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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Why does every muslim want to be a doctor/engineer |
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| lucid9 |
| 06/17/04 at 18:56:07 |
| [slm] why do all muslims want to be doctors and engineers. hamza yusof is very critical of muslims for this -- because engineers/computer scientists always live under this illusion that anything even vaguely logical must surely be right. it is particularly disturbing that muslims hardly ever think of becoming anything other than a lawyer/doctor/enginneer/computer scientist. there are exceedingly few *first rate* muslim mathematicians, linguists, anthropologists, theoretical physicists, etc. i always thought these are the kinds of people who can comment of society, life and how the world works. so why don't more muslims study these? Instead we have engineers and doctors purporting to be experts telling us how everything from quantum physics works to telling us tafsir of the quran. its extremely disturbing, i think. the social commentators of our age on these subjects are thus always nonmuslims and usually athiests. and that means that the intellectual culture even in muslim societies is being shaped by nonmuslims since they follow the "state of the art" reasoning/arguments crafted abroad. |
| Re: Why does every muslim want to be a doctor/engi |
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| jannah |
| 06/17/04 at 19:48:49 |
| [wlm] it's cause that's where the $$ is at... let's face it, most of our parents are recent immigrants who have gone through alot to get us here, and most muslims are struggling just to support their families and all in third world countries. can we condemn them for wanting to have some security and support? but i do know people who are sons/daughters of extremely well-off people and they assumedly could pursue any studies but just want to continue that doctor/engineer tradition interesting points on our development.. it's true there aren't too many muslims in the intellectual/philosophical fields.. |
| Re: Why does every muslim want to be a doctor/engi |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 06/17/04 at 20:09:09 |
| that is kinda funny, but i thought all lithuanians do the same thing - engineers or doctors , I think all immigrants want their kids to do that. |
| Re: Why does every muslim want to be a doctor/engi |
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| bismilla |
| 06/18/04 at 01:30:02 |
| [slm] It may have started out for the sake of security, but i think it has stayed for the sake of pride. Sad really. With all the wacky things happening with food these days, i think we need more Food Technologists too.....to get a handle on the industry. We rely too much on non-muslims assurances of what is and is not Halaal these days. |
| Re: Why does every muslim want to be a doctor/engi |
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| bhaloo |
| 06/18/04 at 02:23:24 |
| [slm] [quote author=hyper link=board=bebzi;num=1087509367;start=0#0 date=06/17/04 at 18:56:07] why do all muslims want to be doctors and engineers. [/quote] *surfer dude voice* like DUH DUDE, that's where all the money is. let's also include lawyers into this category, i think they also make 6 figure incomes, right? but also the smartest and brightest students enter these areas (most of the time, there are a few exceptions). its a given fact. [quote] hamza yusof is very critical of muslims for this -- because engineers/computer scientists always live under this illusion that anything even vaguely logical must surely be right. [/quote] i completely disagree. I would argue the opposite is true. vaguely logical? that is something that a non-technical person would believe, "the concept of vaguely logical must surely be right, because they don't have the knowledge or understanding to think things out thoroughly." [quote] it is particularly disturbing that muslims hardly ever think of becoming anything other than a lawyer/doctor/enginneer/computer scientist. there are exceedingly few *first rate* muslim mathematicians, linguists, anthropologists, theoretical physicists, etc. [/quote] i would categorize mathematicians and physicists in the scientist/engineering category. true they maybe a highly specialized type of engineer, but then again, how many jobs are there for these people? I have some very specialized engineering skills, that not all programmers have, but the jobs in this field are shrinking, so what i have been trying to do, is to to broaden my knowledge in programming so i have access to jobs that any basic programmer would have access to. |
| Re: Why does every muslim want to be a doctor/engi |
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| Lil_Sista |
| 06/18/04 at 05:50:27 |
| [slm] err...well...I'm majoring in international relations :-[ ummm maybe one day wanna be a diplomat or something like that [] inshAllah! how does it sound to ya'll? |
| Re: Why does every muslim want to be a doctor/engi |
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| theOriginal |
| 06/18/04 at 12:00:06 |
| [slm] coz you don't have to compromise your personal philosophical or moral values to become a doctor or engineer...and when you realize that you might have to anyway, it's like hecka late, and you just want to get it over with. yeah and the money thing. although, i don't really think that applies in most cases, since i have full faith in the goodness and unselfishness of human beings. the only thing is, you can't do the logical stuff without the emotional stuff, because it becomes worthless in the grand scheme of things. ah well...don't listen to me. i walked 6 miles today, and i think the sun fried my brain. wasalaam. |
| Re: Why does every muslim want to be a doctor/engi |
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| yumna |
| 06/18/04 at 12:10:41 |
| :D....thats where the big bucks r ????? i don't know i think other professions like astronauts, lawyers,joining the army and bussiness stuff thingys are more money makers ..in pakistan ppl say that there r soo many unemployed doctors that if u pick a stone underneath there will b a doctor ...something like that :) anyway in my opinion the best profession for women is doctor i e medical it gives a person respect and thats y ppl opt more for medical and engineering professions.. |
| Re: Why does every muslim want to be a doctor/engi |
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| superFOB |
| 06/18/04 at 13:23:00 |
| [slm] [quote author=hyper link=board=bebzi;num=1087509367;start=0#0 date=06/17/04 at 18:56:07]why do all muslims want to be doctors and engineers.[/quote] Its the veeeeeeeery tiny middle class minority in the muslim world that we are talking about, right? Here are some reasons--I am sure there are many more--that that hinder muslim excusrions into unchartered waters: 1. Most muslims who emigrate, do so, well after they have their degrees and its difficult to turn back. 2. Immigrants (ex aliens) don't have the luxury to pick and choose, they are looking for well paying jobs to quickly establish themselves and/or to send some moolah back to the motherland. Providing for the family is more important than love for quantum mechanics. Compounded with the color/language stigma, this is the single most important reason for choosing medicine or engineering. 3. Due to the general acceptance of the tradition that tijarah is the best occupation, many turn towards MBAs and many don't bother to get advanced degrees. 4. In the muslim world there is not much appreciation of occupations which don't produce concrete results or don't affect such an impression. Who wants to identify themselves as physical theorists when it doesn't register with the populace? And this culture is "baggaged" to the lands they emigrate to. See how yumna replied? Thats how the children are conditioned. Ask a girl what do you want to become and 9 times out of 10 she'd say "doctor" or "teacher". 5. The english-speaking second generation has, in general, less inclination towards the deen, then their parents. And we have our vicious cycle. 6. Theory is not for the masses, some might find proofs satisfying (I have come across a handful of such individuals) but these types are rare. 7. There is a huge untapped reserve in the form of the teeming millions who are kept illiterate. Maybe your next ghazali is selling guava by the roadside. [quote author=hyper link=board=bebzi;num=1087509367;start=0#0 date=06/17/04 at 18:56:07]hamza yusof is very critical of muslims for this -- because engineers/computer scientists always live under this illusion that anything even vaguely logical must surely be right.[/quote] I am confused here. I was listening to one of his tapes and he literally trashed the modern education system. He used choice critcism for PhDs especially from schools like MIT, Stanford, Berkeley. I don't know how to reconcile these two seemingly tangent thoughts. I am sure adding more context to the statement would help. [quote author=hyper link=board=bebzi;num=1087509367;start=0#0 date=06/17/04 at 18:56:07]it is particularly disturbing that muslims hardly ever think of becoming anything other than a lawyer/doctor/enginneer/computer scientist. there are exceedingly few *first rate* muslim mathematicians, linguists, anthropologists, theoretical physicists, etc. i always thought these are the kinds of people who can comment of society, life and how the world works. so why don't more muslims study these? [/quote] Most of those who do, end up atheists. For instance, Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad does world class research in theoretical physics and from what I heard from graduates, most of the professors have either agnostic or atheist beliefs. It seems to matter little whether they are theoretical physicists or psychology doctors. What is lacking, and that is too glaring to miss, is basic beliefs and a solid understanding of the deen. Secular education sucks and the whole infrastructure to train the masses in religious disciplines is just plain lame. What they have in Pakistan (I can't speak for other countries) is just the Tablighis and although they have done and continue to do a tremendous thankless job they simply can not take the place of a mu'allim. As an aside, the only people who choose disciplines other then engineering are turks and persians. Turks, more so than the Iranians, are heavily into the theoretical physics and mathematical side of things. I guess its because of a more established education base. Turks, btw, are not atheists. The average number of turk atheists is not very different from, say, Pakistan. [quote author=hyper link=board=bebzi;num=1087509367;start=0#0 date=06/17/04 at 18:56:07]Instead we have engineers and doctors purporting to be experts telling us how everything from quantum physics works to telling us tafsir of the quran. its extremely disturbing, i think.[/quote] There was this post on retrograde motion the other day. I didn't have the heart to point out that its not what the poster thinks, but that is symptomatic. [quote author=hyper link=board=bebzi;num=1087509367;start=0#0 date=06/17/04 at 18:56:07]the social commentators of our age on these subjects are thus always nonmuslims and usually athiests. and that means that the intellectual culture even in muslim societies is being shaped by nonmuslims since they follow the "state of the art" reasoning/arguments crafted abroad.[/quote] Well, the Prophet (SAW) was not a philosopher, neither was he a theorist. Unless we have an education system based on our tradition, I don't see how any good is going to come out of higher education. To put this into perspective, we had a lady lecturer, MA in Islamic studies, teaching us undergrad level Islamic studies, without the proper hijab! I'd put the blame on the education system than on the lecturer though. Anyways, I prefer to stick to the more traditional belief that no matter what you do, you have to end up in the grave. Thats what counts and thats what you have to prepare for. |
| 06/18/04 at 19:06:18 |
| superFOB |
| Re: Why does every muslim want to be a doctor/engi |
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| lucid9 |
| 06/18/04 at 18:43:26 |
| [quote author=bhaloo link=board=bebzi;num=1087509367;start=0#4 date=06/18/04 at 02:23:24] i completely disagree. I would argue the opposite is true. vaguely logical? that is something that a non-technical person would believe, "the concept of vaguely logical must surely be right, because they don't have the knowledge or understanding to think things out thoroughly." [/quote] actually, no offense to engineers/cs types, but engineers and comp sci folks have really shoddy standards for logic and rigour. **hyper ducks for cover** they think anything with an single line of evidence or a single argument supporting it means its true...!! **hyper ducks for cover again** [quote] i would categorize mathematicians and physicists in the scientist/engineering category. [/quote] sorry again, but nothing could be more insulting to a mathematician or physicist than to be called an engineer!!! they have little in common!! (i am only quoting what others say :) ) other points: (1) there are actually not many turkish theoretical physicists. however, there are lots of iranians. and my experience with them has often been very bad. many are athiests. yesterday i was eating dinner, and three iranian theoretical physicist professor types were sitting in the adjoining table eating pork and drinking wine. and the female professer was dressed in pretty revealing attire. what made me mad was these people live in iran, and were only visiting the west for a few days, and this is how they behave. actually the reason for the post was cuz i was bit peeved at the muslim mathematicians and theoretical physicist types. (2) the folks in qaid-i-azam don't do particularly interesting stuff. and the reason why they are so smashed up is because of intellectual leaders like parvez hoodboy. when you have leaders like that, and all the clever religious muslims flock to engineering and medicine -- that's what you get, and i suppose deserve as well. as Bill Parcells said with his foot in his mouth, no offense to y'all...no offense intended...:) |
| Re: Why does every muslim want to be a doctor/engi |
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| ft |
| 06/18/04 at 20:58:36 |
| [slm] In Pakistan, after you pass grade 10. The next step is college. In colleges you have three choices. Pre-Medical, Pre-Engineering and if you can't get into those then Arts. |
| Re: Why does every muslim want to be a doctor/engi |
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| Doha_03 |
| 06/19/04 at 02:08:57 |
| Assalaam Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh.. THANK YOU! Some of the things said in this thread are things that I have wanted to explain to people for *so* long. I am 15 alhamdulilah and the time for choosing "career pathways" in high school has come. They want you to have at least an idea of the path (ie communications, the sciences, businees, etc). Try explaining to an old-fashioned Yemeni (my dad) that you want to be something other than a doctor...it's harder than you think. Some parents have the old-fashioned, overseas mentality that big names= money, and success, and somehow that is supposed to make you happy. I can name so many people who are kicking themselves because they listened to their parents and became engineers. And I can name people who "went against the family grain" and became something else, and are very happy for doing so. Money and big names doesn't always equal happiness. Maybe some people are happy when they are helping people, maybe they don't exactly want a masters degree in that. A lot of it has to do with pride. I know someone who wanted to be a nurse. She told her father and he refused to let her. Why, you might ask? Because he didn't want to tell his doctor family back home that his daughter was "just a nurse." ::) Puh-lease... It's that mindset that puts us in the situation we are today. If you get hurt or need your computer fixed, I could name *so* many Muslims that can help you out there. But if you have family or marital problems, or a psychological problem, can you name as many qualified Muslims? Have you looked at the Islamic schools and some of the masajid lately? How many have qualified and/or trained psychologists and therapists? Not nearly as many engineers and doctors. What about abused victims and youth especially who just need someone to talk to? Do most of them have some type of Muslim counselor to do that? No. Why? Because people are too caught up in money and big names. And then someone asks you what you want to be when you "grow-up" and you get the whole.." ::) That's it? No, no be a doctor. (enter profession here) don't make as much money and aren't as successful." Once again....Puh-lease.. ::) The youth are our future. They are tomorrow. They set the trend for what is to come. If the idea is instilled into them that money and big names = happiness and pride, what is to come? We need more religous scholars (especially female), we need more socialogists, and psychologists and all those other "ologists" :P Don't get me wrong. Doctors and engineers are great as well. Heck my dad and brother are engineers and my other brother is a chemist. But sometimes... Sorry. Forgive me for my rambling. But this subject hit too close to home. InshaAllah Khair though. Wasalaam Alaikum, Doha |
| 06/19/04 at 02:23:18 |
| Doha_03 |
| Re: Why does every muslim want to be a doctor/engi |
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| yumna |
| 06/19/04 at 07:55:17 |
| my point *well put* sis doha! :-* |
| Re: Why does every muslim want to be a doctor/engi |
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| Medo |
| 06/21/04 at 22:37:11 |
| *ahem* [slm] Wow! Well put Doha... :-* Hey! I want to be a teacher, but my mom and dad want me to become a Doctor... and sometimes I think ::) but the money is good right? BUT! What about the lifestyle? Happiness, where is that? Wouldn't you rather have happiness/lifestyle or money and no lifestyle. Right? Am I right?! Anyways, I'm becoming a teacher, I hope.. ehehe :P [slm] |
| Re: Why does every muslim want to be a doctor/engi |
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| Doha_03 |
| 06/22/04 at 02:13:15 |
| Wa Alaikum Assalaam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh.. JazakAllah Khair for your comments guys...I need a blushing smiley. :) I'd *much* rather be happy with what I did and not make much or any money (even if I'm just a volunteer at the masjid or a housewife), then to be someone who made a lot of money, but hated what they did. (that was kinda confusing.) :)Happiness and contentment is key, even if you aren't making much money. Good Luck brother, and may Allah make things easier for you and grant you what is best. Ameen Ya Rabb Al 3alameen. I am *very* indecisive. And I'm not kidding when I say *very*. I change career choices regularly and it takes me *forever* to pick things out. I'm always second-guessing myself. ::) But inshaAllah everything works out okay and I am :-* Wasalaam Alaikum, Doha |
| Re: Why does every muslim want to be a doctor/engi |
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| flyboy_nz |
| 06/22/04 at 06:42:26 |
| [slm] ;-)& :-) [quote]why do all muslims want to be doctors and engineers. [/quote] Perhaps this should be changed to "why to all muslim parents want their kids to be..."? Heck I remember my parents dreaming that I'd be a doctor! [quote]With all the wacky things happening with food these days, i think we need more Food Technologists too.....to get a handle on the industry. [/quote] Yup too true... well alhamdulillah I ended up being a Food Techie, kinda by mistake, but I certainly don't regret it! I'd seriously recommend it as a rewarding career choice to all those would-be docs and eng's.... strange tho, my parents still want me to go and do my PhD so I can add "Dr" in front of my name- how PRETENTIOUS would that be?! Food Tech is the way to go! ;) [wlm], ;-) AHMED |
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