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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| advice on higher studies |
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| timbuktu |
| 08/21/04 at 06:51:47 |
| someone sought advice from me. This is a female doctor, who wants to go in for higher professional studies (mrcog) in gynaecology. She has ruled out the US and the UK because of their leading the war on Muslims, and doesn't want to be among racists. Now is Canada good and safe for practicing Muslims? She is a very religious person, and would like to be where there are many Muslims and mosques, and where she is not harrassed by the FBI types. How about Scandinavia, and Iceland? Do they fit the bill? or any other suggestions :) |
| 08/21/04 at 13:53:03 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: advice on higeher studies |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 08/21/04 at 09:48:48 |
| it sounds like she is racist herself to paint whole countries in such terms. Maybe she should start her higher learning here |
| Re: advice on higeher studies |
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| jannah |
| 08/21/04 at 12:10:56 |
| mike it's not racist when its true. the US and UK's recent practices have been extremely anti-Muslim, from government policies and agencies, the workplace, the media, going to any place including airports, people in the street. the patriot act's complete disregard for people's rights. racial profiling which is acceptable by law. the amount of hate crimes against muslims has grown exponentially at something like 300%. i have story after story in my own life and everyone around me even in this tiny place AND i'm a US citizen and grew up here my whole life. i would not recommend people coming to the US at this time. you will be harassed and oppressed, especially if you are a student on a f1 visa coming here from a Muslim country. canada is a little better. their culture is different, and they are always pushing the idea of a 'canadian mosaic' so they are more open about islam. it's probably better in the bigger cities where there are more Muslims.. ie TO, Ottawa, Montreal (but they got that french thing where they hate everyone ;)) so maybe some canadians can post, EH ? :) i don't know about scandanavia or iceland?? are there even muslims there? ;) |
| 08/21/04 at 12:11:55 |
| jannah |
| Re: advice on higeher studies |
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| lucid9 |
| 08/21/04 at 13:26:20 |
| [slm] you will find more rascists outside of america and the uk than anywhere else. europe is pretty rascist. homogeneous societies like iceland or scandanavia are in general pretty hugely closed minded. the uk is the best place... |
| Re: advice on higher studies |
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| timbuktu |
| 08/21/04 at 13:30:44 |
| [slm] there are Muslims in Scandinavia, and some in Iceland too, I think. There has been some immigration into Scandinavia, and while they have been homogeneous societies, I think they have led the fight for human rights, so any racism would be rare indeed. and mike, while the US is a great place, it is not entirely inhabited by nice people like you. It is indeed a Jihad living in the US these days, and while the British police used to be friendly in my days, it turned racist within a short time of my departure from there. and the other security agencies, you should know that they are the worst humans, if you can call them that. and mike, that girl is one of the finest. she is a practicing muslimah, and she is very knowledgable whose ambition is to be a daiyyah. She is as far from racism as you can get. hey, I have forgotten my geography. Ottawa is in Quebec or is it Montreal that is? OK I found it. Ottawa is just on the border in Ontario.:) and it is Montreal that is in Quebec. |
| 08/21/04 at 13:55:04 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: advice on higher studies |
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| stranger |
| 08/21/04 at 15:21:38 |
| [slm], My experience in Toronto has been quite good. I haven't faced racism that I know of. The problems with a tolerant society like Canada is probably not a whole lot different from the US because if you're a weak muslim like myself, you can find yourself being swept away into bad stuff quite easily because it is so open here whereas a conservative country would probably help in that your environment doesn't corrupt you as much. I assume it's quite different in the states since there is so much open hostility towards Islam. I guess it all depends on the type of person you are. It would probably affect you less if you were to come here at a university age, rather than grow up in this society. Anyway, that's my two cents. [slm] |
| Re: advice on higeher studies |
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| superFOB |
| 08/23/04 at 02:55:56 |
| [slm] [quote author=jannah link=board=madrasa;num=1093081907;start=0#2 date=08/21/04 at 12:10:56]mike it's not racist when its true. the US and UK's recent practices have been extremely anti-Muslim, from government policies and agencies, the workplace, the media, going to any place including airports, people in the street. the patriot act's complete disregard for people's rights. racial profiling which is acceptable by law. the amount of hate crimes against muslims has grown exponentially at something like 300%. i have story after story in my own life and everyone around me even in this tiny place AND i'm a US citizen and grew up here my whole life. i would not recommend people coming to the US at this time. you will be harassed and oppressed, especially if you are a student on a f1 visa coming here from a Muslim country.[/quote] I think its a bit of an over reaction on your part. Hate crimes might be a problem on the east coast and the mid west but the situation is a tad different here on the west coast. West coast of north america, from northern california all the way upto british columbia (canada), is pretty cool, that includes states of oregon and Washington. I love northern california just for the fact that desis are EVERYWHERE. More than half the population is desi or asian, can't get any better than that (for a desi at least). The people in general are very liberal. Everything is peachy except for the gay part, but then, its everywhere in the west. That narrows the scope to just a couple of states though, and the schools here are EXPENSIVE and hard to get into. As far as the knee-jerk US legislations go, if the student makes sure that they are within some kind of immigration status, keep in close contact with the school's international office (most of them are really helpful), and mind their own business, they should be fine. Personally, I haven't encountered any 'overt' discrimination, a few OBL catcalls after 9/11 but nothing else since then, except for an occasional stare. Same with my ex roomies, many of them recently got hired in good companies, couple of them even work under orthodox jews. Same can not be said for southern california though, especially san diego. Despite the LARGE hispanic population, the redneck factor is a bit on the high side, LA city is OK though (USC and UCLA have reputed medical schools). But socal is still better than what lies on the east. Don't get me wrong here, I do not have any illusions about US society and all that is associated with it and I have my reasons, discrimination is just one of them. In view of all this, I am not in favor of a woman staying anywhere alone, but thats just an opinion I adhere to, like everyone else :) |
| 08/23/04 at 03:03:16 |
| superFOB |
| Re: advice on higher studies |
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| jannah |
| 08/23/04 at 20:49:28 |
| wlm, agreed the West is more liberal as are many Muslims there.. but how bout the "Oregon 8" and the travesty of justice that occurred with that poor lawyer from Oregon. Patriot act applies to everyone in the US and I still hear stories from sisters that live in cali, so I can't really say... i think if you have a choice u should go to canada... |
| Re: advice on higher studies |
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| Barr |
| 08/27/04 at 11:57:45 |
| [slm] I've lived and studied in the UK, has visited the US and currently living in Canada. Though I love my UK & US experiences as they have helped increased my understanding and living of being Muslim, alhamdulillah - I'd still pick Canada to live. Like Jannah said - Canada prides itself to be the mosiac of different cultures and welcomes diversity in harmony, and there's smt here that I can feel, which is absent in UK & US. I'm not being biased here, coz even Singapore and Malaysia, who also pride themselves as multi-cultural nations do not hv the same kind of policies and attitudes as Canadians do. And that is what I like best about Canada. Alhamdulillah. Since the determining factor for this sister is based on social conditions of a country, then, I'd highly recommend Canada. Otherwise, neither US nor the UK is a big bad evil place to live and work, as I think other factors should take into consideration to study overseas such as the quality of the institution, courses available, MSAs, community as well as one's development as a Muslim etc. Allahua'lam :) |
| Re: advice on higher studies |
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| Shahida |
| 08/30/04 at 02:17:08 |
| [slm] I have heard only good things about Canada :-* As for Scandinavia, have her look into Sweden. I have 2 friends studying there, and they say there are Muslimas in hijaab in every field, even an engineering professor, mashaAllah, who is the top of her field!!! The other day I read about all the European countries where Muslimas were more or less free to express themselves. I can't remember where, but will look for it. My advice: let her contact the Islamic Medical Association in that particular country (for USA and Canada it is IMANA- http://www.imana.org). They will be able to help her, and advise her, inshaAllah. For example, it is very hard in some places for a Muslima to do her specialisation in Obstetrics/Gynaecology due to laws regarding abortion etc. And several places, South Africa included, make it almost impossible for foreign graduates to do their specialisation in the country. Also check which exams she may need to write, and how much they cost, if the Pakistani medical education is not recognised there. May Allah guide her and make it easy for her, inshaAllah. Let us know what she decides:) Salam Shahida :-) |
| Re: advice on higher studies |
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| Shahida |
| 08/30/04 at 02:45:39 |
| [slm] I found this just to add a little flavour to the decision-making: it mostly deals with schools, but there are some interesting points about countries I would never even have considered! Taken from Islam Online http://www.islam-online.net/English/In_Depth/hijab_campaign/articles/01.shtml Hijab in European Countries Rarely has a topic caused as much heated debate and as many divided opinions as the Law Against Ostentatious Religious Symbols that was passed by the French Parliament earlier this year. Reactions to the law from other European countries have been equally passionate and have reflected all colors of the political spectrum. Furthermore, in most European countries the law has sparked heavy domestic debate around the desirability of a similar law. The question is, to what extent is France really an exception in Europe? With the following survey of the situation in different European countries, we wish to shed some light on this issue and re-iterate the need for continued struggle against all forms of discrimination. Poland “How is it possible that France, which is considered the country of human rights and modern democracy, can practice such a flagrant form of discrimination?” This was the reaction of the Polish people regarding the issue of the hijab, as described in the Warsaw daily Gazeta Wyborcza. This opinion may be disqualified by the importance of the Catholic Church in Poland. Still, this did not prevent the rest of the European neighbors from being totally astonished about the heated debate in France. To some Poles, resorting to the law to prohibit girls from wearing hijab even seems incongruous. Britain For the two million Muslims of Indo-Pakistani origins in Great Britain (3.4 percent of the population) and other religious minorities (Sikhs and Jews), wearing the hijab, turban, or yarmulke in school is not forbidden. The department of education has declared that the rule covering the school uniforms or the wearing of religious symbols is the sole responsibility of each school principal. This can lead to ambiguous situations and in sporadic cases to the prohibition of the hijab. Therefore the Commission for Equality among Races considers the action taken by Luton school in which hijab was forbidden “an implied act of racism.” Due to the commission’s declaration, the school decided to revoke its previous stand on the wearing of hijab in school. To understand the difference between the British and French views, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Mike O’Brien, recently declared that, unlike France, Britain is not going to ban the wearing of religious symbols or the hijab in its schools. According to Mr. O’Brien, France has taken this step as a consequence of its own historic experiences and culture, while Britain, on the other hand, does not view integration as a synonym for assimilation. British identity is made up of different nations and cultures; these differences contribute to the strength of the British people. The Metropolitan Police Force allows its police officers to wear a uniform that conforms to their beliefs. Consequently, Muslim women working in the police force can wear scarves and uniforms with long skirts; in hospitals the Islamic dress is permitted if a request is forwarded in advance. In the year 2000 the British government published a guide stipulating that Muslim women can be photographed with hijab for their passports. The only restriction is that the face of the person in question should be totally uncovered. The official departments issuing passports were instructed not to refuse photos in which the applicant is wearing a religious head cover. Ireland Similar to the stance in Great Britain, regulations concerning the dress code or the wearing of religious symbols fall under the sole responsibility of the school principal. The Irish constitution and several laws forbid discrimination, including religious discrimination. In addition, Irish labor laws forbid any kind of discrimination on the ground of religious affiliation. Many cases of hijab interdiction were reported in schools, but each time the problem was rapidly resolved due to the intervention of the Equality Authority, which promptly advised the school that it was breaching the laws. In the police force a new department was founded specializing in racial and inter-cultural aspects. The Irish police authorized the wearing of the hijab with the uniform in order to encourage Muslim women to join the police force. Contrary to the British police, who authorized the wearing of the hijab after the explicit demand of Muslim women, the Irish police took the initiative. As a result of this action, the Irish police won the prize for innovation awarded by the European Union, an award worth 30,000 euros. The last two incidences in which women were refused a passport because of wearing hijab were swiftly settled in favor of the women after the interference of the Inter-Cultural Office of the Justice Department. Italy For the 800,000 Muslims in Italy (1.4 percent of the population), the question of hijab is not on the agenda, and very few incidences forbidding the wearing of hijab in schools have been reported. Three years ago Muslim women in the city of Turin demonstrated against a regulation that prohibited them from wearing hijab in their residency card photo. In order to avoid further tensions in the country, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs issued a circular stating that it was permissible for the Muslim women to wear hijab in their photos, similar to the ruling applied to the Catholic nuns. [i]Norway[/i] In 2004 a furniture store fired a Muslim woman because she refused to take off her hijab at work. The store was forced to go back on its decision and to re-employ the woman in question. The management argued that the hijab was against the dress regulations of the establishment, which prohibits its employees to wear hats or any sort of headdress, but the mediator for sex equality insisted that it was not the store’s right to ban the headdress unless it constituted a danger for the wearer. Sweden In Sweden, which has the largest number of Muslims in the Nordic European countries, little action was taken against the hijab. In 2003 two girls were dismissed from the school of Gutenberg because they wore a burqa (traditional Afghan dress that covers the entire face) which was against school regulations. This whole problem could have been averted because the girls had already accepted to take off their burqa during the exams. Denmark In Denmark both students and teachers have the right to wear the Islamic hijab in the Danish schools and universities. In the working sector, we can cite the example of one of the biggest chains of distributors in Denmark, FDB and Dansk Supermarkets, who announced that they would not employ Muslim women in the controlling department or in any visible section of the stores. They argued that the hijab was neither hygienic nor compatible with the establishment’s uniforms. The minister of labor thought that this decision was discriminatory. In 2000 a Muslim woman was not accepted as a trainee because of her hijab. The woman argued that she wore the hijab out of her religious conviction. The court of Odense judged in favor of the woman and ordered the store to pay her 10,000 coronas as compensation. After this decision, many enterprises fashioned uniforms taking the hijab into consideration. Macdonald’s, Toms chocolate factory, and the co-op Denmark companies were among these enterprises. The Ministry of Defense also designed a uniform compatible with the hijab, the turban, and the yarmulke. The Minister for Immigration and Integration Bertel Haader declared, “I am not the minister of hijab, what interest me is the integration of the people in the country and not their clothes.” Pointing to the fact that wearing the hijab is a right and a personal freedom of choice, he added that “if we are to forbid the hijab in school we should also abolish Christmas holidays, and Jewish symbols. We do not have such a restrictive mentality. We are trying to encourage Muslim women to participate in the work force, and forbidding the hijab will lead to the creation of a second class citizen to the isolation of Muslim women from society. We will not accept such a decision.” Austria Since 1912 Islam and Christianity have been recognized as the official religions of the country; there is no problem regarding students and teachers wearing hijab in Austrian schools. Luxembourg In Luxembourg very few girls wear the hijab at school. The issue was raised in 2003 when two girls from Sub-Saharan Africa wore hijab; the minister of education proclaimed that it was permissible to wear a “discreet” type of hijab. Many teachers revolted against this ruling and wrote letters to their deputies in parliament to incite them to act against hijab. The social opposition party agreed to launch an orientation debate on hijab. Before this incidence two other cases were known which did not cause any difficulties. However, in the case of teachers, the minister of education was opposed to them wearing hijab. The use of hijab in a photo for identity cards and passports still remains a public issue; some institutions accept photos with hijab while others refuse. Germany In Germany there are 3.2 million Muslims (3.8 percent of the population), most of whom are of Turkish or Kurdish origin. The question of hijab for students is not a problem in the German schools. But when the teachers are concerned there is active debate on the question. The various states each legislate its own laws concerning the question of hijab. Certain states, among them Bavaria, legislated against the hijab but permit the wearing of religious Christians signs (nuns’ veils) and yarmulkes. Muslims see this as discriminatory and legal actions have been pursued. It is out of the question to treat the cross and the hijab on the same level, said Cardinal Karl Lehman, who supervises the Episcopal conference. Cardinal Ratzinger, Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and close advisor to Pope John Paul II, stated officially during the New Year Mass, “I will not forbid a Muslim woman to wear the hijab, but I will not in the least permit anyone to forbid the cross as a symbol of public reconciliation.” These contradictions are due to the ambiguities in the religious laws in Germany. The fundamental law of 1949 adopted an article of the Weimar constitution of 1919, which does not clearly separate the state from the church, contenting itself with affirming that “there is no State Church” and guaranteeing “equal treatment for each religion.” The preamble of the current constitution states that it was written “with the conscience and responsibility of the German people in front of God and men.” It is a fact that nuns can teach in public schools wearing their habit, crosses are authorized in classrooms, and religious classes are listed among the courses offered. In addition, the state collects from its 55 million Christians taxes that are funneled to the churches. Chancellor Schröder in his speech did not mention God; therefore, he could claim before Christmas that Germany “was not [a] secular [state] but has become one”, impregnated with “Judeo-Christian religion. … The scarf is not permitted to be worn by public employees, including teachers. But I cannot forbid a young girl from going to go to school wearing her scarf.” Spain Spain’s 300,000 Muslims (0.7 percent of the population) can wear hijab in private as well as in public. Only Madrid experienced a serious conflict two years ago when the administration of the private Juan Herrera School opposed the wearing of hijab in the classroom by a 13-year-old Moroccan girl; her parents simply transferred her to a public school. Minister of Education Pillar Castillo estimated late December 2003 in the daily El Pais that even if the displayed religious signs in schools are not “appropriate” they, nevertheless, should not be “forbidden.” If the government is adopting such a reserved attitude, explains the daily, it’s because most of the golden crosses have been removed from public educational institutions and especially because school councils enjoy sufficient autonomy to make their own decisions regarding the subject. Holland The 300,000 Muslims in Holland (1.9 percent of the population) still enjoy a generally tolerant atmosphere. The law forbids all religious discrimination, and the hijab is present in public schools. --- Salam Shahida |
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