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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Islam... |
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| Maliha |
| 05/14/04 at 13:22:14 |
| [slm] I have been following the pub thread...and a question that we wrestle with in school and personal life..is why most *muslims* in particular refuse to engage critically with the past, our scholars, heritage, Hadith, even Quran? You can find someone who is an engineer, lawyer, computer scientist...someone who is able to critique articles written by "non muslims"...or write thesis statements on obscure engineering statements... yet when we come to Islam, its like we solemnly shut our minds and refuse to engage in anything, critically? to the extent of blasting others who attempt to do so...the "i'm not a scholar" is not going to work in front of Allah, who endowed us all with critical thinking abilities. i am not sure if this post belongs here..but its a little vent..and wanted to see what people's views are concerning this issue. jazakumu Allahu khayran..for your polite responses...in advance ;) [wlm] |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 05/14/04 at 21:43:47 |
| [slm] so you want us laymen, who have barely memorized a fraction of the Qur'an, and who barely understand a fraction of what they have memorized, to critically analyze the opinions and "errors" of our scholars? you ask too much my sister! you seem to be implying that if we don't, then we will be questioned and held accountable by Allah (awj) for not using our intellect. can you tell me where you're getting that from? where did Allah (swt) tell us that critical analysis of our past is binding upon every Muslim? hope that wasn't too impolite :) |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| bhaloo |
| 05/15/04 at 04:15:11 |
| [slm] No fighting between some of my favorite posters here. ;) I love to see how different scholars arrived at a certain opinion and the proofs they used. Alhumdullilah its great to see, and helps to increase us in knowledge and in understanding the religion. I think its silly not to know why something is done a certain way, or why do you have to practice certain things. I've talked to people that have been in this situation, and they no longer are Muslim because they just think Islam is a bunch of DOs and DONTs, and they don't understand why are they doing this and for what purpose does it serve. So yes we should ask knowledgable people WHY? and HOW COME? and refer to the great scholars of the past. |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| timbuktu |
| 05/15/04 at 09:14:26 |
| [slm] ditto, brother bhaloo but in my case it is due to being short on knowledge - very, very short :( sis Nur, I don't quite understand: [quote]why most *muslims* in particular refuse to engage critically with the past, our scholars, heritage, Hadith, even Quran? [/quote] Since it is "most" muslims, there must be some who do engage in this. I would love to see your examples of such critical examination. On IOL discussion forum, I have seen some, who judge the Hadith on whether it fits their standards of propriety. On other sites, some reject Hadith altogether. On yet others, some claim to accept those Hadith that fit in with their understanding of the Quran. |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| superFOB |
| 05/15/04 at 12:33:17 |
| [slm] [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=madrasa;num=1084551734;start=0#0 date=05/14/04 at 13:22:14]You can find someone who is an engineer, lawyer, computer scientist...someone who is able to critique articles written by "non muslims"...or write thesis statements on obscure engineering statements...[/quote] All sciences especially, engineering and computer science, are based on logic. Although most of the engineers are consequently good at logic but that is just simply not adequate. When you need to fix a car, you can't just take a screw driver and assume that you can replace the engine with it. I have seen way too many engineer types acting like muftis and I despise that. [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=madrasa;num=1084551734;start=0#0 date=05/14/04 at 13:22:14]yet when we come to Islam, its like we solemnly shut our minds and refuse to engage in anything, critically? to the extent of blasting others who attempt to do so...the "i'm not a scholar" is not going to work in front of Allah, who endowed us all with critical thinking abilities.[/quote] Maybe I am not understanding you correctly, how about you leading the way. Clue us in, give us a demo. |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| Maliha |
| 05/15/04 at 13:15:09 |
| [slm] sigh... This question is very inarticulately phrased...and I am not sure I will do any better of a job trying to explain it in this two dimensional media...but i'll try. As Muslims we didn't get where we are as a result of an accident. We didn't just wake up one morning from the heights of glory to being bombed, humiliated, beaten, castrated, etc. saying "lets go back to the deen" is a naive, simplified, manner of trying to fix the many maladies we have. Going back to the deen, is obviously the main point, but how? where do we begin? How can we fix all our issues from economic, to politics, to religious confusion, to oppression...is that all going to be fixed by itself, if me and you start praying today? Allah created this universe with laws and means....He sent us guides, Messengers the Quran to specify how to use those means in a suitable way to gain our place as Khalifas on earth. How many of us truly understand what the directives of the Quran are? How many truly understand what true Tawheed means...how to implement it? How to study the universe, and the Quran, and understand the way both are inter related and connected....because all of us come from Allah and to Him we return? Allah constantly tells us to look at the past, the people that were destroyed before us and learn from them. How much more important is studying our own history and determining where we went wrong and how to fix ourselves and our situation? As Muslims we have gradually frozen and placed our past out of reach. We are trying to scramble to the defense of our tradition at every moment. Our past scholars have become icons of infallibility. Yet even amongst themselves and across generations there were so many debates. They disagreed with a lot of respect for each other, Ibn Rushd centuries after Ghazali writes to critique his work. Ghazali centuries after Shafi, writes to expand on his methodology. The point is none of those people or those works were infallible, and they penned down their scholarship with the knowledge that it is going to be improved and worked upon and not simply frozen like they are pieces of prized trophies. Now don't jump on me and tell me those people were scholars, and we are dumb therefore we can't even begin to dissect their work. If you say that, then continue on the thread and simply refuse to read and even understand their work to begin with. Because to read Ibn Taymiyya blind of his context, his weaknesses, his struggle and try to simply cut and paste his understanding into our time is to do more harm then good for everyone. There are shuyukh today, yet you don't see the dynamic engagement of the past that you saw before. I went to a conference and was surprised at some of the examples that were being used to prove good points to the college kids. A speaker went on to give the formula for success: "if you spend a minute for dunya, you are taking out a minute from Akhera". That speaker himself was a Doctor (as in medicine graduate). Now make me understand his logic. Because the dichotomy of Dunya and akhera shouldn't exist in our minds. We are here to work, to build for the Akhera, to change this world that Allah made malleable for us. If we just leave it, and forget our purpose, the world will (and is currently) writhing in pain, blood, corruption and hypocrisy. And we are leading it and its inhabitants into destruction. Non of the scholars of the past were universal in their teachings. Shafi was very context specific, when he moved from Madina to Iraq, he transformed his thinking accordingly. From Iraq to egypt he changed his usul accordingly. Custom, the questions of the time, the politics, the environment each mattered and played a huge role in shaping the paradigm of the scholar. Yet we read all of them completely out of their context, and making their teachings completely absolute. Yet the only absolute text we have is the Quran. And how many of us engage the Quran critically? Was the Quran written for scholars only? How many of us really sit to analyze why Allah made a certain statement, the placing of the surahs, and how concepts are built and analyzed and answered in the Quran? The Quran was sent to a completely illiterate generation who became giants of scholarship and wisdom...the Quran has transformed many reverts into models of Islamic success. Yet so many of us read it blindly, in rote and refuse to even understand what it states and how it is *supposed* to change our lives. Are we not going to be questioned for that? I dont' understand that the very same brains we use in all aspects of our lives, seem to freeze when confronted with religious edicts. And we wonder why we are losing touch with reality. Our jobs as Muslims is not to cut and paste the past into the present. Or mimic 7th Century Arabia into 21 st century America. It is to understand the context we are in, and *emulate* the teachings, principles, and the universal aspects of our deen and change the paradigms of those who are around us and ourselves first of course. This is not to "change" islam, or to reject hadith, or to diss scholars without knowledge....but in the same way that we sacrifice to go to school and become engineers and lawyers, in the same way we sacrifice for our families..we can not afford to live without essential knowledge of our deen. The basics, not the level of extreme erudition and scholarship..if each of us who claim to be Muslims, understood the very basics of our religion, and critically engaged ourselves in that understanding to internalize it...maybe we would be a lot further in all aspects of our life. Wa Allahu Ta'ala A'alam. May Allah grant us true undertanding of the depth of beauty of this deen (Amin). [wlm] |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| timbuktu |
| 05/15/04 at 14:45:14 |
| [slm] sister Nur, I think I am beginning to understand what you are driving at, although it is still very hazy for me - only because of my own limitations. I have only read what others think the Quran says, or what the Hadith are supposed to mean. What the scholars say makes sense to me, and so I "shut" off my critical facilities. I don't know Arabic beyond reading it in an Urdu accent, so I would not want to hazard a guess as to what the Quran might actually mean. However, I would love to hear from people who have not limited themselves like me. about the placing of the Surahs, there is a set of scholars who have worked on it. I forget the name now, but in India the originator of the idea was the ustadh of Ameen Ahsan Islahi. In fact, many have tried to understand and analyze the Quran, and have claimed some extraordinary understanding. Wasn't the number "19" one of those discoveries? Was that Rashad Khalifa who made that claim? Perhaps that discovery is now being taken as a hoax? Sorry for asking these questions. I don't remember much of that, as my studies were purely in the secular domain. Unfortunately, many of the latter-day scholars are more prone to context-based interpretation, and to vanity, than is visible in the writings of the older ones. About the context thing, I can relate partly to that, but I am not quite sure what you mean. I understand that ibne Taimmiyya was writing at a time when the Mongol hordes were laying the Muslim lands waste, and what he saw was the attention to saints and graves and the copying of customs of the Christians, and he tried to bring the Muslims back to the teachings of Islam. I would think that should be equally applicable today. Why do you think his interpretation was context-specific. Similalry for Imam Shafiee's usul. I haven't read much of the evolution of his thoughts, and should keep my mouth shut, but you can give a history and synopsis of his ideas, I might have explanations. I may give you my take on Shah Waliullah's apparently divergent views, if Jannah will let me. I have wondered at the rise of different dynasties emphasizing different aspects of Islam; becoming dominant, then losing ground to other interpretations. For example, I look at Andalusia under the "Tawaif-ul-Muluk", followed by the Murabitun, which are replaced by Muwahideen, finally giving way to the Reconquesta. Any idea what the ideologies of the different factions of the Muslims were in those times? and why the decline occurred? Why did the Fatimids hold sway in Africa and the Qaramitah in Arabia and Sindh? Perhaps we being humans are prone to excesses. Perhaps at a particualr time circumstances dictated a certain type of emphasis, and when it became dominant, the blind copying and freezing made us stagnant, until the decay became so much that the pendulum had to swing the other way. As an example one can think about a very strict and unbending appication of the sharia, vs a very loose individualistic approach to the deen. I think your question and your ideas are very pertinent, but you have to provide the explanations and the answers to questions. if this post doesn't make sense, it is because I am very ignorant :) If you explain more, this will become clearer for me. |
| 05/15/04 at 14:48:13 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| superFOB |
| 05/15/04 at 18:33:28 |
| [slm] Nur Frankly speaking I didn't find anything new in your post, its a hundred year old argument. Although we need fresh thinking but I would not trust doctors or engineers with it, social scientists perhaps, but not without a formal training in religious sciences. I know engineers, I work with them, and I am one. I would not trust them with my food even! Speaking of social sciences, I've seen ulama who have a better insight into human nature than those thinkers and their views which dominate modern western thinking. Anyways, we need to change and that requires extraordinary sacrifice from some people. Would not happen any other way. |
| 05/15/04 at 18:38:53 |
| superFOB |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| Maliha |
| 05/15/04 at 21:27:30 |
| [slm] you are right superfob, its not a new idea..and i hope from my posts i didn't make it seem like i just had a stroke of genius. i am just really frustrated and my own ignorance is writhing within me..kicking and screaming its way to voice my stupid indignation on this board. so bros and sisters, forgive my inarticulate bursts of nothingness...and Inshaallah i'll think a little more before i make anymore inconsequential posts in here. Jazakumu Allahu Khayran for your responses. [wlm] |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| lucid9 |
| 05/16/04 at 16:54:56 |
| [quote author=Abu_Hamza link=board=madrasa;num=1084551734;start=0#1 date=05/14/04 at 21:43:47] so you want us laymen, who have barely memorized a fraction of the Qur'an, and who barely understand a fraction of what they have memorized, to critically analyze the opinions and "errors" of our scholars? [/quote] How can any self-respecting muslim carry on knowing next to nothing about islam and then keep on bragging to his non-muslim pals how great islam is, when he hardly knows anything about the religion he is practicing? Lack of knowledge is not an excuse. It is a sign of terrible disease crippling muslims. [quote] you ask too much my sister! [/quote] IY?! God put 24 hours in the day, 365 days in the year and over 70 years in most folks' lives. And most folks during that time spend several years in the toilet, 30 years asleep, and most of the remaining 30-40 either watching tv or slaving away so they can enrich some nonmuslim company. So why is too much to expect muslims to spend a few years studying about islam? [quote] you seem to be implying that if we don't, then we will be questioned and held accountable by Allah (awj) for not using our intellect. can you tell me where you're getting that from? where did Allah (swt) tell us that critical analysis of our past is binding upon every Muslim? [/quote] paradise is given to those who deserve it. E.g the one with knowledge (and acts on it and is guided by it) has a special rank in paradise. The one without knowledge will be lucky just to make it into paradise. There are zillions of hadith mentioning the merits of the knowledgable and people like the huffaz. |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| UmmWafi |
| 05/17/04 at 01:41:32 |
| [wlm] Rainbow I have yet to see you post anything inconsequential in here. Maybe because of all the many delicious conversations we have had that I understand the need behind the voice, the panic behind the calm. Maybe also because we, being the twins that we are, weep with the same sadness ;) Upon reading your initial post, I started to reflect on the many people I have had the good fortune to have met, people who not only embodied the spirit of the scholars of yore but who also diligently carried on the traditions of Islamic intellectualism. Yet, these same people are probably unknown to you and 98% of all the Muslims in the world and will remain unknown perhaps, who knows. The question is why ? At the risk of not having you call me sunshine anymore :D I must still insist that "I am no scholar" so my assessment below is just the reflections of an ordinary Muslim who is concerned. So here goes : 1. The majority of us are confused in our understanding of the basic ideas (and I very much include myself in this group) that shape our worldview. What compounds the problem is the fact that we are totally unaware of this confusion and build our whole worldsystem based on it. The confusion I am referring to is very dangerous because it deals with fundamentals like our understanding of Islam, our ujderstanding of Muslims, our understanding of knowledge in Islam, our understanding of the application of knowledge in Islam, our understanding of adab, our understanding of 'ibadah etc. The confusion is only half the problem. The bigger problem lies in our solutions to the confusion. Despite our awareness of our Muslim background, many of us still flounder when it comes to selecting sources for our enlightenment. Sure, we spout things like "the Qur'an and the Hadeeths are our sources" but do we internalise such beliefs or are we at one level or another corrupted by the cerebral vs existential debate ? If all of us internalise the belief that the Qur'an and the Hadeeths are our MAIN sources of knowledge, why then should a simple concept like jihaad be subjected to so many polaric interpretations that looking at the all the interpretations collectively, one begins to ask if the term jihad is perhaps used in more than twenty languages. Perhaps if we are honest with ourselves, we would realise and understand that we are also a product of living in a secular environment. We unwittingly allow secularism to erode our thought processes. Maybe that is why some of us are very apologetic when we talk about conceots like jihaad etc. 2. We have forgotten, and worse still, some of us are in total ignorance of exactly what our heritage is. For the few of us who bother to engage our attention on learning about the past, we tend to be very protective of what we think as "Islam" and seem to think that as long as we are talking abt Islam or the Muslim world we must focus on the glory and the good as if there isn't any grief nor tragedy. We talk abt the Golden Age of Islam, we extol the beauty and legacies of the Umayyad and Abbasids empire but we turn a blind eye towards the struggles amongst brothers, the fitan, the bloodshed. We make so many excuses for these lapses that we started to believe in those very excuses and in the end, what started as excuses became institutiojalised beliefs. Yes, the Umayyads and the 'Abbasids produced some of the most precious legacies like Islamic arts, thoughts that made Basrah and Damsyik the seats of Islamic renaissance but how many of remember the killings of the houses of 'Alid, Fatimids, Hashimites ? How many of us can remember that the second 'Abbasid Caliph was ruthless in killing the Hassanids and Husseinids ? The only reason he didn't kill Imam Ja'afar as-Sadiq was because he was afraid of the Imam but that didn't spare the life of the Imam's son. Some records even said he killed his own uncle who deserved the Caliphate more than him ! Mind you, these killings were not done in battle, with two sides fully armed and prepared. These killings were done with much subterfuge and viciousness (think nafs al Zakariyya) because of political ambitions, greed and paranoia. How many of us know of these or even willing to dwell on this "unpleasant and unfortunate" history of the Muslims ? Not many, that I can say, looking at the very shadows of such happenings in the "Muslim" countries today. 3. You mentioned Ibn Rush and Imam Ghazaali and Ibn Sina and of course we have all those wonderful scholars like Junaydi, Fakhruddin ar-Razi, Taftahzani and hundreds of others (may Allah SWT Bless each and everyone of these souls and place them in Jannah with those whom He Loves). These scholars, they are outstanding not because they did expositions after expositions on previous materials. They are outstanding also not because they made summaries of other people's work. They were outstanding because they dared to think. They were outstanding because they believed it was their duty to present the truth. They were never afraid to take on any work of scholars, studied it criticially and write their own understanding of the matter. Why were they able to do this and we can't ? My theory is that they had an excellent understanding and appreciation of what knowledge is and most importantly, the adab regarding knowledge. They were also always very much immersed in their "Muslim-ness" and rarely allowed their thoughts to be tainted by non-Islamic influences. Imam Ghazaali allowed worldly matters to influence him and he succumbed to a spiritual ailment. Unfortunately for us, we are beset with one failing. A failing grave enough to create this malaise in intellectualism as we see now. In my humble opinion, this failing is our complete ignorance of the adab of learning and of the definition of knowledge. Allahu 'alim. I remember a brother in my school who wrote as part of his MA requirement a thesis on some aspects of the works of Ibn Taymiyyah (may Allah SWT Bless his soul). He was very respectful of the Imam, his every words respect his reverence for the Imam's status as a Muslim who struggled in the path of 'ilm, yet his thesis kinda massacred the thoughts of the good Imam. His work caused quite a stir in another "Islamic" university which of course holds the belief that Ibn Taymiyyah should be above such criticisms. The Dean of that university obviously couldn't differentiate between criticising the man and criticising his work, something so many of us are also guilty of. (I read that brother's thesis and was so depressed after that. Depressed because I doubt I can ever write like that :'( ) Too often we see, even on this board, animosity because one person or another criticise the work of a scholar whom another member reveres. We have a long way to go before we can ever make the claim that we are on the road to Islamic Intellectual Revivalism. More I could say but since I am neither a social scientist nor "a scholar" :P I shall spare everyone further pains ;) I shall end this rambling of mine by saying that we are where we are because we chose to be here. Sure, we can always forward many valid-sounding claims like "I am a mere layman or I am busy getting my double MA now" or whatever but at the end of the day, we stopped ourselves from doing what we have not been doing. It is not really a bad thing though because I think most of us do that out of fear. Fear that we may not be good enough or we may not be knowledgeable enough to embark on a very serious enterprise like a critique on the work of Taftahzani. I guess maybe we should all start from the beginning. To understand what knowledge is. Most importantly to cultivate the proper adab of learning which made the Muslim scholars turned many attention away from Rome and the Church towards the people of Muhammad. Wassalam |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| Maliha |
| 05/18/04 at 06:00:48 |
| [slm] First off you will alwayz be mah sunshine 8) u aint gonna get rid of me that easy :P but really more importantly Jazaki Allahu Khayran, it's not everyday you meet someone who really doesn't make you feel like you just learned Greek, or you are hopelessly flaying your arms trying to sign language at perfectly normal people..sigh. :) your post was reflective of the kind of discussion i was hoping we'd all get into...Inshaallah kheir. two statements though from other posts really dumbfounded me, and i have been thinking about it a lot...especially coming from two esteemed members of this board: Abu Hamza: the statement of not being held accountable for using our intellect??? There are so many Ayahs in the Quran speaking of hearts that don't understand, and the blessings Allah endowed us with of hearing, seeing, thinking faculties and how each of them will be questioned for their part. I am sure you are very familiar with those ayahs..I really believe theoretically we don't have the same confrontations christianity had between reason and revelation..yet maybe in practice we really do? Superfob: The statement about trusting social scientists, and not engineers etc. Why draw artificial barriers between different disciplines? No matter what you have been trained to do, you can contribute very significantly to the general Islamic scholarship which is aching in every area. All sciences (even Physical) are based on very real assumptions, and applied sciences as well as social sciences are based on those same philosophical frameworks that require the thinking and contribution of Muslims from all areas to learn what they are and how to add to the ongoing debate on the fallacies of the "scientific methodology". There are fields of ethics, philosophy of sciences, development, the crises of education, and the list really goes on..where the Muslim voice is *much* needed but completely lacking. Is it because we haven't trained enough Muslims in the western sciences? No, on the contrary...there are many Muslims teeming with all kinds of degrees, that really haven't thought about how to contribute to those fields from an islamic perspective...why again? first we tend to accord Islamic scholarship to the narrow definitions of Fiqh, Tawheed (not even the totality of it), Tafseer etc. And then even *these* subjects have been completely zapped of their life giving force by freezing them, and regurgitating them for generations....Yet we have always had scholars, cum philosophers, scientists, mathematicians..etc. Why the not so sudden dichotomy between the "dunya" (artificial barrier here) "akhera" subjects? When we speak of Dawah, its always in terms of trying to convert people one on one...Dawah can take many forms and can you imagine Muslims making a concerted effort to actually research their areas of specialties and contributing to the entire *well* being of the societies they live in??? There are soo many issues in the US, so many people suffering, so many opportunities to contribute in a significant way to the debates on what is a good alternative to an ailing civilization...and this is exactly what our predecessors did..not the usual standard Muslim response "they are kaafirs, if they were Muslims they won't have any of these problems" ::) (i am not even going to go into the fact that Muslims numbers are also increasing shelters, juvenile homes,etc). which adds another point...the whole point of Islam, is to reform people and societies not to *replace* them with something alien. The model of 7th Century Saudi Arabia, is a model...the Rasul [saw] did not get rid of everything in the society..there were things that were in line with Islam. Things that weren't compatible were gotten rid off. we can't honestly say that *nothing* at all in the West has *any* Islamic value??? we can't just go behind the usual "kaafir/Muslim" separation by who is wearing a kufi and who has jeans on? how much dialogue is going on along these lines...how do we look at this society and bring out the best in it, and minimize the worst in it? How can we find "allies" who are already trying to work along those lines (cuz trust me, while we are sleeping others are campaigning against all forms of injustices out there..) will it take some extra Islamic studies training to be able to accomplish the above..of course..and unless you are *dead* there is no reason why you can't acquire the necessary skills to do so...Not to mention there are people already working along these lines. There is nothing *new* i am saying here...its just i'm puzzled at how we just assume Ulamah/Muslim scholars alone are responsible for *thinking* for *us*, and that only through direct Islamic studies we can contribute to this civilization and our Ummah, and the whole dunya/Akhera dichotomy, and the whole reason/revelation dissection..and many other things that just don't make sense anymore...how we can have a billion plus muslims who are deliberately handicapping their faculties, because the masses dont think they have anything important to contribute to this world. sorry, i may be talking greek again...but you can always blame it on a few precious souls (whose names will remain anonymous for their own safety) ;) , for making me crawl out from under me rock to post this.... okay, "puts her dunce cap on" i am done thinking for the day :) [wlm] |
| 05/18/04 at 06:16:28 |
| Maliha |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| Nadeem |
| 05/18/04 at 09:32:00 |
| [slm] Salam Everyone! Wow! This is a good topic. Sis Nur, your post was not inconsequential at all! I think you raise very important points and I admire you for speaking up on point that many people (myself included) think about but do not always say. Sis UmmWafi, masha'allah I really like your post, lot of good, well articulated points and a good general analysis. As has been mentioned previously in this thread many Muslims have difficulty with critical self anlaysis. Muslims seem to be in a state where we feel so under attack that we have become defensive in defending our "culture" to the extent that some things are so vehemently defended that are not even anything significant in terms of Islam. I feel that with some exceptions, many things should be critically examined and re-examined. A lot of the problem may have to do with ignorance. In our ignorance we go to others to learn more about a subject, any subject be it medicine, politics, or Islam. In this respect, we have many great scholars in Islam over the years. Much can be learned from the painstaking lengths these men and women took, devoted their time and effort to learning about Islam and then converted their knowledge into a form which could be communicated to others for learning. So our scholarly heritage is vast and varied and a good source for learning. The crucial point it seems is to what point do you use scholarly works for learning and knowledge purposes, so that you do not become so inebriated with particular scholars and scholarly works? If we reach this state this invariably seems to lead to blind following. As Muslims we believe that only Allah(God) is infallible. Therefore Allah's words are infallible. If we believe that Quran is the word of Allah, then Quran is infallible. Everyone agrees to this point. Its here that the disputes begin: "Hadith is infallible!" "All Hadiths are false!" "Some Hadiths are false!" "Four imams are infallible!" "That imam is infallible. Mine is not!" "I follow what the Salafi, Shafi, Hanafi, Wahabi does, all others are false." "All innvovation is wrong. Therefore anything that does not comply with Imam Malik's take on Islam is innovation!" "No, anything that does not comply with Ibn Taymiyyah's thoughts are wrong!" And the list goes on and on. Aren't these kind of rigid statements is not only insult to the person they are "takfir-ing" but insults "their" Imams and scholars aswell? Doesnt history tell us that even the early Muslims disagreed on many many points? Did every second one of them start insulting someone else's Islam just because they didnt agree with them? Critical analysis is healthy for us, or not? If you examine something and ask questions doesnt it aid your understanding of it? And arent we all in need of better understanding? [wlm] |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| se7en |
| 05/18/04 at 15:10:06 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah, Sis Nur, I am totally feeling your post, and I think it is absolutely necessary and essential to work in the manner you have mentioned.. but one of the reasons I am hesitant about this idea is the total lack of tazkiya among us, as well as a lack of deeply rooted knowledge in the sciences. There are so many people out there now seeking to reinterpret Islam, critically analyze the works of scholars of the past, and they do not have solid grounding in 'ilm or in tazkiya.. So they distort the texts intentionally, or misterpret them according to their own inclinations. That's what worries me, and I think others.. that there are so many people out there now seeking to apply Islam to a modern context, and promoting new ideas and strategies, and yet we have no idea if their aqeeda is straight and whether their deen is on lock. But when it comes to scholars of the past, known for their piety and uprightness, and no underlying agenda of selling their book or working for a particular group, they are easier to trust than people of today. Tariq Ramadan is a really good example of someone who is knowledgeable and is working to do the work you are mentioning sis maliha. gotta go, insha'Allah will post more later.. wasalaamu alaykum, 7 |
| 05/18/04 at 17:47:41 |
| se7en |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| muslimah853 |
| 05/18/04 at 16:19:12 |
| [slm] I think I may understand what you are getting at sister, but I think we need to consider one thing. A sound intellect also understands its limits. It is not intelligent to jump off of a building because I am convinced I can fly. That is madness. Certainly there are people who feel that asking any question implies a lack of faith or something like that. That is one extreme. The other extreme is where people feel that simply because they live and breathe they have the right to an opinion on any subject whatsoever. Maybe it's a symptom of the society that we live in, where people have opinions on everything, whether they have any actual knowledge of it or not. Maybe it's a result of lack of humility. Maybe it's a genuine yearning for understanding. Maybe it's all of these things. But we should be striking a balance between too much questioning and too little. It is one thing for Imam ash Shafi'i to disagree with Imam Malik, it's another kettle of fish entirely for the likes of me to disagree with either of them based on my jacked up understanding of Arabic and what not. Deferring to an expert isn't surrendering your intellect, necessarily. We do it all of the time. People who get arrested generally don't try to defend themselves in court (with good reason, those few who do normally end up in jail). If you don't have the skill set to navigate the court system, you can hem yourself up pretty bad and in a hurry. You don't have people performing surgery on themselves or building their own cars. The thing is this--not all of us were meant to be scholars. That's okay--if we were, we wouldn't have doctors or engineers or bakers or dry cleaners. Access to knowlege is Islam is equal--provided you can arrange the logistics. If you have burning questions, or desire a deeper understanding and the himma to do what it takes to get it, by all means seek it. Dedicate yourself to acquiring a deeper understanding. We certainly need more people like that. But...until any individual reaches a level of knowledge where they can speak with any authority, then the intelligent thing to do is to recognize their own limits and defer to those who actually are at that level. That being said, I do understand that there are some very anti-'intellectual', anti-use your brain in any type of way currents in some of our communities. This is in no way a defense of that mentality. And it is a fact that we are not comparable to our predecessors in knowledge. Ignorance is much more rampant, access to quality learning of the religious knowledges is much more scarce than in previous generations....and our state is very reflective of that on so many levels. I don't know if this helps at all :-) |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| Maliha |
| 05/19/04 at 17:32:45 |
| [slm] there are several assumptions i wanted to clarify...lest i am labelled ze heretic or ze one trying to diss scholars or anything else... -on the importance of worldview: sis ummwafi mentioned how we are confused at the very basic level. Sis Se7en mentioned the importance of tazkiya, and learning from people whose very aqeedah we are not sure of. the thing about aqeedah that surprises me about muslims...is we are content to have our views shaped from our formative years to college by complete non believers and we are okay with that. yet, the minute a muslim opens his mouth, we want to discredit them based on anything we can lay our hands on. yes, the importance of taking our ilm from those whose knowledge/grounding we are sure of can not be underestimated...yet, the concept of Aqeeda itself being so loaded has evolved with history. if you look at simply the Quran and Sunnah, we see the principles of Aqeeda aren't that many. Over time, with the proliferation of Mutazilis, shias, khawarij etc. the majority, had to add other elements that distinguished a "true" muslim from the other sects. The problem is now we have a huge checklist of things that a Muslim *must* profess they believe, in order to check their aqeedah; while the requirements listed by the Quran aren't as burdensome. I remember in reading Muhammad Ghazali, something struck my heart soo deep: he said we place our differences of opinions to become like boulders upon which the real principles of Islam are hidden behind Instead of uniting, across sects, ideologies, preferences, by the very strong adhesive of faith; and not being like the ones the Quran warned us against who tore up their faith into sects ; where each sect became happy with what they have...we are busy trying to deligitimize each other based on some issues that are reflective of our ignorance in the totality of our worldview. -the issue of tazkiya: it is a lifelong struggle. There should be no point where someone feels they have 'reached' a certain station and they feel content. but the Quran goes beyond establishing and reforming the individual, it moves on to building a family, a society, an ummah. I can't read the Quran everyday and completely cast a blind eye to the huge responsibility of being a khalifa on earth. The meanings and implications of what we must do, goes beyond my individual self... and this was demonstrated by the Rasul (SAW) and the sahaba. this issue like many are completely tied back to the worldview. What is your worldview? is the earth so corrupt, so beyond hope, that we should simply retreat into our homes and focus on personal purification? or are we enjoined to continue working despite the odds, and placing our trust in Allah? Other related issues are: who is the khalifa? (*not* the imam of the ummah, but the individual vicergerent) is that a role delegated to the Ulamah alone? or is the responsibility of every single Muslim and Muslimah? If we are each accountable for all our blessings, faculties, and everything, then why is it we are content to live secular apathetic lives? If we are each Khulafaa on earth, with all the implications of that, then why is a billion plus muslims either asleep or too tortured, beaten, and humiliated to even keep their heads up? I am not asking these questions because i have answers to them ...cuz Allah knows i don't have any answers...just more questions actually...i am just frustrated and trying to figure out what your perspectives are and maybe inshaallah it will help me piece together this struggle i am undergoing right now. May Allah reward you for your thought out comments:) And may He guide us all (Amin). [wlm] |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| rkhan |
| 05/20/04 at 01:16:21 |
| [slm] There’s so much going on here, and I really need a certificate of (in)credibility before I speak up, but I just want to say this: 1.According to the Qur’aan, a distinguishing feature of Muslims is that they say: same’naa wa ataa’ana[we hear and we obey.] SEmantics, splitting hairs, second-guessing the Messengers and the Scriptures of Allaah in the spirit of [i] same’na wa aasaynaa [we hear and we disobey] [/i] was the forte of Banee Israeel, and they were reprimanded for it and subjected to punishment for it by Allaah Himself. 2.Islaam is [i] the only religion [/i] that not just [i] invites and encourages [/i]scrutiny of its beliefs and scriptures but successfully withstands such scrutiny. Just look at the enormous number of ppl through time who set out to learn Islaam and its precepts in order to negate it, but found out for themselves that it is The TRUTH. 3.Islaam does NOT belittle human intelligence…in fact the Qur’aan repeatedly appeals to reason and to all thinking ppl [ulul albaab] to reflect for themselves and ponder over the message of our Creator ….and ppl who hv done that with a sincere heart with the intention to learn; have only emerged with their faith strengthened and renewed. Given the number of ppl who are deliberately distorting Islaam and its principles today, for anyone to critically engage with Islaam, one must first clarify what the intention and purpose behind it is. Why do we want to do that? Is it to learn and satisfy our quloob and to eventually inshaAllaah attain a Nafs al Mutmainnaah [a satisfied soul] that is pleased with Allaah and is pleasing to Him? Or is it to pick and choose a politically correct form of Islaam from mismatched portions of the Book of Allaah? Once that intention is made clear, I’m at a loss why should anyone think that Islaam requires belief in its principles just "because". Critically examining Islaamic history and the ppl who made it is completely different from a critical examination of Islaamic scriptures. History was made and recorded by human beings...[i] fallible creatures [/i]; while the Qur'aan is the word of the Infallible Creator. However the examination of both has one prerequisite : a solid knowledge base. A lay person looking through a telescope will see the same points of light as an astronomer, but only an astronomer will be able to explain what those points of light mean and what is their significance. Why? Because he has spent a lot of time and effort to build up his basic knowledge , and that is the solid foundation on which he bases his opinion. A lay person can probably correctly describe what his eyes see, but anything beyond that is simply beyond his scope. The Qur’aan says: inna yassarnal Qur’aana li dhikri fa hal mim mudakkir… Allaah has made the Qur’aan easy to follow, to remember and to reflect over…it doesn’t say that its critical analysis has been made easy….and that’s the only point I want to make. It is NOT easy. Re: Muslim contribution to society Islaam was not designed to be a minority religion. We wouldn’t have the concepts of da’wah as a personal obligation; of ahl az dhimma if it was. I feel that the search for Islaam in a society that is built on values that are the complete anti-thesis of Islaam is futile, at best. The West is built on the premise of the Self…its gratification and its obedience... in good things and bad. [If you’ve read Atlas Shrugged and The Virtues of Selfishness by Ayn Rand, who was virtually the high priestess of what the West stood for at one point in time you’ll knw what I’m getting at] Im NOT saying that Muslims are fundamentally incapable of living in the West without compromising their deen, or that there is no good and there’s nothing to be learnt from the society; but whatever goodness exists is because ppl are following their Desire to be Good, they are doing what their Self dictates in terms of being good, helpful, kind, generous….whatever. On the other hand, Islaam is abt following one’s Creator, submitting one’s Self completely to His Will. I honestly feel that Islaam and Muslims can benefit societies they live in enormously. However, I differ on [i] how [/i] that benefit can come about. When talking about Muslim contribution to society I’m thinking... putting the principles of Islaam into practice: soup kitchens and shelters for battered women, the homeless and aged; affordable private schools and well organized orphanages, Muslim-run universities, hospitals and community centres, well kempt play areas in downmarket colonies, things which will tangibly benefit everyone instead of conferences and debates and more words. I feel this way because I know that when all is said and done, words….even the best of them…remain just that. Maybe that' s a simple minded and simplistic view, but then that’s me. InshaAllaah, for further discussion contact me at simplistic@solutions.com :) |
| 05/20/04 at 03:43:02 |
| rkhan |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| Nadeem |
| 05/20/04 at 05:32:56 |
| [slm] Masha'allah good post sis Reflection. :) I guess this suggests that we should all do what we can to increase our knowledge, so we are more learned. Not everyone *can* be a scholar, not everyone *should* be a scholar, but nevertheless we should all pursue scholarly pursuits to the best of our abilities in order to increase our understanding of Allah's message to us through Prophet Muhammad [saw], even if it be, reading one ayat of the Quran and reflecting on it deeply. I also thought your point about positive action like helping the poor in our communities and helping innercity deprived communities was excellent. Ameen. [wlm] |
| 05/20/04 at 05:34:47 |
| Nadeem |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| Maliha |
| 05/20/04 at 07:15:00 |
| [slm] Reflection jazaki Allahu khayran for your amazing reflections (pun intended) on the topic:) okay a couple more things...Inshaallah maybe i will keep my peace after this post. -A layman has no business laying their hands on anything without learning the skills necessary to understand. I saw that point being repeated a lot, so i pray that my posts didn't reflect anything that says otherwise (if it did, it is my mistake sincerely). Jihad or enjoining good and forbidding evil should ideally exist on many levels: -1) Self: Tazkiya, learning and struggling with one's self. 0) one's family/loved ones: teaching/learning with one's family. 1) Activism/ grass roots level : Alhamdullillah we see many Muslims trying in this area to do good things, at least in the West. 2) Academic level: Where everyone in their *respective* fields, can go learn more about the Islamic perspective, gain more skills in research and try to find areas where they can introduce an Islamic paradigm to their fields. Right now there are many brewing debates as i mentioned before and in very little of them do we find Muslims. (if you need to take time off to learn how to acquire these skills, why not?) thing is, a scholar in the traditional field can no longer be everything. There is a high level of specialization in all fields, and those specialist western educated muslim, need to also learn the necessary pre reqs to be able to contribute to their fields in an islamic perspective. They need to be able to work with Faqihs in a language they both understand to further the cause of Muslims in the world today. 3) on Scholarly theological level: This is the area of the elite, those who took the extra mile to go learn true islamic knowledge. This is an area that also requires a lot of work only by those qualified to undertake it. To be able to formulate responses to all the so called "reformers" out there, and not let them simply get away with misleading others because they are simply "written off" as outside the pale of Islam. to critically engage the past, to look at the underlying principles of Islam and be able to teach others and propagate more scholars on this level. The whole point is there is no reason why any Muslim shouldn't at least be trying at least to level 2. If a person is not an "academic" that's fine, but at least in their profession they should reflect the best ethics, personality, beauty, etc and at the same continue increasing their knowledge. (except now: the most often heard phrase amongst *muslims* is "don't do business with other muslims..." cuz we in all honestly, we lack professionalism in many aspects and some even basic honesty. Reflections, your assessment of the West is not fair to say the very least. Not everyone is seeking to "please their self"; the paradigm of the society is pushing for consumerism and individualism; *but* there is a lot of struggling, suffering people within this society that are yearning to find the Truth. And *us* muslims aren't doing a good job reaching them. Listen to any story of a revert, and see the struggle that they underwent. besides, there is a lot of *decent* basically *good* people, who i have encountered that are better in *ethics*, and *morals* than many, many self professed Muslims I know. Also, there are many associations/organizations/non profits that are constantly fighting for people's rights, going abroad to help others, fighting injustices on the environment, politics, etc. And many of them, do it because it is the *right* thing to do. Truth resonates in many hearts, and its not Muslims that have a claim on it. Some people in the west are already inclined towards the Truth, and it doesn't take a lot of work from the Muslims to actually show them the beauty of Islam..the problem is many times, the actions of the Muslims themselves are pushing people away...and also maybe a time or two Muslims could actually learn something from these "kuffar" :o sigh...okay Jannah, if you ban me, i wouldn't blame ya:) but really, i am not supporting the typical "reform Islam" or go back to the heritage and diss everything...on the contrary....we should at least learn the basic fundamentals of what makes one a true upright Muslim and how we can in *all* areas of our life be able to introduce Islam in every language, level, and beautiful action that we can muster. This is not the job of the scholar alone; and maybe if more muslims actually internalized this aspect we wouldn't be suffering so much. [wlm] |
| 05/20/04 at 07:18:51 |
| Maliha |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| rkhan |
| 05/20/04 at 23:56:06 |
| [slm] [quote] Listen to any story of a revert, and see the struggle that they underwent. besides, there is a lot of *decent* basically *good* people, who i have encountered that are better in *ethics*, and *morals* than many, many self professed Muslims I know. Also, there are many associations/organizations/non profits that are constantly fighting for people's rights, going abroad to help others, fighting injustices on the environment, politics, etc. And many of them, do it because it is the *right* thing to do. Truth resonates in many hearts, and its not Muslims that have a claim on it. [/quote] Yaaaaaaaaaa Noooooor, :-* I find it extremely disturbing when Muslims living in the West assume that those who aren't are talking thru their hat...or in my case niqaab...when it comes to the society they live in. I have not only listened to a revert's struggles, I have been [i] part of it [/i]. I hv relatives ...as in Uncles and Aunts who are siblings of one of my parents....in the Uk and US who are English as twinings tea. They are the best, kindest, most loving and generous ppl I know. They care about the world enough to do solid things for it, they participate in anti-war rallies and campaign for environment issues and are generally the best of the human species. I love them dearly and they love me...but that doesn't change the fact that they do all these things because they feel it's the right thing to do ; not because Allaah asked them to and they want to obey and please Him. Subhaanallah, I'm thinking... if just following one's innate pure nature that Alllaah has endowed all of mankind with can lead to so much goodness, just think *how* much better a place the world would be if we all align our natures and submit our Selves to The One Who Made Us. My relatives are so seriously good by virtue of not corrupting their fitrah , it breaks my heart that they're not Muslim. They're not opposed to Islaam , an opponent is so much easier to convince. They appreciate it and its values, but can't understand why they hv to *follow* it...it's another way of life, another philosophy not THE way of Life , which is what Muslims believe. [quote] Some people in the west are already inclined towards the Truth, and it doesn't take a lot of work from the Muslims to actually show them the beauty of Islam..the problem is many times, the actions of the Muslims themselves are pushing people away...and also maybe a time or two Muslims could actually learn something from these "kuffar" [/quote] Speaking for myself, I can assure you that we've been trying our best to show them the beauty of Islaam, but somehow our best hasn't been good enough...yet. InshaAllaah, I hope and fervently pray that they [i] will [/i] see the light of islaam, but shall I tell you something that seriously puts them off? It's ppl who say that Muslims are ppl like them, but forget to add that we're also ppl like us . Muslims who are clumsily apologetic about following their deen, who want to whitewash a lot of stuff in their scriptures with politically correct explanations. One of the things they pointed out to me -- very correctly -- is that for a religion that is so crystal clear, why haven't its followers even got the basic concepts down pat? Why are they still debating over hijaab and jihaad and hadeeth? Who would want to leave a peaceful place to enter a house in disorder? If they're ambivalent to islaam, its because Muslims hv given them the impression that they're still in the process of testing out the deen to see if it works well. Speaking for myself, I *firmly* believe that there's nothing in our deen and its principles that needs another close look. The Qur'aan is crystal clear in its injunctions, it's all there in black and white. Our history is there for everyone to see and hopefully learn from. As long as Muslims put the principles of Islaam into practice, they were the best of ppl -- this is something that the entire world attests to. The real trouble began when we exchanged our hunger for scholarship and knowledge, of practice of the deen and invitation to it for mean personal goals, when we let our submisison to Allaah be eclipsed by gratification of our SElf; when we bartered the stars in our eyes for cheap tinsel. imo, [i] thats[/i] the problem really worthy of research and soul searching today: the collective Muslim psyche in the modern world. Why do a lot of Muslims harbour this feeling in a little corner of their minds that Islaam in its totality is not really viable/workable in today's times, when Allaah Himself says that His Laws are for all times and all ages? Why are Muslims who feel passionately about practising their deen given the impression that they're a little crazy to do that...and it's enough to do the bare minimum but any extra effort to please Our Creator is going "overboard"? Why is telling ppl of an ayat of the Qur'aan or hadeeth met with a ::) response? We do have issues, but they've nothing to do with the scriptures. They have to do with our selves-- our understanding of the deen and our practice of it. And my sincere prayer is that our Ummaah wakes up to the urgency of resolving them before we go completely off course. |
| 05/21/04 at 00:23:23 |
| rkhan |
| Re: Why do we shut our Minds when it comes to Isla |
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| Nadeem |
| 05/21/04 at 12:22:08 |
| [slm] Mashallah, Sis, good post. I'm really feeling a lot of your points especially the following: [quote author=Reflection link=board=madrasa;num=1084551734;start=10#19 date=05/20/04 at 23:56:06]My relatives are so seriously good by virtue of not corrupting their fitrah , it breaks my heart that they're not Muslim. They're not opposed to Islaam , an opponent is so much easier to convince. They appreciate it and its values, but can't understand why they hv to *follow* it...it's another way of life, another philosophy not THE way of Life , which is what Muslims believe.[/quote] I know many people like this, many good people like you say. I agree it can be frustrating. Maybe it is frustrating only because we believe in what *we* believe above all other ways; that *our* way is the right way. How can we persuade people like this? This may be a bit off topic but if you would permit me to walk this tangent... I tried to view it through their eyes, although I don't know how good my attempt has been. Probably people who've reverted can give better insight into this, but anyways, here goes: "Why should I perform all the religious duties that *you* feel are important? Prayer is good for you, rememberance of God.... But why do I have to pray at set times with these set positions? Why does God require me to do that? Why can't I just pray when I want to? Fasting is good for you, good for your health also... Okay, but why do I have to go without water aswell? And why do I have to do it for thirty days? I can do a detox day every fortnight to keep healthy. Zakat, charity for the poor and needy, good for the whole community.... Yes I agree, charity is great, and we should also look after our planet, global warming, protect the rainforests. But why do I need to become a Muslim for that?" I could go on, but I'll leave it at that. I guess the main problem stems from belief. If you believe in God, thats the first step. Then its what kind of god do you think is the true representation of God? That leads you to the second step. Then if you believe in Prophets receiving divine inspiration from God, then I guess that leads you to one of the monothestic religions. Then its a choice of which Prophet do you believe in? Everyone up to, but not including Jesus(pbuh)? Then I guess Judaism is for you. Everyone up to Jesus(pbuh)? Then I guess the person would look at Christianity. Up to Muhammad(pbuh)? Then Islam would interest you. The reason for the above rambling is that, if the person thinking and examing these things doesnt believe that Muhammad [saw] received divine inspiration in the form of the Quran, then all the other actions and duties of prayer, fasting, zakat, hajj are irrelevant and immaterial. Does this mean that the way to share Islam with people is to convince them that Muhammad [saw] was indeed a Prophet who received divine guidance? If he [saw] is not, then the Quran is just another book, Muslims are just another religious club, and why should they -good people, who have good morals, and help their community, and teach their children to be upstanding citizens, etc - join the club? It makes sense to us, but how do we communicate that effectively to others. Why did the early Muslims find it much easier to persuade others about Islam, or even defend Islam from criticism? Is it because they worked harder at it? Is it because the non-Muslim people around them were more easily convinced than the world today? Is it because they knew more about their Islam than we do? These questions are not rhetorical, I'm really interested to know. [quote]Why are Muslims who feel passionately about practising their deen given the impression that they're a little crazy to do that...and it's enough to do the bare minimum but any extra effort to please Our Creator is going "overboard"? [/quote] I'm so feeling you on this point, sis. Not sure. Maybe its because of the current climate, everyone is nervous of anyone who sticks their head above the parapet? (The parapet seems so low now, that it seems we stick our heads above it even when we wake up in the morning! :)) Maybe it's because the people feel threatened that people practising may be right, and that makes them feel bad, and why are you bursting their lil bubble? ::) Okay my over-loooooooooooooooong post is... over. :) [wlm] |
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