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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Debating with catholics |
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| humble_muslim |
| 06/21/04 at 12:01:23 |
| AA According to the Quran, Christians worship Mary : And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. (Chapter 5, v116). But if you ask a catholic about this, they will say they don't worship Mary. TEEN Question: (2 of 10) Is it wrong to pray to Mary and the Saints? Bible Geek's Answer: Just to make it very clear up front, Catholics and Protestants believe and command that we are to pray to God constantly, and without reservation. We agree on that. The Catholic Church does not and has not encouraged folks to take their attention or prayer off of or away from Jesus. The confusion on the part of most non-Catholics stems from a misinterpretation of what is truly happening when a Catholic invites Mary (and/or the saints in Heaven) to pray to Christ on their behalf. Let’s dive right in… 1. It’s important to explain that there are different natures of prayer. Prayer to God includes worship (that He is obviously due). Prayer with Mary and the saints includes honor, not worship. A prayer is a petition, like in old English when someone would say something like, “I pray thee, tell me to what thine problem is?” or “What, pray tell, is the problem?” 2. The saints in Heaven are alive and are perpetually in prayer. They are absolutely living in Heaven, just as you and I live, but to an even fuller extent, in that they are back home with God. They are far closer to God than we are, as sinful humans walking the earth. The saints in Heaven are free of all sin which hinders our prayers (Mt 17:20, 1 Jn 3:22, Ps 66:18) and they are in a totally perfect union with God. It’s less a matter of praying to Mary as much as it is praying with or through Mary. 3. We are commanded and encouraged in scripture to pray for others and for one another. Where most people get confused, however, is that they quote something like 1 Timothy 2:5 speaking about how Christ is the only Mediator between man and God (which the Catholic Church agrees with, by the way) but they never take the time to read or really take to heart the four verses immediately preceding that verse, 1 Timothy 2:1-4. 4. It is important to realize what we are and are not saying when we say that we ask our Mother Mary and the saints to pray for us. Christ is the primary mediator, and prayers on our behalf to Christ by either saints living in Heaven, or friends living on Earth (fulfilling the command in scripture to pray for each other) would be called a secondary mediation. That’s what St. Paul is talking about throughout his epistles, like in Romans 15:30-32, Col 1:4,9-10 and 2 Cor 1:10…(want a couple more? Try Romans 10:1, and 2 Tim. 1: Suggestions, anyone, as to how to respond to this type of response? |
| NS |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| lala |
| 06/21/04 at 15:23:08 |
| [slm] for a time when I was younger I attended catholic church..if you asked me then if I worshipped mary or the prophet jesus i would have said no. Most catholics would say no...because they do believe in one GOD . However, their level of worship is not as direct as ours is. I"m not sure how you would answer such a thing. What I have noticed is that you dont want to offend people especially if they believe in strongly in their bible and teachings. IF you arent familiar with the Hail Mary prayer here it is: ' Hail Mary full of grace the lord is with thee. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb jesus. Holy mary mother of god pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death .." Now is this worshipping Mary? I guess in a sense it is esteeming her with great honor ...but isnt the one praying merely asking her to pray for 'us' rather than 'granting us someting..? I just realized thats what your question is..;D Anyhow back to the topic... God has no mediators.. Noone can intercede on his behalf...He is our ultimate judge, he is the master, and he alone should we answer too... ..I guess that wouldnt satisfy ... I gave it a shot ..someone more learned on this topic should answer. I"m done peace |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| Nadeem |
| 06/21/04 at 18:48:38 |
| [slm] Well as far as I understood it, Catholics worship Jesus as God, the Son of God, A part of the Trinity Godhead. Mary is acknowledged by Catholics as the mother of Jesus. Doesn't logic dictate that if one worships God, and the Father, wouldn't one also worship the mother of God? [wlm] |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 06/21/04 at 19:21:34 |
| Nadeem, not really. But it all depends on the catholic. Most catholics are fairly ignorant on what the bible teaches. I used to be catholic decades ago (weird to think it as decades) and I was never taught to worship Mary, but we did pray the "Hail Mary". I do however think that some catholics do pray to Mary in a weird sence. Logic dictates to me that since God is perfect our prayers will be answered perfectly (although it may not be answered to our immediate liking) and interceding with Mary does not make any sense. That probably is no help at all Hamayoun, so sorry about that! |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| Sara_R |
| 06/21/04 at 21:51:12 |
| [slm] As someone raised Catholic.. I can say that there is not official policy to worshop Mary. BUT people often get things confused with what is the 'official' line. Individual groups or families may transfer that to Mary, and see Mary as some extension.. if the Catholics have the Trinity (Jesus is some extension of God or is God.., I've never understood the logic of it all myself) its easy to get confused. I also think that often there is a cultural angle where groups that were 'converted' during colonialism retained their traditions of the emphasis on the mother and often saw Mary as this figure. And then there are the sections/groups that barely mention Mary or women in general. So it varies. If you go to some churches you may pray to the statue of Jesus on the cross and there often are statues of Mary and other saints as well. But most prayer is directed towards the image of Jesus. There may certainly be ecclectic groups that face Mary or perceived image of Mary. Although it is interesting that the Holy Quran has Mary in a special place. And actually gives more recognition to her that in many Christian traditions. That is why many women left Christianity and reverted to Islam was that women are valued in a way the other religions did not get quite right. 8) |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 06/21/04 at 23:29:44 |
| [slm] Satan has used every trick in the book to veil the Truth from man, and to trick him into worshipping things/objects/beings other than God. So, often times man does not intend to *worship* other than God, yet everything he does is worship in essence. It is association of partners with God in God's eyes, even though man himself might be veiled from that reality because of his blind attachment to his own enemy - Satan. The Jews have put their rabbis and religious leaders in such a high pedestal that their word is Law for them, even if it contradicts their holy books. And thus the Qur'an criticizes them for *worshipping* their rabbis along with God. When a companion of the Prophet [saw], who was a Jew before embracing Islam, insisted to him that the Jews didn't worship their rabbis, the Prophet [saw] told him that the fact that they allowed their rabbis to make things permitted or forbidden for them over the Law of God was in essence worshipping them. The pre-Islamic polytheists of Arabia believed in God and worshipped Him. They believed Him to be the sole Creator and Sustainer of the universe. However, Satan deceived them into believing that they were not good enough to talk to God and invoke Him directly, and that they should instead use sacred objects and figures to draw closer to God. So, they started using idols. They would argue that they do not worship them, but simply use them to draw nearer to the One God. That it is Him that they worship, but only *through* those idols. However, God despises and rejects any intermediaries. He wants men to talk to Him directly, to pray to Him directly, because He is near and He listens. Thus the Qur'an criticized the actions of those in Arabia (see Surah al-Zumar, etc), and called them mushriks [polytheists], and warned them of eternal punishment if they didn't mend their ways. The deviants among the sufis have taken the graves of saints as their objects of worship. They visit these graves, prostrate in front of them, invoke the saints who lie therein, and ask them for help, aid and salvation. They argue that they do not worship the graves themselves, nor the dead saints, but they invoke them to intercede to God on their behalf. And thus they claim that they worship only God, but use the saints to draw nearer to God. You can see the ironic similarities between them and the idol worshippers of pre-Islamic Arabia, and thus their act is also rejected by Islam (as our scholars have proved so convincingly and often painstakingly ... among them Imam Malik, Shafi'ee, Ahmad, Ibn Taimiyah, Ibn al-Qayyim, Ibn Jawzee, Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab, and others). Thus, my dear brother Humayoun, many Catholics also do not admit that they worship Mary. Yet we are told by our Prophet and God Himself that what they do is indeed worship, even if they don't admit it. God is Forgiving, Loving and Near. He responds to the call of the supplicant, when He is invoked. He listens to the cry of His faithful servant when He invokes him in solace, and allows and loves for them to be intimate with Him. His Mercy is so great that it is nothing but sheer ingratitude and disloyalty for humans to disregard and belittle it. He has made Himself available to human beings - though He didn't have to - and loves for them to seek His forgiveness and bounties. He is there to give, and then give some more! He decends *every night* to the lowest heaven and calls out if anyone will ask Him so that He may give, if there's anyone who will repent so that He may accept their repentance. Imagine how disrespectful and ungrateful it would be to hear that Call of the Lord Himself, and yet, instead of responding to that Call and saying "here I am O Lord, at your service. Please do not turn me away. Please engulf me with your Compassion and Mercy. Please forgive me. Please don't abandon me on the Day I meet you. Please include me among your Loved servants in the Hereafter. Please don't deprive me of your Company in the Life to come. Here I am O Lord. At your service, and your service alone." Instead of saying that, imagine how ungrateful it would be to turn to another being, another human, dead or alive, and say, "I can't respond to Him. I'm too embarassed/weak. He's too distant. You go and ask Him on my behalf." And you beg that person, using words such as "I pray," kneeling, prostrating, shedding tears in front of them. And there is God, looking at you do all this, with your back turned to Him, and your face and heart bowed in front of who? A creation of His, who itself is in need of Him and His Mercy! Subhan Allah! Isn't shirk ugly?! Laa ilaha illallah. May Allah (swt) help us all see Truth as Truth, and help us overcome the deceptions of Satan. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 06/21/04 at 23:41:23 |
| [i][color=black]O you who complain to people about your misfortunes, what good will it do you to complain to creatures? They can bring you neither benefit nor harm. If you rely on them and associate partners with the Lord of the Truth, they will make you distant from HIm, cause you to fall into His displeasure. -- Abdul Qadir Jilani [/color][/i] |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| bhaloo |
| 06/22/04 at 00:09:35 |
| [slm] Mashallah, Abu Hamza's post is good. Here are 2 verses from the Quran to reflect on and see why God has cursed them. Quran 9:30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! Quran 9:31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| MIT |
| 06/22/04 at 06:01:35 |
| assalaamu alaikum Good post Abu Hamza, its just what i would have said: to ask what then is the similarity between a Catholic who 'prays' through Mary and a Hindu who prays through Hanuman or any of the other myriad of gods they 'worship through?' |
| NS |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| Nadeem |
| 06/22/04 at 08:49:38 |
| [slm] [quote author=Abu_Hamza link=board=lighthouse;num=1087830084;start=0#5 date=06/21/04 at 23:29:44]The pre-Islamic polytheists of Arabia believed in God and worshipped Him. They believed Him to be the sole Creator and Sustainer of the universe. However, Satan deceived them into believing that they were not good enough to talk to God and invoke Him directly, and that they should instead use sacred objects and figures to draw closer to God. So, they started using idols. They would argue that they do not worship them, but simply use them to draw nearer to the One God. [/quote] This is very similar to what Hindus say in response to claims that they are polythesists. Very good post mashallah, bro. Jazakallah. [wlm] |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| humble_muslim |
| 06/22/04 at 14:06:25 |
| AA Mahsallah, nice response Abu Hamza. In the role of a so-called "devil's advocate", a couple of follow up questions. Just pretend I'm the catholic. 1. Surely it's not worshipping someone to ask that person to pary for him. I mean you muslims do this yourself, on this biard you are always requesting each other to pray for you. So we believe that Mary is in heaven, and can hear our calls to make paryer for us directly to God. Why do you consider this worshipping Mary? Does that not mean that any request for someone to pray to you is also worship? 2. Maybe that verse in the Quran does not refer to worshipping Mary in the sense we do it, but when people actually believe that Mary can answer their prayers, which some ignorant Chrsitians may believe. And finally, a question from me. You said : "Thus their act is also rejected by Islam (as our scholars have proved so convincingly and often painstakingly ... among them Imam Malik, Shafi'ee, Ahmad, Ibn Taimiyah, Ibn al-Qayyim, Ibn Jawzee, Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab, and others)" Can you give me some refernces to Ibn al-Qayyim and Ibn Jawzee concerning this? |
| NS |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 06/22/04 at 16:14:04 |
| Assalamu alaikum, [quote]Can you give me some refernces to Ibn al-Qayyim and Ibn Jawzee concerning this? [/quote] Br. Humble Muslim, such references are hard to find for English speakers. But if you can read Arabic books, or even Urdu books, then see Ibn al-Jawzee's Talbees Iblees. I know that there is an abridged translation of that work in English (The Devil's Deceit [or Deception, I forget]), but from my recollection, that miniature translation does not contain a discussion on this. The original work has a *lot* more than the English translation of that book. As for Ibnul Qayyim, see Zaad al-Ma'aad, the part where he talks about Ahkaam al-Janaa'iz. This work has been translated into English by Jalal Abulrubb. It's volume 4 in his translation I believe. Wassalamu alaikum |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| UmmWafi |
| 06/22/04 at 21:37:32 |
| [slm] [quote]The deviants among the sufis have taken the graves of saints as their objects of worship. They visit these graves, prostrate in front of them, invoke the saints who lie therein, and ask them for help, aid and salvation. They argue that they do not worship the graves themselves, nor the dead saints, but they invoke them to intercede to God on their behalf. And thus they claim that they worship only God, but use the saints to draw nearer to God. You can see the ironic similarities between them and the idol worshippers of pre-Islamic Arabia, and thus their act is also rejected by Islam (as our scholars have proved so convincingly and often painstakingly ... among them Imam Malik, Shafi'ee, Ahmad, Ibn Taimiyah, Ibn al-Qayyim, Ibn Jawzee, Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab, and others).[/quote] Firstly, my sincere apologies for this untimely intervention. However, the practice of intercession amongst Muslims is a topic that has been discussed (and argued) since God knows when, even here. Although I have yet to make any firm conclusions on the topic (seeing as how I am still learning), I still believe that there should be certain adab when we discuss a topic of such importance like faith and theology. It is fine if you have an opinion or have made conclusions about something. Still, at the end of the day, we are all learners and as learners we should always remember the first cardinal rule. Knowledge begins in knowing how much we do not know. To call these sufis deviant and to gainsay their niyyah despite the fact they have clarified themselves is, in my opinion, not only premature but also harbouring shu' zan against them. Unless you or I or anyone here can safely declare that he or she has had the opportunity to spend years studying the subject and is an authority on it, then all we can claim to now is that we have some ideas about this based on our limited readings. The scholars mentioned above were all excellent examples of intellectual Muslims but for everyone of them, there are 10 more also excellent and intellectual ones out there, who may or may not have expounded on this issue and concluded differently. We may agree or not agree with them but still, respect is due to them. It is not my niyyah to lecture but merely to remind each other, myself first and foremost, that knowledge, 'ilm, hidayah, hikmah, these are all blessings from Allah SWT and form part of our rizq. Inshaa Allah, with all other rizq, we will be grateful and treat it wisely to further the cause of Islaam. Wassalam |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| MIT |
| 06/23/04 at 07:08:40 |
| [quote]To call these sufis deviant and to gainsay their niyyah despite the fact they have clarified themselves is, in my opinion, not only premature but also harbouring shu' zan against them.[/quote] assalaamu alaikum I don't understand this bit. They clarified themselves by informing us that they invoke the dead (and those who cannot hear) to bring themselves closer to Allah, OR a clarification that is mentioned off-thread? "And those who take awliya others than Allah say: 'We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah.'" [39:3] That is Allah quoting the polytheists. PS Abu_Hamza, I stumbled upon the hadith you referred to yesterday, and it wasn't a Jewish convert, but a Christian one: Adee ibn Haatim. |
| NS |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| UmmWafi |
| 06/23/04 at 07:34:20 |
| [wlm] The point of my post I guess was more to remind myself than others that our knowledge of things are non-exhaustive. My concern was more about the presentation of these section of Sufis in Abu Hamza's post as this topic is not as simple as it may appear to be. There wasn't any offline clarifications, just my contact with excellent literature on this issue. I must apologise, however, because perhaps my post deviates the whole point of bro Humble Muslim thread. Afwan |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| timbuktu |
| 06/24/04 at 10:40:48 |
| [slm] for 24 years i have seen these sufi practices every day, because for one hour and a quarter going to work, and one hour and a quarter coming back, I see these mazaars and darbars and their attendees. I have lived with sufis, read their literature, attended their urs, seen what goes on and what their beliefs are, talked to them, heard their explanations, and wondered why Allah (swt) is not more angry with us. Every day i have felt this pain as I see people praying to the dead, and at times when I have spoken, I have been threatend with death. sister Umm Wafi, I wish you came to a conclusion soon. There is no doubt in my mind that many I see are involved in shirk, and that their writings also point to this. |
| 06/24/04 at 11:03:31 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 06/24/04 at 12:28:31 |
| Hamayoun, I think that you can see from these posts that it is not easy debating with someone from another faith and telling them what is wrong with their faith and belief system. I was catholic and i can tell you there is a huge variance in what individual catholics believe. Just as i can see the variance in what muslims believe. I guess i can conclude that some muslims pray to the dead. Or would you not call them muslims? Some catholics i know do, but most do not. Be careful of getting your interpretations of someone elses religion from someone who is not part of that faith. As a Christian i would never worship Mary, i think that would be obvious to most if not all christians outside the catholic faith. I would think that those that do in the catholic faith do so out of incomplete knowledge of the faith |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| superFOB |
| 06/24/04 at 14:33:20 |
| [slm] Here we go again. I put the blame squarely on our respected brother admin for lumping christians with muslims. Humayoun asked something about catholics and here we have an out of place attack on sufis (whatever that means) which betrays a lack of admin etiquette, imho. Speaking of branding muslims as mushriks, this is something I observe frequently among our salafi friends and I am always shocked at such recklessness. Why can't we realize that once we label a muslim as mushrik, regardless of the depth or shallowness of our claims, we are closing many doors on them AND on ourselves. |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| humble_muslim |
| 06/24/04 at 15:34:24 |
| AA Oh maaaaaaaaan, BIG SIGH. Confession time. This was all a ploy by me. Let me explain. I'm sure you all know the story of Hassan and Hussain when they saw a man doing wudu incorrectly. In order to make him realise what he was doing wrong, they said to him "Can you teach us how to make wudu?", instead of launching into him like a sledgehammer. Well, I have been thinking a lot about tawassul. And I remembered the ayat from the Quran I quoted. And then I read what Catholics say about "worshipping" Mary. So I though I could make a point here - that what the catholics say about Mary, in spite of the Quran calling it worship, is similar to what some muslims say about tawasul to the awliya of Allah. But I knew I would not be allowed to say this explicity on this board without either causing a rumpus or the thread being locked. So I tried to do it the "Hassan and Hussain" way, and somehow get people to reach the same conclusion without offending them and without using the "sledgehammer" approach, but just by pointing out the facts about Mary. So I apologize if this approach has backfired, and offended people. I'm especially sorry that Abu Hamza got caught up in this unawares, and was made out to be the "bad guy" here, when it was really me all along. My intention was pure, and I tried to use wisdom, but somehow this din't end up the way I invisaged it. If I get banned from this forum for doing this ... it's been nice knowing all of you! |
| NS |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 06/24/04 at 18:11:32 |
| i think super fob was refering to me not abu hamza. no one would ever say anything negative about him anyways. Let me be the fall guy. I don't mind at all!!! and if you get banned I promise that i will start a movement to .................oh never mind. good luck if you get banned!!! |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| timbuktu |
| 06/25/04 at 09:18:12 |
| [slm] I saw through the ploy bro HM :) and using such baits isn't (probably) against the rules. It is I who has used the word "shirk", but I didn't say if a particular person were Mushrik. I don't call them so. I am friends with many, and as I said, my inlaws are into sufism. but there is great pain in my heart. It came to the fore because after two years I took the same route and saw the same things, only bigger. It hurt. and let me admit that among the people I know as best in knowledge and practice of Tawheed are some members of the Tablighi Jamaat, the softly, softly approach of which has clarified the issues to many. So let this appreciation be on record, since it also known that I have issues with this Jamaat. |
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| bhaloo |
| 06/25/04 at 23:19:45 |
| [quote author=superFOB link=board=lighthouse;num=1087830084;start=10#17 date=06/24/04 at 14:33:20] Here we go again. I put the blame squarely on our respected brother admin for lumping christians with muslims . Humayoun asked something about catholics and here we have an out of place attack on sufis (whatever that means) which betrays a lack of admin etiquette, imho. [/quote] The only admin that has posted in this thread has been me, and the only admin that is a brother on this board is me, so becareful who you attack and accuse of not having etiquette. Heed your own advice and read things carefully before attacking and blaming others FALSELY. Your last paragraph in your post, FOB attacked another group, why didn't you heed your own advice. Instead of pointing out the mistakes of others, correct your own. As for the issue of tawassul, it is an issue I usually stay out of though I have had many discussions on it in the past, not on this board though. I think many would be shocked to hear what Sheikh Abdul Wahhab's view is on this issue, its not what many would expect, though he often is slandered. As for the book Abu Hamza mentioned, Tablis Iblis by Ibn Jawzi, translated as Devil's Deception by Dr. Bilal Phillips, does not include this section. There is a translation out there called the Devil's Deceit by someone of the sufi persuasion, in some large collection (the whole collection costs $260) that does have this section translated, though I'm not sure how he addressed certain issues that Ibn Jawzi brought up. I admit I am a little curious. I'm sure we've all heard of the SAHIH hadith how a person's deeds stop after they have died, except for 3 things (sadaqah jariya, a righteous son that prays for the parent, and some beneficial knowledge). The point is, why would one go to a grave seeking the benefit from the occupant of the grave, when we know that the occupants deeds have stopped? |
| 06/26/04 at 00:39:41 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| UmmWafi |
| 06/26/04 at 07:29:24 |
| [slm] The so-called "ploy" was so painfully obvious which was why I didn't reply to the original post because we have had a discussion on tawassul before. The only thing that prompted a response from me was my concern about how we approach knowledge and what we do with it. Period, nothing to do with whether what was being done is actually tawassul or not and whether it was right or wrong. Bro Timbuktu, thank you for your concern and your experiences, I truly appreciate it :) The thing is, we often equate what we see, what we hear, what we experience and what we learn as being reality as in Truth. Sometimes we even interpret "our" truths as the sum total of Truth. However, what we perceive and experience is sometimes very separate and different from what Truth actually is. I have no intention of taking away the seriousness of what you encountered and experienced with the people you mentioned. I am just very worried about generalising about something we don't have sufficient knowledge of. Regardless of what you experienced Bro, ask yourself how much you truly know about Sufism and Sufistic practices. In every group, sect, leanings etc, there will always be polars. The extremes and the passives. Even amongst the best of fuqaha, you have the extremists and the apologists. The Salafis, Sufis and what-have-yous all have their share of these people. Despite them, or rather, in spite of them, there will always lie open one alternative : sincere search. At my age and with my very very limited knowledge, I very much doubt that I am intellectually capable of making definitive conclusions about something like this. Perhaps I have my preliminary thoughts, but that is what those are. Thoughts. Certainly not in any way what Truth actually is :) Methinks this thread is going nowhere. I could, of course, be wrong. I can deal with that. Wassalam. |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| timbuktu |
| 06/26/04 at 07:53:14 |
| [slm] sis UmmWafi, if beliefs and practices were to be left so undetermined, Allah (swt) would not have sent the prophets (pbut), and particularly the last one (pbuh) see the little story by me in the Shahada bookstore :) http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=library;action=display;num=1088246867 |
| 06/26/04 at 09:06:26 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Debating with catholics |
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| jannah |
| 06/26/04 at 12:30:49 |
| wlm, Let me add Tawassul to the banned topics list since it directly leads to the same sufi/salafi whatever debate stuff repeatedly. Please take it offline inshaAllah. Jazakamullahu khairan. |
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