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Converting others to your "sect" ?

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Converting others to your "sect" ?
Anonymous
05/27/04 at 15:23:39
Salaamz


What does Islam say about websites like gawaher which do not let people see other side of
the picture and keep bashing ALL "other" muslim groups "than their's". Plus whenever
someone questions their beliefs in return, *few* mods there delete such threads.

Isn't it like forcing your own opinions on members especially when they dont know much
about islam and their only source of knowledge is some website out there in the cyberspace?

What does Islaam say about such people? (Not asking you guys to backbite though, just
need the ruling AND/OR your thoughts on this topic).

That said, this board is somewhat linient yet there are obvious signs that u guys impose
ur beliefs on other not so learned muslims. All the mods belonging to a certain sect
(salafi) is one big indication of that.

So again, what does islam say about such imposing of one's belief system by not letting
ppl see other side of the picture? Furthermore, what if i mention my reservations about
*some* (not all) salafi bretheren and about their attitude of working for a salafi world
rather than a plain Muslim one, would my text be allowed to pass or will be
moderated/ignored/deleted?


Hope this will post not be "moderated" and some logical answer will be sent my way.

Salaamz
- Brother who is all for Muslim unity but doesn't like the above mentioned attitude of
some.
Re: Converting others to your "sect" ?
jannah
05/27/04 at 15:42:40
wlm,

well brother you claim to be a "Brother who is all for Muslim unity", yet you are posting a very devisive claim.

first, what gave you the idea that all the mods here are "salafi"? i certainly am not, and this board is not about promoting the agenda of certain groups like salafis let alone sects! in fact, you'll notice that whenever anyone tries to do that, there are rules that curtail them.

If you actually read the constitution you would see that even bashing groups is banned on here, because this board is not about that. Posting organizational newsletters is not allowed. Even discussing groups intellectually is not allowed because as I've said over and over again they degenerate into hatred and insults.

This board is for all Muslims, on an individual basis regardless of what groups they are affiliated with. No one is here to force any opinion on anyone. We are here to help one another with our viewpoints and ideas and support. We are all Muslims. If you consider yourself something other than Muslim, whether it's a sect or group you shouldn't be on here.
There are no sects
Saam
05/27/04 at 15:53:32
[slm]

I just think its worth mentioning that the words we sometimes pick to refer to ourselves (or often the words other non-Muslims pick to refer to us) like Salafi, Wahaabi, Tablighi, Ikhwani, Hanafi, Maliki, etc etc etc are not part of our deen.  
We are all Muslims, and maybe some will follow one Imam over another, and perhaps some are focused more on one aspect than another, but all the same, we are all one Ummah.  We should not really refer to ourself as anything other than a Muslim.  Certainly, when the four Imams (may God have mercy on them) wrote their scholarly opinions, they were seeking to unify and not split up the Ummah.  Certainly reformers such as ibn Wahaab and others were also simply seeking only to help our Ummah, not to divide it.

Not to say that groups or movements are bad things at all, but I think when a person goes to the extent that he or she says "everything my group says is correct and everything someone from group X says is wrong," that that person is splitting up the Ummah.

I just think it's most important to realize that there is one Islam and one Ummah.  There are no "sects" in Islam.  But there is a bit freedom in interpretation.  However, all the same, this freedom is like the width of a street where the street is Islam.  Different scholars have always had different opinions, but they have always referred to themselves as simply Muslims, and we must recognize that.

I guess I didn't exactly answer your question, but I felt this needed to be said.  :)

[wlm]
Saam  ;-)
Re: Converting others to your "sect" ?
se7en
05/27/04 at 15:57:49
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,

I suggest that you take a look at the Madina Constitution.. it outlines what the objectives of the jannah.org board are, and it's rules.  We make the effort to be open to *legitimate* differences of opinion.  However, there are two challenges to this matter:

1.  There are some topics that are heated because of the strength of feeling and passion people have for the issue.. and so discussions about them are not fruitful..it just becomes a rumble between people who adhere to a certain position, vs. a people who adhere to another.  So, for a lot of issues, such as the zabiha meat issue, taqleed vs. ijtihaad, niqab vs. hijab, and so on, discussions are shut down pre-emptively because of the many many times this has occured in the past.  This is sometimes seen as a means of stifling freedom of expression, or neglecting important issues, when in fact it is not meant as either of these -- it is just meant to free up the board from arguments and debates that are not beneficial, and re-directing them to a different venue - like one-to-one interaction, a discussion with a scholar, or a different means by which those issues can be properly addressed.

2.  The mods and administrators themselves are human beings :)  and so they have their own personal opinions, feelings, and beliefs about various things, which are often reflected in their posts.  Last time I checked I wasn't a Salafi, nor was I affiliated with any particular group or movement.  When people ask me what kind of Muslim I am, I say:  the good kind  8)  

Something I think you should keep in mind is that a message board is not the khilafah;  it is just a message board, usually started by one individual or a handful of people, with particular objectives in mind.  If you dislike those objectives, (say for example, they include converting people to a particular mindset or opinion; or they permit continued debate about things that are established in the Shari'ah, etc) there is no harm in walking away from it altogether.  You should weigh the probable harms and benefits of your presence there, and if you feel it will be a negative experience for you, or you feel that you will be contributing to something harmful, then *walk away*.  They may be in the wrong, their policies may be unfair, but there are probably a hundred other websites like that; and a hundred other groups that are promoting incorrect ideas or doing things in the wrong way.  Instead of working reactively, criticizing these groups (which can literally consume all of your time) work proactively; leave those people behind, find people who share your goals and objectives, and work with them to achieve something beneficial.

take khayr,

wasalaamu alaykum :)
05/27/04 at 16:11:51
se7en
Re: Converting others to your "sect" ?
Trustworthy
05/27/04 at 16:48:26
[slm]...

Speaking from experience.  I’ve visited many online communities, 5 Muslim ones (not including this one), and they were created by Muslims I’ve never meet and only knew via other communities.  One developer is kind of like me, passionate about Islam, but allows other views and members who aren’t Muslim to join and voice out.  Bans those who break the rules like bash not disagree but BASH Islam.  I’ve had a few heated post/thread battles with these kind of people.  One of them even closed down 2 of the communities because he thought that they were unfair to the Jewish faith.  This same person closed down 2 non-Muslim communities because of the same thing.  And one Muslim community asked me to ban myself from them because I argued with their views on suicide bombings/martyr bombs.  Some were really good debate communities but then I left them ALL because I needed peace of mind so now I only come here when I want to get into it.

Anyways…to answer your question:  the Qur’an emphasizes over and over again that we are one Ummah, one community.  We were divided into NATIONS and TRIBES to know one another, not to conquer one another.  Allah (SWT) does not say that we are to be divided into other Islamic faiths because then it becomes something like Christianity having 313 sects.  But because we were created with free will, one of the signs of Judgement Day coming is that Islam will have 73 or 75 different sects.  Sects cause divisions with similar yet different beliefs.  And if you think about it, how can one Qur’an that’s never been tampered with have different Muslim belief systems?  That’s where you get culture/tradition mixed in with religion or desires mixed in with religion.  Even though we have all these divisions, all the answers are the same and in the Qur’an, and that my friend, will never change.

I don’t recall anyone here ever calling themselves this kind of Muslim or that kind.  We call ourselves Muslims and if you ask me which kind…I’d have to tell you the kind that Submits to Allah (SWT) and follow the Qur’an.  There is no verse in the Qur’an that says this Muslim sect or that Muslim sect or we are this Muslim sect.  I understand your grief, but you have to understand you can’t change someone else’s free will.  

And this community is a peace of mind.  Opinions are allowed but because we care about each other we adhere to the constitution where we avoid debates that are beyond our understanding no matter how well you think you understand it.  I’m passionate sometimes when it comes to issues on here, but I don’t force my opinions on others.   And really that’s all it is, an OPINION.  No one has the right to create a “law” that really has no authority cause the only authority is Allah (SWT).  

Hope this helps.

Ma-asalaamah…..
Re: Converting others to your "sect" ?
Nadeem
05/27/04 at 17:36:44
[slm]

What's a salafi?

And why are you anonymous?

[wlm]
Re: Converting others to your "sect" ?
bhaloo
05/28/04 at 01:45:11
[slm]

[quote author=Nadeem link=board=madrasa;num=1085682219;start=0#5 date=05/27/04 at 17:36:44]
And why are you anonymous?
[/quote]

Excellent point, brother Nadeem

As to anonymous, first this person slanders some other website and attacks their board, and then he attacks the people here, how shameful, and how convenient he does it under the disguise of being anonymous.  Alhumdullilah we have people like this in the world that want to slander us, they help make our path to jannah easier at their expense.   Jazak Allah khairen.

As Se7en said, "We make the effort to be open to *legitimate* differences of opinion.".  
Re: Converting others to your "sect" ?
Trustworthy
05/28/04 at 19:50:51
[slm]...

oh dear...i really do have trouble reading into some posts.  At first i was upset at the fact that he assumed because you know what happens if you assume right?  It makes an *** out of U and ME, but not me.  Then again I thought i should give this BROTHER the benefit of the doubt right?  So i bit my tongue (which really hurt) cause didn't want to go over board and responded decently so i hoped.

are we wrong about you brother?  yeah what is a salafi?

Ma-asalaamah...
05/28/04 at 19:52:01
Trustworthy
Re: Converting others to your "sect" ?
georger
05/28/04 at 21:17:59
[quote author=Anonymous link=board=madrasa;num=1085682219;start=0#0 date=05/27/04 at 15:23:39]Salaamz

What does Islam say about websites like gawaher which do not let people see other side of the picture and keep bashing ALL "other" muslim groups "than their's". Plus whenever someone questions their beliefs in return, *few* mods there delete such threads.

Isn't it like forcing your own opinions on members especially when they dont know much about islam and their only source of knowledge is some website out there in the cyberspace?

What does Islaam say about such people? (Not asking you guys to backbite though, just need the ruling AND/OR your thoughts on this topic).

That said, this board is somewhat linient yet there are obvious signs that u guys impose ur beliefs on other not so learned muslims. All the mods belonging to a certain sect (salafi) is one big indication of that.

So again, what does islam say about such imposing of one's belief system by not letting ppl see other side of the picture? Furthermore, what if i mention my reservations about *some* (not all) salafi bretheren and about their attitude of working for a salafi world rather than a plain Muslim one, would my text be allowed to pass or will be moderated/ignored/deleted?

Hope this will post not be "moderated" and some logical answer will be sent my way.

Salaamz
- Brother who is all for Muslim unity but doesn't like the above mentioned attitude of some.
[/quote]

I'm sorry.....I do feel this is a very honest and forthright question. It could have been asked by anyone. And if I would have and respect the truth, if I should speak it just as fearlessly and respectfully, if I should fear the anger of God and not the anger of men, this question deserves an answer, as honestly and respectfully as possible, because there is something to be said on this topic.

This is just my 2¢ worth, my experience. And I would not ever want to imply that what I've experienced and observed IS the experience of everyone everywhere.

I'm an observer as well as a seeker. Speaking as a relative newcomer to Islam (December of Nineteen Ninety-Eight), I have certainly observed the traits this person has illustrated in many of the men I've met who've called themselves Muslim in the greater Toronto area. Not all of course - just many.

Considering how utterly inspiring and touching the Quran truly is, how it inspires the human pulse and raises the consciousness, this dichotomy comes as a vicious slap in the face.

Perhaps these men know the rituals and rites......I never claim to know anything because instructing me in Arabic is completely useless....it might as well be in Chinese because it is so utterly distant to my understanding.

Of the men I've met who call themselves Muslims, a great many have seen fit to, in the name of belief in the Quran and God, try and reform newcomers to Islam in their own image and vision, instead of accepting the person as they are, and getting to know them and how they can believe.

The Muslim community has always been very silent and very closed in my area. So if I respect honesty, I must observe that if there is some measure of disunity in the Muslim community I have participated in so far, I must say with all sadness and misery - by my observations - that any disunity observed is generated solely from within. Not from outside.

Have I ever met men who call themselves Muslims who are more open and honest? Oh yes!!!! Absolutely! :) :) And it is only from them my interest and curiosity has been nurtured and aided by these kinds of men.....open, gentle, fearless in their faith. Were it not for them speaking honestly, I would have maintained my pre-conversion media-biased suspicion that practiced Islam was a form of man-made organization designed to cast a shadow of displeasure and suspicion on anything that is not itself.

But it was the influence of these kind hearted (and to me, true) Muslims, who practiced patience, openheartedness, friendship and displayed no measure of distrust or suspicion which showed the spirit of the Quran, living in the hearts of these men (some Pakistani, some African, some Serbian).

I cannot recall the name of the Sura, but I know from the first Quran I read, it says - to the effect - that anyone who embraces Islam and then causes misrepresentation and degradation of the spirit of the Quran through the bad wearing of their faith, through their deliberate thoughtless and mean spirited actions and words, through a spirit not in resonance with God as given in the Quran, is not a Muslim.

As a rule of thumb, there is a saying I've heard among my christian friends and I think it has application in this instance.

"Standing in a garage makes you no more of a mechanic than standing in a church makes you a christian."

I think if people remain closed, suspicious, back-biting and difficult, this truly denies anyone the right to call themselves Muslim.

To end, I'll quote Mark Twain and offer an alternative thought:

“The citizen who sees his society’s democratic clothes being worn out and does not cry it out, is not a patriot, but a traitor.” -- Mark Twain

I would add: "The Muslim who sees his religion's clothes being worn by disrespectful men, and does not cry it out, is not a Muslim, but a traitor"
05/28/04 at 21:23:50
georger
Re: Converting others to your "sect" ?
Trustworthy
05/29/04 at 02:49:11
[slm]...

hmmm...i thought they were upset at the fact that he made an incorrect assumption which they (mods) took as an insult.  I don't know what a salafi is and in here we don't categorize ourselves belonging to any sect.  We just belong to the Muslim Ummah/Community.  Nothing more and nothing less.

i got upset because he did speak out of assumption and because he had bad experiences elsewhere, he's taking the advantage of the mods hospitality by disrespecting them.

Our attitude here is not like that.  Not that I think anyways.  You can get upset but don't take it out on us just because we're "nice".  Voice it out but chill, aye!

I'll go find out for myself what a salafi is....

Take good care...

Ma-asalaamah...
Re: Converting others to your "sect" ?
Trustworthy
05/29/04 at 02:53:31
[slm]....

And to add to the answer I gave above:  I wish I knew the Qur'an like I knew the back of my hand, but anyways....anyone, Muslim or not, who speaks incorrectly about Islam, the Prophet (SAW) and Allah (SWT) will abide in the Hellfire for eternity.  If you can prove for sure that they are incorrect, make it so,  If that does not help then you did your job and leave the rest to Allah (SWT) cause Allahu Alim....(Only Allah knows).

Ma-asalaamah....


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