A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Dr.Shabbir Ahmed |
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| Stephanie |
| 04/28/04 at 03:06:23 |
| [slm] As a new convert, I have been gaining interest in becoming more familiar with hadeeth and the writings of some of the well known scholars such as Ghazali. Recently, I became aware of a writer named Dr.Shabbir Ahmed who has written several books. The one in question is called Criminals in Islam in which Bukhari, Muslim, and Ghazali (among others) are criticized. I have to say that many of the passages he quotes are extremely shocking and insulting, especially when pertaining to women and the character of our Prophet saw. These are some of the same quotations some non-muslims use to villify Islam. Now this man is a muslim, and as far as I can tell his intention is not to debase or discredit Islam in any way. I would like to know what you guys think of Ghazali and some of the more "uncomfortable" hadiths. I'm not trying to be controversial here, I am just extremely confused and saddened. A lot of my sadness has to do with current events in the world and my frustation with first, non-muslim aggressors, but secondly, with the actions of some muslims which only serve to propagate and justify the aggressors. I know I'm rambling here, but please any advice would be helpful. I feel really down. Struggling sis in Islam, [wlm] |
| Re: Dr.Shabbir Ahmed |
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| superFOB |
| 04/28/04 at 03:34:58 |
| [slm] [quote author=shareislam link=board=lighthouse;num=1083132383;start=0#0 date=04/28/04 at 03:06:23]As a new convert, I have been gaining interest in becoming more familiar with hadeeth and the writings of some of the well known scholars such as Ghazali. Recently, I became aware of a writer named Dr.Shabbir Ahmed who has written several books. The one in question is called Criminals in Islam in which Bukhari, Muslim, and Ghazali (among others) are criticized. I have to say that many of the passages he quotes are extremely shocking and insulting, especially when pertaining to women and the character of our Prophet saw. These are some of the same quotations some non-muslims use to villify Islam.[/quote] That dude is a charlatan! I would strongly strongly advise you to stay away from his material, until and unless you are well grounded in islamic sciences, or you have a shaykh who can answer your questions regarding this deviancy. Same goes for pseudo reform mongers and hadith rejectors. Btw, its difficult to get this kind of material, did someone lend that material to you? [quote author=shareislam link=board=lighthouse;num=1083132383;start=0#0 date=04/28/04 at 03:06:23]Now this man is a muslim, and as far as I can tell his intention is not to debase or discredit Islam in any way. I would like to know what you guys think of Ghazali and some of the more "uncomfortable" hadiths. I'm not trying to be controversial here, I am just extremely confused and saddened.[/quote] Imam Bukhari (RA), Imam Muslim (RA) (and other collectors of hadith), and hujjat-ul-islam Imam al-ghazali (RA) are the means through which Allah (SWT) has saved and transmitted his deen to us. If it were not for these people we would all be like the nations before us, the christians and the jews. This fake scholar and his ilk quote out of context and are truely misguided. Thats why it is SO very important to have a shaykh. |
| 04/28/04 at 03:36:32 |
| superFOB |
| Re: Dr.Shabbir Ahmed |
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| Stephanie |
| 04/28/04 at 18:45:05 |
| [slm] SuperFOB, this book is not hard to get, the man even has his own website. In fact, I first came across his work on another Islamic board. As far as I can tell, he isn't anti-hadith he just questions the some of the narrations and authenticity. He even uses hadith to boost some of his claims. The following is an excerpt from one of his articles, "A Selection of Ahdadith": Hazrat Aisha stressed that, “The character of Mohammad (SA) was nothing but the Qur’an.” Finally, the Holy Prophet himself is reported to have said, “Quotations will be presented to you in my name. You must check them with the Qur’an. Take those that are in agreement and discard those that are contradictory.” Can’t this simple rule save Muslims from the mental punishment and waste of time and energy they have been going through for centuries? Another quote: "The Holy Prophet said, “All goodness is linked to wisdom. One who has lost wisdom will not retain religion.” Therefore, any narrative that falls into one of the following categories cannot be considered authentic: 1. Any hadith that insults the Holy Prophet. 2. Any hadith that disrespects the holy companions because they were chosen by the best judge of people. 3. The Holy Messenger was the most revolutionary personality in history. He changed the future of mankind. Therefore any ahadith portraying him as a storyteller, soothsayer, a man preoccupied with women, excessive prayers, spending half his life on the prayer rug and the other half in bed, these traditions must be considered false. 4. Any narrative based upon outright ignorance and against common observation cannot be a saying of the Holy Prophet. For example, “No animal is born with deformities” or “Looking at a beautiful face sharpens the eye.” I am a Muslim. I believe the Qu'ran is the literal word of Allah. A Muslim can NEVER question the Truth of the Qu'ran. However, are the man-made hadith also afforded this status? I think not. I am no scholar. I am just beginning to learn.Certainly no one in their right mind can completely reject hadith given it's importance in our tradition, and the great wealth of knowledge it has given us about our Prophet Muhammed saw. Nonetheless, there are hadith that go against my better judgement and seem to contradict the fact that our beloved Rasul saw was the best of men, exhibiting the best of character. If a hadith does not correctly relay this fact, how am I to believe in it's accuracy? (the accuracy of the hadith, not that the Prophet was the best of men). As for Ghazali, I was able to get a hold of a copy of his famous Iya Alum al din. While not quite the misogynist that Ahmed makes him out to be, there are some disturbing and somewhat chauvnistic comments made about women, especially in the Book XII On the Ettiquettes of Marriage. I could provide quotes, but frankly I am sick of this now, and I am sure I have already angered a lot of people, which is not my intention. May Allah forgive me. However, I am quick to concede that the greater good Ghazali has done by helping to perpetuate the religion far outweighs a few passages that I might find offensive. Furthermore, I admit, I have not even begun to read his entire body of work. I guess I echo the sentiments of many Muslimah's when I say that I believe Islam has granted women the greatest status, more so than her Western counterparts. Yet it is so hard to defen` this position when one looks at the abhorrent and inferior way that many women are treated across the Muslim world. I cannot help but feel that scholars (at least a few) and yes, even some hadith help to perpetuate if not justify these behaviors. I agree with you superFOB, that I could definitely use the guidance of a shayk. Unfortunately, my community is rather small and extremely apathetic. The few leaders that we have are stretched very thin. This only adds to my agitation and confusion. This is why I often turn to the internet for info and we all know this can be very bad. I believe that one cannot fully believe something until he/she has explored and questioned that thing, and I may be playing the devil's advocate here. Again, I am open to constructive dialogue, yet I know Allah alone can grant me peace and serenity, amin. [wlm] :-) Your sister in Islam |
| 04/28/04 at 18:47:31 |
| Stephanie |
| Re: Dr.Shabbir Ahmed |
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| al-ajnabia |
| 04/28/04 at 19:38:01 |
| [slm] I think when dealing with works in translation it may be very difficult to come to any conclusive judgement about what any schollar of the past may have really meant. and even the most upright of translators may not capture the whole spirit of what a writer intended in his own language. Then there are editors and their agendas. and then there is our own ignorance of the good in some things that may still seem a little exotic to us, or we may have made associations about these things that are drawn from the partial understandings and loudly vocalized views of others. Even if we try very hard not to let these things effect us, they do effect us and we dont always know how much. I'm not saying that it is impossible to get understaning and guidance form translated works, it is just that they must always be read through a filter and only atached lightly to our own minds. i wish everyone had had the guidance I had growing up, but I'm glad most people didnt need it as bad. I wish more people could rely upon the quran of the heart in their own language, but I dont know if that will ever be possible. |
| Re: Dr.Shabbir Ahmed |
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| superFOB |
| 04/29/04 at 02:02:01 |
| [slm] [quote author=shareislam link=board=lighthouse;num=1083132383;start=0#2 date=04/28/04 at 18:45:05]this book is not hard to get, the man even has his own website. In fact, I first came across his work on another Islamic board. As far as I can tell, he isn't anti-hadith he just questions the some of the narrations and authenticity. He even uses hadith to boost some of his claims.[/quote] Its not a beaten path sister, someone has pointed you towards it, thats just what I meant. [quote author=shareislam link=board=lighthouse;num=1083132383;start=0#2 date=04/28/04 at 18:45:05]The following is an excerpt from one of his articles, "A Selection of Ahdadith": <snip> born with deformities” or “Looking at a beautiful face sharpens the eye.”[/quote] I have gone through some of the material, and its extremely distressing to put it mildly. This is NOT a real scholar's thought process. Rather, a cheap publicity stunt at the expense of the awliya of Allah. [quote author=shareislam link=board=lighthouse;num=1083132383;start=0#2 date=04/28/04 at 18:45:05]However, are the man-made hadith also afforded this status? I think not. I am no scholar. I am just beginning to learn.Certainly no one in their right mind can completely reject hadith given it's importance in our tradition, and the great wealth of knowledge it has given us about our Prophet Muhammed saw. Nonetheless, there are hadith that go against my better judgement and seem to contradict the fact that our beloved Rasul saw was the best of men, exhibiting the best of character. If a hadith does not correctly relay this fact, how am I to believe in it's accuracy? (the accuracy of the hadith, not that the Prophet was the best of men).[/quote] The collection of hadith is not a joke. Quran has been preserved and transmitted to us through the same people who collected, commented on, and made ijtihaad on the basis of the corpus of ahadith. Questioning the validity of the position of hadith is like questioning the integrity of Quran. Ahadith are NOT man made sister, beware of this well known deception. [quote author=shareislam link=board=lighthouse;num=1083132383;start=0#2 date=04/28/04 at 18:45:05]As for Ghazali, I was able to get a hold of a copy of his famous Iya Alum al din. While not quite the misogynist that Ahmed makes him out to be, there are some disturbing and somewhat chauvnistic comments made about women, especially in the Book XII On the Ettiquettes of Marriage. I could provide quotes, but frankly I am sick of this now, and I am sure I have already angered a lot of people, which is not my intention. May Allah forgive me. However, I am quick to concede that the greater good Ghazali has done by helping to perpetuate the religion far outweighs a few passages that I might find offensive. Furthermore, I admit, I have not even begun to read his entire body of work.[/quote] I am afraid you have taken a dose from the quack before you went to the genuine healer. Now what you need is to purge that propaganda, which won't be easy. [quote author=shareislam link=board=lighthouse;num=1083132383;start=0#2 date=04/28/04 at 18:45:05]I guess I echo the sentiments of many Muslimah's when I say that I believe Islam has granted women the greatest status, more so than her Western counterparts. Yet it is so hard to defend this position when one looks at the abhorrent and inferior way that many women are treated across the Muslim world. I cannot help but feel that scholars (at least a few) and yes, even some hadith help to perpetuate if not justify these behaviors.[/quote] Bad treatment of women is not limited to the muslim world, and its not the only malaise afflicting the ummah. It might come as a shock but muslim women are equally responsible for the state the ummah finds itself in. [quote author=shareislam link=board=lighthouse;num=1083132383;start=0#2 date=04/28/04 at 18:45:05]I agree with you superFOB, that I could definitely use the guidance of a shayk. Unfortunately, my community is rather small and extremely apathetic. The few leaders that we have are stretched very thin. This only adds to my agitation and confusion. This is why I often turn to the internet for info and we all know this can be very bad. I believe that one cannot fully believe something until he/she has explored and questioned that thing, and I may be playing the devil's advocate here. Again, I am open to constructive dialogue, yet I know Allah alone can grant me peace and serenity, amin.[/quote] If you don't spend time and make effort to learn the deen, false propaganda will reach your doorstep and you will have no shield against it. Can somebody do us a favor and post the link to the thread where abukhaled warned against playing the devil's advocate? It would be VERY beneficial to often recite dua #6 at http://www.jannah.org/quran/25quranduas.html |
| 04/29/04 at 02:46:46 |
| superFOB |
| Re: Dr.Shabbir Ahmed |
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| se7en |
| 04/29/04 at 03:25:32 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah, I wrote this post a while back, in response to a similar question that was brought up. I hope it serves as food for thought :) [color=black] People who reject the hadeeth sometimes say that they are not authentic in their transmission, because it's based on a "this person heard that person" type chain of narration.. this is actually a really inaccurate assumption about how the hadeeth have been transmitted. I've mentioned this in a couple other posts in detail, but there is actually a science known as [i]Ilm al Rijaal[/i] (lit. 'the science of men', biographical studies) in which individuals who were known to transmit hadeeth were rated in terms of their credibility, their scholarly ability (memory, acuity, level of knowledge, etc), and their moral uprightness. there are many ratings, the highest being [i]thiqatun thiqa[/i], in which they receive the highest marks in all the dimensions studied, to the worst of the worst from whom no hadeeth are accepted. I think we can think of this as similar to what's done in our court system in the US today - what makes a person a credible witness or an expert in the field? It has to do with their reputation, their work, and how they are known to the scholarly community, and depending on their reputation, their words carry a particular weight. The hadeeth were transmitted in circles of knowledge, so we are talking about a pool of scholars who were known to each other and who were familiar with each others work, teachings, scholarly ability and memory. Texts narrated by a person unknown to the scholarly community were assigned a lower level of authenticity, even if they was found to be valid. There were other checks of validity as well, such as whether all the 'links' in the chain match up chronologically and geographically. So we are not talking about random people claiming the prophet [saw] said or did something. There was actually a really rigorous system set up, that the narrators of hadeeth were all subject to. There's also a method of determining the authenticity of the text of the hadeeth itself. There's a check on the actual words of the text used - is there a foreign word included, or is it grammatically incorrect? Was it reported to have been said at a time that does not fit appropriately in the Seerah? Does it coincide with the prophet [saw] 's general teachings? This is literally a science, that many scholars devoted their lives to. (btw, if I remember correctly, if a hadeeth was found to be weak, even if it was sound in terms of its teachings, it was not used as a source of legislation, but only as a support for other more authentic texts of the Qur'an/hadeeth.. this totally illustrates how intelligently the hadeeth were taken into consideration by the ulama, and weighed and analyzed with a lot of wisdom and discernment.) Also I think we are dealing with a little bit of ethnocentrism here.. The Arabs, as well as all pre-modern people, relied heavily on oral tradition. In our minds the words 'oral tradition' conjure images of people around a fire telling myths and folk lore. In actuality, the Arabs were extremely sophisticated in terms of language and were considered masters of linguistics and poetry. Without depending upon writing systems, there was a development of prodigious memory skills. They memorized literally *thousands* of verses of poetry. Any student of knowledge was expected to memorize what was transmitted to them by the teacher; and before any teacher taught from a work or book, it was expected that they memorized it in its entirety. Writing did have its part in the scholarly tradition, but it was supplemental to the idea of [i]hifdh[/i] - memorization and preservation of the information in memory and in heart. Also contrary to popular belief, the hadeeth *were* actually written within a few years after the prophet [saw]'s death, and there are even some texts that indicate that they were written during the lifetime of the prophet [saw] (though this is an issue of scholarly contention). I think we are colored by the western academic measurement of authenticity - simply because something is written does not *necessitate* that it is authentic. but what we find in the hadith literature is that many texts were *both* written and memorized. another thing -- there are many hadeeth that are [i]mutawatir[/i] - narrations that have, at each level of the chain of transmission, such a huge number of narrators that it is statistically impossible for it to have been fabricated. This level of transmission is actually the same level of authenticity as the Qu'ran itself. It is considered [i]Qati'[/i] - definitive - and if anyone rejects them they are considered outside the bounds of Islam. To sum up: the sciences of hadeeth and hadeeth criticism are actually a lot more sophisticated, scientific and rigorous than many people assume. Usually people's rejection of the hadeeth stems from their dislike of the message they impart. We need to keep in mind that the validity or authenticity of something is *independent* of our personal feelings about it, and we shouldn't let our personal, cultural, or political perspectives become the lens by which we (mis)interpret religion. [/color] Also, just to respond to a few points you mentioned: [quote]Hazrat Aisha stressed that, “The character of Mohammad (SA) was nothing but the Qur’an.” Finally, the Holy Prophet himself is reported to have said, “Quotations will be presented to you in my name. You must check them with the Qur’an. Take those that are in agreement and discard those that are contradictory.” Can’t this simple rule save Muslims from the mental punishment and waste of time and energy they have been going through for centuries? [/quote] Hmm. I think what the author fails to note here is that the Qur'an often times sets down laws in general terms, but it is from the hadeeth that we understand *how* such legislation should be enacted. It makes sense, I think, that we look back to the generation of the Prophet [saw], and see how he, who was divinely guided, and those closest to him enacted the teachings of the Quran, to get a better understanding of how we should do so. That is why the hadeeth play a significant role in the Shari'ah, and as a body are a source of law. Of course, no one is arguing with the idea that every teaching and therefore every authentic hadeeth of the prophet Muhammad [saw] must be in concordance and harmony with the Qur'an; but there are many texts that *elucidate* and describe the specifics of matters related in the Qur'an. How then, are we as Muslims to determine their authenticity if we do not put the texts through rigorous analysis and criticism? If this is the 'mental punishment and waste of time and energy' the author is describing, I think that it is in fact very necessary, to paint an accurate picture of the sayings, actions, beliefs and worship of Muhammad [saw]. [quote] "The Holy Prophet said, “All goodness is linked to wisdom. One who has lost wisdom will not retain religion.” Therefore, any narrative that falls into one of the following categories cannot be considered authentic: [/quote] I find this to be extremely interesting logic. Basically what the author is saying is: For a hadeeth to be authentic, it must fit into *my* understanding of what wisdom is. Therefore, every hadeeth that describes a saying or behavior that *I* do not deem wise, is false and should be rejected, *regardless* of its authenticity. This is very interesting science :) Can you imagine if a scientist used this methodology? Instead of using evidence and drawing conclusions from the results of analysis, one uses their own personal feelings to dictate what is accurate and what is not? To put it in very polite terms, that's not very smart. [quote]Nonetheless, there are hadith that go against my better judgement and seem to contradict the fact that our beloved Rasul saw was the best of men, exhibiting the best of character. If a hadith does not correctly relay this fact, how am I to believe in it's accuracy? (the accuracy of the hadith, not that the Prophet was the best of men). [/quote] All I can say is this -- as Muslims, we firmly belive that Muhammad [saw] was divinely chosen, and that his words and actions were guided. We may come across a text, in the Quran or an authentic text of the prophet [saw], that we have difficulty understanding or accepting, but this struggle is what makes us Muslims, and is a natural part of our spiritual journey. In this struggle, we should seek to learn more about the context, the implications, and the full and complete meaning of the text. And we also must acknowledge the fact that we are limited in our faculties. We are shaped by our experiences and our memories, by our geographic location, by the generation and century in which we live, by our socio-economic situation, and by so many other factors that shape the way we think and feel. There may be wisdom in the text that we do not perceive or understand, as the Qur'an says, "you may hate a thing though in truth it is something good for you, and you may love a thing though it is something harmful for you". As Muslims we acknowledge that we are limited in our understanding, and we acknowledge that Allah is not constrained by time or space, and that there is so much wisdom in the things He prescribes and teaches us through his prophet [saw]. Please share with us your thoughts :) wasalaam, 7 |
| 04/29/04 at 04:07:52 |
| se7en |
| Re: Dr.Shabbir Ahmed |
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| sal |
| 04/29/04 at 17:02:35 |
| .[QUOTE] I'm not trying to be controversial here, I am just extremely confused and saddened. A lot of my sadness has to do with current events in the world and my frustation with first, non-muslim aggressors, but secondly, with the actions of some muslims which only serve to propagate and justify the aggressors. I know I'm rambling here, but please any advice would be helpful. I feel really down. [/QUOTE] Some time ago I have watched a very embarrassing debate over the IBNTAIMIYAH Books .I have not found any important thing in that ontest except it was a sort of attempt to dividing the muslems into groups This kind of debate trying to find mistakes in dead scholars is unfair and I think is dangerous specifically to the new Muslems These books are not words of ALLAH or The PROPHET any way so I think the best way to get rid of any confusion is to not to focus at what is written in different books by different authors We have the QURAN and we can defend through it ,other than this we are not respnsible for what is said by who because attacks againts ISLAM will never end till the last day of life . |
| 04/29/04 at 19:07:16 |
| sal |
| Re: Dr.Shabbir Ahmed |
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| humble_muslim |
| 04/29/04 at 18:27:14 |
| AA Read this : http://salam.muslimsonline.com/~islamawe/Hadith/Ulum/atit.html A very good intoduction to the science of hadith. |
| NS |
| Re: Dr.Shabbir Ahmed |
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| Stephanie |
| 05/01/04 at 01:54:09 |
| [slm] Jazakallah Khair brothers and sisters for your comments. They were helpful. Just a couple things I'd like to comment on. [quote]I am afraid you have taken a dose from the quack before you went to the genuine healer.[/quote] Very true SuperFOB and your point is well taken. Actually, my distress over some hadith have been with me for awhile. Ahmed was more of an excuse to open up some dialogue. As far as being exposed to propaganda, you have to remember brother I am a revert. I've been exposed to the propaganda against Islam my entire life. When I was first learning about Islam befor my reversion, I read all kinds of things. Dr. Ahmed pales in comparison to some of the disgusting vile things that are written about Islam and Muslims. As for playing the devil's advocate ( I didn't read the post you mentioned) in a way I would have never embraced Islam if I hadn't questioned and put myself in the other position when I was still a non-muslim. There are many things about Islam that people use to attack us and that may seem strange to non-muslims. They may include but are not limited to polygamy, hijab, Aisha's age, supposed wife beating, subujation of women, and gender roles. If I hadn't played the devil's advocate as a non-muslim I would have never realized the truth. It seems I just kept beating at the thing until I came to a point of true understanding and peace(through the grace of Allah). This is how I learn. Nevertheless, I appreciate your concern and thank you so much for the dua, I will recite it often. Se7en, thank you so much for your post. It was extremely informative, and just what I needed. When you wrote:"this struggle is what makes us Muslims, and is a natural part of our spiritual journey" I was literally moved to tears because this is exactly what I'm going through right now. Inshallah, this uncertainty will only make me a better Muslim. Thanks to everyone else who posted and I found the link the Humble Muslim provided to be most interesting. Hopefully, I will have time to further explore these issues in a few weeks as I am just gearing up for finals. :'( By the way, knowing where I'm at right now, does anyone suggest any particular books or authors? I look forward to being able to spend more time advancing my Islamic knowledge over the break. [wlm] :-) Your sister in Islam |
| Re: Dr.Shabbir Ahmed |
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| rkhan |
| 05/01/04 at 03:51:12 |
| [slm] sis I'm sure everyone will hv some excellent suggestions for you, here are some bks that are helping me IMMENSELY [if you haven't read them all already]: 1. A good translation of the Qur'aan [the volume by Saheeh International is what I'm reading these days] 2. A bk on the life of the Prophet [SAW] -- my personal fave is "The SEaled Nectar" by Sh Safee-ur-Rahmaan Mubaarakpuri . It's very detailed and inshaAllaah v. helpful in getting a general overview abt the Prophet [SAW's ] life and mission. 3. Tafseer [exegesis of the Qur'aan ] by Ibn Katheer....v. helpful in piecing together the puzzling bits...tells abt the actual context of revelation of chapters of the Qur'aan. 4. My personal fave "non scholarly" bk The Road to Makkah by M. Asad -- answers a lot of questions and provides a lot of general insight. Happy reading! :) |
| 05/01/04 at 04:32:36 |
| rkhan |
| Re: Dr.Shabbir Ahmed |
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| se7en |
| 05/06/04 at 03:50:54 |
as salaamu alaykum, just wanna clarify something in my post -- I mentioned that 'ilm al rijaal literally means 'the knowledge/ science of men' and that it refers to biographical studies.. I just want to mention that *many* of the narrators, transmitters and scholars of the hadeeth were women, starting from the very household of the prophet Muhammad [saw] with his wife Aisha. also it's interesting to note that despite their prominent role in the transmission of the hadeeth there has never been documentation of a woman fabricating a text of the prophet [saw], while there have been many men who have. Allahu a'lam wasalaamu alaykum :) |
| Re: Dr.Shabbir Ahmed |
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| timbuktu |
| 05/06/04 at 04:12:16 |
| [slm] sis Stephanie On the surface, some Hadeeth do confound us. Especially those that relate to sex, paticularly to the people of the sub-continent. I was embarassed and did not have a clue to answer when a Muslim on IoL started saying he does not believe these Hadeeth, and any other that offend his sense. Fortunately, an Arab muslimah (whose father was a learned man, and who has been studying the deen) replied in such a way that my doubts were removed. I wish I had bookmarked that post. However, I have found that if you ask the real learned people, they are able to show the validity and significance of a particular hadith, together with supporting evidence from the Quran and othe Hadeeth. So, getting a learned sheikh is important. I am beginning to see a lot of such people who insist that they will accept only those Hadeeth that appel to them. This is dangerous. The knowledge of the authenticity of narrators was completed a long time ago, and there is no way we can re-examine the lives of people that far back intime. |
| 05/06/04 at 05:32:31 |
| timbuktu |
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