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Teach me arabic pronunciation
timbuktu
08/16/04 at 08:58:00
[slm] you know we Indo-Pak wallahs have some curious ways of pronouncing the arabic letters. I don't know why, but all my life the letters: С Ö¡ Ù¡ Ò have sounded the same to me. I read that Ð  is to be pronounced as "th", but to me Ï sounds just like "th". What then is the difference between these two? is  Ð  like  Ïå as in ÏæÏå or is there some hint of the "z" sound as well? please help. Thanks

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
al-ajnabia
08/16/04 at 12:38:48
[slm] i can never keep them straight myself, of cource it didnt help that the people who taught me deliberately made it confusing and probably taught me backwards to begin with, and just as I am phonemicly challanged in arabic I have often found myself morphemicly challanged as well, also due to funny business, but in studying second language speech if you are just consistant, stay in the general phonemic ball bark and just reisgn yourself to the fact that you are going to confuse the bejesus out of arabic speakers and only the most patient will be able to tollerate you any way you should be fine. the same goes for english as well. cant see as this is any help but just thought I would share.

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
Taalibatul_ilm
08/16/04 at 14:40:13
[wlm] The letter ÐÇá is like the hard th, as in the word THE.  As you know in English, there is a soft th (as in thank) and a hard one.   There is no z in it, and this is a common mistake in pronunciation made by many Muslims.   ÙÇÁ uses the same articluation point as the ÐÇá, but has a much heavier sound.  This sound is achieved by raising the back part of the tongue up. The Ò is like the English z in zebra.   The ÖÇÏ is unique to the Arabic language.  It is also a letter often mispronounced by many Muslims.  The tip of the tongue is not used when pronouncing this, instead the side or sides of the tongue hit the upper molar area. It takes practice. If you want more details: http://www.abouttajweed.com/sidetongue.htm http://www.abouttajweed.com/tiptong03.htm http://www.abouttajweed.com/tiptong04.htm

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
timbuktu
08/16/04 at 20:47:12
[slm] and ÔßÑÇ and ÌÒÇßì Çááå ÎíÑÇ is that right? [quote]The letter ÐÇá is like the hard th, as in the word THE.  As you know in English, there is a soft th (as in thank) and a hard one.   There is no z in it, and this is a common mistake in pronunciation made by many Muslims.[/quote] I got the point about Ö, and that there is no “z” in С but confusion persists about: Ï¡ С and Ë how can they all be pronounced like “th”? I thought that THE has a soft th sound, and that the “thank” and “think” have the hard “th” sound with the letter “h” mixed in. So how is Ï¡ different from С and Ë :confused: please don't be annoyed. I have read that online tajweed book, and another very good one, but I guess I may have become a slow and maybe retarded learner now, and your explanations will help, insha`Allah :)

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
Taalibatul_ilm
08/16/04 at 23:25:11
[slm] ÏÇá is very different from  ÐÇá in sound.  The ÐÇá uses the top of the tip of the tongue and the bottom edges of the two top front teeth.  The sound like in "th" is the hard th, because there is air that comes on with the soft 'th" like thank.   ËÇÁ uses the same articulation point as ÐÇá  but air runs with it, so it is a softer sound. ÏÇá is pronounced by the top of the tip hitting the gum line (in back) of the top two front teeth. There should be no air coming out. It is similar in sound to the English D, but the English D is articulated further back from the teeth. All I can do for the hard and soft th is post the following: th     is a two-letter spelling of two single consonant sounds, made identically except that one is voiced, as in thy (pronounced THEI), the other voiceless, as in thigh (pronounced THEI). These two can also occur medially, as in this pair: either (pronounced EE-thuhr or EI-thuhr) and ether (pronounced EE-thuhr). Phoneticians usually represent the voiced sound with the Old English letter called an eth () and the voiceless sound with the Greek letter theta (). (The words eth and theta themselves contain the same voiced and voiceless sounds respectively.) http://www.bartleby.com/68/80/5980.html The "th" in the word thy is like the Arabic ÐÇá The "th" in the word thigh is like the Arabic ËÇÁ
08/16/04 at 23:28:07
Taalibatul_ilm

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
timbuktu
08/17/04 at 09:45:29
[slm] shukran sister that was very clear, and I will try to practice so I don't forget. Now, if you don't think I am taking liberties, can you tell me the difference between Õ and Ó and between Ê and Ø thanks again
08/17/04 at 09:47:34
timbuktu

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
Taalibatul_ilm
08/17/04 at 10:40:18
[slm] No problem, brother. The Õ and Ó have the same articulation point, and the difference between the two is that the ÕÇÏ has heaviness -done by raising up the back portion of the tongue- called tafkheem in Arabic, and the sound is compressed. The difference between the Ê and Ø is similar-they share the same articulation point and the ØÇÁ has the heaviness and compression and the ÊÇÁ does not.  There is one other difference, the ÊÇÁ has air running with its pronunciation, most noted when it has no vowel on it, and the ØÇÁ does not have running of air.

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
timbuktu
08/18/04 at 01:09:43
[slm] thanks a lot, sister and I will come back when I have more problems. :)
08/18/04 at 01:19:57
timbuktu

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
Nadeem
08/18/04 at 12:19:36
[slm] Umm, guys, does anyone else see Greek letters in the above posts instead of Arabic? :( Do I need to get some special download in order to see the Arabic letters in this thread?  If so, does anyone know where I can get this from? Jazakallah [wlm]

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
Saam
08/18/04 at 12:25:28
[slm] Brother Nadeem, if you are using internet explorer you need to go to the top menu bar.  Go to View>>Encoding>>Arabic (Windows) Insha'Allah, that will solve your problem... should be something similar for netscape and other browsers. Wassalaam, Saam  ;-)

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
workingmuslimah
08/18/04 at 14:02:14
[slm] J.A.K. for posting the info about View> Encoding. That helped me see the letters under discussion here. I tried to do the same in Outlook Express (because people keep sending me stuff in Arabic that appears as garbled Latin characters) but the "Encoding" option is "greyed out." Is there any way to overcome that?

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
Nadeem
08/18/04 at 14:18:21
[slm] [quote author=Saam link=board=lighthouse;num=1092657480;start=0#9 date=08/18/04 at 12:25:28] [slm] Brother Nadeem, if you are using internet explorer you need to go to the top menu bar.  Go to View>>Encoding>>Arabic (Windows) Insha'Allah, that will solve your problem... should be something similar for netscape and other browsers. Wassalaam, Saam  ;-)[/quote] For months now, I've been wondering how to overcome this, and I really wanted to understand this thread in particular. Jazakallah khair, brother. :) You made my day  [] [wlm]

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
Trustworthy
08/19/04 at 03:35:07
[slm]... Like broken English comes broken Arabic.  No matter how I try to help my fellow people try to pronounce the Arabic letters correctly, they're just old school and cannot denote the annunciation becuase my native tongue has none.  Like Pepsi and Bebzi.  When I try to speak my native tongue, I sound like an American trying to speak a foreign language.  It's sad I know, but Arabic I can handle. However, it's the rules in reading the Qur'an I sometimes have trouble with.  Can we do that here too? 1.  Alif: a....3ain: a'a, sharp throat thrust....hamza: a', short lesser throat thrust 2. Dal and Dod and Thhhod 3. Kaf and Cof swallow throat thrust 4. Ta and To' 5. Tha and Tho and Za 6. Seen and sod, graceful throat thrust Oosh cha' transliteration is really bad, but that's how I taught myself Arabic until I found out I was annunciating incorrectly and my Uncle (Egyptian-not blood) taught me how to say them correctly. Oh...but these 2 letters still confuse me. The Ha and Ha (throat), don't know which is which.  Someone help me out please for I do not have Arabic fonts installed. Jazakh.... Many du'as and Allah (SWT) bless... Ma-assalaamah.....

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
Taalibatul_ilm
08/19/04 at 07:30:38
[slm] The throat thrusts have me a little confused.  Seen and Saad don't use the throat at all, neither do Kaaf and Qaaf.  Where those questions about the letters? The difference between Ha' (looks like a jeem without the dot) and ha' is that the articulation point.  The Ha' (Jeem without the dot) is from the middle of the throat and the ha' is from the lowest part of the throat, sort of sounds bronchial like the "ho, ho, ho" sound they use for santa-sorry, that is the closest analogy I can think of right now. The Ha' and the ayn come from the same part of the throat.  The Ha' (jeem without the dot) is full of air, sounds a little like steam escaping from the throat.   It is quite hard to describe in words, but the best way is to listen to audio files and capture the letter when it has no vowel and listen to it over and over to get the sound.   I fully agree, transliteration is not the way to learn correct Arabic.   [slm]
08/19/04 at 07:31:23
Taalibatul_ilm

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
timbuktu
08/19/04 at 10:00:41
[slm] [quote author=Trustworthy link=board=lighthouse;num=1092657480;start=10#12 date=08/19/04 at 03:35:07] Someone help me out please for I do not have Arabic fonts installed.[/quote] you do not need to install arabic fonts to read on IE, the posts above explain this. If you want to type arabic letters or even words, here is a good link for an on-line keyboard: http://naseej.com/text/key/key.html then copy and paste onto the madina board if you go to http://www.abouttajweed.com the articulation points and the common mistakes are explained, and there is a diagram to explain the various portions of the anatomy from which the letters emanate. _________________ here is my question to sister Taalibatul_ilm: In Urdu, the letter "d" is equivalent to a letter in which the dot on the Ð has been substituted by a small Ø. i.e.  Ð has a dot over the Ï, while the letter which actually corresponds to "d" has a small  Ø on it. and as I understand it, the "d" is pronounced with the tip of the tongue further back touching the hard palate. so I still maintain that  Ï is not the same as "d". In fact I still get similar sounds when I try to pronounce  Ð and Ï, whereas you say the sounds are different. I hear them from the many arabic lessons available, and although the makharij are different, they still sound similar. similarly, Ê is not the same as "t". We replace the two dots in Ê with a small Ø, and the resultant letter has the same sound as "t". I don't think there is any equivalent to "d" and "t" in arabic, yet everyone says they are equal to  Ï and  Ê. am I right, because in "d" and "t" you have to use the hard palate, and the sounds become different.
08/19/04 at 11:09:55
timbuktu

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
Taalibatul_ilm
08/19/04 at 16:39:57
[slm] I am not an Urdu speaker, so don't quite get the question about "the letter "d" is equivalent to a letter in which the dot on the Ð has been substituted by a small Ø." My understanding is that there are two "d" type sounds in Urdu, one pronounced back on the hard palate and one pronounced forward near the gum.  The one that is pronounced back is not the correct sound of the Arabic ÏÇá and it is quite noticable when one mistakenly uses this articulation point when trying to read the Qur'an, the same goes for the Urdu ÊÇÁ. You are correct, ÏÇá is not the same as "d", just similar.  The English "d" is pronounced further back from the gum whereas the Arabic ÏÇá is at the gum line. Also, you are correct "t" is not the same as the Arabic ÊÇÁ for the same reason.  They do not have the same sounds because there is a difference in the position of the tongue.   There is a difference in the sound of the Arabic ÐÇá and ÏÇá, my guess is you are not sticking out the tip of your tongue far enough for the ÐÇá .  If you do not stick it out and let it hit the edges of the two top front incisors, it indeed sounds very much like a ÏÇá. [wlm] [slm]

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
timbuktu
08/26/04 at 10:44:58
[slm] sis Talabatul_ilm OK, now I have translated two sheets from an Urdu book on Tajweed, by Salma Kaukab. These are given in the attached excel worksheet. Will you please check if I have got it right, and correct/ amplify.
http://www.jannah.org/board/attachments/Makhaijul_Huroof.xls
Makhaijul_Huroof.xls

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
Taalibatul_ilm
08/27/04 at 06:21:01
[slm] I have changed the wording on a few things some for clarity, some as corrections. I think the changes should come up in red.
http://www.jannah.org/board/attachments/Makhaijul_Huroof_urdu.xls
Makhaijul_Huroof_urdu.xls

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
timbuktu
08/28/04 at 12:55:22
[slm] shukran, and jazakiAllahu Khair Thanks and may Allah (swt) reward you. :) One of the two sheets has the correction in red. Does it mean that the other sheet titled "similar" is OK and needed no correction?

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
Taalibatul_ilm
08/29/04 at 01:27:50
[wlm] Wa iyyaakum. Unfortunately what it means is that I didn't notice it! The terminology on that page, now that I look at it, is kind of different.  Insha' Allah I will look at if further then reload the attachment with any coiments, etc.

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
Taalibatul_ilm
08/30/04 at 10:32:26
[slm] I wanted to delete the other file and put this up in its place, but it doesn't seem I have that ablility.  Maybe the moderator or administrator can do that? Any way, the attached has the second page comments modified too.  The use of the term "jerk" was there a lot, and I'm not sure why.  I only left it in on a few letters. The comments are reflecting the characteristics of the letters.
http://www.jannah.org/board/attachments/second_Makhaijul_Huroof_urdu.xls
second_Makhaijul_Huroof_urdu.xls

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
nouha
09/06/04 at 16:48:43
[slm] sorry to bust ur bubbles guys (and gals).. but the best way to pronounce arabic correctly is if u ask an arab person... unfortunelty the down side to learning arabic online is that u cant really hear the letters pronounced the right way... so go to the local masjid... find an ay-rab and inshallah theyll be willing to help... oh yea and the letter thaad as in duhr...is NOT pronounced zuhr... it annoys me when ppl use the "z" in its place.... lol :P im arab... so it does bug me a bit :D salams take care nouha:)

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
jannah
09/07/04 at 03:03:25
[wlm] maaan what's up with the AYrab nationalism nouha :P not every arab knows tajweed unfortunately, but i do agree it's extremely important to find a teacher for tajweed. the teacher can listen to you and focus on your problem areas and give you feedback. you can't learn tajweed from a book, it's just not something you will be able to do with only book knowledge. you just won't be able to perfect it. it's a skill that needs to be learned with experience and practice. listening to tapes helps, and you can try to imitate the correct tajweed, and you can record yourself and have ur own feedback, but you also need a teacher because alot of times you don't realize what you're doing wrong and thus continue the wrong pronounciation cycle. transliteration of arabic words into english is a whole other looong debate..

Re: Teach me arabic pronunciation
nouha
09/07/04 at 22:51:12
[slm] thats not wat i meant... they are asaking about pronounciation.... as far as i understood :).. so im just saying...ask an ayrab (and for jannahs sake...;)... a knowlegable person in arabic language ) about the pronounciation... :)... salams take cares nouha:)
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