A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| Nadeem |
| 04/24/04 at 18:22:26 |
| [slm] Alhamdulilliah, we have many great scholars in Islam who speak and write on a whole range of issues, mashallah. :) I have noticed that almost all of these seem to be men. Does anyone know of any female scholars or speakers? If not, is there some reason why? ??? Jazakallah khair [wlm] |
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| tripplea |
| 04/24/04 at 18:50:19 |
| I've heard that one of the things related to the fall of the Caliphate was the decline of female scholars. Yes, there are some, but I've forgotten most of them. here's one: Ameena Jandali. |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| jannah |
| 04/25/04 at 03:28:44 |
| [wlm] Are you talking about currently or in olden times? Cause there are a few in modern times as well as many in the past. As for why there are not more today.. good discussion topic :) |
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| tripplea |
| 04/25/04 at 07:41:53 |
| [slm] It's the tragedy of the last few hundred years, when the Islamic world began to get useless, and Muslim women were turned into property. |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| Nadeem |
| 04/25/04 at 08:20:55 |
| [slm] :) I'm aware that there have been several prominent female scholars or speakers in the past, especially during the time of the Prophet [saw], immediately after, and even during the "Golden Era" of the long gone Islamic empire. The reason why I asked this question is because there seems to be very few today. I did a search on Ameena Jandali, thanks tripplea :), but was unable to find any articles or talks by her (found something about her being co-founder of a Bay Area organisation). I did come across another name while I was searching on Jandali : Dr Rasha al-Disuqi. I only heard a 1minute clip by her but she seemed to be a good speaker. The motive behind this question is I was thinking about the despair in Muslim lands, the frustration among Muslim peoples with current events, and the general weakness and apathy of the Ummah as a whole. One thing I thought of was, what an important role women played in educating about Islam, especially around time of Prophet [saw] and immediately after (Aisha (ra) is a famous example but I'm sure there were others). I didn't want to go against any teachings of Islam, which is why I asked if there was any Islamic reason why there were not many female scholars or speakers today. I can't think of any logical reason why this should be the case. ??? The thing that sparked it all off, was the discussion we were having about the lack of accomodating women in the masjids. If women can't be given proper space to pray in the masjid, then maybe this shows something about the role of women, or how they are perceived anyway, in today's Ummah as a whole. It is as if someone one day decided that the area of the study of Islam should be a preserve of the men of the Deen. Why should this be the case? Doesnt this lead to isolation of women and don't they then feel disenchanted with the whole "establishment". Human kind is made of men AND women. Fatwas are declared on a whole range of issues, many of them pertaining to women. Why is it that women are left out of this process? Do they get any consultation or are they permitted to engage in the interpretation of these rulings? If not, why? ??? Everyone is aware of the fact that men and women are different. They have different qualities and strengths. But I feel that if there were more female speakers and scholars this would engage women more in the Islamic establishment. Young girls and women may even feel encouraged by them. Young boys and, dare I say it, even men might learn something new. :o Women speakers might be able to give a different style and different perspective on issues from male speakers or scholars. We may then get a more rounded picture of things. I'm not saying that women should neglect their families, abandon their responsibilities, or anything like that. Scholarly pursuits or public speaking won't be suitable for everyone. And in any case, why would "neglecting your family" be a necessary outcome of this? We are always telling people that when Islam came, it gave status to women when they had none. When everywhere else in the world, women had no rights, Muslim women could own land, inherit property and so on. This was in the Prophet's [saw]time! In today's world couldnt we extend that to letting more female speakers and scholars emerge? If everyone was engaged in this process (men AND women) then wouldn't this strengthen Muslims as a whole. If the Ummah was strengthened wouldnt this be better for all of us? In fact wouldn't it be better for the whole world? In fact I'm not saying anything, I'm just sounding out, posing questions really. If what I'm saying sounds really silly then please feel free to tell me. And if I've offended anyone or said anything incorrect please forgive me. Jazakallah khair for listening (or is that reading? :P) [wlm] |
| 04/25/04 at 08:23:45 |
| Nadeem |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| Mossy |
| 04/25/04 at 16:11:59 |
| It's hard to be a scholar when you're married off at 16 and then can't leave the house. A female should only leave the house under the most dire of emergencies after all. It is strange how such astoundingly patriarchal interpretations of gender mixing in even a professional environment have changed over the years - heck, even Ibn Taymiyyah had a woman as one of his first teachers (Zainab bint Makki for hadith). Nowadays their is an increasing trend to bring up interpretations which indicate that women are a fitnah (without the accordant tag placed upon the male populace) and that "traditional" "Islamic" mandates indicate they should stay at home and being educated there is more than enough. Again strange given the equalisation of ability of male and female to contribute to society by dint of a move from the traditional masculine economy to a more service based economy independent of hardiness or muscularity. Of course, then theres the opinion that the female voice is effectively an awrah. That makes it kinda hard to give public speeches. Try and find a fatwa which indicates one can listen to a female recitation of the Qu'ran. Found one? It's decidedly difficult to attain a decent level of scholarship without reading ayat - but I suppose that the female ulema over the years learnt while carefully avoiding qiraat should their voices tempt the poor males. Don't most Islamic institutions have both male and female sections? Al azher, the darul ulooms etc? Anyone know what on earth happens to the females who graduate from these institutions? They obviously can't become imams - perhaps they do go into scholarship, but are just really, really bad speakers? |
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| tripplea |
| 04/25/04 at 21:23:00 |
| As far as I know, this is why women in Islam are suppposed to speak in a "rougher" tone when she's talking to men, so that her voice doesn't create fitnah. |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| jannah |
| 04/25/04 at 21:51:26 |
| [slm] wow my kind of discussion!!! let me just say nadeem and mossy you guys are awesome. the fact that you guys think about these things, let alone voice them gives me alot of hope for the future. after so many years, i firmly believe that change in the area of women in our ummah will not come from women. it will come from 'enlightened' scholars and men. they will be the one's to change and influence how most muslim men think and act, thus removing the major impediment to changing the status of women. the likes of sh. qaradawi, sh. mokhtar, sh. hamza, abdullah adhami, jamal badawi, omar faruq abdullah and other ordinary Muslim men will break the cultural malaise and patriarcal islam that hazes the vision of most of our ummah. (inshaAllah) why do i say this? because as was mentioned women are hardly ever given the platform for voicing their thoughts and concerns. even educated scholarly sisters. they are not given their rightful places in society. they have little power or influence. they are not encouraged to contribute to society and the welfare of muslims. they are not protected from abuse. they are not encouraged to be good Muslims. sure they are encouraged to be good daughters, wives and mothers, but good Muslims? really if we think about it.. there are hundreds of ways that people could encourage women to be good muslims. like ensuring accomodations and equal access to Mosques and Islamic learning. Developing programs and encouraging young girls to Islam. Muslim husbands encouraging their wive's education and propogation of Islam to other Muslim women. Muslim fathers encouraging their daughters to be scholars and visionaries. It's not done. It's not a priority. It's not important. The factors holding back Muslim women from Islam: *** Lack of education and 'enlightenment' about what their potential can be. (when was the last time you attended a class on the contribution of muslim women, muslim women scholars etc) *** Enforcement of 'Cultural Islam' by those in authority (i.e those places were "fatwas" are issued that women should not come to the mosques, should not attend halaqas of learning, should not leave the house, should not work, misusing certain hadith and quran out of context to maintain cultural status quo) *** Dunya-i/Non-Muslim/Colonial influence on women (out of frustration muslim women turn to the western model of fighting for equality which does not work and only serves to take them further from islam, like taking off their hijab in an attempt to achieve some women's rights, etc) *** Negative reinforcement by Muslim men and women (ask a mother or father what is most important for their daughter -- they will say to be married off well, not that their daughter be educated or a good Muslim. what is the most important quality men look for in marriage -- islamic character or education? hardly, what are young muslim girls thinking about -- their goals on improving themselves and the ummah? laughable..) I don't want anyone to think I'm blaming all Muslim men, Muslim women can be just as misplaced in their priority and following. This is a serious sickness in our ummah that manifests itself in symptoms like there being no female scholars or speakers, no place for women in the mosques, lack of Muslimahs following Islam. If we don't encourage Muslim women to their rightful potential, the full potential and rights given to us by Islam and the Prophet [saw] who came to give it to us, I am afraid that over time they will die and be like withered black plants -- no growth, no substance, no roots and worst of all no faith. |
| 04/25/04 at 21:56:26 |
| jannah |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| merimda |
| 04/25/04 at 22:49:19 |
| Salam, I remember Abdullah Hakim Quick saying at a recent conference in Toronto that in order to have healthy Muslim communities it is essential to have women (and youth) in leadership positions (in shura boards of masjids etc.) and they should not be limited to women's issues only.I think he touched upon an important point.. when women are finally in leadership positions we find they often only have authority in women's issues. I wonder if anyone knows in history if there has ever been any women khateebs for Juma prayers. Are there any scholars or interpretations that allow women to give the Juma khutbas? I'm also wondering if anyone is aware of any interpretations that allow men and women to pray side by side in congregation (not mixed.. but men on the left side and women on the right for ex.) And is it true that in all 4 mathhabs that in order to fulfill the minimum requirements for a Juma congregation (3 or 4 ppl) that a woman cannot fulfill that requirement? just curious. JAK, salam, meri |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| jannah |
| 04/25/04 at 23:21:01 |
| [wlm] Just wanted to add in case anyone understands wrongly. I don't want to reform "Islam" I want Muslims to reform so that they can go back to real Islam and be open enough to know that adopting hardline views (when there are other valid views) in this area is a detriment and not a benefit. BTW I just found this article again. I posted it in the Shahada.. very insightful so check it out inshaAllah [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=library;action=display;num=1082949722;start=0] WOMEN SCHOLARS OF ISLAM: They Must Bloom Again [/url] |
| 04/27/04 at 23:53:12 |
| jannah |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| Nadeem |
| 04/26/04 at 00:36:08 |
| [slm] Good article, jannah. :) [quote author=jannah link=board=lighthouse;num=1082845346;start=0#7 date=04/25/04 at 21:51:26] they are not encouraged to be good Muslims. sure they are encouraged to be good daughters, wives and mothers, but good Muslims? [/quote] Shortsightedness isn't it, if people think that being a good Muslim is NOT part of being a good daughter, wife and mother? :( Mothers have an enormous impact on their children. If their mothers are not confident in teaching them, or if a son gets the impression that women don't have a role in talking about serious Islamic issues, or a daughter is discouraged at the futility of trying to talk, or be taken seriously about Islamic issues, then what sort of young men and women are going to be the new voice of the Ummah? [wlm] |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| rkhan |
| 04/26/04 at 01:24:11 |
| [slm] I just read the article...very insightful MaashaAllaah. As someone once said, if they inverted the amount of time telling Muslim women abt their duties and telling Muslim men abt their rights...it would be a different ummaah... okay, nobody in their right minds would deny that we desperately need more Muslim women scholars... there are a few even today who are achieving tremendous success by the grace of Allaah swt...Dr Farhat Hashmi of the al HUda organization is one such... Just wondering...what do you think should be the scope of activities of a woman scholar...I mean what do you think a typical day-in-the-life of a woman scholar/speaker would be? |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| Marcie |
| 04/26/04 at 17:41:16 |
| [slm] I wanted to recommend a video that I found really enlightening masha'Allah. It is Seeking Knowledge: The Path to Paradise by Imam Maghraoui. It is vol. 4 in his series: In Pursuit of Peace and Happiness. I really learned a lot about the strength and the intellectual wisdom of the sahabiya. It really made me think about our potential, if we would get our priorities straight. I would definitely recommend it. :-* The only problem was that the tape sounded staticee most of the time. :( [wlm] Marcie |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| Nadeem |
| 04/28/04 at 05:10:13 |
| [slm] Another thought I had. Mashallah most of the brothers and sisters engaged in da'wah work are doing an excellent job, calling people to Islam. Alhamdullilah, many of the reverts/converts are women, despite the negative stereotyping of Muslim women being oppressed. Wouldn't there be a greater help for them (the da'wees) and in the long run all of us, if more people could see that women have a highly respected place within the Ummah in terms of scholarly and speaking postions? Please, I would encourage more of the brothers to put forward their views inshallah. :) [wlm] |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| Maliha |
| 04/28/04 at 08:30:56 |
| [slm] Reflection I am wondering why would you think the scope of a woman scholar be limited? Merimda, At Tabari one of the most esteemed Mufassireen/historian/scholar in the Tabi'uun period, had declared women *could* be even the Imam of the whole Khilafa! :o And that is inclusive of the different leadership roles within the community too. I was shocked when i read this quite recently too. the most oft forgotten example is Queen Bilquis (Queen of Sheba) who is mentioned very favorably in the Quran for her diplomacy, submission and beauty. Ibn Hazm Al Andalusi, who was reared by women when he was young, educated, and taught the basics of Quran, poetry, calligraphy, etc. was also very vocal about the rights of women and their rightful place in society. But in between these amazing scholars, there were some who taught some really negative things, due to the cultural domain i guess? One scholar in the 5th century even declared you *cant* feed your child, without asking for permission from your husband first!!! >:( in the 17th century or so, there was a fabricated hadith that gained sooooo much popularity it said something along the lines of don't educate your women, for they will be magicians??! This hadith took root in Afghanistan, pakistan, middle east...in yemen *today* if you educate your woman, it is considered *bad* for the reputation of the whole family. I am talking even about learning how to read Arabic or the Quran! In saudia there are many Ph.d women *without* jobs...especially the upper/upper middle class. So amazingly educated women, spend their days shopping, sleeping, watching TV..how pathetic is that? (this was told to us by one of my teachers who spent a lot of time there). It's pretty pathetic that roughly 50% of our population is being wasted away. We talked about the Masajid, even in the west, with all the interactions of men and women outside, yet we still get treated like pariahs when we enter some doors. I don't know why Muslim men can't get it thru' their heads, that women are not only an integral part of the Ummah, but they are the mothers of tommorows generation. If they are dumb, prohibited from being part of the society, those kids at a young age see/learn all there is to know about apathy, consumerism, disenchantment from the very laps that used to raise nations of amazing generations. *Nadeem you started it* :P [wlm] |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| Maliha |
| 04/28/04 at 08:57:24 |
| [slm] oh yeah..its not just men's fault...totally internalized in women too ::) we think our rightful place is the bedroom, with hushed voices, not to be seen/heard...etc. may Allah help us and guide us all (Amin). [wlm] |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| rkhan |
| 04/28/04 at 11:14:38 |
| [slm] [quote] Reflection I am wondering why would you think the scope of a woman scholar be limited? [/quote] yaa nooooor-al-ayni where didja read that? Did I mean "limited" anywhere?? Just asking what are the things you see a woman scholar actually *doing* in a day's work? And please don't answer "all the things a male scholar does". I'm looking for specifics...and yes, there's a reason why I'm asking this question. Anyone care to answer and I'll tell you guys why I was asking in the first place. [Uhibbaki fillaah :-*] [quote] In saudia there are many Ph.d women *without* jobs...especially the upper/upper middle class. So amazingly educated women, spend their days shopping, sleeping, watching TV..how pathetic is that? (this was told to us by one of my teachers who spent a lot of time there). [/quote] I live here too...from what i know of the place any woman with even a basic degree gets a job pronto...there are dozens of teachers, nurses, Qur'an teachers, doctors, professors in girls colleges, journalists -- all native. The ladies who are at home doing all the things you mentioned don't hv another option because they're usually NOT qualified. This is what I know from my own limited experience of the place. |
| 04/28/04 at 11:31:43 |
| rkhan |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| Maliha |
| 04/28/04 at 12:33:25 |
| [slm] Sorry reflection i am jaded ::) Uhibuki fillah too... i guess before discussing the role of a woman scholar (who i do see is the same as a male)..in the sense that she will teach, be active in the community, raise amazing little scholars, volunteer, publish and rock the world 8) (j/k on the last one)..but you get the idea. before discussing her role, where is she supposed to emerge from? We have *no* access to shuyukh, at conferences we are lucky to have a 30 minute session "dedicated" to sisters to ask about all the mundane things they are dying to ask "can i shape my eyebrows?" or "how do i meet a good brother?" maybe the random "is hijab really a must??!" I mean seriously..i get so annoyed that brothers are constantly surrounding the shaykh, and we are sitting on the periphery hoping to catch a word or two of advice "if" we are lucky. this is supposedly the west, where men are okay to integrate, talk, work with mini skirted high heeled women, but can't even sit in a room with a hijabified *sister* to talk about the condition of the community or ummah?! ::) astaghfirullah..i need to stop venting..but for real..it maybe the timing..but this conversation is hitting a sore spot :P [wlm] |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| Mossy |
| 04/28/04 at 13:26:20 |
| Al Azhar and most darul ulooms have facilities for female students, do they not? I'm just wondering how good they are - anybody know? |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 04/28/04 at 20:27:58 |
| [slm] Just out of curiosity, how many sisters here can honestly say that they are prohibited by men in their family (be they parents, spouses or whatever) from pursuing sacred ilm? I'm asking all sisters, but especially those who have replied in this thread (no pressure for y'all :)) To those who are not prevented from doing this, may I then ask: what are *you* doing to take advantage of your "liberation" from the kitchen/bedroom/house, and pursue Islamic knowledge? If the answer is "not much," then may I suggest that we make an addition to the list of "why we do not have many female scholars today?" Jazakum Allahu khairan. |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| tripplea |
| 04/28/04 at 21:04:21 |
| [slm] To tell the truth, I have never been so critical with Islam when came to the subject of women. I was actually quite shocked by the fact that the Quran tells women to OBEY their husbands and it even mentions the BEATING of disobediant women. I so haven't recieved a satisfactory explanations of this. I just hope that the authority that Islam gives to the husband isn't an ABSOLUTE one. ??? |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| rkhan |
| 04/29/04 at 00:36:36 |
| [slm] The reason I was asking about the range of activities of a female Muslim scholar, was that I'm someone who's actually trying to be one, inshaaAllaah [but am a million light years away]. Assuming that people don't think being a good Muslim mother, wife and a scholar/speaker are mutually exclusive, I can tell you on good authority that it's VERY VERY challenging. There's the constant fear of shortchanging one's familial responsibilities in favour of scholarship...or vice versa. Then, as a Muslim woman I would like to [i] know [/i] my Muslim scholar...not just [i] know of [/i] her through google or soundbites in the media. I want my Muslim female scholar to be there for me and for the community to tangibly benefit from her scholarship. The few Muslim female scholars that actually exist are somewhere out there...pontificating from the rarified air of conferences and busy proving a point to the world or to Muslim men. The result is that they're not in touch with a very willing target audience, the ones whose needs they ought to be addressing in the first place -- ordinary Muslim women. |
| 04/29/04 at 01:14:03 |
| rkhan |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| rkhan |
| 04/29/04 at 01:02:37 |
| [slm] [quote] I was actually quite shocked by the fact that the Quran tells women to OBEY their husbands [/quote] what is so shocking about that? the christian marriage vows say: "to love, honour and obey until death do us part"... Islaam believes in an equitable marriage relationship...a marriage in Islaam is not a sacrament that lasts unto death, but a sacred contract where the couple agrees to abide by each other according to the rules laid down by our CReator and if they have irreconciliable differences, to part ways, again according to the rules laid down by our cReator. [quote] it even mentions the BEATING of disobediant women [/quote] where did you read that? This is typical of taking a verse of the qur'aan out of context, in this case verse 4:34 and blowing it out of proportion. There are detailed articles that deal with this misconception. Here's one: Quranic Perspective on Wife beating and Abuse By: Fatimah Khaldoon Domestic violence represented by wife beating or abuse is rampant in this country and around the world. While the exact numbers on domestic violence incidents differ, because this is such an under-reported crime there are statistics on which most experts agree. 1. In 1984 the US Surgeon General declared domestic violence as this nation's number one health problem. (US Surgeon General) 2. A woman is beaten every 15 seconds by her partner; it happens at some time in 25-35 % of American homes; 4,000 women die from such abuse each year. (FBI) 3. Physical abuse by male social partners is the single most common source of injury among women ages 15 to 44, more common than auto accidents, muggings and rape by a stranger combined. (U.S. Surgeon General, 1989) 4. In USA, medical costs from domestic violence total at least $3-5 billion annually. At least another $100 million can be added to the cost to businesses in lost wages, sick leave and absenteeism. (Sylvia Porter, For Your Money's Worth) 5.Women of all cultures, races, occupations, income levels, and ages are battered - by husbands, boyfriends, lovers and partners. (Surgeon General Antonia Novello, as quoted in Domestic Violence: Battered Women, publication of the Reference Department of the Cambridge Public Library, Cambridge, MA) 6.Approximately one-third of the men counseled (for battering) at Emerge are professional men who are well respected in their jobs and their communities. these have included doctors, psychologists, lawyers, ministers, and business executives. (For Shelter and Beyond, Massachusetts Coalition of Battered Women Service Groups, Boston, MA 1990) Statistics as these should awaken all those in denial of the fact that wife beating and abuse is an endemic disease in all different cultures, religions and communities. It is as common in Western as it is in Eastern societies. Men in Western (and Eastern) societies do not abuse their wives because of scriptural teachings, but because of a natural instinct of domination and aggression. God, knowing this, has therefore decreed a perfect law to help men control their temper and to solve any problems before resorting to physical aggression. These statistics reflect the failure of modern societies in treating this perilous condition in men. Despite advances in modern psychology and improved understanding of behavioral patterns of men, civilized and uncivilized, a successful solution to this aggressive behavior has not been found by man. A solution has however been presented to the world in the Quran, the Final Testament, more than 1400 years ago, in verse 4:34. [4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme. At first glance this verse may appear as if promoting physical abuse of women. But when reading 4:34 carefully one realizes that it actually prohibits abuse and beating of women by using the best psychological approach. The advice to first talk and then avoid sexual contact, provides the necessary time and space for both parties to cool off, reason, examine the problem and reach a favorable agreement for both of them. Abuse of a wife will not happen if the man learns to follow the clear commandments of God in this verse and in the order decreed. Abuse will only happen when a man does not follow these commandments, and thus fails to cool off and reason with himself or with his wife. Sura 4, where we read 4:34, entitled "The Women," is one of the longest chapters in the Quran. It deals with many of the rights and responsibilities of women, rights that were first available to western women only a few decades ago, and some that still aren't. The theme of this Sura is to defend women's rights, and countering injustice and oppression of women. Thus, any interpretation of verses in Sura 4 must be in favor of the women, not the other way around. Unfortunately 4:34 is extremely abused by many of the so-called "Muslim" men in the world. While disregarding their own obligations and their own righteousness, these men only focus on the third step of handling this difficult condition as described in 4:34, skip the first two necessary steps and give themselves the excuse to beat their wives. They find support for their misguided and biased views, and for treating their spouses unjustly, in the fabrications of the so called Hadith and Sunna. They thus misrepresent the true Islam (Submission), and divert people from this perfect and just religion for all. We have to remember that the right given to the man in 4:34, can only be claimed when you have a situation with a righteous man on one hand dealing with a situation in which his wife repeatedly commits "Neshooz" which is an unrighteous, wicked and rebellious act. Abusing this law and the attempt to apply it to regular daily marital disagreements is not warranted by the strong and selective wording of the verse. Furthermore, for a man to demand or claim this right, he must first give that woman all the rights God has given her and follow all aspects of the commandment without skipping any part of it. God clearly says in the Quran that He has decreed for the men and the women rights and obligations equitably (2:228). In reality, a believing husband would most probably NEVER come to the stage where he would actually lay a hand on his wife. He would be much too careful to examine his own motives first, as a God fearing man, before exercising this right. As we see in the verse immediately following 4:34, when the marriage reaches this stage it's on it's way to end, as the very next words in the Quran reads; "If a couple fears separation…" Most women in the world today do not enjoy the protection verse 4:34 grants them. Instead they are unjustly abused, verbally and physically, by unrighteous men in unrighteous ways, and get beaten up for the most trivial of reasons, or for no reason at all. According to 4:34 even if the husband has a good reason, he is not allowed to lay a hand on his wife until he has passed all the previous steps. The woman's responsibility in a marriage starts the day she chooses a husband. If she wants to enjoy her God given rights, she must obey her God given commands, and choose a believing husband. Thus, she can expect from him to treat her in accordance with God's decree, and not transgress against her. She can expect from a believing husband that he will heed any reminder she gives him, if he forgets. If she chooses to disregard God's commands, she has to know that there will be consequences. If women expect the men's deeds to have consequences, they should expect the same for themselves. These consequences are however well controlled to protect the women from the outrage of the angry husbands as we can find in God's law for the believers in 4:34. We also learn that one of the traits of the righteous is that they suppress anger. [3:134] "…They are suppressors of anger, and pardoners of the people. GOD loves the charitable." The nature and essence of a healthy relationship between a husband and wife is beautifully expressed in the following verse from the Quran: [ 30:21] Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think. [3:195 ]"Their Lord responded to them: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you MALE OR FEMALE, YOU ARE EQUAL TO ONE ANOTHER........." When facing difficult times, even if the man dislikes his wife, God has decreed; [4:19] O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit what the women leave behind, against their will. You shall not force them to give up anything you had given them, unless they commit a proven adultery. You shall treat them nicely. If you dislike them, you may dislike something wherein GOD has placed a lot of good. And when divorce happens, the full respect to the wife is urged, [2:229] Divorce may be retracted twice. The divorced woman shall be allowed to live in the same home amicably, or leave it amicably. It is not lawful for the husband to take back anything he had given her. However, the couple may fear that they may transgress GOD's law. If there is fear that they may transgress GOD's law, they commit no error if the wife willingly gives back whatever she chooses. These are GOD's laws; do not transgress them. Those who transgress GOD's laws are the unjust. In conclusion; A BELIEVING wife and a BELIEVING husband will NEVER get to the point where beating of the wife enters the picture. A BELIEVING couple will consult one another and agree on the best way to solve their differences as verse 4:34 and the whole scripture recommends. We have to know that we are not in this world to protect unrighteous behavior. We are in this world to be given a last chance to make the right choice and submit to God alone. Making the wrong choices will have consequences for all of us, both in this world and in the eternal Hereafter, for women and men equally. God is the Most Just, the Most Merciful. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Resources for Abused wives : Where to Turn for Help: National Hotline, in the USA: National Domestic Violence Hotline: 1-800-799-SAFE TDD for the Hearing Impaired: 1-800-787-3224 Some WWW Resources Family Violence Prevention Fund SafetyNet: domestic violence information and resources. Blain Nelson's Abuse Pages: a domestic violence resource page put together by a recovering abusive husband. Domestic violence information from the Sanford ME Police Department. Includes a partial list of hotlines in the United States. Facts on domestic violence from the Open Door |
| 04/29/04 at 01:07:25 |
| rkhan |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
|---|
| Nadeem |
| 04/29/04 at 01:12:57 |
| [slm] A Saudi woman's thoughts: http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=43615&d=23&m=4&y=2004 [wlm] |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
|---|
| Maliha |
| 04/29/04 at 09:08:09 |
| [slm] Abu Hamza, you are missing the point. The women on this board are amongst the smallest percentage of the women in the Ummah, most of us are educated, have access to opportunities, and are either married to or in really understanding awesome families, have access to the internet...etc Do you know how many Muslim women are completely illiterate in the Ummah? Do you know how many barely know the fundamentals of our deen? I know in my society, the fact that I continued on with education (and that was high school at the time) was a reason by itself to put me in a completely different pedestal than the rest of the girls who could hardly continue from elementary (primary school). These women raise their kids with hopes that they will get secular education, be a doctor, lawyer, engineer etc. To be a scholar is like taking million steps back ward into eternity. My ranting was really not geared towards the men only per se..but perhaps the whole mindset of the Ummah in general. Islamic scholarship is not as prized as it used to be....and those who actually have the intention and are trying to struggle through the deserts of intellectual pursuits, hardly find any *strong* *muslim* women who are accessible, knowledgable, and influential enuff to inspire/move them. yeah, its basically a multi faceted problem...that can be looked at, at all angles...half the reason that Muslim women are not educated in the deen, are perhaps the same reasons the men aren't....secularization of our minds and hearts. [wlm] |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
|---|
| al-ajnabia |
| 04/29/04 at 10:43:45 |
| [slm] It's wondeful sr. nur that you got to study in such a place, when I began to study arabic it was my asperation to get a chance to study islam in arabic overseas, but the secular department tha tI studied arabic from did not have any sympathy for my goal and considered me an intruder in their department. Or worse,they used me as an opportunity to teach the "legitimate" students how to speak in a manner agrivating to concientious political/civic minded aram muslims so that they seem like wack jobs on national tv. Though I must say the joke is on them, I accomadated them by loweing my agrivation thresh hold especially for them, so they're liable just to end up polietly b-slapped and over talked in any serious discussion. But any way, there are many tricks some educators play on women to in the end make them unsuitable for shuch lofty persuits, its not just he women dont decide to go study these things, it is just that what is a highway for men is a back road beset with bandits for women. |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| timbuktu |
| 04/30/04 at 04:06:05 |
| [slm] :) first the website: [center]http://www.alhudapk.com/[/center] OK, now what I could get is that the question by sis Reflection is answered on the alhuda website, although it may take a little searching. People have asked this question from the beginning of her work. Clearly this life cannot be a relaxed one, more like that of a successful and busy professional. A blend can always be found between time for work and time for family. but a scholar can work at home :) Now a word of caution: Read "Talbees-s-Iblees" by ibn Jawzi. Although it is harshly critical of everyone, there is a lot of truth in it. Invariably some takabbur creeps in. So do not rely on scholarly pursuits alone, nor become proud of your ibadah, do both but read and understand the lives of the salaf-e-swaliheen. May Allah (swt) grant you all to become real scholars. |
| 04/30/04 at 05:26:41 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
|---|
| timbuktu |
| 04/30/04 at 05:30:42 |
| [slm] my posts in this thread weren't quite right. I have deleted my earlier post here, and modified the one above. I apologise to those who may have been uneasy with what I posted, and I hope those who did not notice anything, have not imbibed any wrong notions from it. Thanks |
| 04/30/04 at 05:32:23 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
|---|
| se7en |
| 05/06/04 at 04:48:46 |
as salaamu alaykum, abu_hamza why you dissin the sisters? we started a thread on amazing modern-day muslim women a while back.. you can check it out here: http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=sis;action=display;num=1072521962 wasalaamu alaykum :) |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 05/06/04 at 22:26:06 |
| [slm] I'm not dissing the sisters. I was trying to hint at an inherent flaw in our logic here. For some reason, whenever the topic of women comes up on this board everyone gets all emotional about the ill-treatment of women and rarely do we see objective analysis in identifying the root of the particular problem at hand. Let me explain. I have not missed the point Sr. Nur. Nobody with even an slight sense of awareness about what is going on in this world would argue the fact that women in many parts of the Muslim world are not given all of their Divinely ordained rights. They are often mistreated, abused, prevented from learning, and becoming involved in the propagation and establishment of this Deen. However, delving into the mistreatment of women is not the topic of discussion here (however important it may be to discuss, and I'm not one to belittle its importance). The topic of discussion here, in this thread, is why there are fewer female speakers and/or scholars in the Muslim world today. Again, the topic is *not* whether or not (or to what extent) the Muslim women are oppressed or mistreated. The argument that is being made by many of you is this: The reason why there are fewer female speakers and/or scholars in the Muslim world today is precisely because Muslim women are prevented and discouraged from being all they can be. My response: It aint so. My proof: Your argument is simple: The reason why we don't have too many female speakers and/or scholars today is because Muslim women today are discouraged/deprived/prevented/barred/ from being all they can be (i.e. attaining an education, travelling to seek knowledge, etc.) I ask you, are there Muslim women in this world who do not face such hurdles from their families, communities or governments? Of course there are! Maybe not many, but there are at least a few. Especially in the West! Indeed many of the sisters on this messageboard, some of whom have written so passionately in this thread and other similar ones, fit that category. But sadly none of the sisters on here is doing a whole lot to seek that which so many are deprived from (the key in this statement is "a whole lot," I'm not saying nobody is doing anything). Believe me if you were indeed seriously advancing in your learning, you wouldn't be here on this messageboard a whole lot. Therefore, it follows that the real cause is not as you say. The cause of there not being all that many Muslim women speakers/scholar is not that Muslim women are discouraged/deprived/oppressed/prevented from seeking ilm and being all that they can be. I say the *real* cause behind there being a lack of female Muslim schlarship today is no different from the cause behind there being a lack of *male* Muslim scholarship today! That cause is just as Sr. Nur al-Layl said in her last paragraph: [quote]half the reason that Muslim women are not educated in the deen, are perhaps the same reasons the men aren't....secularization of our minds and hearts. [/quote] I would argue though that it is not half the reason, but *the* reason. It is because we, Muslim women and men, have lost that burning desire to be all we can be. To learn, to grow in our Deen, to make it a priority to become people of knowledge and raise a generation of ilm. It is simply not on our list of priorities. It may be a wish that we have, which we express every now and then (with intentions that only Allah knows best), but is it not a real priority. On our list of priorities, instead, is to watch the latest episode of The Apprentice, or the latest sequel of The Matrix or LOTR, or to listen to the latest album of Beyonce or Jason Timberlake. On our list of priorities is to get a degree from a university, get a job that pays 100k-plus, and find a spouse who is a millionaire/beautyqueen. On our list of priorities is to get in physical shape and to buy the latest shoes and designer clothes (be they hijabs, jilbabs, thoubs, kufiyyahs, or western designer clothing). And then there is the rest of us, whose priorities are a little different. On our list of priorities is to attend every conference in our area (whose speakers get 30 minutes to talk, and in which there is *no* student-teacher interaction). On our list of priorities is to buy the latest albums of (not Beyonce or DMX but) Sami Yusuf and Native Deen, and buy the latest designer hijabs, jilbabs, thoubs and kufiyyahs. On our list of priorities is to organize at least one da'wah project every month! On our list of priorities is to fill bookshelves after bookshelves with books that attract, not our attention, but the dust of our rooms and perhaps the misplaced praise of visitors towards us. Where is our priority to seriously seek ilm? [i]Seriously[/i] seek ilm, not sitting in the seats of our cars through lecture tapes and CDs, but in the manner that our muhaddithun seeked knowledge of hadith; in the manner in which our ulemaa seeked ilm; in the manner that contemporary ulamaa (the likes of Qaradawi, etc.) seeked ilm. Forget those giants, are we even comparable in our *efforts* (not knowledge, taqwa or wisdom) to students of knowledge such as Hamza Yusuf, Muhammad Al-Shareef, Yasir Qadhee, Zayd Shaker, Ingrid Mattson, Farhat Hashmi, etc. If not, what is it that prevents us? It is those priorities of ours that I've listed in the two paragraphs above. And I've intentionally divided the above two paragraphs the way I have. Many of us (especially on this board) fool ourselves that we are doing a lot for this Deen, but in reality we're not doing much. We spend most our time doing what I listed in the paragraph right before this one. But there is no consistent, focused, sincere, serious, committed, devoted effort for the sake of self-improvement and learning. Sure there's a lot of talk, very sophisticated at that, and a lot of listening to lectures and reading of articles, but not a whole lot of action. If there was, we would see its results. But so far, we have not. And hence the conception of this thread and others like it. This, my sisters and brothers, is the real cause why we don't have female scholars/speakers today. Because our priorities are different from those that those shaykhas and aalimahs had. Because we have become content with this world. And because everyone pushes away the responsibility to the other Mozlems. Instead of always putting the blame on the others - whether it be the evil west, or the evil men - lets put it on ourselves. If not because that's the root of the problem, then at least because that's the person who I have most influence over - myself. Neither the west, nor the men. Wallahu ta'ala a'lam. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh |
| 05/06/04 at 22:27:32 |
| Abu_Hamza |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
|---|
| Taalibatul_ilm |
| 05/07/04 at 01:02:27 |
| [slm] Masha' Allah tabaarak Allah, may Allah increase you in wisdom, brother. Very well put. |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| UmmWafi |
| 05/07/04 at 01:59:37 |
| [wlm] [quote] This, my sisters and brothers, is the real cause why we don't have female scholars/speakers today. Because our priorities are different from those that those shaykhas and aalimahs had. Because we have become content with this world. And because everyone pushes away the responsibility to the other Mozlems. Instead of always putting the blame on the others - whether it be the evil west, or the evil men - lets put it on ourselves. If not because that's the root of the problem, then at least because that's the person who I have most influence over - myself. Neither the west, nor the men.[/quote] Maashallah bro, you seemed to have thought carefully about this matter and several points which you put forward are certainly valid and pertinent to the condition and situation facing the ummah today, be it for the male or the female species. When I first posted a reply in this thread, it was done summarily, without much thought nor effort into careful reflections and certainly done without a healthy dose of reality check. Although it was badly done of me, my excuse is that at this point in time, too many things are happening in my life that my mind is severely taxed and requires much exertion to even divert its focus on anything else other than my immediate problems. That said, I am interested in some of the things you mentioned in your reply. You said that the core of the problem is the fact that our priorities are very much different from those of the shaykhas and 'aalimahs of yesteryears. I wonder...do we have a choice ? Do we really choose the priorities in our life or do the priorities choose us ? What if our preoccupation with seemingly dunya affairs springs not from our content with the world ? What if we seem preoccupied with dunya because worldly affairs keep rearing its head into our lives, wanted or unwanted ? True, the shaykhas and 'aalimas of yore too lived in this world but was it seriously the same world as we live in now ? Granted there are some Muslimah scholars of today who managed to achieve what they achieved because of their devotion to learning but not all of are privy to the luxury of devoting ourselves to studies. How much do we know of the way those shaykhas and 'aalimas lived ? How much do we know of their sacrifices and trials ? How much do we know of how they search for knowledge affected those nearest and dearest to them ? Can 10 of us afford to live the way Rabiatul Adawiyah lived, let alone the majority of us ? Pardon all these rhetorics brothers and sisters...I guess I write as a tired person. I write as someone who wishes to share the fact that although we may [i]set[/i] our priorities towards 'ilm, those still remain as plans. Eventually it is the Almighty Creator who Decides what is best for us. Maybe it is part of a Divine plan that we have shortages of Muslimah scholars Allahu 'alim....I don't know. There was a sister who is married with children. She realised after years of working that her soul is slowly withering away due to the deprivation of learning and 'ilm, which she realised were the nourishment for her ruh and qalb. After much thought and prayers, she made the decision to start devoting her life towards education, towards 'ilm. All because she wanted her children to inherit the legacy of Islaam, the legacy of love for 'ilm. She re-set all her priorities towards just that, towards acquiring knowledge. Like the good people before her, she made rihlah, hoping Allah SWT would Bless every step of her way in search of His Truth. Because she had devoted her intention towards learning, she started the painful journey on the quest for truth. Painful because in order to fulfill her niyyah she had to leave behind her parents, husband and children and ventured alone, bravely facing many challenges some of which hurt her tremendously. She struggled, not only with her Arabic and Theology, but with guarding her modesty and chastity, with saving herself from fitnah. Alhamdulillah, Allah SWT Blessed her with small ni'mah, understanding of her lessons. After two long years of sacrifices, she was offered a place in one of Iran's most prestigious khanaqah, under the tutelage of its eminent shaykh. Sadly, it was not to be. Allah SWT has Decreed otherwise. Dunya and all of its responsibilities and priorities claim her attention and effort. Illnesses, financial crisis and filial responsibilities, though not as favourable as the Persian scrolls, are still demands on her as a Muslimah. It was a choice of what she wanted and what she must do. It was Hobbesian for truly, it wasn't a choice at all. Brothers and sisters, Allah SWT is the Supreme Judge of what is best for us and the ummah. If there is a shortage of Muslimah scholars (or Muslim scholars in general), then the question to ask is, what is it that Allah SWT has Willed for us ? For He Blesses and Denies based on His Wisdom. I have learnt through the painful way that we can lose the most precious thing in our life in one split nano-second or live in fear of losing that precious thing every day of our lives. Maybe we should have more fear of losing scholars, maybe we should act on those fears, but how ? Priorities, niyyah, wants, desires alone sometimes...well sometimes they can be overidden by one thing. Reality. Manifesting the Divine Will. You are very right bro Abu Hamza. In the game of life, we cannot afford to blame others for what we have failed to achieve. Everything rests squarely on our shoulders. We just need to reflect on why things happen the way they do. Sometimes, try as we may, we cannot find the answer, but we will still be enlightened in some ways. As for the sister, she is content knowing that should Allah SWT Decree that she was never meant to be the scholar she has always yearned to be with all of her being, it is the best for her, her family and inshaa Allah, her ummah. Wassalam |
| 05/07/04 at 02:00:55 |
| UmmWafi |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
|---|
| Maliha |
| 05/07/04 at 07:43:29 |
| [slm] Abu Hamza, those points are well stated, but I do, from the bottom of my heart detest generalizations and the inherent assumptions and baggages they carry with them. I would hope you don't think you can paint broad brush strokes of what "kinds" of people do post on this message board, from the post or two a day one makes? Or what else, if anything, one strives for, with the sincerity of their heart, and painfulness of their struggles outside of the "virtual" realm? The illusion of self righteousness goes both ways; and had i not personally known some amazing people on this board, who do *real* things out there, I would have let your post rest...but it just irritates me, when someone assumes they know another through the two dimensional vagueness that colors our world today. Islam is also about balancing; your family has rights over you; your body has rights over you; your spouse has rights over you; your work; dependents; etc. To show one's true zeal of the deen, is not to abandon all your obligations and go isolate yourself in the realm of shuyukh...for that is the dream of many and Allah knows what's truly yearning in people's hearts..but a lot of times the obstacles placed on one's path that are real, unimagined boulders that can't just be "prioritized" away. The struggle of being a believer lies not in the bliss of sharing in the midst of amazing Quloob, but it may be in the struggle to navigate the realm of obligations, restrictions, Fitan, and still managing to somehow hold on, infusing the light and beauty of Islam amidst the chaos of everyday interactions...and struggling, praying, striving to simply be the best believer one can be, given the trials and tribulations we are put in. The fact is some people have the luxury to seek knowledge but are not ready, spiritually and mentally to do so. Others are striving to take advantage of every opportunity they have to increase the vibrancy of their Quloob, while fighting everyday to fulfil their very real obligations, to those that have Divinely ordained rights over them. i may be wrong, but the problems and obstacles of seeking Ilm in a traditional fashion are complex for each individual person; and run a lot deeper than your well articulated, but nontheless simplified, "mis-placed priorities" argument. I pray that Allah does open the gates of His Rahma, Hikma, and Guidance to all of us (Amin). [wlm] |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
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| jannah |
| 05/12/04 at 02:52:32 |
| [wlm] I agree with some of what you said Abu Hamza... but definitely not with a few of your major statements. First to say that Muslim women are not prevented/discouraged/barred from seeking Ilm is seriously not looking at the facts. They are and have been. I can give you countless examples from the world, different countries, down to my own local community. Men are too of course in various ways, but since we are talking about why there are not as many female speakers/scholars as there are male/were in the past, this is definitely a causal contributor to that reality. As to the judgements made as to the sisters on here, and what they are or aren't doing I'll just point to sister Nur's post to be read again. Being on the message board or not being on here isn't really a good indicator of whether a person is serious in seeking ilm or not... just like it's not a good indicator of whether a person is a good Muslim or not. Unless you consider the internet and posting on a board to be a a direct negative correlation to being a good Muslim/seeking ilm. And dissing people who go to Islamic conferences, who buy tapes to increase their knowledge, nasheed tapes to keep them in the right frame of mind, buy Islamic books, wear Islamic clothes, do dawah projects is NOT right. You do not know the intentions of those who do these things. You do not know what other things they do or their goals or dreams or hopes. I'll add that you do not know their benefit or the effect on the person. And for the VAST majority of Muslims these are ways for them to stay good Muslims and in their own ways *seek ilm*. They cannot all go to Syria. They do not all have classes of Ilm or a teacher like Qaradawi, Hamza Yusuf or Farhat Hashmi. They have familial obligations, they have so many things they are working against. And I would contend that not every Muslim is up to the level of becoming a scholar/speaker. To give everything up to just learn and teach the deen is a level that we may as Muslims all seek but not reach, just like trying to reach the level of the Shuhada or the Siddiqeen or Awliya. As Muslims we are all obligated to learn what is necessary for our deen. It is not obligated on all of us to reach a scholarly level of knowledge. However I have never heard anyone using that as an excuse not to seek knowledge. Many people who do not seek knowledge, have never been exposed to the idea of 'seeking knowledge' or are not practicing muslims in the beginning to even want to seek knowledge. I just don't see how can you say "there is no consistent, focused, sincere, serious, committed, devoted effort for the sake of self-improvement and learning"? There are alot of serious, sincere, focused, committed, devoted Muslims in the world. I have met a few. I'm sure you have too. Why paint the world with the same brush? Or even the people on here? No doubt there are many Muslims who are not serious or committed...but that is no reason to conclude that those who listen to speakers or read articles are not committed to any action. Don't we always say to give our brother 70 excuses, the benefit of a doubt. I do, and I believe they are doing their best unless they have said to me plainly "I do not think seeking Ilm is a priority." Sometimes a person can have the seriousness and devotion and yet cannot break the barriers of society, family, chains of dunya, nafs, obligations, life. I can tell you that every person that I have met that is on the path to seek 'Ilm has had to go through extreme hardships and have had to go through alot and fight alot to be where they are, especially the women. And to reach the level of scholar... because of present circumstances, lack of support and general problems of this day and age, the one's that have gone on to become scholars have sacrificed a lot. A lot meaning everything. Can I judge a Muslim woman for not sacrificing everything when it wasn't required of her? I just can't. And how CAN we expect it? And then make judgements on those that can't and don't? That is why we need to change the way we think and the way things are in our societies, to make it easier for people and even sisters to choose the path of 'Ilm. To give them encouragement and support, morally, physically, socially, even financially. To encourage each other Islamically. Once we remove the barriers and get back to that level, we'll see the change come about naturally. |
| 05/12/04 at 03:00:15 |
| jannah |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
|---|
| humble_muslim |
| 05/14/04 at 15:57:13 |
| AA First of all, Abu Hamza, let me start by saying that you are one of the brothers I most respect on this board. Whenever you post something, I know it will be worth reading. And a LOT of the points you have made are no doubt valid - especially about wasting time with TV. If I remember rightly, you posted a rant a few years back saying something like "Why, if we are trying to promote Islam and dawah on this forum, do we talk about Sienfeld?". But I think you need to look at this from different people's points of view. Let me give you a hypothetical - or maybe not so hypothetical - scenario concerning yourself. 15 years down the road, you are married to Sister se7en, and you have say six kids. You find yourself working your butt off, not going after the dunya, but just trying to fulfiil all your Islamic duties. You need to find a house for your large family. Since you avoid riba, you take out an Islamic mortgage, which costs a little more than a conventional mortgage, and for which you need a bigger down payment. You need a house big enough for your kids, and big enough to allow seperate area for women guests. With such a large family, you need a good sized and reliable car - maybe more than one, since you probably can't go to work and drop/pick up the kids from school at the same time. Talking about schools, sending 6 kids to an Islamic school will set you back at least $1500 a month (and maybe much more). You need to provide food for your family - halal meat is much more expensive than regular meat. Se7en is a stay at home mom - you both want to give the kids all the attention you can give. You are a very active member of the local mosque, which is in constant needs of funds. And of course you care dearly for the ummah suffering around the world, so you strech out your hands and are generous. And you have relatives in Pakistan who can't afford their diabetic medicines, so you lend them a hand as well. So let's say in the middle of all this, Se7en suddenly decided that she wants to go to Syria and study there for two years, leaving all the kids with you, with you footing all the expenses, including child mending expenses for the kids. And again, let's say you want to avoid riba and so won't just charge it to your credit card, but will try to pay everything with cash on hand. What would your reaction be? Bro, this is the reality (maybe not to such a degree for everyone) for a lot of families living here in the USA. I'm now facing a dilemma myself. My wife just had a baby and needs me around (we have three kids now). Muhammed Al Shareef is coming down here to NJ in a couple of weeks for a 3 day intensive course on tafsir of Surah Al Baqarah. I'd dearly love to go, but should I just dump all the kids with my wife? No offence meant, and apologies if anyone is offended bythis. |
| NS |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
|---|
| superFOB |
| 05/14/04 at 18:25:43 |
| [slm] [quote author=The humble muslim link=board=lighthouse;num=1082845346;start=30#34 date=05/14/04 at 15:57:13]But I think you need to look at this from different people's points of view. Let me give you a hypothetical - or maybe not so hypothetical - scenario concerning yourself. 15 years down the road, you are married to Sister se7en, and you have say six kids. You find yourself working your butt off, not going after the dunya, but just trying to fulfiil all your Islamic duties. You need to find a house for your large family. Since you avoid riba, you take out an Islamic mortgage, which costs a little more than a conventional mortgage, and for which you need a bigger down payment. You need a house big enough for your kids, and big enough to allow seperate area for women guests. With such a large family, you need a good sized and reliable car - maybe more than one, since you probably can't go to work and drop/pick up the kids from school at the same time. Talking about schools, sending 6 kids to an Islamic school will set you back at least $1500 a month (and maybe much more). You need to provide food for your family - halal meat is much more expensive than regular meat. Se7en is a stay at home mom - you both want to give the kids all the attention you can give. You are a very active member of the local mosque, which is in constant needs of funds. And of course you care dearly for the ummah suffering around the world, so you strech out your hands and are generous. And you have relatives in Pakistan who can't afford their diabetic medicines, so you lend them a hand as well. So let's say in the middle of all this, Se7en suddenly decided that she wants to go to Syria and study there for two years, leaving all the kids with you, with you footing all the expenses, including child mending expenses for the kids. And again, let's say you want to avoid riba and so won't just charge it to your credit card, but will try to pay everything with cash on hand. What would your reaction be? Bro, this is the reality (maybe not to such a degree for everyone) for a lot of families living here in the USA. I'm now facing a dilemma myself. My wife just had a baby and needs me around (we have three kids now). Muhammed Al Shareef is coming down here to NJ in a couple of weeks for a 3 day intensive course on tafsir of Surah Al Baqarah. I'd dearly love to go, but should I just dump all the kids with my wife? No offence meant, and apologies if anyone is offended bythis.[/quote] This is exactly the problem of the teeming millions of the ummah. They think "they" are providing for their family and have little tawakkal on Allah. Didn't the people of madinah left their livelihood, their date crops ready, to strive with little resources, facing the perils of the desert? And we are talking about forgoing an entire years worth of livelihood, with no other alternatives! Didn't the hypocrites, citing the same reasons, remained behind? If I remember correctly, it was the expedition against the romans, and the muslims were granted victory without even a battle taking place! And now we have to cite our weaknesses as excuses for not doing enough. That is the number one problem with the muslims, they just don't want to sacrifice what they love most. And that is exactly Allah is asking us for. Please don't get offended, I am in the same boat. I am still amazed at the sacrifices of the first muslims especially the ansar of madinah. They were another breed I guess. |
| 05/14/04 at 18:28:24 |
| superFOB |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
|---|
| Abu_Hamza |
| 05/14/04 at 23:28:46 |
| [slm] I apologize, but I cannot respond to everything that has been said by everyone. However, I do feel that I need to respond to a couple of things, mainly because they stem from mis-reading or mis-understanding what I wrote in my previous post (which is not necessarily a fault of the reader, but more likely a bad job on my part to explain my point-of-view). Insha Allah this will be my last point on this topic, because I don't want to belabor the point (not that the topic is not important). First, the easier one: [quote]First to say that Muslim women are not prevented/discouraged/barred from seeking Ilm is seriously not looking at the facts. They are and have been. I can give you countless examples from the world, different countries, down to my own local community.[/quote] Ukhti, I have a request for you. Can you please point out to me where I said that Muslim women are not prevented/discouraged/barred from seeking Ilm? Au contraire, this is what I said: [i]Nobody with even an slight sense of awareness about what is going oj in this world would argue the fact that women in many parts of the Muslim world are not given all of their Divinely ordained rights. They are often mistreated, abused, prevented from learning, and becoming involved in the propagation and establishment of this Deen. [/i] Second, I want to clarify that my post was written to make the following two points: 1. The fact that Muslim women are prevented from learning and attaining other rights given to them by Allah (awj) all over the Muslim world is not the only reason why we have few Muslim female scholars in this world today. 2. The real reason why we don't have a whole lot of female Muslim scholars today, as well as male Muslim scholars, is mainly because we lack focused, devoted individuals who are willing to make the pursuit of 'ilm their primary objective in life. Please note that my entire discourse went along with the title of this thread. I was talking about pursuing 'ilm, and becoming a scholar. I was not talking about doing da'wah work. I was not talking about improving one's imaan. I was not talking about raising a righteous Muslim family. And I was not talking about the million other things that Islam encourages us for. Not having a serious desire to attain 'ilm, to the point where one becomes a scholar, does not necessarily mean that I'm not a good Muslim, or that I'm blameworthy in the sight of Allah. Becoming an 'aalim is not Fard 'ayn, it's Fard kifaayah. Therefore, if I point out to you that we are not doing enough to seek 'ilm, I'm not condemning people and saying they're sinful and bad Muslims. I'm only saying that if scholarship is what we are aspiring for, then the necessary ingredients are not there for one to become a scholar. The person is not doing enough to become a scholar. S/he may still be one of the dearest beings on Earth in the Sight of Allah, but a serious student of ilm s/he is not! Please separate the two issues in your mind, and it'll help you understand what I'm saying. Finally, responding to my dear brother Humayoun (humble muslim). Akhi, your point is well taken. What you said goes along with some of what Jannah and Nur al Layl also said. However, my response to you is similar to what superFOB already said. If we are not willing to make those sacrifices, then we have nobody to blame but ourselves. Do we think the ulamaa of yesterday (and even today) did not have to make sacrifices for their pursuit of ilm? Why do you think, my brother, Allah and His Rasul have attached *so much* reward and praise for the seeker of ilm and an aalim (please refer to "Heirs of the Prophets" by Ibn Rajab al-Hanbali, and the first book of "Ihyaa' Ulum al-Din" by Imam Ghazali, etc.)? The path of success and felicity is always filled with thorns. A lot of you have talked about balance. And definitely Allah (awj) asked us to live a balanced life. This Deen is a Deen of middle course. Yet, a lot of times we fool ourselves to think that we are living a balanced life when in fact we are not, and we regard something else as being extreme - away from the balance - when it isn't. Consider a straight line with a dot and an 'x' in between the two ends: ------.---------x------------------ You see, many of us are at the spot where the dot lies on the line, while the balanced position is not where the dot lies but where the 'x' lies. When we are told to aspire for the 'x' spot, we look to it and say, "that is so faaar to the right! That's extreme!" It is indeed extreme from the point-of-view of the dot. But is the 'x' ultimately an extreme or the middle course? When we read the stories of our ulemaa and serious students of knowledge, we notice that some of them never married (al-Nawawi, Ibn Taimiyyah). We notice that some of them suffered great hardship in jails (Ahmad, Safar al-Hawali, Salman al-Awdah). When we read about the Sahabah, we read that some of them would go to fight in a battle the day after their marriage, and die as shuhadaa'. We notice that some of them would give up all of their wealth for the sake of Allah, leaving no material wealth at all for their families. When we look at these people, we admire them. But when it comes to emulating these actions, we tell ourselves that that's extreme. It is extreme, but extreme for *us.* Because we're at the dot, not at the 'x.' But in reality, that is the balanced course, the course of our ulamaa and our pious predecessors. Once again, if we are not - or cannot - make it an objective of our life to become scholars, it doesn't make us bad Muslims. We will still, insha Allah, be rewarded for struggling to live a righteous life. However, we should then hold our tongues from criticizing the lack of scholarship in the Ummah. We were told to make excuses for our brothers and sisters. Not for ourselves. Sadly, we often do the opposite! Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. P.S. [i]Wa maa ubarri'u nafsee![/i] By Allah, I do not absolve myself from the blame. The fact that I point out problems within the Ummah does not mean that I myself am free from those defects. Far from it. |
| 05/14/04 at 23:34:18 |
| Abu_Hamza |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
|---|
| UmmWafi |
| 05/17/04 at 02:21:27 |
[slm] [quote] And now we have to cite our weaknesses as excuses for not doing enough. That is the number one problem with the muslims, they just don't want to sacrifice what they love most. And that is exactly Allah is asking us for. [/quote] Hmm...I see that I have gravely erred. When my mother collapsed on Eidul Adha and was later diagnosed as having staged 3 cancer, I should do what Allah is asking of me and sacrificed her. Despite the fact that she subsequently had to undergo a high-risk surgery, I should just go back to my Institute and finish up my course because I should not be weak. Last week she had to be hospitalised because she had to take radioactive iodine which left her feeling weak and nauseous and unable to take care of herself but I should just go ahead and finish up my studies and not stay back and take care of her because it is my fardhu 'ain. If by me not sacrificing my ill mother to become a so-called scholar puts me on the same level as a hypocrite, so be it. May Allah SWT forgive me then. I am not offended brother, seriously. What I do feel is greatly disturbed that we should any of us have the temerity to make sweeping statements like that about people we don't know and whose lives we most probably are not privy to. It is all and well to talk abt the sacrifices of the people of yore but let us not forget that each of us make our own sacrifices to the best of our ability. If Allah SWT has promised not burden a soul may than what that soul can bear, why do we demand of others to bear more than what the Creator demand of him or her ? Inshaa Allah, this will be my last post on this matter too. I feel, like br Abu Hamza, that I do not wish to belabour a point. I cannot help but feel that we are sinking to the level of unfair accusations and that saddens me. My sincere apologies if I have caused any hurt by my replies and my du'ah that Allah SWT will Give strength and sabr to all the mujaahids, everywhere, in whatever capacity amin. Wassalam |
| Re: Female speakers and/or scholars |
|---|
| superFOB |
| 05/17/04 at 04:44:30 |
| [slm] We ALL go through phases of life, some painful, some unbearable, some with fleeting moments of joy. It's all part of the life cycle and NOBODY is immune from it. On hindsight, I wish I had phrased my response differently, but I relied on people filling in the blanks and giving me the benefit of the doubt. My post was a reply to humayoun directly, I would NOT use that argument with women nor would I phrase it like the way I did. I believe that a woman who has striven to learn deen for the sake of spreading it has accomplished above and beyond the call of duty. Men on the other hand, need a better excuse than looking after the wife and the children. Its THE standard excuse, not only in america, but ALL across the globe. We, the secularly educated "men" quote this hadith and that hadith to argue against any and every demand of deen but when it comes to the elaborate accounts of sacrifice on the part of sahabah (and the later generations) we have no excuse to hide behind. Granted, we are not capable of the sacrifices of the first generations, but at least there should be a burning desire to emulate them, and it would show right through. All of the religiously inclined "men" are satisfied that they are doing enough for the deen, and this complacency is a serious disease afflicting the "men" of this ummah. All of this might sound harsh to some ears, but there just can't be a meaningful discussion without the bitter truths being laid bare. I can go on and on but lets just leave it at that. |
| 05/17/04 at 04:46:47 |
| superFOB |
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