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Going to the pub/bar?
MIT
05/09/04 at 10:12:41
as-salaamu alaikum

Dear all,
Have you ever been asked by work colleagues whether you'll be joining them at the pub/bar after work or during lunch? How do you respond? Do you feel pressured to go? Do you feel that there is 'team-bonding' going on there and you will miss out if you don't go?

I'm fortunate in that i work close to an area where there are lots of Muslim-owned restaurants, so my answer would be that i don't feel the pressure to go to the pub, because every few weeks i organise a lunch out with my colleagues at a halal restaurant (and inform them ahead of time that due to my religious practice, i can't sit at a table where alcohol is served.)

How do you deal with it? What practical advice would you give to a Muslim who faced this dilemma?

jazakallahu khair
NS
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
theOriginal
05/09/04 at 11:00:43
[slm]

Really really good question.

Last year when I was working in Geneva, my colleagues wanted to do a team building event on a wine-tasting day cruise, lol.  Well, naturally, I freaked out (inwardly).  I actually had a pretty rough time at work last year, don't know if anyone on the board remembers, but I remember complaining lol.  The clubbing, the partying, the bar scene.  Geneva is a pretty boring city, especially since everything dies at 6 pm (ALL shops excluding ONE pharmacy in the city, on a rotation basis, and ONE gas station), so this is like THE social scene.

The team building thing was pretty big, and I felt bad for not being there, but I would have probably felt worse for going.  

I dont know how to handle it.  When I was working at the law firm, I had to stay late one night, and the people on our team decided we should go to dinner.  Well...little did I know that dinner involved mingling at a bar FIRST.  Anyway, highly uncomfortable experience, and very understanding colleagues, so it wasn't so bad walking out that day.  haha

Wasalaam.
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
timbuktu
05/09/04 at 20:19:17
[slm]

I didn't like the English pub scene, for the smells and the smoke

I am not much of a socialising type anyway, so although I did miss out on team-building, I didn't care. I did get admonished by my manager for that, and he even wrote remarks on that in my report, but I just didn't care.

But I wouldn't advise any one to cultivate my attitude.

You could go with your colleagues, and stick to fruit (orange) juice, or plain soda. i.e. if you can stand the smoke.

Quite a few people are teetotellers. Why don't you form a alcohol-free group and build a team around it.
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
Mossy
05/10/04 at 08:38:04
Salam,

I've never really minded bars/pubs in the early evening - my main personal objection is to the smoke that can fill them later on, which is rather irritating.

When I was working, I used to pray during the work day, so it was pretty easy for me to make a link to my workmates from that to not going out until all hours (if I did I'd have missed prayers for a start).

At school/uni I also didn't mind popping down to the pub after a match for a celebratory pint. Of coke. I'd never stay long unless there was a danger of some of my teammates becoming paralytic, in which case I always endeavoured to look after them.

The need to get sloshed really does boggle the mind.

ws

Mossy
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
lala
05/10/04 at 09:56:08
[slm]
Interesting...well usually I dont go out with the coworkers to the bar but probably because I dont find it fun etc. The few times I have gone with them (usually when someone is leaving the job et et)..usually get a soda and hang out for a few. Nothing to long and drawn out. If the place has food I usually get a bite also of fries or something. Thank Goodness theres no smoking in nyc bars so the air is clean more or less. At least you dont leave smelling like smoke anymore. But if I do go its just for an hour or so nothign too long. Theres really no point in being at a bar unless youre going to drink liquor..hence no fun for us sober folks. ..plus I dont like hanging out with my coworkers too much either-:)

But like Mossy, I do worry about the drunkedness of the people that are left back. sigh..

dont get it either.
peace
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
superFOB
05/10/04 at 17:16:25
[slm]

It matters little what is our take on the issues regarding alcohol. As far as I know, one can not sit on a table where alcohol is being served (reference?). Does anyone sees the implications of this? Can a bar be anything less than a shared table? Granted that people are on different levels of eemaan and their mileage may vary, nonetheless, we should opine on such matters -- alcohol, usury, etc -- with extra care.

I think I do not have anything to add to what MIT and justone has already written.
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
Mossy
05/10/04 at 21:36:44
It's a hadith from Tirmidhi I think stating nobody who believes in Allah (swt) and the last day should sit at a table where wine is being served. I don't think that has an agreed upon conclusion drawn from it though (ie sitting at such a table is a sin etc), or know it's grading.

Nobody drinks alcohol (hopefully), so the issue is how to best convey this fact along with the idea that you don't like alcohol containing environments without causing offense.
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
UmmWafi
05/10/04 at 23:24:32
[slm]

I used to work in an environment where it is de rigeur to pop into the lounge (akin to the bar) once a month for "esprit de corp" activities.  To compound the matter, there would be karaoke (believe me, a roomful of off-key, tone deaf singers blasting their hearts out ain't fun).  Despite the fact I am a hijabi, my colleagues would be rather persuasive abt me joining them "to foster the right working environment".  I always gave them a wide-eyed look and blink as if surprised to say you know I am a Muslim and u still ask.  I would then smile and turn down the invitations. Things came to a head one day when at a staff meeting my Asst Director remarked on this and told me that I am not showing willingness to build a good working team. I politely told him that a good team is based on trust and respect.  There are many ways to build a team like attending an obtsacle course outing or something like that.  For me, if my team knows I am a Muslim and am forbidden to drink and yet still ask me to go to such places and then still judge me for it, then I question that team.  I have a constitutional right to work effectively and yet to exercise my freedom to practise my religion.  I would hope a good team would respect that.  He was taken aback but quiet.  I was never asked again.

Wassalam
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
MIT
05/11/04 at 05:25:03
as-salaamu alaikum

The hadith itself is graded as sahih and can be found in Irwa al-Ghaleel, and the text pretty much follows what superFOB quotes.

Another apect that someone mentioned to me was the issue of enjoining good/forbidding evil. Is it ok to be in such an environment where people are engaging in wrongdoing?
NS
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
lala
05/11/04 at 09:58:31
[slm]
I agree with you MIT.. although  I have gone on rare occasions...I probably shouldnt have at all...sigh. I do admit the pressures are there and the guilt!!!
I think if I didnt go I would have been fine and noone would have even bothered me...its the need to conform and fit and to just get along with our peers that push us to go....we just need to be strong and stand up for what we believe and just say NO thanks...

maybe its best if those who actually totally avoided these gatherings to post ...not sure i'm helping to answer the original question ;D

peace
05/11/04 at 10:00:25
lala
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
al-ajnabia
05/11/04 at 10:53:43
[slm]
I usually try to do whatever makes the situation more comfortable for all involved, and avoid making a sceene about being seated in the bar area of a restaurant or if anybody at the table has a drink when I'm with mixed company. It sometimes feels a little weird for me but I'm used to feeling a little weird, and sometimes if I suspect tha tone of the party tried to set up the situation to cause me to make a scene then I definatly refuse to object to being seated in the bar, and I just pretend like we are sitting anywhere else, though it is a little difficult to get up on those high stools with a long skirt on.  ::)
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
Mossy
05/11/04 at 12:23:15
MIT, do you know of any classification of this particular hadith by other than al-Albani? Or does anyone else?

If there is a clear and distinct indication that it is haram to be in such an environment, I doubt enjoining the good/forbidding the evil would override it. I find that cameras are very useful for discouraging future excess drinking. Is guilt tripping haram btw?

;)

ws

Mossy
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
se7en
05/11/04 at 13:20:36
as salaamu alaykum,

lala, I really admire your truthfulness in this thread.. I think a lot of times we tend to talk about the ideal, and don't mention the real practical struggles we all are going through..

I am in school but I always find it so funny how shocked people are when I tell them I don't drink.  It's like, the praying five times a day they can handle, even the no dating and wearing hijab is aiite too.. but not drinking, how can you NOT DRINK :o  hehe.  I think it's because it's such a huge part of the culture, epecially in college.

wasalaamu alaykum
05/11/04 at 13:24:17
se7en
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
jannah
05/11/04 at 16:47:08
wlm,

dude when i started working i couldn't BELIEVE how much people drink.. they have lunches with alcohol, dinners with alcohol, after-work get-togethers at bars, company dinners with drinks, conferences with alcohol... how they aren't all alcoholics i dunno... ;)

and it's expected that you attend some of these work parties and dinners as part of the department 'bonding' or whatever...

i think it's important to make it clear that you don't drink from the beginning and maybe try to get them to do other bonding type things like once we all went to a movie or an amusement park ... or going out to restaurants.. but overall i tried to avoid as much as i could and if i couldn't i'd make an appearance and then leave as soon as i could.
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
superFOB
05/12/04 at 01:42:03
[slm]

[quote author=Mossy link=board=madrasa;num=1084108362;start=10#11 date=05/11/04 at 12:23:15]MIT, do you know of any classification of this particular hadith by other than al-Albani? Or does anyone else?

If there is a clear and distinct indication that it is haram to be in such an environment, I doubt enjoining the good/forbidding the evil would override it. I find that cameras are very useful for discouraging future excess drinking. Is guilt tripping haram btw?

;)

ws

Mossy[/quote]
I don't think we need to be nitpicky here, its a hadith regardless of its classification and its message is full of wisdom. I have heard many many similar opinions from a spectrum of sources, salafi, non-salafi, even shi'ah.
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
tree
05/12/04 at 11:40:32
[slm]

do you think the British culture will ever get out of it's heavy-drinking mentality?  When my brother worked in switzerland he felt really uncomfortable going to the pub/bar, and so he told his colleagues that he didn't drink, etc.  so they made the effort to hang out more at peoples homes/restaurants, and even tried to make sure he had halal food to eat.  This would very rarely happen in the UK as people nearly have a heart attack when you tell them you don't drink...and have never drank alcohol  :o  i just don't know how to reply when they react like that!  
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
bhaloo
05/13/04 at 01:59:51
[slm]

[quote author=superFOB link=board=madrasa;num=1084108362;start=10#14 date=05/12/04 at 01:42:03][slm]

I don't think we need to be nitpicky here, its a hadith regardless of its classification and its message is full of wisdom. I have heard many many similar opinions from a spectrum of sources, salafi, non-salafi, even shi'ah.
[/quote]

Well said!  I don't know why anyone would question it or bring up the issue of Sheikh Albani? ???

Sheikh Qaradawi has addressed the issue in his book, The Lawful and the Prohibited, here is a snippet from there:


Avoiding Drinking Parties

In the same spirit, the Muslim is ordered to stay away from drinking parties or gatherings at which drinks are served. 'Umar narrated that he heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be on him) saying, "Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day must not sit at table at which khamr is consumed." (Reported by Ahmad; al-Tirmidhi also reports something similar to it.)
While it is the duty of a Muslim to eradicate the evil he sees, if he is unable to do so, he must stay away from it, leaving the place where people are engaged in such things.

It is reported that the rightly-guided Caliph 'Umar ibn 'Abdul'Aziz used to flog not only those who drank but those who sat with them as well, even if they were not themselves drinking. When once he was told of a group of people who were at a drinking party, he ordered that all of them be flogged. He was told that a person who was fasting was among them. "Begin with him," he said. "Have you not heard Allah's saying, 'And He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear the revelation of Allah rejected and mocked, you are not to sit with them until they turn to some other theme; for if you do so, you will be like them....' " (4:140)

Re: Going to the pub/bar?
Mossy
05/13/04 at 10:08:30
Salam,

Well, I don't personally accept Albani's hadith scholarship as valid for a number of reasons. Fair enough, just my view. Hence I was wondering if there was a classification from another source. No biggie.

As I said though, having a camera at hand for later on that night does wonders for the enjoining the good part ;)
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
bhaloo
05/14/04 at 01:17:21
[slm]

[quote author=Mossy link=board=madrasa;num=1084108362;start=10#17 date=05/13/04 at 10:08:30]Salam,

Well, I don't personally accept Albani's hadith scholarship as valid for a number of reasons. Fair enough, just my view. Hence I was wondering if there was a classification from another source. No biggie.
[/quote]

You might want to talk with students of his, instead of reading the slander spewed out by some ignorants that attacked him.  He was one of the top scholars in the last century.  A few years ago I had the opportunity to confront one person that wrote a book after the Sheikh died, attacking him.  He couldn't respond to me, and finally gave the typical answer that is so common of the particular group he follows, that being that his sheikh had some dream that Allah (SWT) explained everything to him about Sheikh Albani.   ::)  


Re: Going to the pub/bar?
jannah
05/14/04 at 02:37:49
[wlm]

bhaloo, there are people that disagree with shaikh albani. and validly disagree.. for instance he has one opinion that gold is haram for men AND women. this is not a majority view.
05/14/04 at 02:38:37
jannah
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
superFOB
05/14/04 at 06:46:30
[slm]

I don't think many among us have the requisites to comment on the late scholar. Although a scholar might be in a position to criticize another scholar based solely on the merits of his work (which is healthy), it is not our business to assume that responsibility. Tragically, this "condition" is endemic among practising muslims, not excluding myself. Lets get back to the original thread shall we.
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
Mossy
05/14/04 at 07:56:27
/sidenote

My personal opinion, as always, comes from criticisms of his work by scholars/individuals I respect the knowledge of, weighted by reading both his works and those of his students. I'm not that unfair/subjective (insh'Allah). We all choose our sources we trust for knowledge, right? No disrespect intended.

/end sidenote

Back on topic, I doubt the British culture of drinking will ever die out - this country is just too darn miserable most of the time and it's too much an ingrained trait. Mind you, we did manage to assimilate balti/curry into the national psyche..

University is where it's worst though - thankfully my neighbours are very considerate about not singing too much when drunk. Although they do say they love me and try to hug me. Hugs are good, smelly hugs are bad..
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
Abu_Hamza
05/14/04 at 21:40:30
[quote author=jannah link=board=madrasa;num=1084108362;start=10#19 date=05/14/04 at 02:37:49]bhaloo, there are people that disagree with shaikh albani. and validly disagree.. for instance he has one opinion that gold is haram for men AND women. this is not a majority view.[/quote]

Jannah, I think there's a difference between disagreeing with *a* fatwa of some Shaykh and outright denying the scholarship of a Shaykh to begin with.  What Mossy is saying is that he doesn't consider Albani to be a realiable authority in Hadith to begin with.  (Correct me if I'm wrong Mossy).
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
bhaloo
05/15/04 at 02:08:08
[slm]

Thank you Abu Hamza and SuperFOB, that's exactly the point I was making.  There is no place for Mossy's insulting comments about the sheikh on this board*  In fact it is part of the constitution.

[quote]
on May 13th, 2004, 11:37pm, jannah wrote:bhaloo, there are people that disagree with shaikh albani. and validly disagree.. for instance he has one opinion that gold is haram for men AND women. this is not a majority view.  
[/quote]

That is not correct.  As far as I know, the shiekh opposed CIRCULAR SHAPED gold jewlery for women.  Other shapes were permitted for women.  So let's be fair here.
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
jannah
05/15/04 at 03:44:59
[wlm]

arshad true.. that includes gold necklaces, bracelets and rings

the majority of scholars do not have this opinion.

The point is that there are scholars that are opposed to opinions of sh. albaani and not just in this issue... so let's leave it at that...there's no point in bashing him, and as was pointed out it, it is in our constitution that we avoid doing so.



Re: Going to the pub/bar?
Mossy
05/15/04 at 17:57:28
Hmm.. So what I said was against III.1?

If so I apologise for violating the constitution and ask that my post on May 13th, 2004, 3:08pm be removed.

Having said that, I will stand by what I said as I do not believe it constitutes gheebah (if that is what insult means). My initial request was simply to see if anybody else had any information on this hadith as I have found that al-Albani has graded many hadith contrary to the grading of many renowned hadith scholars - in some cases the majority.

As far as I can see, this is analogous to him taking positions on fatwa which differ from the majority view.

As I follow a broadly hanafi implementation of Islam, his scholarship in hadith is not valid with reference to this and within this, regardless of classifications that may make me go ?

Shrug, that's the last I'll say on the matter. Back to bars.
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
Angelic
05/15/04 at 21:04:49
well I think most of us seem to be of the same consensus that not joining our colleagues at the bar/restaurant for a drink seems to make us judged by our colleagues some way or another.

Even before becoming a muslim I was shy on the social side and I hated the bar social scene and I never drank alcohol.  But sometimes I feel a bit guilty if I don't join them when a colleague is leaving.    If I go for the farewehl dinner I certainly don't jolin them afterwards when they all seem to want to go bar hopping and get plastered.

All my life it's never made sense to me why one needs to drink to be popular.   If I did attend a gathering I always felt very uncomfortable, it's not much fun when the people you are with can't have a decent conversation with you and actually talk about something that matters.

I remember one day I asked for an orange juice but I'm pretty sure that's not what I got.

I have noticed on those occasions that the chatter only ever seems to revolve around their wild drinkiing stories.  Of course I can't contribute to the conversation, I do not have any wild drinking stories to tell so I end up sitting there very quiet.  I have no comment to make at all, and of course I notice the fact that they never ask me to join them for anything anymore.   I guess sometimes I feel hurt that people I spend time with 12 hours a day, people who I have helped and passed on my knowledge to everyday repay me through exclusion. But then I think about how superficial everyone is so why would I want to be included to become another gossip monger.

Of course my social life over the years is not much to talk about either but then my energy was spent soul searching.

I think that not drinking and joining the bar scene has been a trade off to my job prospects.  Despite an excellent work performance history I don't seem to have risen to a higher level in my company.   It seems that the social side in my company is the way one gets ahead.

But I think this is the way most companies are heading these days.

However, after 4 years of giving my all to my colleagues and company I resigned last week.

I certainly realise it's not worth the headache.  Maybe I'll end up in another place which might be another headache but then I can leave there too if it turns into a must.

I remember making the statement to my husband the other day that the human brain has advanced our world at an enormous scale but human behaviour doesn't seem to have evolved because we don't seem to learn from the mistakes of the past.

sorry just wanted to add my 2 cents worth

05/15/04 at 21:08:05
Angelic
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
al-ajnabia
05/16/04 at 07:57:29
[slm]
the college drinking sceen is a massad plot to interrogate and deminish the capacities of free thinking education seeking americans and others.
isyn
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
bhaloo
05/18/04 at 01:03:01
[slm]

[quote author=Mossy link=board=madrasa;num=1084108362;start=20#25 date=05/15/04 at 17:57:28]Having said that, I will stand by what I said as I do not believe it constitutes gheebah (if that is what insult means). My initial request was simply to see if anybody else had any information on this hadith as I have found that al-Albani has graded many hadith contrary to the grading of many renowned hadith scholars - in some cases the majority.

As far as I can see, this is analogous to him taking positions on fatwa which differ from the majority view.

[/quote]

Once again your attacking/slandering him.   Some responses to the attacks against the sheikh can be found here:
http://www.islaam.net/main/display.php?category=36

Just about every scholar out there has come under attack.  Once I came across a non-sunni website that attacked the great Imaam Abu Hanifah (i revisited it today and confirmed that its still up), and slandered him by saying that the other 3 great imaams were against him and attacked him, and his students were against him, and attacked his fatawas and gave references.  It was nuts.  I certainly don't believe that garbage, and don't have the time to go investigate it further and respond to their filth.

But the point is, this board is not a place to attack scholars.  We have certain rules on here for a reason.
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
Trustworthy
05/18/04 at 01:58:22
[slm]....

That's too easy Bro.  Just say "No".  My coworkers know it's forbidden for me to join them in a liquid lunch at the bar or after work.  I only go if there are female coworkers and there is halaal food, no alcohol.

And they know cause I tell them so.  Who cares if I'm missing out on drunk colleagues?  What am I missing?

Ma-assalaamah...
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
MIT
05/18/04 at 05:01:56
as-salaamu alaikum

jazakallahu khair all for your comments.

However, i haven't seen many people address the issue of how would you induce or persuade a Muslim to avoid the drinking scene?

I don't know if "just say no" would cut it with some of the Muslims i kn ow.
NS
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
Trustworthy
05/18/04 at 17:30:01
[slm]...

Ohhhh…help a Muslim avoid going to the bar….

Muslim going to the bar!!! WHA??!!! :o

How about?  “Bro?  You know it’s forbidden so why go?  Why try to change what Allah (SWT) has deemed good for you (which is avoiding alcohol, bar scenes, drunk people, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.)  First the bar, next the alcohol, then the night clubs, then who knows...no more Islam for you!!  It will be hard to come back, I know someone who knows a brother who is Muslim, knows Islam, but is in too much of “I want to be like you (westernized kafr).” attitude and ways that he still sways more towards the Kafir life then the Islamic way of life.  Those that know and still go, the punishment is more severe.  Don’t go.  Hang out with me and we’ll do it the halaal way.”

Seriously though…if he’s weak in that area…just help him by showing him your ways, the Islamic way of life.  He doesn’t need to go there.  You care about him too much to let him stray like that and if he doesn’t listen then you’ve done your duty.  Don’t give up on him though.

Allah (SWT) Bless and guide us all…Ameen.

Ma-asalaamah…..
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
al-ajnabia
05/18/04 at 17:30:25
[slm]
I've heard that physically dragging them out of the bars and beating them doesnt work either.  
has anyone else seen the twilight zone episode where they guy drank a parasite that grew whenever he drank until it was really huge?
people tend to drink a whole lot to block out unpleasant thoughts, maybe if you can help them with that, but it can get real messy.
Re: Going to the pub/bar?
bhaloo
05/18/04 at 20:18:22
[slm]

[quote author=MIT link=board=madrasa;num=1084108362;start=30#30 date=05/18/04 at 05:01:56]
I don't know if "just say no" would cut it with some of the Muslims i kn ow. [/quote]

I guess you could try to provide them with halaal alternatives that are fun.  Maybe a group of brothers getting together to play some basketball.  
NS


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