A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| A Discussion for All |
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| amika |
| 04/20/04 at 20:19:17 |
| [slm], I used to think once upon a time that it didn't matter what religion a person belonged to as long as that person was good. Now, after embracing Islam, I know that there is something seriously seriously wrong with this kind of thinking. Anyone know why thinking in this way is wrong? Br. Nadeem any suggestions? :) |
| 04/23/04 at 14:10:44 |
| amika |
| Re: A Discussion for Intellectuals |
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| Nadeem |
| 04/21/04 at 00:39:14 |
| [slm] ;D Hahaha Im not an intellectual! At least I don't think I am. :D [quote author=nobody link=board=madrasa;num=1082506757;start=0#0 date=04/20/04 at 20:19:17]I used to think once upon a time that it didn't matter what religion a person belonged to as long as that person was good. Now, after embracing Islam, I know that there is something seriously seriously wrong with this kind of thinking. Anyone know why thinking in this way is wrong?[/quote] I guess the short answer to this is: This way of thinking will mean we suffer the bad consequences if we fail to choose THE right path. When I read this question I thought of the hadith relating the story of Umar (ra) who cried when he saw a devout monk. Something like "So many good deeds going to waste, because he is doing good deeds on the wrong path". Forgive me, if thats not accurate. Sister, I think this is quite a tricky issue. The problem lies, I feel, in whether we become too dogmatic and rigid about the way we do things whatever faith or philosophy we live by (I mean this in a general sense and not to anyone specific). The thing is, we as Muslims believe that our book is THE right book from God. Christians, in the main believe that Jesus was the ONLY being to die for all of our sins, and therefore they've got THE right way. Both Christian and Jewish faiths reject "false prophets" and it seems most have taken that to mean, anyone who came after Jesus for Christians, and not-sure-who for Jews. We've only looked at the monothestic religions so far. Hindus believe that we will, if we are good, be reincarnated in a higher form, and eventually attain Nirvana. Buddhist philosophy based on strict mediation and Taoist philosophy based on being with "The One" are aimed at gaining spiritual enlightenment in a lifetime. Atheists belive we are all deluded and there is nothing except what can be proven by science (Astagfirullah). There are many others. Almost EVERYONE believes their way is THE right way, apart from a growing number of people today making personal religion, i.e. getting a pick-and-mix of bits from different religions that suit them. If we try and tell people THEY are wrong, and WE are right, a few will say "oh yeah you're right!". Most people will switch off, get defensive or may even lose faith in all religion. So what's the answer? Not sure entirely, but I guess the best way is to SHOW people, to tell people ABOUT Islam and not necessarily whether their faith is right or wrong. We believe we have knowledge of the right way, Islam. And of course many of us want to share that with everyone. Problem is, the WAY in which we share that may be the difference between whether they "hear" the Truth or not. The importance is *I* believe in Allah/God and I recognise him as the Creator and Lord above all things, and as such I want to do what pleases him and worship him. I thijk this is the main Truth, and anything after that is additional. The real issue is whether people believe THIS. If they do, then we can say "and we believe Muhammad(pbuh) was Allah's messenger". If people truly believe in God, as I described above, and want to please their Creator, then it would be strange if they didnt at least look at Quran and Hadith. So if a Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, new-age religion, white witch, whatever believes that the point of life is to know your Creator and to worship him, then this is a good base, and if they believe this and hear about God's Messenger (pbuh) then they will want to hear what he had to say. I hope. Inshallah :) [wlm] ;-) |
| Re: A Discussion for Intellectuals |
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| sal |
| 04/21/04 at 01:35:38 |
| [slm] I think :-/ It is because you became conscious ALLAH is one and ask why there should be different religions for the same ALLAH? I think this is the way you think but this is not wrong because if you mean the right religions like Christianity(the correct) since ISLAM is the last version of it a person is supposed to join to the improved one. This is the way any thing should be taken How ever since you might have understood people are believing man made dupe faith as a religion so you are pity for them and again this is not wrong but a kind of wish for the better You are like finding mine of the precious thing you want others to share you This is once again very kind feeling of you :) |
| Re: A Discussion for Intellectuals |
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| Mossy |
| 04/21/04 at 05:33:25 |
| Find and read a copy of [url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195797914/qid=1082542034/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-3283970-5955815?v=glance&s=books&n=507846]this work[/url] by al-ghazali with Jackon's notes. The perennialism of religion has been a somewhat contentious issue within the muslim world. We know that no people are punished until a messenger is sent unto them, but what defines a people? We have the Shariah - the will of Allah (swt) which we, as muslims, interpret the boundaries of by our akkham, our rules, derived from fiqh. We also have other aspects to our religion other than these boundaries - after all, they delineate the boundaries of being "good", but do not necessarily make one good within - hence we have the concept of riya, simulation, when one carries out an action for an ulterior motive, eg giving charity to please oneself rather than for the love of Allah (swt). We have the care of our spiritual side - purification of the soul. We have actions which ultimately draw us, insh'Allah, closer to Allah (swt) - aiming to emulate his qualities - for example, looking at al-ghazali's ihya, he indicates that one of the reasons for fasting is to emulate the Divine quality of samadiyyat, freedom from want. If one looks at other religions, each of these, by definition almost, will contain elements of the Truth, with particular regard to Judaism and Christianity. Even Hinduism contains an aspect with the idea of "Brahman", the ultimate Divine of which all other "gods" are but avatars - ie attributes of it. Buddhist/taoist philosophy emphasises the need to, by meditation (just as we are indicated to meditate), achieve nirvana, ie complete closeness to the Divine, which is, effectively, a cleansed soul, free of the wants of the dunya. I think it's interesting that the number of "messengers" seems to be so high - 124,000 by some counts.. We see from hadith that all people are born "muslim", but then can be changed by society to something other than muslim. The question then arises, do we have an innate sense of right/wrong? What is a good way to interact and what is not? Do we have the sense that there is one ultimate "being", a single Divine? Everyone is tested according to their means - everyone is responsible for their own burdens. If one is not in a position where one can hear of Islam, their deeds will be weighed according to this. Islam, is, however, the final truth. Whatever Islam happens to be given the various disagreement over even such base foundations as aqeedah, heh.. It is interesting to note that the only sin that is not subject to forgiveness without repentance during life is shirk.. But for now I need breakfast :) If you look at the works of William Chittick and Sachiko Murata, you can see some of the interrelations they draw. Not something for anyone who disapproves of Tassawuf or of including shia as muslims however :) |
| 04/21/04 at 05:36:23 |
| Mossy |
| Re: A Discussion for Intellectuals |
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| amika |
| 04/22/04 at 22:33:53 |
| [slm], There are good Christians, good Hindus, good Jews, good Buddhists.......even good atheists. In fact, a lot of people think they are good. They are kind, friendly and pretty helpful too. They do not hurt anyone. They do not lie, cheat or steal. All religions teach good. What is good and what is evil is pretty clear. We have been given a conscience that helps us to distinguish between right and wrong. So what does it matter what religion a person belongs to? A person really doesn't need a religion to understand how to be good. I know of a Christian couple who have been very good and kind to me. I think they are good people. But in the eyes of Allah, they are no good. You're good only if you are muslim and submit to Allah. This is Islam. Sounds rather harsh, doesn't it? Truth is bitter sometimes. Anyway, after you know what the Truth is, you certainly know that it certainly matters A LOT what religion you belong to. If you are a Christian, that is a problem. Even if you are a good Christian. If you are a good Hindu, that is a problem. If you are a good atheist, that is a problem. No religion but Islam is acceptable to Allah but Islam. And this is a decision Allah has made. A final decision. Pretty serious stuff. |
| Re: A Discussion for Intellectuals |
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| UmmWafi |
| 04/23/04 at 00:17:58 |
| [slm] [quote]But in the eyes of Allah, they are no good.[/quote] The main reason preventing me from joining this discussion is the fact that I do not consider myself an intellectual. That being so, I am curious about the statement quoted above. I have several questions pertaining to that claim. 1) How can we authoritatively speak for certain how Allah SWT judge a person ? 2) What about ayahs that : a) address the non-believers and assure them that they will be judged according to their knowledge and deeds ? b) repeatedly state that only Allah SWT alone Knows the fate of each and every of His creations in the Hereafter ? PS Bro Mossy, in William Chiitick's book :The Sufi's Path of Love : Works of Jalaluddin Rumi, he mentioned some pretty awesome stuff about God's Attribute of Love and Mercy. PPS I think mentioning a book doesn't constitute discussing Sufism no ? :) Wassalam |
| Re: A Discussion for Intellectuals |
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| jannah |
| 04/23/04 at 01:43:34 |
| [quote] But in the eyes of Allah, they are no good. You're good only if you are muslim and submit to Allah. This is Islam. Sounds rather harsh, doesn't it? Truth is bitter sometimes. [/quote] [wlm] Sorry I disagree. First of all, I doubt any of us here can tell us all who is no good in the eyes of Allah. The only thing we can do is look to what the Quran and Hadith tells us. And they clearly describe the actions and beliefs Allah loves and the one's he doesn't. But can we truly tell if a person is "no good" in the "eyes of Allah"? We certainly don't have His Knowledge and we certainly cannot make that end judgement. (Remember the prostitute woman who gave a dying dog some water and Allah forgave her... would any of us have even thought it?) About being "good"... that's really a subjective term. I think there are alot of good people in the world, Hindu, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Bhuddist etc... About who is going to heaven or not, who is Muslim or not, who is Kafir or not, let's leave that to the academic legal discussions of scholars who evaluate the texts and evidence. This isn't really an intellectual issue since it is one of such grave importance -- it must come from the Shari'ah of Islam. It shouldn't be made by humans who's hawa and shahwa interfere. |
| Re: A Discussion for Intellectuals |
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| Maliha |
| 04/23/04 at 06:40:45 |
| [slm] this is certainly not a discussion for "intellectuals"...not that any of us web surfers qualify for that term anyway. It is hardly a question for the Shuyukh, since this is one of those areas that are strictly *ghayb*. Can a mere mortal even begin to conceive what Allah's gaze is? Can we even begin to contemplate the Creator of the Heavens and Earth, the Bestower, the Most Merciful and Compassionate, the Originator, the One...can we even begin to contemplate what *His* vision encompasses? In the past Islam spread not through the sword, not even the all too often misconstrued "Dawah" we all harp about...Islam spread solidly through the actions, integrity, kindness, nobility, and Mercy of its followers. If we study the spread, especially in Northern and Eastern Africa, the effect has been amazing. In a couple of generations, Masjids were built all over, schools were open, and people were flocking to the deen. The most recent case of Rwanda was awestriking...after the genocide, in recent years many people became Muslims, on being interviewed, they said that during the genocide the Hutus and Tutsis that were Muslim adamantly *refused* to partake in the slaughter of their brothers and sisters. These great men and women gave shelter to *Christians*, *tribal people*, and everyone else in their Masajids and homes. While the priests and chiefs were engaged in the senseless massacre. This simple act of showing what true Islam stands for, made people realize the immensity of this religion. (This story was actually in the New York times a couple of weeks ago..front page!) If Muslims today, who are the upholders of the Risala/Message, are *not* conveying it properly, and are making people *literally* run away from this beautiful deen, how are people supposed to even know what true submission looks like? Do we know what it means to show true humbleness, true kindness, true beauty of the soul that emanates and attracts people without us so much saying a word? Can we blame the people if they turn away from this deen due to *our* own attitude and actions? Look at our own petty squabblings. Look at the fact that it is *non* Muslims that are heading the movements on Justice and Peace, it is *non* Muslims that are flying to Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistant to provide aid to *our* brothers and sisters, it is *non* Muslims that are on the front lines for the environment debates, it is the *non* Muslims that are feeding the homeless in all urban cities, it is the *non* Muslims providing battered women shelters, running free clinics...the list goes on. What is Islam? Is it preaching to pray day and night? Or is it going out there and engagin the world and changing it for the better. Can we blame people that are blind to this amazing faith, when we ourselves are leading it blindly? How dare we relegate them to the doors of hell, when our own Masajids, lands, hearts are fuelling with senselessness and confusion? Can we invite guests into a dishevelled home? We gotta get our act together, and invite people through the most beautiful doors of actual knowledge, sincerity in actions, and reaching out to people not in a missionary "you take the Quran and i give you food kinda way" but in a way that is done Fee Sabillillah completely. And see just how many people will *want* to know about this amazing path that is trodden by great souls..not a flimsy pretext to show people the theoretical beauty of "true" Islam, when Muslims are wallowing in the pits of despair and madness. sigh...discussions like these are too depressing... [wlm] |
| 04/23/04 at 06:41:34 |
| Maliha |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| amika |
| 04/23/04 at 14:32:44 |
| [slm], Can somebody interpret these verses please? "Say: "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds? "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?" 18:103-104 "Those who reject (Truth) among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists will be in hell-fire to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures." 98:6 There are many other verses besides these which explain to the reader that disbelief and associating partners with Allah will be rewarded with Hell. Believers will be rewarded with Paradise. Disbelievers will get Hell as their portion. This is not my opinion. Why would Allah send people to Hell if He sees some good in them? If anyone were to say that Allah perhaps may see some good in me......even if I am a polytheist or Christian......then why on earth should I choose Islam as my religion?! I can be a good Christian (like my husband was) or even remain a good atheist. I can say.....well let God decide if there is any good in me! There is no need for me to pray 5 times a day or follow the example of the prophet. I can be good without the religion of Islam. But the Qur'an makes things clear. I cannot afford to be anything else but muslim. These verses are clear: "O ye who believe! fear Allah as He should be feared and die not except in a state of Islam." 3:102 And now........if I have misunderstood these words of Allah.....I would certainly like to be corrected. I would love to know that I am wrong. And if anyone can prove to me I am wrong.....I shall be more than pleased to go back to some other religion. |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| Trustworthy |
| 04/23/04 at 17:20:37 |
| [slm]... Warning: Mind in state of rambling….which could be a dangerous thing. “In the state of Islam.” What is the meaning of Islam? To submit to God (STA). However, the ayat says, STATE not DEEN which means religion. There’s the verb and then there’s the religion. Now I’ve heard Muslims say that you can’t enter Jannah unless you’re a Muslim and they always follow with “and every Muslim will enter Jannah no matter how bad they are. They’ll be punished for a duration of time in Hell, but later on proceed to Jannah.” This is what every other monotheistic religion thinks. Islam is not just every other monotheistic religion. If you read closer, you’ll see that a Muslim means believer. There are 5 Holy Books that Muslims must believe in: the Injeel (Bible), Taurat (Torah), Dead Sea Scrolls, Ten Commandments, and the Qur’an ( I think this is correct, correct me if I’m wrong.) If you’re a believer, you’re a believer and if you submit to Allah (STA) then you’re in a state of Islam. Question is: If you believe in the Bible and not the Qur’an would that count and vice versa? The Prophet [saw]and the religion of Islam did not popularized until after the Injeel. And the Injeel did not change until after Isa (A’layhissalam) so for a Muslim to believe it now would be wrong. Are these exceptions? Another thing to consider is that we all know that Allah (STA) is Fair and Just. We know that only Allah (STA)knows. Only Allah(STA) Knows. With that said, ONLY ALLAH (STA)KNOWS!!! Let’s just pray that we all die in a state of Islam, insha-Allah. Ameen. Ma-assalamah…. |
| 04/23/04 at 17:22:32 |
| Trustworthy |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| theOriginal |
| 04/23/04 at 17:32:11 |
| [slm] Some of the most humble people I've met have not been Muslim. It's a shame really that I haven't come across that in my own (muslim) community. Perhaps it's not enough to believe in God, but I think that on the same token, it simply can't be enough to be identified as muslim, and to lack those qualities Islam stresses. I have met people who love and respect Islam and its values, but who just won't convert. So is it better to be Muslim and not know it, or is it better to think you're Muslim and not act upon it? I don't know...I'm asking you. Wasalaam. |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| stranger |
| 04/23/04 at 20:04:28 |
| [slm] I just thought I would share this hadith: On the authority of Jundub (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) related: A man said: By Allah, Allah will not forgive So-and-so. At this Allah the Almighty said: Who is he who swears by Me that I will not forgive So-and-so? Verily I have forgiven So-and-so and have nullified your [own good] deeds (1) (or as he said [it]). (1) A similar Hadith, which is given by Abu Dawud, indicates that the person referred to was a goldly man whose previous good deeds were brought to nought through presuming to declare that Allah would not forgive someone's bad deeds. It was related by Muslim. So I think we should be careful and not say what Allah subhana wata'alaa would do and just try to be good ourselves and inshAllah it would be accepted from us. [slm] |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| superFOB |
| 04/23/04 at 20:21:28 |
| [slm] Sister aminah, its very easy to lose sight of the bigger picture when we dwell too much on the detail. What you NEED, imho, is a shaykh, who has the right answers for you. Now I am not talking about your regular imam, most of whom are mere employees, but real shyookh who have spent considerable time and made effort to learn the deen from the best sources available. It will require an effort on YOUR part as well, deen is not cheap. Actually, its recommended that everyone should have a shaykh whom they go for advice and act upon whatever is advised. [quote author=JustOne link=board=madrasa;num=1082506757;start=10#10 date=04/23/04 at 17:32:11] [slm] Some of the most humble people I've met have not been Muslim. It's a shame really that I haven't come across that in my own (muslim) community. Perhaps it's not enough to believe in God, but I think that on the same token, it simply can't be enough to be identified as muslim, and to lack those qualities Islam stresses. I have met people who love and respect Islam and its values, but who just won't convert. So is it better to be Muslim and not know it, or is it better to think you're Muslim and not act upon it? I don't know...I'm asking you. Wasalaam.[/quote] Being humble out of ignorance and being humble with the knowledge that it is the order of Allah CAN NOT be equal. A person who has said the shahadah--that no diety is worthy of worship save Allah, Muhammad is the Rasool of Allah--is more precious to Allah then all the mushrikeen and the dwalleen (those gone astray) combined. You see, us muslims are not here by mere chance but have been SENT to enjoin good and forbid evil. Thats why shaitan goes after the muslims, not the non-muslims, 'cause the non-muslims are already misguided, and all their actions would amount to naught on the day of judgement. Thats why you see all the really nasty stuff going on in the ummah. But that does not mean that the non-muslims are sub human, remember that all of the sahabah were mushrikeen before the prophethood of Rasoolallah (SAW). Who knows where the next 'Umar or ikrimah is (RA). |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| anon |
| 04/23/04 at 20:55:17 |
| [slm] The issue at hand is important as it is necessary for Muslims to believe that Islam abrogated all other religions and is the only valid way! There are two questions related to the issue. 1. Is it 'ok' to be a non Muslim after the prophethood of Muhammad (saws) ? 2. What will happen to the disbelievers. 1. -- Imam Nawwawi says: Someone who does not believe that whoever follows another religion besides Islam is an unbeliever (like Christians), or doubts that such a person is an unbeliever, or considers their sect to be valid, is himself an unbeliever (kafir) even if he manifests ISlam and believes in it. (Rawda al-talibin, 10.70). The above position of Imam Nawwawi is the Shafi'i position and is also the position of the the other three schools of thought (so there is ijma on this issue). For example see: Hanafi (Ibn Abidin: Radd al-Muhtar, 3.287) Maliki (al-Dardir: al Sharh al saghir, 4.435) Hanbali (al-Bahuti: Kash-shaf al qina', 6.170) The works mentioned above are the foremost fatwa resources in their respective schools. Some of the proof for the above ruling includes: Muhammad (saws) said: By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad (saws), any person of this Community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believeing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell. The hadith is sahih, and is related in Muslim, and by Abd al-Razzaq in his Musanaf and other books of hadith. "Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam will never have it accepted from him, and shall be of those who have truly failed in hte next life." (Koran, 3:85). 2. -- Scholars divide disbelieving people into two categories Category 1. People who have not been reached by the message of the Prophet (saws) of Islam. Such people will not be pusnished: "We do no punish until we send a Messenger" (Koran 17:15) Imam Ghazalli includes in this category those who have been reached with a distorted picture of the Messeger of Islam (saws). Category 2. Peopel who turn away from God's divine message of Islam, rejecting it, whether it is because of sticking to the religion of their ancestors or for some other reason. (People who are not sane are excluded from this category.) Rejecting includes (but is not limited to) associating partners with Allah or rejecting the laws brought down by His messenger (saws). Such people have violated God's right and have accepted to goto hell, which is precisely what His messengers have warned them of. ----------- I posted because I felt not everyone knew the above, and we should know it! Knowing and believing in 1 is essential. Nur pointing out some important things in her post. We should be careful not to label people as the inhabitants of hell fire but rather try to do as much dawah as we can. We must never forget that we do not know how we will die. We may die in the state of kufr whereas a blatant kafir of today opressing Muslims may die a pious Muslim. We must remember that in our dealings with non Muslims, and try to do dawah with our words and actions. May Allah (swt) give us the tawfeeq to do so. |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| Mona |
| 04/23/04 at 21:32:26 |
| [slm] well the way i see it is that yes being muslim is better than being non. i am happy that i am muslim, and hope to die in a state of iman. otherwise, why am i still muslim if all other options are equally good? inertia? i don't think all religions available today are all good. they are not evil, but i cannot say that they are good. yes, many non-muslims display various goodness like honesty, tidiness, efficiency, being on time, politeness, creativity, humbleness. so? big deal. many muslims have the qualities of munafiqeen (hypocrites). so? big deal, they have been around since the time of the prophet [saw]. i have no qualms with the notion that true muslims are the best people. it is just a fact and we should all aspire to better our iman, without losing compassion for others who are not muslim. i am not sure why are we having such discussion. take care wassalam p.s. to trustworthy: muslims believe in the following books: 1. suhuf (book of ibraheem, there is no trace of it remaining), 2. torah (book of musa), 3. pslams (or zaboor, book of dawood or david), 4. gospels (or injeel, book of eesa), and 5.quran. **we don't believe in the dead sea scrolls. ** |
| 04/23/04 at 21:47:06 |
| Mona |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| sal |
| 04/24/04 at 04:09:56 |
| [slm] I think this wa y *if some one does some thing good for the sake of ALLAH he will be paid by ALLAH for his effort in heaven and I think the person who does things for ALLAH obviously knows what the right religion and work to be done is * Muslem can look good but that work might not be for the sake of ALLAH so such work is not recognized by ALLAH there fore braging to be MUSLEM with no good relation with ALLAH is not useful at all *There are other good people and they believe they are doing this only for their life and not for ALLAH such kind of people will get the result of heir work on earth We don’t have to care for who is good and who is bad *The good is good for him/herself and the bad is bad for himslef this should not mean to compare people religoiusly because we don’t know the end of each one Make duaa for all and [quote]i am not sure why are we having such discussion.[/quote] [center];D ;D ;D ;D[/center] [wlm] |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| Maliha |
| 04/24/04 at 05:10:01 |
| [slm] Amina are you a Muslim because everyone else is going to hell ??? I would hope you have deeper reasons than that. Allah indicates *many* different kinds of people who will go to hell: the Munafiqoon/hypocrites are the so called "muslims" who will actually dwell in the lowest rung of hell fire (may Allah protect us all), the ungrateful, the disbelievers (the ones who actually received the message, understood it, *and* refused it), the polytheists etc. Belief and good deeds go hand in hand...there are many Muslims that have the former (barely) and definitely lack the latter...there are Non Muslims who have no idea of Islam (in our definitional sense) and they have all but submitted through their actions. At the end of the day, this is *not* our realm. We do not relegate people to hell and heaven (And Alhamdullillah for that), for Allah's Mercy prevails, and this is strictly His Jurisdiction. Lastly, I really want to stress what Superfob said, if you are truly sincere about your search for knowledge, the web is not the place to learn. You need to go to an Islamic institution there are some in the US and *many* abroad. There is a saying amongst Shuyukh that those that learn from books have shaytaan as their "shaykh". Too many misinterpretations, wrong assumptions, misunderstanding, etc *will* result..and little knowledge is a really dangerous thing. We don't think Islam is important enuff to study in a formal way, or it should be "really" easy right? We can just pick up a translated copy of someone else's understanding of the Quran and read, pick up a book of unsystemized copy of someone else's understanding of Hadith and we are ready to be super muslims. The reality is that its not that easy, and our shuyukh from the time of the Prophet [saw] understood that. People would travel miles, sacrificing everything to learn under another's feet. In the same way we won't dare say we are qualified to practice Medicine today after reading a couple *translated* medical texts...we seem to be okay to apply this sort of mediocre thinking to Islam. I really think, if more people systematically sought out knowledge, we would lose the black and white type of thinking and begin to understand like many of the greatest souls that have trekked this path, this world is actually very complex with various shades of meaning and depths...and the Quran is much deeper than it all combined. I sincerely hope you internalize some of what has been said here...i get worried about the way you view things sometimes... May Allah guide us all and increase us in knowledge and wisdom. (amin). [wlm] |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| Mossy |
| 04/24/04 at 06:35:44 |
| You know.. Hell isn't necessarily bad.. There are hadith which indicate that he who enters it (as opposed to is dragged to it) will find it safe and cool - this includes the old man who heard too late, the one who came between reveleation, the insane man who could not comprehend and the deaf man who, quite simply, could not hear.. I recommend al-Ghazali's faysal al tafriqa again, found here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195797914/qid=1082542034/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-3283970-5955815?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 Good notes. The funny thing is, even when asking shaykhs you will generally only get one viewpoint - ie that of the madhab of the shaykh (if indeed he has one). I think the main thing with the web is that you can get a number of different interpretations by those with knowledge, conveyed by those who have less ;) The danger comes in interpreting ayat/hadith for yourself without reference to the works of scholars.. |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| bhaloo |
| 04/24/04 at 09:04:16 |
| [slm] From Islam-Qa, Sheikh Munajjid was asked: Question : What are the consequences for one who does not adhere to Islam? Answer : Praise be to Allaah. As you know, Islam is the religion of Allaah, and it is the true religion. It is the religion which was brought by all the Prophets and Messengers. Allaah has prepared a great reward in this world and in the hereafter for those who believe in it, and He has prepared a severe punishment for those who disbelieve in it. Allaah is the Creator and Sovereign, the One Who is in control of this universe, and you, O man, are part of His creation; He has subjugated to you all that is in the universe, and has prescribed His laws for you, which He has commanded you to follow. If you believe and obey what He has commanded you and keep away from what He has prohibited to you, then you will attain that eternal bliss which He has promised you in the Hereafter, and you will be happy in this world because of the different kinds of blessings which He will bestow upon you, and you will be akin to the most wise of creation and the purest in heart, namely the Prophets, Messengers, righteous and angels who are close to Allaah. But if you disbelieve and disobey your Lord, you will lose in this world and in the Hereafter. You will be exposed to His wrath and punishment in this world and in the Hereafter. You will be akin to the most evil and foolish of creation, and worse than the devils, wrongdoers, evildoers and false gods. This is in general terms. I will explain to you something about the consequences of kufr, the details of which are as follows: 1 – Fear and lack of security Allaah has promised those who believe in Him and follow His Messengers complete security in this world and in the Hereafter. He says (interpretation of the meaning): “It is those who believe (in the Oneness of Allaah and worship none but Him Alone) and confuse not their Belief with Zulm (wrong, i.e. by worshipping others besides Allaah), for them (only) there is security and they are the guided” [al-An’aam 6:82] Allaah is al-Mu’min (the Giver of security) and al-Muhaymin (the Watcher over His creatures); He is the Sovereign of all that exists in the universe. If Allaah loves a person for his faith then He will grant him security, tranquility and contentment. If a man disbelieves in Him He will take away his tranquility and security, so you will only see him either fearful about his destiny in the Hereafter, or fearing sickness for himself, or fearing for his future in this world. This is why the insurance business was established, to insure people’s lives and property, because of the lack of security and the lack of trust in Allaah. 2 – A life of hardship Allaah has created man and has subjugated to him all that is in the universe. He has decreed for every creature its share of provision and its life span. So you see the bird going out from its nest in the morning to seek its provision, which it picks up, flying from branch to branch and singing the most beautiful songs. Man is one of these creatures whose provision and lifespan is already allocated. If he believes in his Lord and adheres to His laws, He will bless him with happiness and stability, and make things easy for him, even if he is only given the bare necessities of life. But if he disbelieves in Him, and arrogantly refuses to worship him, He will make his life hard and fill him with worries and distress, even if he possesses all kinds of comforts and luxuries. Do you not see how many suicides in the world are committed by people who have all kinds of luxuries? Do you not see the extravagant spending on furniture and travel aimed at enjoying life? What makes people spend extravagantly is the fact that their hearts are devoid of faith, and their feeling that life is difficult and hard; it is an attempt to rid themselves of these feelings by ever-changing means. Allaah indeed spoke the truth when He said: “But whosoever turns away from My Reminder (i.e. neither believes in this Qur’aan nor acts on its teachings) verily, for him is a life of hardship, and We shall raise him up blind on the Day of Resurrection” [Ta-Ha 20:124] 3 – He will live in conflict with himself and with the universe around him That is because his own soul was created to believe in and worship Allaah alone (i.e., Tawheed). Allaah says: “Allaah’s Fitrah (i.e. Allaah’s Islamic Monotheism) with which He has created mankind”[al-Room 30:30] His body submits to its Creator, and acts in accordance with His system, but the kaafir insists on going against his own innate nature and lives in such a way that in matters where he is given a choice, he always chooses to follow the way which goes against the command of his Lord, so even if his body is surrendering to the laws of Allaah, in matters of choice he chooses to oppose the laws of Allaah. He is in a state of conflict with the universe around him, because this entire universe, from the hugest galaxies to the tiniest insect is operating in accordance with the laws that Allaah has decreed for it. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Then He rose over (Istawa) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: ‘Come both of you willingly or unwillingly.’ They both said: ‘We come willingly’”[Fussilat 41:11] Indeed, this universe loves the one who also submits to Allaah, and it hates the one who goes against that. The kaafir is the rebellious one in this universe, where he sets himself up in opposition to his Lord, rallying others to oppose Him too. Hence it comes as no surprise that the heavens and the earth and all creatures hate him and hate his kufr and heresy. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And they say: ‘The Most Gracious (Allaah) has begotten a son (or offspring or children) [as the Jews say: ‘Uzayr (Ezra) is the son of Allaah, and the Christians say that He has begotten a son [‘Eesa (Jesus)], and the pagan Arabs say that He has begotten daughters (angels and others)].’ Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing. Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins, That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Gracious (Allaah). But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Gracious (Allaah) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children). There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Gracious (Allaah) as a slave”[Maryam 19:88-93] And Allaah says of Pharaoh and his troops: “And the heavens and the earth wept not for them, nor were they given a respite”[al-Dukhaan 44:29] 4 – He will live in ignorance For kufr is ignorance, indeed it is the greatest form of ignorance, because the kaafir is ignorant of his Lord and he sees this universe that He created in such an amazing way, and he sees how great is his own creation, then he ignores the One Who created this universe and Who created him. Is this not the greatest form of ignorance? 5 – He will wrong himself and wrong those around him Because he is subjugating himself to something other than that for which he was created, and because he does not worship his Lord, rather he worships someone other than Him. Wrongdoing means putting something in the wrong place, and what wrongdoing is greater than directing worship to someone other than the One Who deserves it? Luqmaan the Wise said, explaining the abhorrent nature of shirk: “O my son! Join not in worship others with Allaah. Verily, joining others in worship with Allaah is a great Zulm (wrong) indeed” [Luqmaan 31:13 – interpretation of the meaning] He also does wrong to others around him, humans and other creatures, because he does not recognize the rights of those who have rights. When the Day of Resurrection comes, everyone whom he wronged, whether human or animal, will stand before him and will ask his Lord to settle the score between them. 6 – He exposes himself to the wrath and anger of Allaah in this world He is exposed to that because disasters and calamities will befall him, as a punishment in this world. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Do then those who devise evil plots feel secure that Allaah will not sink them into the earth, or that the torment will not seize them from directions they perceive not? Or that He may catch them in the midst of their going to and fro (in their jobs), so that there be no escape for them (from Allaah’s punishment)?” [al-Nahl 16:45-46] “And a disaster will not cease to strike those who disbelieved because of their (evil) deeds or it (i.e. the disaster) settles close to their homes, until the Promise of Allaah comes to pass. Certainly, Allaah breaks not His Promise” [al-Ra’d 13:31] “Or, did the people of the towns then feel secure against the coming of Our punishment in the forenoon while they were playing?” [al-A’raaf 7:98] This is the situation of everyone who turns away from the remembrance of Allaah. Allaah said, telling us of the punishments that befall the earlier disbelieving nations (interpretation of the meaning): “So We punished each (of them) for his sins, of them were some on whom We sent Haasib (a violent wind with shower of stones) [as on the people of Loot (Lot)], and of them were some who were overtaken by As‑Sayhah [torment — awful cry, (as Thamood or Shu‘ayb’s people)], and of them were some whom We caused the earth to swallow [as Qaaroon (Korah)], and of them were some whom We drowned [as the people of Nooh (Noah), or Fir‘awn (Pharaoh) and his people]. It was not Allaah Who wronged them, but they wronged themselves” [al-‘Ankaboot 29:40] And you see the disasters around you that have befallen people as a punishment and vengeance from Allaah. 7 – Disappointment and loss are decreed for him Because of his wrongdoing he will lose out on the greatest things that hearts and souls can enjoy, which is knowing Allaah and conversing with Him, and finding peace and contentment in Him. He will lose in this world because he will live a life of misery and confusion therein, and he will lose his own soul for the sake of which he has been striving, because he did not subjugate it to the purpose for which it was created. He will not be happy in this world, because his soul lives a miserable life and dies a miserable death, and it will be resurrected with the doomed. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And as for those whose Scale will be light, they are those who will lose their ownselves (by entering Hell)”[al-A’raaf 7:9] And he will lose his family, because he lives with them in a state of disbelief in Allaah, so they are the same as him in their misery and hard life, and their ultimate destiny will be the Fire. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “The losers are those who will lose themselves and their families on the Day of Resurrection”[al-Zumar 39:15, al-Shoora 42:45] On the Day of Resurrection they will be gathered into Hell, what an evil abode. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “(It will be said to the angels): ‘Assemble those who did wrong, together with their companions (from the devils) and what they used to worship, Instead of Allaah, and lead them on to the way of flaming Fire (Hell)’” [al-Saaffaat 37:22-23] He lives disbelieving in his Lord and denying His blessings Allaah created him from nothing, and bestowed all kinds of blessings upon him. How can he then worship someone other than Him, and take as a friend someone other than Him, and give thanks to someone other than Him? What denial can be greater or more abhorrent than this? 9 – He will be deprived of true life That is because the one who deserves a good life is the one who believes in his Lord and knows his purpose in life, who knows where he is going and is certain that he will be resurrected. So he acknowledges the rights of all those who have rights, and he does not deny any rights, or harm any other creature. He lives the life of the blessed and enjoys a good life in this world and in the Hereafter. Allaah says: “Whoever works righteousness — whether male or female — while he (or she) is a true believer (of Islamic Monotheism) verily, to him We will give a good life”[al-Nahl 16:97] “and pleasant dwellings in ‘Adn (Eden) Paradise; that is indeed the great success”[al-Saff 61:12] As for the one who lives a life akin to that of the animals, not knowing his Lord or knowing his aim in life or where he is headed, rather his aim is to eat, drink and sleep … what difference is there between him and the rest of the animals? Indeed, he is further astray. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And surely, We have created many of the jinn and mankind for Hell. They have hearts wherewith they understand not, and they have eyes wherewith they see not, and they have ears wherewith they hear not (the truth). They are like cattle, nay even more astray; those! They are the heedless ones” [al-A’raaf 7:179] “Or do you think that most of them hear or understand? They are only like cattle nay, they are even farther astray from the Path (i.e. even worse than cattle)”[al-Furqaan 25:44] 10 – He will be punished eternally The kaafir will move from one torment to another, in the sense that he will depart from this world – where he is exposed to shocks and calamities – to the Hereafter. In the first stage (of this transition) the angels of death will descend upon him, preceded by the angels of torment who will give him a taste of the punishment that he deserves. Allaah says: “And if you could see when the angels take away the souls of those who disbelieve (at death); they smite their faces and their backs…”[al-Anfaal 8:50] Then when his soul has come forth and he is placed in his grave, he is met with a more severe torment. Allaah says, speaking of the people of Pharaoh: “The Fire, they are exposed to it, morning and afternoon. And on the Day when the Hour will be established (it will be said to the angels): ‘Cause Fir‘awn’s (Pharaoh) people to enter the severest torment!’”[Ghaafir 40:46] Then the Day of Resurrection will come and all creatures will be resurrected and shown their deeds, and the kaafir will see that Allaah has listed all of his deeds in that book of which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And the Book (one’s Record) will be placed (in the right hand for a believer in the Oneness of Allaah, and in the left hand for a disbeliever in the Oneness of Allaah), and you will see the Mujrimoon (criminals, polytheists, sinners), fearful of that which is (recorded) therein. They will say: ‘Woe to us! What sort of Book is this that leaves neither a small thing nor a big thing, but has recorded it with numbers!’”[al-Kahf 18:49] Then the kaafir will wish that he were dust: “the Day when man will see that (the deeds) which his hands have sent forth, and the disbeliever will say: ‘Woe to me! Would that I were dust!’” [al-Naba’ 78:40 – interpretation of the meaning] Because of the horrors of that situation [on the Day of Resurrection], if a man possessed all that is on earth he would give it to ransom himself from the torment of that Day. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And those who did wrong (the polytheists and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah), if they had all that is in earth and therewith as much again, they verily, would offer it to ransom themselves therewith” [al-Zumar 39:47] “The Mujrim, (criminal, sinner, disbeliever) would desire to ransom himself from the punishment of that Day by his children. And his wife and his brother, And his kindred who sheltered him, And all that are in the earth, so that it might save him” [al-Ma’aarij 70:11-14] That abode is the abode of requital and not the abode of hope, so man must inevitably face the requital for his deeds: if they were good, then it will be good, and if they were bad, then it will be bad. The worst that the kaafir will encounter on the Day of Resurrection will be the torment of the Fire. Allaah has created different kinds of torment for its inhabitants so that they may taste the consequences of their deeds. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “This is the Hell which the Mujrimoon (polytheists, criminals, sinners) denied. They will go between it (Hell) and the fierce boiling water!” [al-Rahmaan 55:43-44] And He says, describing their drink and clothing (interpretation of the meaning): “then as for those who disbelieved, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling water will be poured down over their heads. With it will melt (or vanish away) what is within their bellies, as well as (their) skins. And for them are hooked rods of iron (to punish them)” [al-Hajj 22:19-21] |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| bhaloo |
| 04/24/04 at 09:10:09 |
| [slm] Some verses to ponder on: Allah has said, "And the Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of Allah,’ and the Christians say, ‘The Messiah is the son of Allah.’ This is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah’s curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth. They took their rabbis and their monks as lords besides Allah and [they also took as Lord] the Messiah, son of Mary. But they were commanded only to worship none but One God. Praise and Glory be to Him, [far above is He] from having the partners they associate with Him." Taubah 9:30-31) "Surely in disbelief are they who say that Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary." Maidah 5:17 and 72] "Surely, disbelievers are those who said, ‘Allah is the third of the three [in a Trinity]." Al-Maidah 5:73] "Those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved were cursed by the tongue ob David and Jesus, son of Mary." [al-Maidah 5:87] "Those who disbelieve among the People of the Book and the idolaters will abide in the Fire of Hell." [al-Bayyinah 98:6] |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| timbuktu |
| 04/24/04 at 10:58:43 |
| [slm] I shouldn't really be here. Very short on time, but I glanced through, and thought I would seek a little understanding. So far it has been a good discussion. If only we can keep it that way. We have to be aware of several things at the same time. Allah (swt) has told us the deen (acceptible to HIm is only Islam). There are AHadith which tell us that now the final Truth has been revealed, no one who hears of the last prophet [saw] and does not acept Islam will not fare well in the Hereafter. sis Nur has rightly pointed out if someone looks at us and says: If these are muslims, I don't want to be a muslim, we will have to answer for turning him away. Yet, it is for that individual to separate the deen from what some muslims (all right many muslims) practice. So, both have something to fear. You know, I believe that since everyone will only go to paradise due to Allah's Rehmah, what we are proud of as our belief or our good deeds may turn out to be not sufficient. and yet we hope to be forgiven. I pondered over it, and came to the conclusion that no matter what you do, there is a chance of it going wrong one way or the other when others are concerned. So should you stop dawah? NO, but start in the name of Allah, and seek his forgiveness a lot. bye for now. Hope I made sense |
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| nida |
| 04/24/04 at 16:28:09 |
| [quote author=Mona link=board=madrasa;num=1082506757;start=10#14 date=04/23/04 at 21:32:26] 5.quran. **we don't believe in the dead sea scrolls. **[/quote] what are these?!! can someone please explain?? :P |
| 04/24/04 at 16:29:11 |
| nida |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| Nadeem |
| 04/24/04 at 16:47:46 |
| [quote author=nida link=board=madrasa;num=1082506757;start=20#21 date=04/24/04 at 16:28:09] what are these?!! can someone please explain?? :P [/quote] Salam sis, :) [url=http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/Scroll/bible_scrolls_dead_sea.html] Dead Sea Scrolls[/url] [] [wlm] |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| Tesseract |
| 04/25/04 at 01:32:00 |
| Assalamu 'alaikum, [quote]2) What about ayahs that : a) address the non-believers and assure them that they will be judged according to their knowledge and deeds ?[/quote] Sister Ummwafi, can you please quote the exact verses you are talking about? JazakiAllah khair. Wassalam. |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| UmmWafi |
| 04/26/04 at 02:20:21 |
| [slm] brothers and sisters After some period of reflection and a lengthy discussion with a respected brother on the issue of Islamic discussions on a public forum, Inshaa Allah, this will be my last take on this thread. Re-reading the thread again, I was somehow reminded of the sahabahs and the scholars of the past. Such was their fear of making a mistake that they would tremble each and every time they were asked a question on hukm, hadith or anything pertaining to religious pronouncement. It is well-known that Imam Bukhari (may Allah Bless his soul) would never fail to take wudhu' and make nafilah each time he was to make an entry into his book. The nafilah was to seek Allah's help in preventing him from making any mistake. Subhanallah..such was the reverence and the respect that the eminent scholar has for the words of the beloved Prophet [saw]. It is also well-chronicled that the mutakallimun used to spend nights after nights just discussing on one issue alone. The Mu'tazillahs and the Ashaarites would spend months on end just discussing on the concept of Qadr. The length of the time they took to exhaustively discuss the issue was due to the importance they attached to being thorough in their thinking and to avoid from making rash conclusions. Such was the spirit of these scholars and such was the glorious tradition of learning in Islam. Bro Bulwark asked me to provide the specific ayahs which I summarily mentioned in an earlier post and to him I owe my gratitude for this timely check in my thinking process. Yes, I can provide the ayahs but I must ask myself to what purpose will this achieve ? Will I advance the goodness of Islam by doing this or will I do the reverse, Astarghfirullah. I am suddenly reminded of the Prophet's words "If you cannot speak of any good, then it is better to be silent." The burden of my speech suddenly weighs heavily on me. This thread is fraught with so many issues and side issues that its very easy to be confused about one or the other. Are we talking abt a person being good as in good per se ? Or are we talking about a person being good in terms of leading to Jannah ? Are we just talking about the equation of actions and rewards or are we in effect talking about the Justice of Allah's Actions ? Whatever knowledge we have, we must always remember it is like the atom of a small particular of dust compared to the vast and infinite Knowledge that is God. That being so, how can we ever attempt to pretend that we comprehend the intricacies and totality of that Mind ? The issue of what is good and what is not good in the eyes of Allah SWT is a deep theological issue. It necessarily entails the discussers to possess knowledge of dhatullah and sifaatullah, amongst other things. Even with knowledge of these, we must always bear in mind that we are always, at best, trying to second guess the truth for Truth or al-Haqq is only Allah alone. In my sojourn to other websites, those run by Muslims and non-Muslims alike, I have often observed how easy it was for both parties to cut and paste ayahs from the Holy Qur'aan to justify their stand, for or againts Islam. While the ayahs themselves are holy and true, without a proper instruction on the correct tafseer of these ayahs, what can it mean differs from sides to sides. If we read the many books written on the Prophet [saw], be it by a Muslim or a non-Muslim (except those expressly written to vilify him and Islaam), the one distinct idea that keeps running through these books is the fact that our beloved Prophet called people to Islam through his words and behaviour. Even when the pronouncement must be deemed harsh, his manner and style of delivering it robbed it of its harshness and sting. Who are we but his humble followers and as his followers, should we not emulate his manners for indeed he is the best example of a Muslim. Subhanallah. In case I stand accused of evading the original issue, let me just assure Bro Bulwark of my claims. In Surah al-Baqarah, ayah 62 and in Surah al-Maaidah, ayah 69, it says "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve". Still, what do these ayahs tell me ? Even if I do try and expouse on them, will it suffice to blight any doubts ? I think not. In fact, and this saddens me, I feel sure that these ayahs would only serve to fuel further conflicting discourses. I wish I am not held back by my conscience and discuss unrestrained about all the issues pertaining to Allah's Justice to the non-believers. About their position in Jannah and an-Nar, about Allah's Reward to them on dunya etc. Alhamdulillah, I regret not my silence for indeed I am reminded by the Prophet to be silent if I cannot speak good. Brothers and sisters, ikhtilaaf in Islaam is allowed but not discord. Did the Prophet not say that he hates those amongst us who cause strife amongst his ummah ? May we be protected against nearing such acts. In any matters of ikhtilaaf, the only way to prevent discord is to know our limits and to rely on hikmah. A tendency towards our nafs will only result in haste words which we would sadly regret later on. I am reminding myself of this constantly and hope that Allah SWT will help His dha'if servant from acceding to her nafs. [i]And if anyone can prove to me I am wrong.....I shall be more than pleased to go back to some other religion.[/i] Inshaa Allah, once we have been blessed with the ni'mah of Islaam, we would not turn our back against it. Indeed, for every Muslim, after each solah, do we not pray to Allah not to remove iman from our hearts after He has placed it there ? Being right or wrong about something pertaining to Islam is not equivalent to being a good or bad Muslim. It just means that we have to always strive to increase our knowledge, lillahi ta'aala. We are all brothers and sisters, together trying to make sense of our existence so that we can be the best 'abd to Allah SWT. It is our duty to enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil so that our ummah will be a strong and moralistic one, an example to others. Thank you sister nobody for bringing this topic up. Indeed it has provided much food for thought for everyone. If some of the older members remember, topics like these have been hashed and rehashed several times. We even had a discussion once on whether such-and-such famous philantrophist will go to heaven or hell. Alhamdulillah, it speaks well for our little community here that in the end of every such discussions, we agreed to differ and most importantly, we agreed that at the end of the day, since Heaven and Hell are part of Allah's Kingdom, we shall leave it to Him to best Administer them. I beg sincere forgiveness for having taken so much space and time in this little rambling of mine. It is out of my respect and love for each and everyone of my brothers and sisters that I pen this. May Allah SWT Bless each and every little good that we do and may He also Forgive each and every little mistakes we make, Amin. I end this with a hadith narrated by Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah will give shade, to seven, on the Day when there will be no shade but His. (These seven persons are) a just ruler, a youth who has been brought up in the worship of Allah (i.e. worships Allah sincerely from childhood), a man whose heart is attached to the mosques (i.e. to pray the compulsory prayers in the mosque in congregation), two persons who love each other only for Allah's sake and they meet and part in Allah's cause only, a man who refuses the call of a charming woman of noble birth for illicit intercourse with her and says: I am afraid of Allah, a man who gives charitable gifts so secretly that his left hand does not know what his right hand has given (i.e. nobody knows how much he has given in charity), and a person who remembers Allah in seclusion and his eyes are then flooded with tears." your sis-in-Islaam UmmWafi Wassalam |
| 04/26/04 at 02:30:41 |
| UmmWafi |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| Mossy |
| 04/26/04 at 03:33:49 |
| Here's another fatwa from Shaykh Munajjid on IslamQA: [quote] Question : Someone has asked me this question (she is about to become a muslimah). Her statement: 'A lot of others will never meet a Muslim in person. Will they be held responsible for their ignorance? What exactly does this mean: "After the revelation of the Quran who ever receives this message & does not abide by it is a non-believer"? i. Who is considered to have received the message? ii. Isn't it possible for people to have not received the message even though the Quran is in existence?' Answer : Praise be to Allaah. It is part of the justice of Allaah that He does not punish any people until He has first sent a warning to them and unless there is evidence against them. Allaah does not treat anybody unfairly. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “… And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).” [al-Israa’ 17:15]. In his tafseer (commentary) on this aayah, Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “These words, ‘…And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning)’ tell us of the justice of Allaah, may He be exalted, and that He does not punish anyone until after He has established evidence against him by sending a Messenger to him. This is like the aayat (interpretation of the meaning): ‘… Every time a group is cast therein [into Hell], its keeper will ask, “Did no warner come to you?” They will say, “Yes indeed; a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: ‘Allaah never sent down anything (of revelation), you are only in great error.’”’ [al-Mulk 67:8] and: ‘And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups, till, when they reach it, the gates thereof will be opened (suddenly like a prison at the arrival of its prisoners). And its keepers will say, “Did not the Messengers come to you from yourselves, - reciting to you the Verses of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of this Day of yours?” They will say: “Yes, but the Word of torment has been justified against the disbelievers!”’ [al-Zumar 39:71]…” A person who has never heard of Islam or the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and who has never heard the message in its correct and true form, will not be punished by Allaah if he dies in a state of kufr (disbelief). If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allaah will test him on the Day of Resurrection: if he obeys, he will enter Paradise and if he disobeys he will enter Hell. The evidence (daleel) for this is the hadeeth of al-Aswad ibn Saree’, who reported that the Prophet of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are four (who will protest) to Allaah on the Day of Resurrection: the deaf man who never heard anything, the insane man, the very old man, and the man who died during the fatrah (the interval between the time of ‘Eesaa (Jesus, upon whom be peace) and the time of Muhammad SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)). The deaf man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.’ The insane man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but the children ran after me and threw stones at me.’ The very old man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I did not understand anything.’ The man who died during the fatrah will say, ‘O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.’ He will accept their promises of obedience, then word will be sent to them to enter the Fire. [i]By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them[/i].” According to another report, he said: [i]“Whoever enters it, it will be cool and safe for him, and whoever does not enter it will be dragged to it.”[/i] (The hadeeth was reported by Imaam Ahmad and Ibn Hibbaan, and deemed saheeh by al-Albaani, Saheeh al-Jaami’, 881). Everyone who hears the message of Islam in a sound and correct form (and rejects it), will have evidence aginst him. Whoever dies without having heard the message, or having heard it in a distorted form, then his case is in the hands of Allaah. Allaah knows best about His creation, and He will never treat anyone unfairly. And Allaah is All-Seer of His slaves. [/quote] I think it's pretty clear to see that there will be those who are punished in hell and those that aren't - see [url=http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=27075&dgn=4]this fatwa[/url] for an indication of the least punishment (not nice). I really don't think this is an issue of major dispute - it is an issue of correct definition and preciseness, that's all. Generalisations (ie the kuffar will be tormented in the hellfire/all good people will recieve mercy) aren't really desireable when it comes to fiqhi/aqeedah matters. Precision is the key. But again, Mossy recommends the ghazali book :) |
| 04/26/04 at 03:35:44 |
| Mossy |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| jannah |
| 04/26/04 at 04:38:15 |
| [wlm] Thank you for that post UmmWafi. It's one of the most beautiful I have ever read on the board. One of our imam's told us about a Hadith on Fri, rough trans: "I am claiming a palace in the best parts of Jannah, for the one who leaves argumentation even though he/she has the Haqq (is right)." I keep thinking about this Hadith amazed at its beauty. What a lesson for us, always arguing with each other until it degrades into hurtful feelings and insults... maybe I should put it in our new Netiquette. |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| humble_muslim |
| 04/26/04 at 05:57:39 |
| AA Well I finally decided to jump in here. I think a lot of valid points have been made. First and foremost, we need to judge OURSELVES before judging anyone else. I mean what's more important to you, to work out whether you end up in heaven or hell or whether someone else ends up there? We all know how we stand with Allah SWT, we know our own weaknesses, sins, etc ... there's more than enough there for it to occupy our whole lives! "Good" is a kind of subjective term. But we have to keep the Quran in mind at all times. And according to the Quran, the worst "dhulm" -which roughly translated means oppression - any human can do is shirk. S what should our attitude be to non-muslims? Give them dawah, give them the message of Tawheed ... and leave the rest to Allah SWT. He alone knows thier end. And as pointed out earlier in this thread, your behaviour itself is dawah. |
| NS |
| Re: A Discussion for All |
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| Nadeem |
| 04/26/04 at 06:01:04 |
| [slm] [quote author=UmmWafi link=board=madrasa;num=1082506757;start=20#24 date=04/26/04 at 02:20:21] Being right or wrong about something pertaining to Islam is not equivalent to being a good or bad Muslim. It just means that we have to always strive to increase our knowledge, lillahi ta'aala. We are all brothers and sisters, together trying to make sense of our existence so that we can be the best 'abd to Allah SWT.[/quote] Ameen, sister, ameen. That was a very deep and well thought out post, mashallah. 8) The part of your post about both sides being able to copy and paste the Quran to prop up their side of the argument, is so true, and something I have also seen on many a website. This is evident not just between Muslims and non-Muslims, but even within the different sects of the Ummah itself. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us, and reminding of us, that in our quest for the absolute right and wrong, there are no guarantees. We should be open to all people, be able to freely disagree on issues, and then "agree to disagree" (just as the Sahaba did). We should also be prepared to accept that our personal view may not be right, and be willing to adapt if another view makes more sense. Too often we get stuck on issues purely for the principle of proving we are right. Jazakallah khair [wlm] |
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