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The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!

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The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
Saam
05/31/04 at 06:34:49
[slm]

I will try to answer the question asked about da'wah as opposed to evangelism/missionary work.

I think the main difference is what we know about hidai (guidance)... that it comes only from Allah.  Many of us know the Islamic phrases:

"He who Allah guides, none can misguide, and he who Allah misguides (or leaves to their own misguidance), none can guide."  and
"Allah gives guidance (hidai) to whom he wills."
"If it had been your Lord's Will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth!  Will you then compel mankind, against their will, to believe?!  No soul can believe, except by the Will of Allah" (Qur'an 10:99).
"There is no compulsion in religion; verily we have made the truth distinct from error." (Qur'an 2:256)

Thus, we know based on this, that even if we wanted to, *we* can NEVER convert anyone to Islam or change anyone's heart... *only* Allah can do that.

Furthermore, in Islam, we know that we are only responsible for our own deeds... "No soul shall bear the burden of another."  Thus whether a person becomes a Muslim or not is not for us to worry about... this is between that person and Allah.

What our duty is as Muslims is to educate about and invite to Islam, not to convert.  This, as I understand it, is da'wah.  We must present to the world the truth about Islam, which, of course, includes giving the proofs and evidences of that truth.  When we discuss Islam with those, we give our proofs (so we present Islam based on wisdom, not blind faith), and we argue in the best and most gracious way only.

"Invite all to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious.   For thy Lord knows best who have strayed from His path, and who receive guidance" 16:125

Once we present clear evidences and educate a people about the beauty of submission to the One God, our initial job is done, at least as far as da'wah by our words is concerned.  More importantly, of course, we must always do da'wah in our actions as well, so people will see that the Muslims truly stand out from the rest of the world, and wonder what it is that causes them to do so.  (I believe the actions of some pious merchants is what caused the reversion of Malaysia, or maybe Indonesia, excuse my lack of memory, to Islam.)  Again, our job is NOT to convert people (that is God's job alone), simply to educate and invite to the truth, by our words and deeds.

Furthermore, while we often hear missionaries slandering Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) or the Prophet  [saw] , Muslims cannot even insult the *idols* that the polytheists worship.

"And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allah, lest they insult Allah wrongfully without knowledge."  (Qur'an 6:108 )

As to the Christianity and Judaism, it is a requirement for Muslims to love all of the prophets (alayhi salam).  Also, since the overwhelming majority of other world religions are pre-Islamic, it is probable that the founders of their religions could have been prophets of God (who brought the same message-- submission to God, though their message would have been changed over time by people), thus we cannot insult any of the founders of these religions for fear of possibly insulting a prophet.

Many, many, many missionaries I know (and I was once a Christian and have been exposed to this time and again) will not give up until they convert a person.  A person will become an evangelist's "peronal project" (as I have been so graciously termed by the guy stalking me).  They seem to think that they can change a person's heart.  Truly, we Muslims know that only God can do this.  God has made the truth distinct from error and has given us all the ability to reason.  Truly, if God wishes to give a person guidance, he will.

It is noteworthy that the non-Muslims in the khilafa (Islamic government) were not only given rights, but were also granted protection by the Muslim armies from hostility.  When Umar (RA) conquered Jerusalem (which willfully surrendered to the just and generous Muslim state), the Christians there invited Umar to pray with them at their church, yet he declined for fear that if he prayed there, it would be converted into a mosque by Muslims in the future.  He prayed outside on the ground instead, and on the ground where he prayed , a mosque was built, which still stands today in Jerusalem (Masjid AlUmar ibn AlKhattab).  Such was the level of respect and protection given to non-Muslims.  Many non-Muslims who were too poor to pay the jizyah, not only did not pay it, but were given money from the Muslim treasury as well.

It is in this respect that da'wah is different from missionary work.  Islam shows an unprecedented level of respect for other religions.  While we are to educate and invite to the truth, we must discuss with WISDOM (showing the proofs and evidences for our beliefs) and do da'wah in the BEST and MOST GRACIOUS way.  If a person chooses to reject these proofs, it is between them and God.

I hope I was able to answer this question thoroughly and give it its due.  Anything good and correct I have said comes from God, anything incorrect is from me.  Please respond with your thoughts.

[slm]
Saam  ;-)
05/31/04 at 06:53:53
Saam
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
ltcorpest2
05/31/04 at 22:44:25
Saam,  that is a really great explanation, but I would give the same explanation to my beliefs also.  I think Christians should give respect to other religions also, but some individuals do not.  This is the same with Islam also.  
   What people should or should not do are 2 completely different things also.  I think that you can see from the prior thread that some muslims give respect to other religions while other berate other religions and show hatred contempt and disrespect.  As a christian it is well known to me and most other evangelic christians that it is impossible to change another persons heart towards God.  Only God can do this.
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
jannah
06/01/04 at 02:32:57
I think there is a big, very fundamental difference as well. Islam is not an "evangelical faith". There are no missionaries. We don't believe our purpose on earth is to "save" people or to make them believe. Whereas this is the mission of evangelical Christianity.

Historically Muslims have not expanded or invaded countries on a religious mission to convert others because they didn't believe in a certain faith and thus were considered uncivlized. (eg the Crusades) There was no inquisition to oust people of other faiths from a country or other things like that either. No doubt there may have been things that have happened over the centuries that were anathema to Islamic teachings, but they have been rare in history and were from a socio-political-economic basis, not religious. Islam has always recognized that there will be people who don't believe in Islam and will live side-by-side with Muslims in tolerance.

Christianity on tne other hand, has a long history and mission to spread their faith, at the sword or other more gentle methods. Hence all the missionaries thoughout the centuries sent to other countries to "save" others. Hence, Christian groups poised to enter Iraq with a million bibles and videos in hand. Hence, the classes and literature in various churches on how to preach to Muslims.

It's just a difference in worldviews I think.
06/01/04 at 02:33:55
jannah
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
ltcorpest2
06/01/04 at 09:54:10
Jannah,  
  When muslims invaded other countries, What was the reason then if not to bring others to the faith or spread theri religion?  I have read on here about tales of the Sahabas (forgive me if I got the name wrong, it has been a while since i read this) and what great warriors they were and how much they conquered in a short period of time.  

  Also,  it is not the purpose of evangelical christanity to make people believe.  My purpose on this earth is to serve God in whatever he wishes me to do. Again,  I cannot save anyone and no Christain can,  only God can change peoples hearts.

 Although there are certainly world view differences,  I see more similarities then differences.  The one big difference is each one thinks of themsleves as right and if so then the other must be wrong.


mike
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
jannah
06/01/04 at 12:51:27
Mike, it was never about converting anyone to Islam. The fact that the caliphate militarily grew so far at that time is something different, and the fact that Islam spread so fast is different as well. But it has never been about converting people. Note that in many countries the Muslims ruled over the people were given the right to keep their own faith, such as the subcontinent where Muslims ruled for 800 years but the general population remained Hindu all that time.

You may not believe your purpose is to "save people". But check out the websites and missions of Christian leaders, people like Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, his son, Jerry Fallwell, others of the religious "right" and not so right, just ordinary missionary organizations. Robertson's hatred and intolerance of other faiths is broadcast to 180 countries in 71 languages. He has MILLIONS of followers.

No doubt every person has their own personal beliefs, sometimes in line with the church or their leader, sometimes not.

This British historian defines an Evangelical Christian as exhibiting four beliefs and behaviors: Conversionism: the belief that lives need to be changed.
Activism: the expression of the gospel in effort.
Biblicism: a particular regard for the Bible.
Crucicentrism: a stress on the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. 13,14

Webster defines it as "Emphasizing salvation by faith in the atoning death of Jesus Christ, through personal conversion, the authority of scripture, and the importance of preaching as contrasted with ritual."
06/01/04 at 12:55:56
jannah
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
ltcorpest2
06/01/04 at 17:15:39
Jannah,  Would you say that doing dawah is a basic tenet of Islam?

  Doing God's will encompasses many facets of one's life.  Feeding the poor, doing dawah (or letting others know through words and deeds of who God is, which from my very limited knowledge of Islam is what dawah seems to be inferring), taking care of the widows, taking care of other believers, obeying what God has commanded of you, taking care of what gifts and resources God has entrusted to you, honouring your mother and father, honouring your wife, giving to God what is his and innumerable other things.

One thing you have to remember that a missions site focuses mainly on missions , but that does not mean that a missionaries only focus is on missions (if that makes sense).

 I am sure that Pat Robertson has many believers and i have no idea how many.  I do not know of any christian friends that listens or watches his programs and heck I know lots and lots of people.  But i could present to you that some guy that we are banned from talking about has million of "followers" also that is muslim and what he presents as his version of fatwas and Islam and how much hate they generate.  Do i think this represents everyday islam?  Certainly not or I would have stop posting here long ago.  I would hope that you do not catagorize Evangelical christianity by what the most ascerbic adherents of the so called christian right have to say, just like I would hope that you do not want me to catagorize muslims in the same vein as that person who we are not allowed to discuss who happens to claim himself as muslim.  

One last item,  the average Christian has no specific leader.  If you asked an average Christian who the church leader is (this is putting aside Catholics for now) i would guarantee that 99.9999% would never say Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell or any other that you mentioned.  

Also, one more last item.  I could go along with the british Historians view of what evangelical Christianity is, although it is far from complete.  Webster's definition leaves much much to be desired.


also,  I am sorry.  I try to limit my responses to one paragraph and I apologize for the boredom I may have caused.
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
Mossy
06/01/04 at 17:27:12
I've always viewed Tableeghi Jamaat as the ideological/practical contempory of evangelical christianity. And it does a good job too. Mash'Allah.
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
Saam
06/01/04 at 18:09:50
[slm]

Well, da'wah is not a pillar of Islam, if that is what you're asking... (but following the pillars-- shahada, salat, sawm, zakat, hajj-- is a kind of dawah in and of itself).

It is required for dawah to be done in your community, but a Muslim is not required to do dawah if it is already being done in his or her community.

But the key difference I think is that we are not trying to "spread our religion" as you put it Mike.  As long as we have done our part, we will not be called to account for whether or not someone accepts our religion.

We simply must educate our community about the truth... that's all.  Allah knows already if they will accept it or not; what they do is not related to our duty.

Also, the Islamic khilafa spread justice throughout the lands.  The mujahideen (soldiers of Islam) fought against injustice and oppression, but never was this for converting people.

Also, the Tablighi Jamaat's focus is mainly on da'wah to Muslims.  Much different from the focus of evangelical Christianity (whose main focus is non-Christians).

[wlm]
Saam  ;-)
06/01/04 at 18:34:55
Saam
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
bhaloo
06/02/04 at 01:08:26
[slm]

Jannah has mentioned some really good points, points that I was thinking about a few days earlier.  If you look at all the christian missionaries on TV, they are talking about fighting the Muslims and killing them, and the leader of America, Bush, follows the reverened Graham, who has attacked Islam.  So how can one say that these missionaries are good people?  Most of them, at least the vocal ones, the ones in TV, in the papers, are attacking Islam.  As Jannah has pointed out, through out history, we've seen the crusades, we've seen how the US has invaded other countries and then the missionaries followed, to try and convert the "savages".  Their method of spreading their beliefs is through force and violence and then the missionaries go in "offering food and clothing" to the poor.  The British did it in Pakistan/India/China, etc.

[quote]
But i could present to you that some guy that we are banned from talking about has million of "followers" also that is muslim and what he presents as his version of fatwas and Islam and how much hate they generate.  Do i think this represents everyday islam?  Certainly not or I would have stop posting here long ago.
[/quote]

That isn't true.  There is a huge difference.  I'm not saying he did the things that some claim he has done, or saying he hasn't done them, but if he did what people claim he has done, these are obviously because of criminal and terrorist actions committed by the west on Muslims.  It is a reaction to what is going on.  From the beginning he has called for the west to leave Saudi Arabia and leave Muslim lands (stop their imperialism and invasions).   A few months back, maybe weeks, I asked a question here on the board, how many people would act rationally if you saw your family killed before your eyes.  Two people responded and spoke up and said they wouldn't.  If the US didn't support Israel and got out of Muslim lands, we would finally have peace in the US.  But the government doesn't want that, they want to increase military spending (to keep the military employed), and to support Israel and zionism.  

Also, the Tablighi Jamaat have done a lot of good alhumdullilah, and in no way should they be compared to these christian evangelicals that lie and use deception.  Its an insult to them.
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
ltcorpest2
06/02/04 at 01:48:26
Can you specify what I said that isn't true?
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
Dawn
06/02/04 at 04:12:50
[slm]

I have been thinking about this topic since Sparrow posted the question, and before this topic goes totally off-topic, I'd like to perhaps collect my thoughts in a post. It seems to me that the only difference between the two is that missionary activity is what I might call "pro-actionary", while dawah is what I might call "re-actionary".  Allow me to explain.  From what I understand, and please correct me if I am wrong, dawah for most Muslims involves two main aspects -- living one's life in accordance to the best understanding one has of what Allah requires in Islam, and representing Islam to the best of one's understanding when one is asked about any aspect of it.  This second part would be the "re-actionary" aspect of dawah.  Whereas, a missionary activity would involve these two aspects, albeit with Christianity replacing Islam in the appropriate places in the sentence, AS WELL AS a "pro-actionary" aspect.  I don't think any Christian will deny that Christianity is a proselytory religion -- after all the last verse in the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament quotes Jesus as saying "Go ye therefore and teach all nations ..." (courtesy of the King James Version).  Hence, most Christians, I think, will agree that missionary activity potentially involves going out there and putting oneself in the way of folks who haven't heard the gospel -- hence bringing the message to the people, a very "pro-actionary" activity.  HOWEVER, I know of not a single Christian who would tell you that the Christian [i]him/herself[/i] is responsible for that conversion.  They would say (as Mike has already said) that this responsibility lies with [i]God and God alone[/i].  Where Christians might differ among themselves (and I say might, not because I have ever had discussions with Christians on this issue, but because behavior seems to indicate a difference) is in their understanding of how far one is responsible for going in making sure that another has been presented with the Gospel and understands it (as they understand it, of course being implicit).

Whew.  I hope that is relatively clear, or at least perhaps opaque.

With Peace,
Dawn  
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
ltcorpest2
06/02/04 at 13:20:01
been thinking about this topic since Sparrow posted the question, and before this topic goes totally off-topic, I'd like to perhaps collect my thoughts in a post.

When have we ever gone "off topic"?

Also,  I hope that I did not imply in previous posts that Christianity is a non-proselytising religion.  One more thing.  I also feel like i have strayed here in my self imposed (although nebulous ) ban on religious issues.  If I have forgive me.
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
Abu_Hamza
06/02/04 at 21:03:37
[slm]

I cannot talk about Christian concepts, but I would like to add my two cents about what da'wah means.  Perhaps Sparrow, Mike, Dawn, and others, can take from that and compare for themselves the concepts of da'wah and Christian evanglism/prosyletizing/missions.

First, the word da'wah is an Arabic word which literally means to call or invite.  In a religious sense, the word means calling and inviting people to serve Allah (God).  Therefore any word or action which is uttered or performed with that intent is considered da'wah.  Please note that da'wah, therefore, is performed both to Muslims and non-Muslims.  

As far as da'wah to non-Muslims is concerned, Allah (swt) has commanded the Muslims through His Word (the Qur'an) and the tongue of His Prophet (pbuh) to convey the Message of Islam to those who have not heard it.  The Message of Islam being that there is no deity worthy of our worship except Allah (God), and that Muhammad (pbuh) was the final Messenger of Allah sent for the guidance of entire humanity.  The propagation of this Message to all humanity is the obligation of all Muslims.  The Qur'an says, using the imperative form of the word [i]da'wah[/i]: "Invite to the Path of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful speech."  The Prophet (saw) similarly commanded his followers by saying, [i]Ballighoo 'annee, wa law aayah[/i], meaning: Convey/Propagate on my behalf, even if it be a single verse (of the Qur'an).  

At several places in the Qur'an, Allah (swt) commands the Muslims by saying [i]Qul[/i], meaning: Say/Proclaim.  For example He says, "[i]Qul[/i] He is Allah, the Only God."  And He says, "[i]Qul[/i] O People of the Book, come to a common word (of agreement) between you and us ..."

Furthermore, the Prophet (pbuh) himself sent numerous letters to the leaders of various nations inviting them to accept Islam.  And his companions followed his example after him.

Islam has not defined any manner of performing da'wah.  It can be done through the distribution of literature, conducting lectures, or simply acting as an embodiment of Islamic teachings in front of others.

However, there are restrictions to the manner in which the Message of Islam is conveyed to others.  And among the most important of these is that there is to be no compulsion in religion.  Force, therefore, can never be used to convert people.  Other guidelines for da'wah are to be wise, to use the right time, right words, and right approach in presenting the Message to the people.  To be patient, gentle, and sincere.  To realize that a Musilm's duty is simply to convey the Message, and not to convert people, for Allah is the one who controls the hearts of men and women, not us.  And so on.

And thus, although a Muslim is open and vocal about his faith in front of others, he is never imposing or annoying.  And though he strives to establish the religion and rule of God on this Earth - out of love for his fellow human beings - he does so within the bounds specified for him.

That's my two cents :)

Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah
06/02/04 at 21:05:22
Abu_Hamza
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
ltcorpest2
06/02/04 at 21:23:35
Abu Hanmza,  that is way worth more than 2 cents
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
Halima
06/03/04 at 01:45:15
Abu Hamza wrote:
[quote]However, there are restrictions to the manner in which the Message of Islam is conveyed to others.  And among the most important of these is that there is to be no compulsion in religion.  Force, therefore, can never be used to convert people.  Other guidelines for da'wah are to be wise, to use the right time, right words, and right approach in presenting the Message to the people.  To be patient, gentle, and sincere.  To realize that a Iusilm's duty is simply to convey the Message, and not to convert people, for Allah is the one who controls the hearts of men and women, not us.  And so on.

And thus, although a Muslim is open and vocal about his faith in front of others, he is never imposing or annoying.  And though he strives to establish the religion and rule of God on this Earth - out of love for his fellow human beings - he does so within the bounds specified for him.[/quote]

Allah Ya Izak Abu Hamza.  Well summed and accurately put.  It answers completely and simply. May Allah reward you dear brother.  Yeah, it is more than two cents.  I give it 100%

Halima
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
Dawn
06/03/04 at 04:48:55
[slm]

Thanks Abu Hamza!  That was very insightful and definitely worth more than 2 cents!  It would seem that dawah and missionary activity (in their "ideals") are much, much closer than I thought.  (Live and learn! :))  In fact, the only real difference I can see is that Christians are given the extra command to "Go".  The [i]proclaim[/i] (Islam) and [i]teach/instruct[/i] (Christianity) are there in both.  Even the manner of their presentation is to be the same.  That is, I believe that pretty much everything Abu Hamza said about dawah could be applied to the Christian's responsibility to share the gospel, simply by changing the message being conveyed.  It should probably be noted that in Christianity, I think, unlike in Islam, there are no specific methods to avoid (from what I remember of my new testament anyway) when it comes to preaching the gospel. However, there are guidelines to follow in life.  For instance, Christians are exhorted "to speak ill of no one, to be peaceable and reasonable, showing complete gentleness toward all men" and "In your teaching show integrity, seriousness and soundness of speech, ..." (Titus 3:2 and 2:7) or "always be ready to answer anyone who demands that you give a reason for the hope that is in you; but with gentleness and respect, with good conscience, ..." (1 Peter 3:15-16).  And there are loads of other similar references.  Hence in that light, slandering the Prophet (pbuh) would be distinctly against biblical exhortations, not to mention how terribly non-Christian any sort of forced conversion (or forced anything, for that matter) is.  (Of course that has not stopped Christians, past and present, from behaving and speaking in this manner, but in the same fashion as Jannah rightly pointed out with regards to Islam, such behavior is not sanctioned.)  

It would seem, then, that the ideal way of performing dawah and the ideal way of engaging in evangelism/proselytizing/missions are almost identical in manner (though certainly not in content), with the only distinct difference being that Christians seem to also have the additional directive of "going" (which term is also open for interpretation, of course.)  

with Peace,
Dawn
06/03/04 at 04:50:03
Dawn
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
jannah
06/03/04 at 15:28:43
I'm sorry I don't know how anyone can think dawah and christian missionary work is the same. They are completely different. No doubt it's true that both are on the surface about believing one's faith is right and sharing one's faith with others. But there is a complete difference in core idealogy, methodology and practice.

First in Islam dawah is just naturally part of being Muslim. That is to practice their religion in every aspect of it so that people can know what Islam is about and be educated. It's not part of Islam to go out and preach to Non-Muslims or target certain groups of people and divise ways to get them to change their religion. It is NOT part of our duty to convert people. Because Islam is a tolerant deen, it teaches that there will be people that are of other faiths, and they have rights and are to be respected in their beliefs, to the point of even providing seperate civil courts for them so they can truly practice their beliefs down to their laws!

Can this be said of missionary organizations.. NO! Their goal is to convert Muslim peoples, to "plant churches among them" and so on, to "save them", because to them no other faith is acceptable. If you believe that only Jesus can save you, why wouldn't you do everything in your power to try to convert people?

So when it comes down to it Islam says other religions are wrong, but is tolerant of them. Christianity says other religions are wrong, but is not tolerant and makes every effort to change them.

Seriously, you don't need to take my word for it, I mean just read some of these documents about missionary work towards Muslims and the work these organizations do. It clearly shows the difference between dawah and missionary work.

[url=http://www.arabicbible.com/christian/tips_reaching_islam.htm]Witnessing Tips to Reach Muslims [/url]
[url=http://www.cmmequip.org/booklets/sharing.pdf] How to Share your Faith with Muslims[/url]
[url=http://www.arabicbible.com/christian/zwemer.htm]Biography of one missionary and the work he did in the Muslim world [/url]

[url=http://www.frontiers.org/about/reasons.htm]The Center of Ministry to Muslims [/url]

[url=http://www.safeplace.net/members/mer/BAI-0.html]How to share God's word to Muslims [/url]
[url=http://www.safeplace.net/members/mer/MER_A023.htm] Your Muslim Neighbor-[/url]
[url=http://www.safeplace.net/members/mer/MER_A021.htm]Establishing New Base To Reach Muslims -- America!-  [/url]
Here's some organizations:

[url=http://www.safeplace.net/members/mer/mer_intr.htm] Missions To Muslims in the Twenty-First Century [/url]
[url=http://www.gospelcom.net/awm]Red Sea Missions - A Christian Mission to the Arab World
 [/url]
[url=http://www.gospelcom.net/awm]Arab World Ministries - A Christian Mission to the Arab World
[/url]
[url=http://www.frontiers.org/]Frontiers - A Christian Mission to the Islamic World [/url]

[url=http://www.christar.org/]Christar Planting churches among least-reached East Asians, Hindus and Muslims.
[/url]
[url=http://www.gospelcom.net/meco/]Middle East Christian Outreach - Aims to extend the kingdom of God in Middle Eastern countries. [/url]
[url=http://www.safeplace.net/members/mer/Mer_p002.html]Re-Thinking Missions Today - Neo-Evangelical Missionlogy and the Christian Mission To Islam.
[/url]
[url=http://www.harvestforchrist.org.uk/]Harvest For Christ, Taking the Gospel of Christ to Islam [/url]
[url=http://www.ethnicharvest.org/peoples/muslim.htm]Ethnic Harvest Ministry Resources - Resources Page on Islam
[/url]
[url=http://www.ethnicharvest.org/peoples/muslim.htm] People International - Bringing Christ's love to the Muslims People of Central Asia
[/url]
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
se7en
06/03/04 at 19:13:06
as salaamu alaykum / peace be upon you,

one other point of difference between missionary work and da'wah:

The central authority of the Muslim community, historically recognized by every Muslim as the leader of the Muslim world, the khilafa, did not teach or advocate forced conversion or oppression of people who practiced other faiths.  On the contrary, tolerance and pluralism has been the hallmark of Islamic civilization, something noted and recorded by objective historians of all faiths.  The flourishing of Jewish intellectual thought occurred under the rule of Muslims; Jerusalem was peaceful under the rule of Muslims; and Muslim-ruled Spain was a jewel, the contributions of its native Muslim, Christian and Jewish scholarship radiating throughout the world.  There are certainly some dark pages in the annals of this history, some exceptions to this rule, such as the policies of the leader al-Mansur and others, but these pages do not negate or even compete with the norm that was peaceful co-existence.

On the other hand, the central authority of the Christian community has regularly taught and adovated for forced conversion, and the oppression of those who practiced other faiths.  This was the rule, not the exception, until very recently, and was not enacted by vigilante or extreme parties but by the establishment itself.  Numerous examples can be cited here..  one very clear example that comes to mind is the enslavement of Africans, which the Catholic Church did not repudiate until 1890.  In the 15th century, the pope denounced the enslavement of Christians, but he explicitly encouraged the enslavement of people of other faiths.  And, as Europeans began to drag Africans across the Atlantic as slaves, the Church pronounced this system justified as long as it was accompanied by the evangelization of the enslaved.

Also, I think it's interesting that the Arabs really had no beef with Jews until the establishment of the state of Israel in the latter half of the 20th century.. that was the impetus by which anti-semetism began to grow in the Middle East and elswehere in the Muslim world.  Whereas Christianity has a century-spanning history of conflict with people of the Jewish faith, stemming from the idea that Jews were responsible for the death of Christ.  It's interesting that Arabs did not even have any anti-Semetic literature in their midst until they translated them from European languages, such as the Elders of Zion, and other works.

just some thoughts on the topic.. I don't mean to offend anyone.

06/03/04 at 19:15:27
se7en
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
ltcorpest2
06/03/04 at 19:18:57
Can this be said of missionary organizations.. NO! Their goal is to convert Muslim peoples, to "plant churches among them" and so on, to "save them", because to them no other faith is acceptable.

Jannah,  Can you clarify that thought.  Acceptable to whom?  To God or man?  I think that all faiths are acceptable to a certain degree.  People of faith are reaching out to God.  Are you saying that people of any faith will go to heaven, or are you saying,  it is acceptable to muslims but you are going to hell?  (hopefully that is not too blunt).

Toleration is up to the individual, Jannah.  Some christians are more tolerant of others and the same can be said of muslims.  I think of myself as a fairly tolerant guy.  Would I be the exception to the rule of christians or would I be just an average christian. (i think of myself as fairly average)  I can think of people on here who are very tolerant, but I can of a few (well maybe one) who are hateful and vindictive and that are not toleraant at all.


Can this be said of missionary organizations.. NO! Their goal is to convert Muslim peoples, to "plant churches among them" and so on, to "save them", because to them no other faith is acceptable. If you believe that only Jesus can save you, why wouldn't you do everything in your power to try to convert people?
 
Can I turn the table on you and say:  If you believe that only Islam can save you, why are you then not doing everything in your power to try and convert people?

To answer it from my point of view the only power that I have is that which God gives me and the power to save people is not a power I have or that any other Christian has,  only God has that power.  
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
jannah
06/03/04 at 19:51:07
I'm not talking about individuals. I'm talking about an idealogical civlizational intolerance that comes from the root of a philosophy and teaching. If one person was like this or a few we'd have nothing to talk about. But missionaries are organized groups of people with millions of dollars behind them and very sophisticated methods developed for only one cause: to convert others. Why don't they just let others believe and live the way they choose?

You asked: If you believe that only Islam can save you, why are you then not doing everything in your power to try and convert people?

Because our religion doesn't teach that. It's not our job or our goal or anything else to try and convert people. We are only expected to defend our faith and live our life as good Muslims.
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
Halima
06/04/04 at 02:21:49
jannah wrote:
[quote]Seriously, you don't need to take my word for it, I mean just read some of these documents about missionary work towards Muslims and the work these organizations do. It clearly shows the difference between dawah and missionary work.

Witnessing Tips to Reach Muslims  
How to Share your Faith with Muslims
Biography of one missionary and the work he did in the Muslim world

The Center of Ministry to Muslims

How to share God's word to Muslims
Your Muslim Neighbor-
Establishing New Base To Reach Muslims -- America!-  
Here's some organizations:

Missions To Muslims in the Twenty-First Century
Red Sea Missions - A Christian Mission to the Arab World  
Arab World Ministries - A Christian Mission to the Arab World  
Frontiers - A Christian Mission to the Islamic World

Christar Planting churches among least-reached East Asians, Hindus and Muslims.  
Middle East Christian Outreach - Aims to extend the kingdom of God in Middle Eastern countries.
Re-Thinking Missions Today - Neo-Evangelical Missionlogy and the Christian Mission To Islam.    
Harvest For Christ, Taking the Gospel of Christ to Islam
Ethnic Harvest Ministry Resources - Resources Page on Islam  
People International - Bringing Christ's love to the Muslims People of Central Asia[/quote]

There is one thing (my opinion) that I think Muslims in the West do not realize.  That Christian Missionaries have been trying to convert Muslims all along, from colonial time to the present.  So, this is not something new.  This conversation has not had any impact on people who were already Muslims in the third world.  Take Somalia for example, colonliyolists from the French, the British and the Italians could not convert a single Somali to Christianity.  Same with other countries in Africa with majority or minority Muslims.  They remained steadfast in their Islamic belief despite their colonizers' missionary intents which among others were; greed, despise, superiority, etc. and had little to do with religion.  Religion was just a means to and end.

And with the current hatred being perpetrated against Muslims, believe me, this sophisticated missionary attempts will not make a dent in converting Muslims in the third world.  Remember we have lived with poverty in Africa and other third world countries and if colonial dollars could not convert us before, then Islamic/Muslim hatred dollars will not do so, especially now that every Muslim on earth is suspicious of the war against terror and know very well what is behind it. Because it is no longer a war against terror but a war against Islam and Muslim.

Please Muslims brothers and sisters, give us some credit.  We are not WEAK people who are easily converted or swayed by a flow of dollars.  We have dignity, integrity, pride and a love for Islam that is above all else.  We don't sell our souls and religion for dollars no matter how much and no matter the level of our poverty.  We are not EASILY dazzled by missionaries, what they are trying to do or trying to hand out.  We don't take KINDLY to hand outs.

All these talk of Christian missionaries and their tactics by Muslims is giving the picture that we are afraid and are easily manipulated by dollars.  This is NOT TRUE and contrary to the reality in the Muslim world whether majority or minority.  Even in Iraq, this will not be possible.  By crying foul so LOUDLY of their acitivies, you are giving PROMININENCE to them and what they are trying to do. Yes, lets be aware of what they are trying to do, BUT lets NOT GIVE IMPORTANCE to it.  Muslims here are AWARE.

What we need to do as Muslims is to educate our kids, the ones yet to be born, they little one we have now, the young people who will be the next generation Muslims to have the same principles we that have Islamically and worldly.  This is more important for Muslims in the west because of the influences in schools, the propaganda in the media, hatred being perpetrated against Islam and Muslims.  Parents in the third world are already doing this not by demonizing Christianity but by teaching MORE indepthly what Islam is all about.  Because children now are asking why Muslims are being killed or targeted.

Halima
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
timbuktu
06/04/04 at 03:08:59
[slm] unfortunately it isn't true that there is no conversion.

The wars, and the famines are partly made with the end in view that the missionaries can go in and "save" souls.

The effect has not been desiredly spectular, but the missionary schools have indeed taken muslims away from the deen.

I meet many Christians here with names that are decidedly muslim in origin, so the law-caste Hindus aren't the only ones who have converted. On another site, I read of the covert operations in which evangelical activity is being done, and the souls they "save".

These are difficult times: The anti-Islam tone of the war-of[/b-terror frightens muslims away from the deen. The charms of the modern civilization make people want to give up on the do's and don'ts of Islam, finding them restricting on their ambitions to have a "good" life, so materialism is taking its toll.
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
Halima
06/04/04 at 04:40:12
We have more people converting to Islam here and no case of Muslims converting to Christianity.  Poverty is an everyday part life here.  Muslism here are not happy with current situation but not cowered to Convert.  That is the reality.  Kenyan Muslims are a minority holding to the Deen tight.

I don't accept that we all can be swayed regardless of the circumstances.

Halima



Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
ltcorpest2
06/04/04 at 23:05:59
seven  (1st of all, i hope your wedding plans are going well)
I found your thoughts on Jews very interesting.  I think it easy to be magnanomous when you have all the power.  The Jews were not a threat because they had no real power in the muslim world, now they have their own country there is a percieved threat and they are universaly hated in the Islamic world.    

Same with the muslims in the west.  They have no real power but for the most part they have been the least predjudiced minority group around (although this has changed since 911, I would imagine).  From my limited understanding there are muslims studies in many many american universities that  are run by muslims (if that is not rue please forgive me).  This probably cannot be said of most muslims countries I would think.
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
jannah
06/05/04 at 03:52:02
[quote author=mike link=board=lighthouse;num=1085996090;start=20#23 date=06/04/04 at 23:05:59] I think it easy to be magnanomous when you have all the power.  [/quote] I think when you have the power, that is the TRUE test. . Look at how various people have used their power over others in history. Has it been to kill and convert ppl at gunpoint or allow them to retain their religious convictions. And look at the one's who have the power in our current times and how they use it to oppress and abuse others

[quote]now they have their own country there is a percieved threat and they are universaly hated in the Islamic world.   [/quote] Jews are not universally hated by Muslims. Jews are people of the book and Muslims respect them because they were at one time followers of a true prophet, like Christians were. However, in this day and age the State of Israel is literally raping, abusing, destroying, oppressing and exploiting the Palestinian people (Muslim and Christian). Their homes are being razed. Their souces of food and health, work and development are being systematically destroyed. They are treated worse than animals because they have NO rights, whereas animals do have some. Every UN resolution passed against Israel is passed by every country except the US and sometimes the UK. It's absolute hypocrisy. What Muslims hate are peoples oppressive regimes of occupation and those who support them with their lies and so-called hegemony of world domination.


[quote]Same with the muslims in the west.  They have no real power but for the most part they have been the least predjudiced minority group around (although this has changed since 911, I would imagine).  [/quote]

least prejudiced minority group? even pre- 9/11 it was normal for Muslims to go through racism and prejudice.. especially during times when practicing muslims were most villified: the Iranian Revolution, the Gulf War, Post 9/11, during the war with Afghanistan, and now the war with Iraq.



[quote]From my limited understanding there are muslims studies in many many american universities that  are run by muslims (if that is not rue please forgive me). [/quote]

From what I've read the overwhelmingly majority of Islamic studies departments in the U.S. are run by non-Muslims, and interestingly enough atheists.

[quote]This probably cannot be said of most muslims countries I would think.[/quote]
I'm not sure what you're asking? Are Christian studies departments in the Muslim world run by Christians?? No idea, but i think the true lithmus tests of tolerance have already been detailed in my last few posts.

06/05/04 at 03:54:13
jannah
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
Nadeem
06/05/04 at 08:05:07
Hi Mike,

Hope you're keeping well. :)

I think Jannah covered a lot of the points in her post above, but I just wanted to add something on the point about Muslims and Jews, if I may.

[quote author=mike link=board=lighthouse;num=1085996090;start=20#23 date=06/04/04 at 23:05:59]I found your thoughts on Jews very interesting.  I think it easy to be magnanomous when you have all the power.  The Jews were not a threat because they had no real power in the muslim world, now they have their own country there is a percieved threat and they are universaly hated in the Islamic world. [/quote]
Let me first reiterate Jannah by saying that Jews are NOT universally hated.  Its not the Jews that most Muslims have a problem with.  Jews are a respected people in our traditions.  They received revelations from Allah (God) before us, and many of our beloved Prophets were from the Jewish tribes.

Its the [i]*Israeli*[/i] policies that create the bad feeling.  It's not because they've got "their own country" that they're viewed as threatening.  It's because they forcibly turfed Palestinians out of their homes and persist in carrying out all their acts of killing, abusing, humiliation, of civilians (men women and children).  It is precisely because of these actions that had the *Israelis* been aetheists, Buddhists, or tree-worshippers, they would still not be on most Muslim's "best friend" list.

I agree it is easier to be magnanomous when you have all the power.  It's a shame then that current Israeli policy doesn't reflect that :(
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
bhaloo
06/08/04 at 22:24:04
[slm]

Regarding dawah:

An important matter for Muslims to realize is that da`wah is an obligation upon them. Allah (subhaanahu wa ta`aalaa) says in the Qur'aan:

"Invite to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided." [al-Qur'aan, an-Nisaa'(16):125]

"Let there arise out of you a group of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining al-ma`roof [i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do] and forbidding al-Munkar [polytheism and disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden]. And it is they who are successful." [al-Qur'aan, Aal `Imraan (3):104]

The second verse may seem to be restricting the general obligation given in the first verse, but a close look at the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) reveals that calling to Allah is an individual obligation, rather than a collective one. The Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) has said: "Convey from me, even one verse." [al-Bukhaaree] Conveying the message therefore does not require a high level of scholarship, it is in fact a responsibility of each and every Muslim, according to his or her ability.

The obligation is further emphasized by the following verse which explains that not conveying the message - hiding knowledge - is disobedience to Allah that causes Allah's curse to descend upon such people, which shows that such a sin leads to the Hellfire.

"Verily, those who conceal the clear proofs, evidences and the guidance, which We have sent down, after We have made it clear for the people in the book, they are the ones cursed by Allah and cursed by the cursers." [al-Qur'aan, al-Baqara(2):159]

In the same connection, the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) has stated, "Whoever hides knowledge, Allah will brand him with the branding iron from the hellfire." [Ahmad]

Calling people to Allah also means completing our own worship, the reason for which we are created. It is one of the noblest acts that entails a high reward.

"And who is better in speech than he who invites to Allah and does righteous deeds, and says: 'I am one of the Muslims.'" [al-Qur'aan, Fussilat(41):33]

With regards to the reward, the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) has said: "Whoever guides [another] to a good deed will get a reward similar to the one who performs it." [Saheeh Muslim] Also, "By Allah, if Allah were to guide one man through you it would be better for you than the best type of camels." [al-Bukhaaree, Muslim]

Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
Sara_R
06/09/04 at 00:22:40
[slm]

As someone who is new to Islam I find this topic sort of relevant. I was raised in a Catholic household. I had left it in essence about my first confession. (The idea of going into a dark small box and confessing my 'sins' to a vitual stranger at age 7 was rather creepy I must admit :o)

Living here in this large city one gets to meet many people from all backgrounds. Often it is the actions of a person that speaks louder than words. I've never had a Moslem come to my front door to help me see the 'errors of my ways' or to tell me I am going to hell. I actually had to make an effort to seek out information about Islam. When I started to meet Moslems, I found that they encouraged me to 'think', to use the mind I was blessed with rather then just 'believe.'

I was not looking for a religion at all. I was not too enamored by organized religion.  And to see that I, of all people could become a Moslem is frankly startling. I have thought long and hard about how this could have happened to me. But that is another book entirely. :D

Since i've been a Moslem 'officially' for about 2 months i cannot speak from an extensive knowledge.  But the main feeling I have, had was the feeling of being invited to learn and ask questions, to seek, to search, to grow. Whereas my knowledge and experiences with folks who evangilize was to control. In fact many Moslems said.. read, learn examine, compare other faiths/thoughts.. the more knowledge one gains the better one is for it. To me this signifies an understanding that faith is truly up to Allah as well as a very strong belief in Islam. Islam wants people to think. Islam is not threatened by knowledge.

I remember riding a public bus through the city. And this woman stood up and spent the entire bus ride trying to get people to 'convert'. I have never seen or heard of a Moslem doing that.The thing that struck me was that yes, she may have had something she wished to share. But she did not ask if we wanted to listen. I think it is about a basic feeling of disrespect of other's beliefs, ideas etc.

This had no scholarly background.. just some personal experiences.

Peace,

Sara

 

Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
lucid9
06/10/04 at 15:47:25
[slm]

(1) Evangelical christianity and proslytizing muslims are very different.  Such christians will use every trick in the book to covert people.  They will lie, cheat, bribe,...do almost anything, because to them the ends justify the means.  Afterall the say: "we're saving them from eternal damnation".  For example, you hear so many stories:   They have often played games with handouts and food.  They give out food only to poor people who are sypathetic to their cause and do much much worse  They are in the business of converting, and like all good corporate types they will do anything to further their cause.  

For muslims, proslytizing means conveying the word only.  You are supposed to encourage folks toward islam, but whether they follow you to islam is irrelevent.   Guidance is with God alone.  That is why at every friday prayer the imam almost always reads:  whomsover God guides, none can guide, and whomsoever God leads astray, nobody can guide.  And even the most vocal of all peoples, tablighis,  preach almost exclusively only to muslims.  Their are some pushy muslim preacher types.  But their pushy behaviour is because of their personality, and not because of their religious instruction.

(2) Folks, muslims are converting to christianity, and in some numbers!  The guy who almost became the archbishop of canterbury (head of the anglican church/Church of England) has a muslim name and is Pakistani.  Nigeria used to be completely muslim.  It is now 50% christian.   Bangladesh,  Pakistan and India have significant muslim populations as do Indonesia, Malyasia, etc.

Muslims are the hardest of all folks to convert.  But it happens all of the time.  Missionaries play lots of tricks with money and food.  And when you are poor and hardly know anything about islam because you are so illiterate, sometimes becoming christian seems very attractive.  The church is very rich, they will help you, and they might even help you get to the rich west.  And afterall the very rich west is christian.  So you have to have a lot of resolve not to convert.  What is surprising is not that muslims are converting, but rather that not many are.  By staying muslim your earthly prospects are pretty dismal.  But if you convert, they rise exponentially. Just ask the former prime minister of Argentina.  He converted to catholicism from Islam -- and he became the head of the country!!
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
ltcorpest2
06/13/04 at 22:55:21
Hyper,  hearing many stories and those stories actually being true might be something completely dfferent.  I have been on several missions trips some of them being as simple as bringing shoes down south of the US border.  I would have no idea who is sympathetic to the christian cause.  I do not even speak spanish.

  When i here these things it has to make me laugh.  It does not take much to figure out that if someone was going to take up their vacation time to help the poor and seeing poor people that it would take an extremely hard heart to only help certain people.  In some ways religion has little to do with it.  I would think that an athiest going to a third world country or anyone of any faith, just by being human would be helping anyone who needed it.  

 For some reason i have a feeling that muslims see Dawn and my posts and for some reason it is not being read or ignored.  hyper,  Dawn has explained more eloquently than I could.  Can you read her responses  and tell me,  Do you think she is lying or telling the truth?  I would consider myself to be a very average evangelical (maybe typical would be a better word).  In 2 and 1/2 years  here, I do not think anyone here can say I have ever proselytized anyone.  If someone thinks different let me know.
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
bhaloo
06/15/04 at 07:55:38
[slm]

Excellent post Hyper.  And his post is not speculation, but based on actual facts, as confirmed by people that have lived in those areas and by scholars.  I have personally dealt with missionaries/evangelicals as has Jannah, and we know VERY WELL the evil of these people.  Muslims should be aware of these deviants and equip themselves with knowledge to refute these ignorants.

I was reading something interesting the other day by a Christian psychologist, who was saying that many devil worshippers have high places in the church (it was an article on Billy Graham), based on the studies she has done.  I guess this is a place for them to go to make money and trick people.  I'll see if I can find that article again.  
Re: The Da'ee -- NOT a Muslim missionary!!
ltcorpest2
06/15/04 at 12:13:15
Bhaloo,  can you define more clearly who these people are? Are you saying that a couple of evangelicals that you dealt with or a majority or what?  

  I would say that Satan is alive and well and there is a verse in the bible that talks about wolves in sheeps clothing, so from that standpoint I agree that satan worshipers are in the church.  But i would think that would be the same from a muslims perspective also.  For an example an imam teaching that it you will get a reward if you commit suicide while murdering people would be satan influenced.  Do you not think this is the case or would you think that an imam knowing the Quran could logically come to the conclusion that it is an act of submital to Allah?


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