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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
Non-patriarchal interpretations of the Quran |
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merimda |
05/19/04 at 00:55:00 |
Salam, I know many srs who are utterly frustrated with the chauvinistic and misogynist tendencies in the Muslim community. When they try to stand up for their rights in Islam they are silenced not only by the men but also women. It upsets them to see so many Muslim women vehemently and blindly support and justify interpretations of Islam that encourage these tendencies. They are also tired of constantly having men dictate what an ideal or good Muslima should be like. I know of a couple of srs who are really good people at heart but are experiencing a lot of confusion and doubt and have even taken off the hijab because they have been so turned off at the ill treatment and disrespect women get in our communities and in modern day Islamic interpretations. So I’m wondering if anyone can recommend some good works out there that would give them some hope. These sisters are very intellectual so it would have to be something at their level. I was wondering about Amina Wadud and others who have put forward a non-patriarchal interpretation of the Quran. JAK salam, meri |
05/19/04 at 00:57:24 |
merimda |
Re: Non-patriarchal interpretations of the Quran |
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superFOB |
05/19/04 at 04:52:39 |
[slm] Who is Amina Wadud and what are her qualifications? I ask this because writing a tafsir of the quran is supposed to be the most difficult task in Islamic sciences. |
05/19/04 at 04:53:13 |
superFOB |
Re: Non-patriarchal interpretations of the Quran |
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Maliha |
05/19/04 at 09:14:15 |
[slm] Nice to see ya post sis merimda:) i pray you and your family are doing great Inshaallah. There is one site that i highly recommend with different intellectual essays on women: "http://www.muslimwomenstudies.com" There are couple good reads out there: "Women, Muslim Society And Islam" by Lamya Al Faruqi (she deconstructs feminism as understood in the west and re explains it in Islamic terms) "Quran and Women" by Amina Wadud The above two are not necessarily tafsirs in the original sense, but some thoughts on the Quranic worldview and deal with the controversial issues..the only thing about both of them is they raise some questions about the form/definition of hijab. Now if someone is already having issues with hijab this may not help, but the other points they raise are really good... Here's a good intellectual piece that breaks down the Hijab issue: "Rethinking Muslim women and the veil: challenging historical and modern stereotypes" by Katherine Bullock. "Women and Islam: The western Experience" Anne Sofie Roald (deals with reflections on different women issues). If they read Arabic the following book is a *must*: "Qadhayal Mara'a: bayna Taqalidal Rakida wal Wafida" by Muhammad Al Ghazali..He writes spoken arabic (not scholarly) therefore even someone like me, who normally gets lost in scholarly texts, could understand his language and style. He is very sarcastic and wry in this work, but he raises a *lot* of good points and dismantles a lot of hadiths that have been fabricated about women (having been cited by Ibn Jawzi before him in his work the "mawdhu3at"). He explores all the relevant controversial issues: from travel, to her position, status, etc. The above are not necessarily exegesis for the Quran, but they all bring up relevant issues and discuss them when they come to women, without being too far leaning on feminism. There is one more that talks about "Women in the Quran" and the different figures/ Maryam (AS), Bilquis etc...but i can't remember the title/or author :) Inshaallah i will look it up. [wlm] |
Re: Non-patriarchal interpretations of the Quran |
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Nistar |
05/19/04 at 11:08:56 |
[slm]! I would recommend the following: "Qur'an and woman: rereading the sacred text from a woman's perspective" by Amina Wadud. "Beyond the veil: male-female dynamics in modern Muslim society." by Fatima Mernissi. "Medicines of the Soul: Female Bodies and Sacred Geographies in a Transnational Islam" by Fedwa Malti-Douglas. A collection of three Arab women's lives and their various struggles with a variety of topics -- coming back to Islam, finding space for themselves spiritually, breast cancer, modernity, becoming a voice for other women, etc. "Qurán, liberation & pluralism : an Islamic perspective of interreligious solidarity against oppression" by Farid Esack. He has an interesting illustration where he likens the maltreatment of blacks by whites in Africa during Apartheid, to how many men in our community treat women -- particularilly regarding women's space in the mosque. I would also highly recommend reading (hehe...perhaps re-reading) Jefferey Lang's chapter on women in his book "Struggling To Surrender." He's been fighting avidly for women in the community -- and this chapter provides a balanced critique of both traditional and less traditional positions on women in Islam. [wlm] wa fee aman'Allah, Nistar. |
Re: Non-patriarchal interpretations of the Quran |
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superFOB |
05/19/04 at 20:58:29 |
[slm] Merimda: I think those women have a basic problem, and I believe its an absence of submission. How effective would islamo-feminist readings be in this situation is anybody's guess. Nur: Ima step on MANY toes! On your recommendation I visited www.muslimwomenstudies.com The website is poorly laid out, but I suppressed that technical bias. At first I struggled to make sense of the order of the hodge-podge, which is essentially a grab-bag o essays. Failing to untangle that, I jumped in and started reading random articles. Armed with my usual cynicism--I'll kick the bucket early it seems--I started wading through dense philosophical material, till smoke started coming out of my ears. Here are some choice paragraphs: [quote]Overcoming the Civilizational Impasse : Towards Rethinking Culture, Renewing the Academy Philosophy is the way of reason to the truth and science is its pursuit and application to this world. The moment they become objects for man's adoration, philosophia or scientia perennis, and scientism, and the moment they assume different incarnations of the Golden Calf, then man stumbles and slips. Autonomous human reason, its instruments and its products, all become substitutes for religion and morality in certain cases as when we refer to ideologies, or they become sources for such secular or civil religions in others, as when the belief in constitutionalism for example might not be an ideology in itself, but bespeaks of one. In all such cases, the source and center of human life is marginalized and lost. In its place, illusions multiply under the reign of alternating creeds that reduce to misfounded variants of humanism and naturalism. Under that delusive reign all possibilities of reigning in the impulses that drive to social disorder and human perdition recede. The greatest boon to man and human civilization, reason and its accoutrements, is subverted into the greatest bane to both. The potion that cures becomes the deadly chalice. The pathway to destruction in this world and perdition in the Next is strewn with golden chalices that have survived the generations they have duped and continue to entice those who blindly follow.[/quote] [quote]UNDERSTANDING GENDER IN MUSLIM SOCIETIES There are other factors which constrain the current paradigm of inquiry into gender in Muslim societies and which make it objectionable from an Islamic point of view. It is a paradigm which assumes a positivistic conception of society. From an Islamic perspective, this is not only a reductionist conception, but it is a distorted view which makes it impossible to grapple with the effective dimensions of the community, any community, and particularly the community as it is ideally perceived and as it is developed historically in Muslim societies. In these societies, despite a rampantly materialistic and agnostic age which affects every one, a major part of individual and social life still continues to respond to the transcendental. In the absence of a paradigm of inquiry which can accommodate transcendence( IE. THE PARADIGM OF MODERNITY?) within its matrix of social inquiry, many of the social and cultural realities of such a society are missed.[/quote] [quote]THE QUEST FOR AN ALTERNATIVE (2) Grounds validating a Quest (c) The New Sociology plugs into an emerging stream of radical inquiry and reflection among Muslims who while intellectually critical of aspects of their society and tradition, are not alienated from either. They are part of what is sometimes referred to as the Islamic intellectual revival. Individually and collectively, their efforts are steadily verging on a regenerate and reconstructed knowledge tradition that has its theoretical and practical implications for our current understanding of culture and society more generally. The gender-conscious New Sociology feeds into and draws on the elements of a New Anthropology (Davies, 1988) and a New Science and Technology (Sardar et al. 1987, 1989) and a general disposition to rethinking the dominant historical and International Order categories.[/quote] Now these are not odd occurences, the website is chock-full of similar stuff. Paragraph after paragraph, page after page, article after article is bursting at the seams with same type of over inflation. The fluff factor is dangerously high, I'd put it around 0.7 normalized. What does this highfalutin gobbledegook means? Never in my life have I gone through such deliberate obfuscation, unless you count obfuscated code. One thing I have learned, in my short life span, is that a good idea or a good design is always amazingly simple, its beauty lies in the inherent simplicity. I was really looking forward to some quality stuff, but unable to digest a paragraph in a reasonable amount of time made me lose my patience. To be fair to these people, they might be on to something and they might be sincere in their pursuit. But, if these folks believe that emancipation of muslim women is going to come through the imcomprehensible gibberish they churn out, they are delusional. |
Re: Non-patriarchal interpretations of the Quran |
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Maliha |
05/20/04 at 06:47:57 |
[slm] Astaghfirullah brother superfob... may I ask what it is that truly bothers you about that site? or the work that is currently being done to *deconstruct* (which means breakdown) the philosophical framework (which means the underlying assumptions) of the west, in order to build up an alternative Islamic philosophical framework (look above). If you don't know, currently in the western literature, there is *a lot* of work being done, by other westerners, who are rejecting the philosophy that the west is based on. The whole assumption that the "scientific" way is the right way, is being dissed by many voices: diversity/cultural studies voices, postmodernist voices, humanist voices etc. Very few Muslim thinkers are on that scene, but Alhamdullillah, some effort is being made. Have you read any Muslim philosophers of the past? Have you read any philosophy book period? Have you read any sociology work or for that matter any liberal arts work at all? Because that language is common to all those circles. a good writer, knows her/his audience. If you a daie'e speaking to the masses, you will talk like Muhammad Al Ghazali or even others I mentioned above. If you are talking to academia, you will look really dumb, dumbing down your language. The reason I pointed out this site to Merimda, is she mentioned her friends were intellectual; and i figured they might enjoy reading the above. Honestly, i am far from an intellectual, but i enjoy her writing as well, especially knowing the background and debates going on in academic circles right now. as for the technical layout maybe you can volunteer to help them in this area? i really don't understand; why did you feel the need to diss so bad ??? May Allah guide us all, and implant in our hearts the beautiful Rahma that inclines us to each other and not unnecessary schisms (amin). [wlm] |
05/20/04 at 07:39:42 |
Maliha |
Re: Non-patriarchal interpretations of the Quran |
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Mujahideen |
05/22/04 at 03:18:51 |
[slm] While I totally agree that often our dear Brothers often oppress our beloved Sisters in the name of Islam I think we do need to be a little careful in our response to such acts; some of the material that has been published in response to this mistreatment is not much better in that it also deviates from the Sunnah. I really think that Sisters have to ensure that they know their rights in Islam and then also ensure that they are being given them. Often sisters don’t really understand their rights very well and more often even if they do they will not stand up for themselves (I don’t mean that Brothers should not help – they indeed should but Sisters need to begin to advocate for themselves enmass). I have seen it many times in the community where a Brother will try to prevent a Sister from doing something she may do according to valid Fiqh positions and the Sister will just totally back down. I think a lot of the common material circulating in mosques and many bookstores also paints a very skewed picture of the rights and responsibilities of women so its not surprising that many Sisters do not fully understand their rights. Much of it seems to be aligned with the Saudi-Arab cultural understanding of the role of women in society – all other understandings within our tradition are not represented well in literature and even actively suppressed. Most English language material is highly biased in my opinion – narrow opinions presented as the only opinions on issues, no classical commentary, classical opinions held by great scholars are disregarded, etc… A good English language resource on the matter is http://www.rumibookstore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=rumibookstore&Product_Code=genderrelations&Category_Code=productions1 [img] http://www.rumibookstore.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/gendercd2.jpg[/img] it will provide a very different understanding on many of the issues compared to the understandings publishers like Dar-Us-Salam put forth; and its all rooted in Qur’an and Sunnah as understood by some of the greatest scholars within our history. |
Re: Non-patriarchal interpretations of the Quran |
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superFOB |
05/23/04 at 01:27:01 |
[slm] [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=lighthouse;num=1084938900;start=0#5 date=05/20/04 at 06:47:57]may I ask what it is that truly bothers you about that site? or the work that is currently being done to *deconstruct* (which means breakdown) the philosophical framework (which means the underlying assumptions) of the west, in order to build up an alternative Islamic philosophical framework (look above).[/quote] What bothers me is their fixation with deconstructing the so called patriarchical intrepetations and influences. This is nothing but a knee-jerk reaction to the vicious propaganda of the feminists. Any meaningful reform in this reqard will have to come from the 'ulama not from a group mostly trained in secular thought. Take Amina Wudud for instance, I found her work mostly noticeable because of its shock value. She is not an 'aalim, not a hafiz even (please correct me if I am wrong), and she has a commentary on Quran! Its just my opinion based on her work widely available on the web, I am not labeling her a kafir or a deviant btw. [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=lighthouse;num=1084938900;start=0#5 date=05/20/04 at 06:47:57]Very few Muslim thinkers are on that scene, but Alhamdullillah, some effort is being made. Have you read any Muslim philosophers of the past? Have you read any philosophy book period? Have you read any sociology work or for that matter any liberal arts work at all? Because that language is common to all those circles.[/quote] Would it matter if I had? I knew that someone's going to use this argument. A visit to the website of the royal institute of philosophy would do you some good. Please take a look at their material and the language they use. [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=lighthouse;num=1084938900;start=0#5 date=05/20/04 at 06:47:57]a good writer, knows her/his audience. If you a daie'e speaking to the masses, you will talk like Muhammad Al Ghazali or even others I mentioned above. If you are talking to academia, you will look really dumb, dumbing down your language.[/quote] Um, I don't think I am dumb, judging from real people's opinion. You don't know where I am coming from, which is ok, since I didn't tell. Its in my routine to go through dense research and technical material and I can tell fluff from concrete. [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=lighthouse;num=1084938900;start=0#5 date=05/20/04 at 06:47:57]The reason I pointed out this site to Merimda, is she mentioned her friends were intellectual; and i figured they might enjoy reading the above. Honestly, i am far from an intellectual, but i enjoy her writing as well, especially knowing the background and debates going on in academic circles right now.[/quote] How this "stuff" is going to help a doubter is beyond me. [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=lighthouse;num=1084938900;start=0#5 date=05/20/04 at 06:47:57]as for the technical layout maybe you can volunteer to help them in this area?[/quote] Sure, I can cook up a website faster then it takes me to write a reply on this board. But who would train the bunch? Who would maintain the website? Why do you think I have time to do all that? Or are you accusing me of being lazy just because I am posting on this board. Why do I have a strong sense of deja vu? [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=lighthouse;num=1084938900;start=0#5 date=05/20/04 at 06:47:57]i really don't understand; why did you feel the need to diss so bad[/quote] When one is in the business of cut throat research (which is exactly what these folks are doing) one should be able to withstand criticism. Would it be better if some atheist came and "deconstructed the deconstruction"? My comments were much milder then any other outside critcism. [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=lighthouse;num=1084938900;start=0#5 date=05/20/04 at 06:47:57]May Allah guide us all, and implant in our hearts the beautiful Rahma that inclines us to each other and not unnecessary schisms (amin).[/quote] What are you talking about? What schisms? What is so wrong with critcism? Have I labeled them kafirs or deviants? I am not condemning the general direction. They have a problem with presentation and content and hiding behind the principles of brotherhood is not helping at all. When are we going to learn to weather criticism? Right now, it seems, our only defense are emotional tirades instead of cogent arguments. Btw, no hard feelings, I enjoy your posts. |
05/23/04 at 01:30:56 |
superFOB |
Re: Non-patriarchal interpretations of the Quran |
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Maliha |
05/23/04 at 07:20:02 |
[slm] sigh..this is my last take on this, and i am only writing a reply, despite my better judgement, because you are obviously speaking from a place of ignorance, and I would like to clear this up for any onlooker who may have some confusion. First Amina Wadud is not part of the Muslim women studies group. Secondly she has a background in Islamic studies, third she is a Muslim woman. Fourth, in her methodology which she states in her book she does consult other sources. That said she has *many* issues, that have to be dealt with on a scholarly level and not a reactionary way. The point is, she and others, are representing a real need for clarification and true understanding; not simply marginalization. Second main point, the mission of the site (which is not related to Amina Wadud) and those people working on it, is precisely to move away from feminist interpretation and away from the other extreme of women suppression and develop from the ground up a Quranic understanding of women, based on verified traditional sources and Quranic interpretations. The people heading it, have and are working with a group of Ulamah, one of whom studied at Azhar for over 50 years. Why would you wrongly assume they are working alone? or *against* men for that matter? The emphasis on all their work is to rightfully place a woman, in her family, her Ummah, her society, from a position of knowledge, integrity and respect that does *not* come from "liberating" her as an individual and breaking her family and society in the process. My brother, what authority do you have to judge the work as either being "fluff" or concrete based on reading technical research manuals? I did not accuse you of being lazy, or anything, as a matter of fact I didn't accuse you period. Third, this was a response to Merimda's question...if you don't think *many* muslim women are being turned away from Islam, due to the literature, perceptions and ignorance that's out there, than you are truly mistaken my brother. The few women who are trying to do something about it, are being shot down faster than they can breathe. There is a true need to understand, define, and present the Muslim woman as the empowered, enobled woman; the immense blessing bestowed on her by Divine dictates; to reclaim her rightful place besides the giant shadows of Khadija (RA), Aisha (RA), Fatima (RA), etc. From an academic standpoint, in order to build a concept, you start from theory, you break down the current theories, build a proper framework to understand, in Islamic studies it is called laying down the Tawheedic epistemology. Once you have this true grounding, you begin formulating your ideas....all concepts and ideas, start from here. Then it takes educating the masses in a language they understand to break down and rebuild their understanding...everyone has their place and their own Jihad. Those who work with the masses deal with them a certain way..those who work in academic circles deal with other sets of issues and problems (and here is the language part. I don't understand why you are making a big deal out of it; when I write a research paper to turn in for my professor, I employ a certain language. When i write on the board i employ a different language. when i write poetry i talk a different language. Am I wrong to judge my audience and speak to them in ways I think they understand best? Isn't that what the Rasul [saw] in all his wisdom employed? Also, they are dealing with debates from feminists and other secular scholars, and they are responding and critiquing as well...) To say Islam has no place in institutionalized thought, is to discredit all the giant scholars of the past like Ibn Khaldun, Ghazali, Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd (RA) and the rest who discussed theories and laid down true foundations for what it means to do research and develop ideas from an Islamic perspective. superfob, i am not interested in discussing this further on this board. From your perspective I would suggest please hold your peace, understand what is truly going on before you try to discredit sincere Muslims who are trying to do legitimate work. Just because its about "women" does not equate to feminism or any knee jerk reaction you might have had at the very idea. Besides this post is dedicated to finding resources for struggling women in this deen, maybe you can offer other sources that might help these sisters? May Allah guide us all (Amin). If I said anything offensive, may Allah forgive me for my shortcomings...all that been said ; i don't identify with any of those voices above, but i do recognize the frustration they are coming from and dealing with. [wlm] |
05/23/04 at 09:48:45 |
Maliha |
Re: Non-patriarchal interpretations of the Quran |
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jannah |
05/23/04 at 15:25:57 |
[wlm] u know i've noticed some brothers have a knee-jerk reaction when they hear a woman's name who has written a book or brought up some ideas. yet if i mentioned abdullah adhami or jamal badawi or even qaradawi or muhammad ghazali they are all fine, even though these men are all doing the same work and have very similar writings as some of these women!! they both are bringing up new ideas of relevance to the age we live in, pointing out some true sunnahs we have ignored and basically reviving the deen. granted, i know it's a reaction to hearing that some women authors like fatima mernissi are anti hijab and thus ignoring everything else she says. but really, we need to start listening to what these people are saying before we judge them. |
Re: Non-patriarchal interpretations of the Quran |
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timbuktu |
05/23/04 at 21:24:54 |
[slm] While my vocabulary is simple, and most of the academic talk in the liberal and social sciences goes over my head, I think the points raised by these women scholars/ writers do need to be addressed, and perhaps more important, they do need to be listened to. and sis Nur has made a very valid point that the language one employs should be suited to the redaership. In fact this thread has been very educational, because sis Nur has clarified some misgivings. Jumping on people for their views does not solve problems. Many in the muslim-majority areas are ignorant of even the basic requirements of Islam. In the West, where the society says religion/ faith is a private matter, and the pursuit of happiness in this world is what counts, there is a trend away from Islam, and that should be worrying. This is now happening in the muslim-majority areas as well. I said sometime back that a new Muatizilla has been born. We should not ignore or persecute it. We should learn their tools of analysis, and expose their fallacies. By we, I mean our scholars, and perhaps some of us can assist in that. |
Re: Non-patriarchal interpretations of the Quran |
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superFOB |
05/24/04 at 00:38:27 |
[slm] Nur: It is quite evident that, contrary to your posts, you can't stomach anything but a conforming opinion. And what was that gibe about research manuals? There is no such animal sister, only if you knew better. I don't know how you came up with that, but certainly you had NO idea what you were talking about, neither you have ANY clue about research being done in other disciplines. You didn't answer any of the concerns I raised, which is what I expected. You have added nothing new except repeating what you said earlier, albeit with embellishments. For that, the most I can do is to commend you on your language skills. Isn't that strange that you are so doggedly defending a group when there seems no immediate benefit to you? Are you part of that group? The implicit message that these people should be above critcism is unacceptable. Its about time that we kick the priveleged classes out. Btw, comparing these people with the likes of ibn khaldun is simply preposterous. Please do not patronize me, I will speak my mind when and where I deem it appropriate, within the bounds of propriety and rules of the forum, of course. And guess what, I have a suggestion for you as well, get rid of this habit before you trip over it. Jannah and Ch. khalid: My post might have come across as a knee-jerk reaction but Nur just went way out of line with her vitriol and I didn't like it at all. |
Re: Non-patriarchal interpretations of the Quran |
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jannah |
05/24/04 at 01:00:34 |
[wlm] [color=red] wow ok people let's have a time out. let's not let a normal discussion dissolve into personal insults. as an aside superFob you do not have any idea of the qualifications of Nur to make judgements like that, nor can you assume to know her intentions or group affiliations. [/color] |
05/24/04 at 01:02:04 |
jannah |
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