always tell us…keep our children down. So we complained to the Imam and he discussed it with the men to better the situation. Nothing happened at first so we complained some more. We organized a women’s committee and now we have a better masjid. It was the same one level masjid with an addition to a lower level. What the men did was raised the house up so that they could build a basement for us. When they made the basement, there was an entrance and to get to the men’s entrance you’d have to walk outside and up the stairs. The dad’s took their toddlers and the babies were kept with us. The men also added a video camera for us so that we could see the Imam. Cause sometimes during prayer, the Imam would knock the mic off of him and then we’d be stuck following whomever took lead which sometimes does not work well. And the little girls that prayed with us, sometimes the older ones do it too, will look up at the tv and see the men up which will give us a signal to raise. Once I stayed in sujud cause of my disability of selective listening, I was concentrated to hear the Imam that I only realized it after I had said 15 Sub-Hana-Rubi’al-A’la-Wa-Bihamdi. Another time, I was in sujud of the last rakat when the mic went off, and stayed in sujud until someone thought I was sleeping in sujud and tapped me really hard to try to wake me up. Everyone was leaving. I had to pray again because she broke my concentration. I wasn’t mad just embarrassed. She had tried to ask me if I was ok while I was in sujud and when I did not respond, she tapped me lightly, and then harder to wake me up. I just thought that the Imam was making a long du’a while in sujud because he sometimes does that and so I did as well. Ma-assalamah.... |
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| superFOB |
| 04/17/04 at 04:07:28 |
| [slm] [quote author=Mossy link=board=madrasa;num=1081997874;start=10#15 date=04/16/04 at 06:59:27]If it's best for the women to stay at home rather than go to the masjid.. Why did all the women go to the masjid at the time of the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him)? Surely they would have taken the "better" option?[/quote] Here we go again homey. I am still waiting for that piece that you promised to unleash on us ;) [quote author=timbuktu link=board=madrasa;num=1081997874;start=10#16 date=04/16/04 at 08:04:39]If only you sisters could persuade my wife and daughter to go with me to the mosque![/quote] Seriously chucha, where do you live in karachi? I would love to move my family there. [quote author=Nadeem link=board=madrasa;num=1081997874;start=10#18 date=04/16/04 at 10:15:17] Guys... The original post was about a particular problem a sister had, and here we are on women's rights in the masjid?[/quote] I think the post hit a raw nerve. [quote author=JustOne link=board=madrasa;num=1081997874;start=10#19 date=04/16/04 at 14:02:15]What kind of "unparh jaahil" (illiterate/backwards) mindset is this. Honestly, women in Pakistan do not even know how to pray in Jamaat anymore, because they aren't allowed to attend mosques. I'm not kidding about that...ask a woman to do sujood, and it's all wrong. And you can't go and tell them its all wrong, they start thinking you're straight weird. Plus what would I know, I'm Canadian, right?[/quote] Ya ukhtee, We are all escapees, if we ain't, our parents are--escapees from the same unparh/jaahil mindset and culture that we so detest. Your dis would carry more weight if you had lived in Karachi for a coupla years and then some. Spending a short vacation while ever-ready-to-please khalas (maternal aunts) and phuppos (paternal aunts) treat you like royalty mean little. It's an ugly ugly place out there for women and karachi is supposed to be the most tolerant/educated/religious city in Pakistan! It is not possible, at least for the forseeable future, to let women participate meaningfully through the masjids in the subcontinent. Women participation does happen on a very small scale in Pakistan, they do attend lectures etc but any large scale effort has always backfired. I can think of a multitude of reasons for this failure, but lets argue when we have a level playing field. As far as doing sujood in the wrong way, I am sure you are aware that hanafi women pray a little different from men, sujood included. As far as being unable to see the imam is concerned, I have, for much of my life, prayed in a multi storeyed masjid where its impossible to see the imam. Have prayed when the temperature hits 40+ celsius with NO electricity, have prayed when the mic/speakers didn't work, have prayed isha in pitch darkness, have prayed on the streets when the masajid overflow during ramadan, have prayed in ramadan where a multitude can't find place to pray! Nobody complains there! Maybe people over there are lemmings, or maybe they don't have high expectations, maybe they are more patient and content. To them these complains would seem more like an affluent society problem, a "nakhra" as they would say in urdu. For instance, even if you see the imam, aren't women supposed to lower their gaze? If the mic fails, many MEN can't also hear the imam. A large percentage of men in large masjids can't see the imam either. That said, I do believe that women should be involved in some kind of activity in the masjid but that should not happen on the whim of or under pressure from any person or group. - FOB PS: I have yet to visit a masjid in these US without a women's section or one with a shoddy nook reserved for them. Go figure. |
| 04/17/04 at 04:23:52 |
| superFOB |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| Nadeem |
| 04/17/04 at 06:29:42 |
| [slm] Salam. [quote author=JustOne link=board=madrasa;num=1081997874;start=10#19 date=04/16/04 at 14:02:15] [slm] As for a ladies mosque, you've got to be kidding right? This is an Ummah of men AND women. Not an Ummah of men and an Ummah of women. .[/quote] Sister, there are some people who get passionate about certain issues. Of course its good to do so. But surely we shouldnt rubbish the first suggestion that is put forward. If there is something forbidding a ladies mosque then fair enough, but otherwise.... ??? [quote]I mean, what I find really funny is that this one mosque has bathrooms for the handicapped on the first floor. (Men on one end, and women on the other)...but during a busy time, the female washroom is changed into a male washroom. Hilarious. I mean come on...we can't build our mosques like this, these are such OBVIOUS problems. Maybe I should switch careers, and become an architect. [/quote] Exactly. I was just saying that women understand their own needs better. I was trying to suggest something that might empower with particular regard to masjid space for sisters. Or maybe sisters need to get involved at the planning stage of the mosque to make sure they are fully accomodated. Anyway, i didnt mean for my comments to work anybody up, so forgive me if it has offended. Wa salam [wlm] |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| timbuktu |
| 04/17/04 at 06:46:24 |
| [slm] generally speaking, the masajid under the administration of ahl-e-Hadith do have a section for women, at least for Juma`a prayers. And so too, in Eidgahs. At Karachi the ones I know are at 1. Burns Road, 2. Jamia Masjid ahe-e-Hadith at Frere Road oppposite Pakistan Quarters, 3. aik Minara Masjid at Society, and there are many, many more. I will try and get a list if any one is interested. I do not live at Karachi. I am now at Islamabad. Here you have separate sections for women at Faisal Mosque. Sometimes just outside the Main Hall you have saffs, and I have seen women pray there. Then there is Jamia Masjid ahl-e-Hadith near the CDA municipal adminstration offices. I think it would be G-6. The road to take is opposite the Lal Masjid. Then there is one in G-9, and there must be others. I will try and get a list if anyone is interetsed. In the initial stages, the Jamaat-e-Islami was influenced to some extent by the ahle Hadith, and the jamaat women are quite active, so they too probably have separate sections for women. I saw women praying behind men in a Bosnian setup. Why don't other women do the same? Just do it, and let the masjid administrators scrtach their heads at this rebellion. |
| 04/17/04 at 10:30:05 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 04/17/04 at 10:05:07 |
| [slm] Actually it is possible to get a lot of visual information through periferal vision, like whether the imam is standing or sitting or waving his arms or pacing, also at least at lectures I have found that it helps to have a quick glimpse of the expression on the imams face to be able to see where he is headed with something, though it has to be done quickly or you can really mess up his train of thought. I realize the serious obsticles to increasing sister participation in some places , but I also think the lack of it contributes to the problems that occur in countries where we can participate. I think it is because of the vast gulf between religious education for brothers and for sisters. I mean just like I mentioned above, it is a fact that imams get squirmy when even an educated well intentioned woman checks their expression or gestures for the deeper levels of meaning, and this is a lot of the information transmitted. Few sisters even know about things like this. I dont know what to do about it. I'm the first to scream at people who say muslim women cant get religious education, but I also know such women who do get to be on a par withthe top men are less than one in a million and the labor that goes into their education is far greater than that of their male counterparts because of all the note passings and screen erectings and proxy findings that just arent necessary for men. but then women always have been expected to carry more for less compensation, and that is just a global generalization. |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| theOriginal |
| 04/17/04 at 16:36:36 |
| [slm] Just going to apologize for the numerous people I have offended (judging from my IMs)... I sincerely ask you for your forgiveness. Wasalaamu Alaikum. |
| Re: Wrong Presumptions? |
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| timbuktu |
| 04/17/04 at 23:27:27 |
| [quote author=JustOne link=board=madrasa;num=1081997874;start=20#26 date=04/17/04 at 16:36:36]Just going to apologize for the numerous people I have offended (judging from my IMs)...[/quote] what is in your posts that offended people? |
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