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Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women

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Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
Moe_D
05/15/04 at 13:19:31
Vatican's Muslim marriage warning
(Filed: 15/05/2004)


The Vatican warned Roman Catholic women yesterday to think hard before marrying a Muslim, while urging Muslims to show more respect for human rights, gender equality and democracy.

 

Calling women "the least protected member of the Muslim family", it spoke of the "bitter experience" western Catholics had with Muslim husbands, especially if they married outside the Islamic world and later moved to the man's country of origin.

The comments in a document about migrants were preceded by remarks about points of agreement between Christians and Muslims but they seemed likely to fuel mistrust between the world's two largest religions.

The document said the Church discouraged marriages between believers in traditionally Catholic countries and non-Christian migrants. "Bitter experience teaches us that a particularly careful and in-depth preparation is called for."

It said one possible problem was with Muslim in-laws and advised future mothers that they must insist that children born of a mixed marriage be baptised and brought up as Catholics.

Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
al-ajnabia
05/16/04 at 08:02:52
[slm]
muslimas ought to be careful marying catholics too. Theres some who drink like fish, and are a little free with the backs of their hands, ugg and then theres the ones who were altar boys, sheesh. ::)
let he who is without sin cast the first stone
sheesh. ::)
Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
resistance4ever
05/16/04 at 16:49:22
[slm]

how would muslim men react if muslim women decided to marry christians and other non-muslims? i suspect the reaction would not be a report "discouraging" it, but, from what past cases show, the women would probably receive death threats from muslims, be attacked and the family would disown her.

so the reaction of the christians towards their women marying muslim men isnt really that shocking.

[wlm]
Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
Stephanie
05/16/04 at 21:59:25
[slm]
I thought Catholics could only marry other Catholics.  I've seen a lot of non-Catholics who have to go through a barrage of classes in order to convert before marrying.  I'm sure there are people here who no better who will correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, I would have to strongly disagree in the statement that we are the "least protected" although I will admit that injustices do occur.  Seems like another misrepresentation about the true nature of Islam.
[wlm]
:-)  your sis

Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
A_Stranger
05/17/04 at 10:19:36
[slm]

Just a quick point: Muslim women ain't supposed to marry non-Muslim men [i]anyway[/i]. Muslimahs can only marry Muslim men, and it is permissible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim woman if she is Christian or Jewish, but it is not permissible for him to marry a non-Muslim woman who follows any religion other than these two. The evidence for that is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

[i]“Made lawful to you this day are At‑Tayyibaat [all kinds of Halaal (lawful) foods, which Allaah has made lawful (meat of slaughtered eatable animals, milk products, fats, vegetables and fruits)]. The food (slaughtered cattle, eatable animals) of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) is lawful to you and yours is lawful to them. (Lawful to you in marriage) are chaste women from the believers and chaste women from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) before your time when you have given their due Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), desiring chastity (i.e. taking them in legal wedlock) not committing illegal sexual intercourse, nor taking them as girlfriends”[/i]

[al-Maa'idah 5:4]
Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
timbuktu
05/17/04 at 11:25:47
[slm]

[quote author=shareislam link=board=bro;num=1084637971;start=0#3 date=05/16/04 at 21:59:25] ..... I thought Catholics could only marry other Catholics. I've seen a lot of non-Catholics who have to go through a barrage of classes in order to convert before marrying. I'm sure there are people here who no better who will correct me if I'm wrong.[/quote]

May have been true at one time (Dark Ages, maybe), but for quite some time Catholics are allowed to marry non-Catholics provided the spouse commits himself/ herself to raising the children as Catholics. With the West's focus on religion being an entirely private and personal matter, this is not being adhered to. However, devout Catholics still insist on this. I said something in a thread here about a Hijabi Muslimah being married to a Catholic with the provision that the children would be raised as Catholics.

[quote]I would have to strongly disagree in the statement that we are the "least protected" although I will admit that injustices do occur. Seems like another misrepresentation about the true nature of Islam.[/quote]

Considering that the West thinks it is the best thing that has happened to the world, and points to it by the number of people (Muslims and Muslimahs included) flocking to it, it regards the custody of children, freedom to socialize and the "pursuit of happiness" as the criteria on which to judge a society. Muslim societies "fail" on that score for women. Hence this statement.

A Sranger wrote, [quote]Just a quick point: Muslim women ain't supposed to marry non-Muslim men anyway. Muslimahs can only marry Muslim men[/quote]

True, but that has broken down in non-Muslim societies. They even marry idol-worshippers. Studying in missionary schools has brought about a variety of opinion re religion, plus the worldly freedom of the West has made it attractive for people to give up some of these practices.
05/17/04 at 23:54:02
timbuktu
Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
Ayla_A
05/17/04 at 23:08:29
[slm]

I am an x catholic and the church doesn't like it much if you marry outside the faith.  If you do not get married in the church (say by a justice of the peace or Imam) they do not recognize your marriage, which can lead to alot of sin in the eyes of the church.

The issue is probably more the fact that so many catholic women are converting to Islam.  Many of my convert friends are x catholics.  They either became muslim before  marriage or because of being married to a muslim they got exposed to Islam and converted.

I believe this is the real fear of the church, not the warning of that they shouldn't marry muslims.....

[wlm]
:-)Ayla_A

Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
Mujahideen
05/18/04 at 04:11:19
[slm]



In all honesty I don’t see how Muslims think it is lawful to marry Jews or Christians in North America.

Yes of course I do understand that under Fiqh it is, in principle, lawful to marry people of the book – as far as I am aware there is consensus on this matter.

It is important to also recognize that the same Fiqh positions that hold it is a lawful practice also impose certain condition upon such a union. In part - the children produced from any such marriage must be raised as Muslims.

I don’t see how anyone can guarantee that such a condition can be fulfilled.

If the marriage ends someone will have to take custody of the children – if they are to be raised as Muslim then this would have to be the father.

How can anyone guarantee they will have custody of children if they get a  divorce?

Courts always base their decisions on ‘the best interests of the child’.

In our community this is a serious problem – often young Arab men immigrate here are decide to marry white Christian women,  she agrees that the children will be raised as Muslim and the Imams marry them. After a few years of marriage and a few kids things sour and they are divorced – now they are mad at each other and  she wants custody of the children.

Most courts will generally side with the mother as women are often more able to care for the children as the courts see this as being in the best interest of the children.  If the man is an immigrant they will be more reluctant to give him custody as they will fear he will take the children overseas to his homeland, especially if he is not a citizen.

It recently happened to one Brother who married a Christian lady, had a daughter and then got divorced. They are fighting over custody now – he basically does not have a hope as he is not a citizen is not in as good a position as she is in terms of raising the girl becuse he has to work and she does not. She has raised concerns he may take the girl back to the Middle East if he is granted custody. She has placed the girl in a Christian school, mostly out of spite it seems as she is not even that religious herself. What do you think the chances are of this girl being raised a Muslim?

I don’t see how ‘indigenous’ Muslims are any better able to ensure this requirement is fulfilled. Even if you are a citizen its still the ‘best interests of the child’ which are considered and they are not going to factor the Deen of the father in above all else.

Thus if you cannot guaruntee, nor even have a reasonable expectation, that the children will be raised as Muslims - which is a condition to entering into such a marriage - How can one consider this an acceptable practice?
Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
Nadeem
05/19/04 at 11:43:57
[slm]

Bro Mujahideen, I can see the point you're trying to make, and I do feel for people in similar positions to your friend.  I do not have children of my own at the moment, but I would like to raise a few points if you would permit me.

The point about the child being deliberately put into Christian school is a difficult one.  Perhaps your friend could teach his child to begin with by focussing on the similarities between the two faiths, as well as gently showing where Islam stands on differing points.

For example, logically explaining the difference between Islam's take of One God, as compared to the Catholic take, of three distinct entities within the One Godhead.  Obviously, if the child is very young there is no need to get into deep theological teachings.

Also just showing his child simple actions of Muslims, like for example the way Muslims pray, eat, dress, even wash.

It must be quite difficult for the child to be filled with two different religions ways of thinking.  Perhaps the child wont want to reject either religion in fear of upsetting either parent.  On the other hand it may be that the child grows up with an appreciation of both faiths.  
But, it is possible for interfaith marriages to produce good Muslim children.  It just makes the job of the Muslim parent that much harder, thats all, especially if the non-Muslim parent is actively engaging in sabotage (for example feeding the child pork when the Muslim parent is not around).  

And in any case, it is our job to teach our children in the way of Islam.  Once they are of adult age, they usually make their own choices and decisions.  We cannot force them to do anything, unless we are of the slightly dubious thinking that we can affect people's long term beliefs and behaviour through force.

This applies to families where both parents are Muslim as well as where there is mixed faith parents.  
It is the manner and content in which we communicate Islam to our children that is important, not the fact that they are being exposed to other faiths and cultures (although I do accept that this also has some effects, but why does it necessarily have to be a negative effect).

Another minor point is that divorce can take place between Muslim parents as well.  Im sure you will probably have been aware of very messy nasty divorces in your own community.  And in Western democracies the custody rights in the scenario I mentioned are generally given to the mother - the Muslim mother.  

If she neglects to guide her children in Islam, or even through bitterness to the father prevents him from access to the children and hence stops him from teaching them about Islam, then what difference is there between this and the non-Muslim mother?

Please forgive me if I've said anything that offends, and if I've made any mistakes please feel free to correct me.

[wlm]
05/19/04 at 11:46:12
Nadeem
Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
Trustworthy
05/22/04 at 01:54:32
[slm]...

Aaahhh....they're just afraid that their religion will decrease because it is the mother who raises the children and if she converts well....

But anyways...one advice to both genders, speaking from experience (not my own), when you marry a non-Muslim, make sure they have converted for atleast 2 years so that you know for sure they are sincere about their converting.  Because if you don't, this is what you'll face:

A Muslim brother I know, family, married a Christian woman.  She is not going to convert, she's Christian period.  Celebrates Christames, birthdays, Easter, goes to church, etc.  They have 2 children (boy and girl).  These kids, I really feel bad for them, because I know the girl wants to be a Muslim but the mother discourages her even though they both agreed to have the children choose their own ways.

The children come to school Fridays, Saturdays, and SUndays, but goes to church on Sundays.  They celebrate Eid and Christmas, etc.  The daughter wants to wear hijab everywhere she goes, she's 6 btw, but she tells me that when she goes shopping with mom alone, her mother pulls the scarf off.  She's afraid to tell her mother that she wants to be Muslim now and telling her father is like...well...let's just say he looooooves his wife.

It sad really.  So please make du'a for her, insha-Allah.

Ma-asalaamah...
Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
Mujahideen
05/22/04 at 02:50:02
[slm]


     I personally know a number people who left Islam when they were in their mid-twenties.  They were raised as Muslims in Muslim families – and one day they decided they did not want to be Muslim anymore. Two former Sisters and one former Brother.

     I personally know of only one convert whk apostated  after about 3 years.

     I don’t see the value in placing arbitrary time limits on limiting marriage to converts  - it just does not make any sense.

     One ought to simply judge the Brother or Sister on an individual basis and see how strong they are in their understanding and practice of the Deen. How much do they know, how well established is their practice,  do they seem comfortable in their Deen?

     I know of converts who take years to become comfortable. However I  also know converts who after a few months in the Deen; know more, practice more and have a far better hold of their Deen then many who have been Muslim for 40 years.
Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
Trustworthy
05/22/04 at 20:39:20
[slm]...

That's true and I agree, however, that was the point I was trying to make which is if you let them be Muslim for atleast 2 years, then you would find out how sincere that person is in wanting to be a Muslim.

If they can't wait for you for 2 years, then you know their intentions (cause sometimes that's the only reason why they are converting, is just to be with you. And that is wrong.)

I think there is a hadith somewhere where it states 2 - 3 years.  

Ma-asalaamah....
Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
humble_muslim
05/24/04 at 18:23:34
AA

Well there's many cases where for some reason, "muslim" men marry non-muslim women for the wrong reasons, and then down the road this leads to custody disputes, kids getting "kidnapped" by their fathers, etc.  Yes, it happens, and it does nothing but to leave a stain on Islam.

My personal advice to any Christian women is DON'T marry a muslim man.  I hate to say this, but there's some truth in what the Vatican is saying.
NS
Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
Mujahideen
05/25/04 at 03:31:18
[slm]

     

     I know of no evidence to support such a position (of waiting two to three years before marriage after conversion) on a Fiqh basis, but then again I don’t know much.

Would you be able to provide a reference for this Hadith  so we can check a classical commentary to see how it has been understood within our Deen?

     Its sounds very illogical to conclude that because someone is unwilling to wait two years after they convert to marry they have bad intentions. Ascribing intentions to peoples actions is not something well supported within our Deen from my understanding.
Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
peaceman04
05/26/04 at 05:09:59
RE:"I thought Catholics could only marry other Catholics.  I've seen a lot of non-Catholics who have to go through a barrage of classes in order to convert before marrying.  I'm sure there are people here who no better who will correct me if I'm wrong."


Catholics cannot be married to a non-Catholic in a Church by a priest. The non-Catholic "going through a barrage of classes" was probably working to be confirmed. Even if you're Catholic you must be confirmed before being allowed to be married in a Catholic church by a priest. Otherwise you just do it with a justtice of the peace or judge or someone with legal authority to wed the couple. Pretty sure thats right anyway.
Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
se7en
05/30/04 at 16:08:44
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Most children I know who have grown up in a Muslim + Non-Muslim household have had some serious problems with identity and faith.  An appeal to the brothers out there: don't put your children through that.  It's hard enough growing up Muslim in the world today.. don't impose an additional challenge on your children.  I know way too many people who say "well, I'm not really Muslim.. I'm half Muslim, my Dad was Muslim, but I don't really know or follow anything."

Also, I have to say that I don't know if I can really condemn the Vatican for this message.  I acknowledge that such relationships can be good and pure and true, and they can be a manifestation of two people feeling compatability and connection to each other.. but a lot of times, I just have to wonder.

I met a sister who took shahada last Saturday (walhamdulillah :)), and she has already had a number of  guys (some 20 years older than her) trying to marry her.. bro's who don't know anything about her, her family, her character, her interests, or her faith!  Why exactly are they interested?  I wouldn't be surprised if these were the same brothers who, ten years down the line, are having custody disputes, are complaining about the evils of American women and American society, and are writing hateful things like that "American Woman vs. Brown Woman" post.    

It seems to me sometimes that some brothers have a fascination with white American women.  Is it internalized oppression borne out of colonization?  A desire to conform and be accepted in this society?  hmmm...
05/30/04 at 19:00:23
se7en
Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
Anonymous
06/02/04 at 03:06:19
Most of the sisters I have met have left me with the impression that they are
doing a favor by marrying you, that you are an impediment to their deen and they are
actually pressurized to get married because of societal and family concerns and this is
reinforced by telling you repeated horror stories that this man was cruel to his wife that man
didn’t allow her to go any where
 
Well from what I have heard from them they want you to work because that’s your
responsibility, clean the house do the laundry and eat out or cook while all they want to do is
attend the halaqah at the local masjid . Ask them what they bring to a marriage and they
are clueless.

So if  married life with the sisters is going to be like this then why not marry a  non
Muslim woman from the ahle kitaab where at least you do just half the work and contribute
half towards the family finances while she takes care of her half of the stuff  
?????????????????????????

Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
jannah
06/02/04 at 03:33:51
[slm]

anonymous, if you feel you can have a successful marriage that is beneficial for you, your deen and your children by marrying a non-Muslim, go for it. i'm sure there are cases where it may work out well, but i can give you 5-10 examples of people i know *personally* where it hasn't worked at all or been disasterous and negative. so i think you'd have to weigh everything and think about it carefully before making your decision.

as for the rest of your post, it sounds like you've been through some bitter experiences. but most, if not all the sisters i know want to get married for the same reasons everyone else does! to have a family, have a close relationship with someone..live half their deen, to experience marriage, to love and be loved! isn't that what makes the world go round? why shouldn't everyone want to get married unless they have some exceptional reasons not to? why condemn that and say its societal or familial?

i'll even take it an unlikely step further and say that if a sister solely wanted to get married because of societal or familial reasons, then what is wrong with even that?

it's quite ordinary for sisters (and brothers!) to have that fear that their goals in life will be hindered by their future spouse. it's something to seriously consider and discuss before marriage so both can agree on the future and trust one another.

as for ykur "clean the house do the laundry and eat out or cook while all they want to do is attend the halaqah at the local masjid" all i can do is just shake my head..

why can't brothers see that it's not about the "clean the house do the laundry, eat out", it really isn't. it's about a whole change of thought on what the role of woman and the wife is. to you and maybe other traditionalists a wife not cleaning the house, not doing the laundry or eating out is anathema, it's positively evil and wrong, because that is what the role of wife is, and she isn't doing it, so in the end they ask themselves why does she want to get married then!?

well in the end i think that those who think alike and have the same goals are more successful in marriage. so those who see certain values and roles as most important should marry those who think likewise.

btw what exactly does "Ask them what they bring to a marriage and they  
are clueless." mean?? If any prospective person asked me that I'd be offended. What do they expect me to say? "I'm bringing X amount of money, this furniture, I'll iron your shirts every morning. I'll cook and clean." That's not marriage.. it's an exchange of goods and services. (No doubt some people have the opinion that this is what marriage is about)

But to me marriage is two people committing themselves to God and to each other. They are in it together as companions for life, supporting each other, educating each other, helping one another through this life to a good end in the Hereafter. Obviously if they love each other, both will contribute to the home in different ways. How they divide up the their household chores or Islamic learning is up to them between their own four walls. A marriage is full of compromise, sacrifice and understanding. I personally don't feel comfortable with restricting it to certain (stereotypical) set roles but others might. I'm just saying, marriage should not be carried out as if it was a negotiation business deal.
06/02/04 at 04:07:35
jannah
Re: Vatican to Muslims: Hands off our women
Nadeem
06/02/04 at 06:51:31
[slm]

Brother,

Interesting post.  I would like to address a few of the points raised if you would permit me.

There is nothing wrong [i]per se[/i], to my understanding, from a Muslim brother marrying non-Muslim women from Ahl-e-Kitaab (People's of the Book i.e. Jews and Christians).  It is clearly a contentious issue, but I think that if it was to be banned, Quran would have banned it.

However, there are inherent difficulties present with such a situation such as raising of children and freedom to practice the respective religions.  I also know of several instances where it hasn't worked out and where everyone has suffered, children are confused, bad blood between husband and wife, etc.  

Having said that, like jannah has pointed out (I think?) there are some cases of mixed-faith marriage working out, (I know of 2 personally myself).  I think it depends more on the individual circumstances.  This is why, to my understanding, scholars have left this issue open, some scholars citing proviso's.

HOWEVER, to somehow blame Muslimahs' attitudes as the reason for wanting or choosing a non-Muslim wife is (forgive me, Brother :)) quite ludicrous.
As I see it, the basis of choosing a prospective wife/husband shouldnt be based on this way of thinking.

I suspect that it seems you have had some bad experience in the past which may have coloured your view of this subject.  I think I understand what you are trying to say but I feel you may be viewing it from a slightly distorted perception.  It is sometimes confusing when we are told as men that we are responsible for providing for our families, but then we are told we must do housework aswell to give women their "rights".

I put it to you Brother, that we provide for our family, because our family has to eat.  And we do the housework because house is dirty/dishes need cleaning/clothes need washing,etc.  And not for any other reason.  The way the division of labour is administered is individual family's decisons. We need to get out of our thinking that this is mans job, this is womans job.

Man should provide for his family, especially financially (if possible) in Quran.  It is his responsibility.  Woman is not obliged to contribute financially at all.  This is her right.  In my view these are guidelines.  But a woman or man who stuck to this rigidly, when they can clearly see the other partner is suffering under the pressure, would indeed be coldhearted.  There would be problems here anyway, and not because she's a Muslimah demanding her "rights" or a non-Muslim women "telling it like it is". Surely its a matter of common sense and compassion for one's husband/wife?

Brother, not all people are the same.  Not all women are the same.  Not all men are the same.  Not all Muslimahs are the same.  Not all non-Muslim women are the same. Not all Muslims are the same.

Choose a spouse based on your individual circumstances, your personal judgment, the effect it may/may not have on your ability to be in Islam, not out of hurt from some Muslimahs' comments.

I pray that you rethink your view, and that Allah guide you to a loving wife that complements you, inshallah.  :)

If I sounded harsh or have said anything incorrect please forgive me. ;-)

[wlm]

06/02/04 at 09:47:34
Nadeem


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