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Ayah from Quran on homosexuality

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Ayah from Quran on homosexuality
Khariya
05/25/04 at 16:58:26
[slm]

Does anyone know the ayah about the punishment for homosexuality in Surah Al-Baqarah? I did a search but for some strange reason all I keep pulling up is info about Prophet Lut's(A.S) people.
Re: Ayah from Quran on homosexuality
Taalibatul_ilm
05/26/04 at 04:07:11
[slm]
Some tafseers say aayah 16 of surah An-Nisaa' (4:16) is referring to the punishment for homosexual men, but not all give the same tafseer.
If you are looking for specific punishment, you should look in the fiqh scholars opinions.
It isn't strange though that you came up with the story of Prophet Lut's people since that was their sin and they were destroyed because of it.
Re: Ayah from Quran on homosexuality
Khariya
05/26/04 at 15:37:00
[slm]

I meant it was strange that only Prophet Lut (AS)'s story kept on appearing, and not the other ayah about punishment for homosexuality. Thank you, I had thought that ayah was in Surah Baqarah.
Re: Ayah from Quran on homosexuality
Abu_Hamza
05/26/04 at 16:13:37
[slm]

I just want to point out, without condoning homosexuality in any way, that the ayah in the Qur'an is referring to punishing people who commit the act of sodomy.  If someone has homosexual desires, but suppresses those desires, he may be considered homosexual (because the term means one who is attracted to members of the same sex), but the punishment from that ayah does not necessarily apply to him until he performs the lewd act itself.

May Allah protect us all from the plots of Shaytaan.

Wallahu a'lam.
Re: Ayah from Quran on homosexuality
Khariya
05/26/04 at 16:27:33
[slm]

jazakallah khair for the info, I'm trying to explain to some non muslims the Islamic stance on homosexuality, without coming off as seeming homophobic. Its probably inevitable that they will think so, but I'm not going to water anything down to appease them, inshallah they will have the eyes to see the truth,
05/26/04 at 16:28:16
Khariya
Re: Ayah from Quran on homosexuality
Abu_Hamza
05/26/04 at 18:46:34
[slm]

Homosexuality is a disease.  Like other diseases, it has stages and reasons behind its occurrence.  There are people out there who love to kill.  That's their disease.  They take pleasure in abusing others and spilling blood.  Sometimes their behavior is shaped by the environment in which they were brought.  Sometimes there are other factors.  

Other people are addicted to pornography.  They have a disease where they cannot stop themselves from indulging in that type of behavior.  Once again, there are psychological reasons for that.  And there are cures.

Yet, if any of such people goes out and kills people and/or rapes and sexually abuses people, they are tried by law.  They are not treated as minorities whose rights must be respected and upheld.  They are criminals, because they broke the law.  And they are punished according to their circumstances which led to their crime.

Homosexuality is treated similarly in Islam.  If this disease leads a person to commit sodomy, then he has committed a crime.  And therefore, he must be tried in an Islamic court, in front of a Muslim judge.  The judge gives a Shar'ee sentence based on the circumstances of the criminal, his psychological state, his family background, and the society in which he lives in.

Therefore Islam does not condone homosexuality, nor does it condone sodomy.  It condemns them both in the strongest terms.  However, the Sharee'ah never ignores the circumstances of any criminal. And there are examples from the time of Umar where he cancelled certain hudood [legal punishments] for various crimes, because of the circumstances in which people were living in (ex. the plague).  The Sharee'ah operates within the sphere of certain objectives, and the judge must give out sentences keeping those objectives in mind.  The letter of the law is not any more important than the spirit of the law.  Both are important.

Wallahu ta'ala a'lam.

Abu Hamza
Re: Ayah from Quran on homosexuality
Khariya
05/29/04 at 00:30:18
[slm]

Mashallah thats a good explanation, I'm going to use that in my discussion. Jazakallah khair.
Re: Ayah from Quran on homosexuality
Mossy
05/30/04 at 23:18:42
Salam,

[url=http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/QA00000813.aspx]This is an interesting snippet on thoughts vs actions[/url].

With regards to the actions. It is worth bearing in mind that there has been a variance of opinion amongst the ulema as to the exact nature of liwat (sodomy with someone you are not married to) - in particular as to whether or not it constitutes as zina. This has, in turn, led to a difference of opinion as to what the punishment should be - if it's zina, the hadd punishments apply. If it is not, ta'zir punishments would come into play (for example the Hanafi view (although this can reach death in some cases)). This would seem the case given some of the inventive punishments.

For any corporal punishment however, a couple of things must be noted. First off, witnesses - if it constitutes zina, a number (four if it's counted as zina, two otherwise) are required to see the exact moment of penetration, or a non-forced confession is required. This would basically amount to public indecency if there were that many witnesses - as for the confession, in doing so the sin would be wiped out completely once the physical punishment were applied.. As happened a number of times with adulterers/fornicators who asked for punishment during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). Hence from what I can see it the punishment is based around the effect on the public good such acts have - when done in private, the results of such an action are between the perpetrator and Allah (swt).

There is also a seperate set of rules concerning lesbian activity, but the punishment for if that is seen in public is generally considered ta'zir (I believe) as no penetration can occur, ie state decides what to do with the indecent ones.

Trivia question: which groups of people (eg the people of lut) were said to have been destroyed in the qu'ran and for what sins?

ws

Mossy
Re: Ayah from Quran on homosexuality
amatullah
08/19/04 at 16:53:59
I came across something that I think might be useful for this thread for future search eventhough it may not answer the question directly.

But first I think although what Abu Hamza said that the punishment is only for comitting the sodomy is true. But we it is important to say this is just in terms of Hudud. But that we are accountable infront of Allah and will be rewarded or punished according to what we did think as well. Even if indulge in heterosexual premarital thinking it is wrong. The angels who write they know your intention. And the prophet  [saw] taught us that even eyes can commit zina. So we have to be aware and actively try to fix the impulses that are wrong inside us (whatever the cause bio or socio). Whatever it is good or bad, if we foster and nurture it, it will grow.

The Qur'an and Homosexuality: There are five references in the Qur'an which have been cited as referring to gay and lesbian behavior. Some obviously deal with effeminate men and masculine women. The two main references to homosexual behavior are:

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

Allah Most High says: "Do you approach the males of humanity, leaving the wives that Allah has created for you? But you are a people who transgress" Koran (26:165-66)

027.055 Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!

029.028-29 And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway?- and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of God if thou tellest the truth."

11:77-79

There are hadeeths (i am not sure of authenticity) though:
1) The Prophet (saws) said: (1) "Kill the one who sodomizes and the one who lets if be done to him." (Tirmidhi, a sahih (authentic) hadith)

(2) "May Allah curse him who does that Lot's people did." (Ibn Hibban, sahih (authentic))

(3) "Lesbianism by women is adultery between them." (Tabarani, sahih)"

Taken from the Reliance of the Traveller, transltaed by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, p 664-665.

also:
(4) When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes."

(5)Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: The Prophet (saws) said: A man should not look at the private parts of another man, and a woman should not look at the private parts of another woman. A man should not lie with another man without wearing lower garment under one cover; and a woman should not be lie with another woman without wearing lower garment under one cover. (Abu Dawood)

(6)Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (saws) said: A man should not lie with another man and a woman should not lie with another woman without covering their private parts except a child or a father. He also mentioned a third thing which I forgot. (Abu Dawood)


And this is from a "Muslim gay organization" source, so I would research it's truth further if i were you:

The Hanafite school (currently seen mainly in South and Eastern Asia) teaches that no physical punishment is warranted.

The Hanabalites, (widely followed in the Arab world) teach that severe punishment is warranted.

The Sha'fi school of thought (also seen in the Arab world) requires a minimum of 4 adult male witnesses before a person can be found guilty of a homosexual act.

Other resources on the topic:

http://www.islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2003/07/Article02.shtml

http://straightway.sinfree.net/resources/



Re: Ayah from Quran on homosexuality
timbuktu
08/19/04 at 18:29:11
[slm]

very useful post sis amatullah, but i have some reservation on one thing you aid:

[quote] will be rewarded or punished according to what we did think as well.[/quote]

I may be wrong, if so please correct me, but mere thoughts will not be recorded as evil deeds.

If I remember correctly: if a mumin makes an intention of doing a good deed, it is recorded as a good one; if he decides not to follow through, the good deed is erased, whereas if he intends to do a bad deed, it is not recorded until he actually commits that deed.
Re: Ayah from Quran on homosexuality
bhaloo
08/19/04 at 20:17:04
[slm]

[quote author=timbuktu link=board=madrasa;num=1085515107;start=0#9 date=08/19/04 at 18:29:11]
I may be wrong, if so please correct me, but mere thoughts will not be recorded as evil deeds.

If I remember correctly: if a mumin makes an intention of doing a good deed, it is recorded as a good one; if he decides not to follow through, the good deed is erased, whereas if he intends to do a bad deed, it is not recorded until he actually commits that deed.[/quote]

The Messenger of Allah, sallallaahu alayhe wa sallam, said that Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, says, "Allah has written down the good deeds and the bad ones. Then He explained it (by saying that) he who has intended a good deed and has not done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as a full good deed; but if he has intended it and has done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as from ten good deeds to seven hundred times, or many times over. But if he has intended a bad deed and has not done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as a full good deed, but if he has intended it and has done it, Allah writes it down as one bad deed." (Bukhari and Muslim).
Re: Ayah from Quran on homosexuality
amatullah
08/20/04 at 00:31:02
This is very true the hadeeth. I guess the punishment and reward is accountabilty that I am thinking of. But there is further to consider

Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, elaborates on man's accountability for his thoughts:

"Our thoughts can be divided into different categories:

1) the constant self-talk or idle thoughts that assail our minds and over which we have no control

2) Thoughts that we dwell on

3) Intentions that we formulate based on those thoughts.

We are not accountable for the first stage, namely the self-talk, since we have no control over it, unless we dwell on the thoughts and nurture them in our minds. We are accountable if we dwell on them. We are also accountable for the deliberate intentions that we formulate based on these thoughts."


Source: www.muslims.ca

I recommend reading tafseer ibn Katheer to this aya in surat albaqara:
(http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=7545)

Þõáú Åöä ÊõÎúÝõæÇú ãóÇ Ýöì ÕõÏõæÑößõãú Ãóæú ÊõÈúÏõæåõ íóÚúáóãúåõ Çááøóåõ æóíóÚúáóãõ ãóÇ Ýöì ÇáÓøóãóÜæóÊö æóãóÇ Ýöì ÇáÇøñÑúÖö æóÇááøóåõ Úóáóì ßõáøö ÔóìúÁò ÞóÏöíÑñ ]

(Say (O Muhammad ): "Whether you hide what is in your breasts or reveal it, Allah knows it, and He knows what is in the heavens and what is in the earth. And Allah is able to do all things) [3:29], and,

~~~
Personally, I have read many fatawa that basically say you are not allowed  if you do indulge in evil thought knowing what you are enjoying is sinful. Like it is haram to fantasize about doing wrong things. Even the eyes can commit zina, so how about your heart? which is the piece that the prophet  [saw] said if it is good then all the other parts of hte body will straighten, and vice verse. Even the fact that we are to say A3oothu billah min ashaitan arrajeem and aamant billah wa rusulih if questions about Allah arise in our minds means we do have to put a stop to certain thought patterns.

This is perhaps why we are discouraged from living alone, travelling alone, is all related to this. It is easier to encourage good thoughts and hence behaviours when you are in good company.

indulging in evil thoughts, as it has a definite effect on the personality of the individual. Scientifically proven now adays. The power of suggestion as well.

Accountable for our thoughts? yes, We must remember that our accountability does not end at not punishing us for our evil passing thoughts, but in that we rewarded for our good thoughts even if we are unable to translate them into action. Thus, even though we are not punished for our passing evil thoughts or ideas, we lose the credit, which we could so easily have earned by just positive, noble and pious thinking.

Moreover, there is a hadeeth that Allah subahanah wa ta'ala had asked angel Jibreel to destroy a certain town and he said to Allah: But there is so and so among them, a man who is up worshipping and crying at night and fasting during the days and has many charities and lots of good deeds, how can I destroy him?
Allah answered: start with him! His face didn't change for my sake (he did not forbid what is evil and command the good). Imagine! This person is destroyed for not disliking the sins enough to have an effect on himself. So how can someone really think s/he is not accountable for indulging in sinful thoughts or thinking it is part of their heart's desire. The weakest of all faith is to just dislike it in your heart. We have to start within ourselves. Allah does not change what is in us, unless we ourselves try to change it ourselves.

"In spirituality the function of the negative thoughts is to separate and create a distance between us and God... and our role is then to discipline and overcome this lower self. This has been referred to as Jihad an Nafs. The lower self has to be trained to do good, it typically resists as by becoming disciplined it is losing control. When you recognize and are consciously aware that these thoughts are from the lower self and it is trying to keep you from doing good this helps in decreasing the power of that thought over you. Because as you become aware you now also have the ability to make a choice of what you will do with it. "

“The prohibitions and allowances have been clearly specified. However, between these two limits, lie things are neither clearly prohibited nor allowed, which can create doubts in your minds. Whoever desists from the things which are not clearly prohibited, and about which he has doubts, is more likely to stay away from the clear prohibitions of the Shari`ah. While a person who does not save himself from things about which he has doubts, is more likely to cross the limits set by Allah.” (Bukhari, Kitaab al-B’yoo)

sura 8 aya 24-25
ÞÇá Çááå { íóÇ ÃóíøõåóÇ ÇáøóÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇú ÇÓúÊóÌöíÈõæÇú áöáøåö æóáöáÑøóÓõæáö ÅöÐóÇ ÏóÚóÇßõã áöãóÇ íõÍúíöíßõãú æóÇÚúáóãõæÇú Ãóäøó Çááøåó íóÍõæáõ Èóíúäó ÇáúãóÑúÁö æóÞóáúÈöåö æóÃóäøóåõ Åöáóíúåö ÊõÍúÔóÑõæäó * æóÇÊøóÞõæÇú ÝöÊúäóÉð áÇøó ÊõÕöíÈóäøó ÇáøóÐöíäó ÙóáóãõæÇú ãöäßõãú ÎóÂÕøóÉð æóÇÚúáóãõæÇú Ãóäøó Çááøåó ÔóÏöíÏõ ÇáúÚöÞóÇÈö }

24] O ye who believe! give your response to Allah and His Messenger, when He calleth you to that which will give you life; and know that Allah cometh in between a man and his heart, and that it is He to Whom ye shall (all) be gathered.

[25] And fear tumult or oppression, which affecteth not in particular (only) those of you who do wrong: and know that Allah is strict in punishment.



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