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Praying in churches

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Praying in churches
Chris
09/23/04 at 07:59:11
Salaam all

Is it prmitted to pray in a church?  I've got to go work somewhere away from any mosque and they don't have a prayer room.

Thanks

Chris
Re: Praying in churches
Asia
09/23/04 at 08:08:02
A Church ( as far as I know ) is a place where others (Christians) pray to and attribute a son to Allah.. so am not totally sur eof how acceptable that would be.

However! unlike many religions, a muslim can pray ANYwhere so long as it is clean.
Allah says in Surat Albaquarah (aya 115):
{And to allah belongs the east and the west, so wherever you [might]  turn, there is the face of Allah. Indeed, Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.}

I just say: Tawakkal on Allah and pray in any clean place, preferably not a Church..
Re: Praying in churches
Kathy
09/23/04 at 08:16:15
[slm]

It is my understanding that praying in churches is allowed if it is absolutely necessary. Make sure you aren't facing any statues or icons.

Isn't there a closet, stairwell or outside spot?
Re: Praying in churches
bhaloo
09/23/04 at 10:14:38
[slm]

Can't you just pray in some parking lot?  Or are there any stores nearby?  Pray in their changing rooms.  Or pray at a nearby park.  Why go to a church? ???
Re: Praying in churches
timbuktu
09/23/04 at 11:36:04
[slm]

well, I have been to churches, although not in a long, long time.

One reason was looking at the architecture.

another, just curiosity.

and a third was visiting the graveyards attached to churches. I just loved to read what was written on the tombstones.

attended some services as well.

we had to recite the Lord's Prayer every morning at school, although we modified it by getting rid of the "Father" bit :)

I guess if it is cold outside with a howling wind, one would want to pray within four walls.

But if you can, at least avoid facing a statue, or a painting.
09/23/04 at 11:37:21
timbuktu
Re: Praying in churches
humble_muslim
09/23/04 at 15:26:45
AA

Yes Chris.  It's ok as far as I know, and I have done this many times myself.  In fact, my local community has rented a church for the salats in jammah since they were unable to get a "zoned" place anywhere else. Alhamdolillah, there's no statues or pictures in the church, just a cross which is behind us as we pray.
Re: Praying in churches
siddiqui
09/24/04 at 00:03:50
[slm]

Well I guess the sisters & brothers have answered your quetion about being careful of the Idols/icons

In my opinion  this is a great Dawah opportunity and explain what Islam is about in practise so please take it InshaAllah Allah swt will reward you for any stares/inconveneices you might incur by doing this :)

[wlm]
Re: Praying in churches
Saam
09/26/04 at 16:26:01
[slm]

Dear brother Chris,

I think the best way to find a true answer to your question is to pose this question to a scholar; since none of us scholars, we aren't really knowledgeable enough to give you a completely correct answer.  As you can see, there have already been somewhat differing answers to your question.

A good website is www.islamqa.com

They might even have your question answered for you; you can search their archives.  Otherwise, you can post to them your question, inshaAllah.  Maybe until you find out, it's best to stay on the safe side, waAllahu 'alam.

Wassalaam,
Saam
Re: Praying in churches
Chris
09/27/04 at 04:02:06
I'm not a big fan of them ever since they published a ruling that said women were always inferior to men in faith.  I know women who outshine the best men, so I decided they should be treated with suspision.

Chris
Re: Praying in churches
Saam
09/27/04 at 15:54:08
[slm]

My dear brother.  Are you sure you understood them correctly?  Maybe they meant with respect to certain characteristics, like physical strength.  Even if they didn't, that is their extrapolation of the rulings from the shari'ah; as we aren't scholars, we don't have the ability/tools to judge if they are correct or not.

But all the same, in general, they always give extensive evidences for their fatawa, so you can look at those.  Even if you don't agree with a few points they make, you will certainly get a much more correct opinion on an issue from them, as they are scholars, than from lay people like us.

Other fatwa websites are www.islamonline.com and www.sunnipath.com.  If you trust the scholars on those sites more, maybe you can look there.

Insha'Allah, it will not be too hard to find your question.

Wassalaam,
Saam
Re: Praying in churches
Khariya
09/27/04 at 23:29:45
[slm]

My MSA doesn't have an offical prayer room, so we pray in a hallway. Some brothers pray outside on the ground on campus. I've seen some guys praying in public parks.  It's a great dawah opportunity,, Non-muslims are totally intrigued.  

P.S Just watch your shoes people may try to steal them.  
Re: Praying in churches
Chris
09/28/04 at 04:05:52
We do have the tools; its called a 'heart' and a 'soul'

We also have the right; its called 'facing Allah alone, without intercession from the scholars'.

Chris
Re: Praying in churches
Kathy
09/28/04 at 08:03:20
[slm]
[quote] P.S Just watch your shoes people may try to steal them. [/quote]
:-[i thought that only happened during the wedding party! ;)
Re: Praying in churches
humble_muslim
09/28/04 at 09:28:45
AA

This is from Fiqh As Sunnah. Seems to give the OK.  I suspect that the stuff in square parentheses is not from Fiqh As Sunnah but was added to by the translator.

Volume 2, Page 75: Churches and synagogues

Abu Musa al-Ash'ari and 'Umar ibn 'Abdulaziz prayed in a church. Ash-Sh'abiy, 'Ata, and Ibn Sireen did not see anything wrong with praying in a church [if one happened to be in a church at the time of salah]. Al-Bukhari says: "Ibn 'Abbas would pray in churches [under unusual circumstances] except for those with statues or sculptures." The Muslims of Najran wrote to 'Umar saying that they found no place cleaner or better to pray in than a church. 'Umar wrote to them: "Sprinkle it with water and leaves and pray therein." According to the Hanafi and Shaf'i schools, it is disliked to pray in such places in general.
Re: Praying in churches
Saam
09/28/04 at 15:01:44
[slm]

The danger in looking at a hadith, like the one mentioned above, and deriving from it that something is or isn't permissible can be grave unless one possesses the knowledge necessary to properly do so.  As lay people, we most likely know some Qur'an and some hadith, but chances are we have not read all the sahih narrations, memorized many of them, and memorized the entire Qur'an like many scholars have.

Furthermore, even if we were this knowledgeble of the shari'ah (Qur'an, Sunnah, and possible some few other sorces such as ijmaa of the sahabah), chances are we probably are not familiar with the science of Usool ulFiqh which is necessary in order to extrapolate exactly what the shari'ah is telling us to do.

All this and more is necessary to properly understand what ruling can be derived from the text.  For example, we need to know what texts abrogate and what have been abrogated.  Specifically with regards to the hadith mentioned above, do we know what kind of Christian Churches they were?  Many Christians during this time did not attribute a son to Allah (SWT) while many others did.

This is why I am saying to really know the correct ruling we should ask the people of knowledge.  I hope I'm not coming off as harsh; I'm just trying to help you in finding your answer.

So, my dear brother, I urge you to try to ask a scholar, or if not possible, at least your imam.

Wassalaam,
Saam
Re: Praying in churches
humble_muslim
09/28/04 at 15:58:57
AA

What's wrong with taking a ruling from Fiqh As Sunnah?  It's a highly accepted source of fiqh.  It's highly possible than any Imam being asked this would look in there for the answer.
Re: Praying in churches
Saam
09/28/04 at 19:10:05
[slm]

Allahu ta'ala 'alam.

I just realized that book was published in this last century.  All the same though, it is best to have a  scholar's opinion even on this work, as we might still misunderstand some points due to our limited knowledge.
Re: Praying in churches
Kathy
09/28/04 at 21:34:07
[slm]

Saam, what advice would you give to people who have no access to Imams (or they just never get back to you) or scholars... but still have questions?

Re: Praying in churches
bhaloo
09/28/04 at 23:03:50
[slm]

First of all fiqh us sunnah is not some hadith book.  Its a good book for new/old Muslims that want to know what the rulings are on basic matters and usually gives the opinions of all 4 schools of thought, alhumdullilah.  Its does what http://www.islam-qa.com or http://www.islam-online.net (which are both in my opinion great sites to go for islamic questions/answers) websites do but in book form.

Its up on the MSA USC website, here's what they said about the book:

Fiqh-us-Sunnah was written by Sayyid Saabiq (1915-2000 C.E.), may Allaah have mercy on him. The following information is taken from his obituary in the March 2, 2000 Daily News of IANA Radionet.

"...Sabiq's most famous book was the three-volume Fiqh As-Sunnah, which in the first writing of its kind brought the four major madhahib together,  in a comprehensive treatment of Fiqh matters . The book has since been translated into dozens of languages and is used by Muslims throughout the world. Sabiq wrote Fiqh As-Sunnah in the 1940s when he was only 30 years old. He wrote the book at the request of Ustadh Hassan al-Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood. Every Fiqh ruling in the book goes back to the Qur'an and Sunnah and Sabiq dealt with all four madhahib objectively, with no preferential treatment to any. Sabiq also wrote the book, "Islamic Theology," along the same lines: simplification and avoidance of overphilosophization or getting involved in disputes on arcane topics. Besides his academic work, Sabiq was a noted Islamic activist. After writing Fiqh As-Sunnah, Sabiq spent some time fighting along with the Mujahideen in Palestine in the late 1940's and he later visited most countries in the world and lectured in their mosques. He was the first graduate of Azhar to visit the Soviet Union and check on the conditions of Muslims there. Sabiq was born in 1915 in the Egyptian village, Istanha. He received his education at Al-Azhar and after his graduation worked as the Director of Mosques and Islamic Education in the Egyptian Islamic Affairs Ministry. He also taught at Al-Azhar, and later moved to Saudi Arabia, where he headed the Shari'a Graduate Studies Department in Um Al-Qura University. After moving back to Egypt, he spent years teaching students in a Mosque in Cairo..."
In the early 1990's, Fiqh-us-Sunnah was translated into English by a group of people commissioned by American Trust Publications. The translators included Muhammad Sa'eed Dabas, Jamal al-Din M. Zarabozo, Abdul-Majid Khokhar, and M. S. Kayani. This group published Fiqh-us-Sunnah in five volumes which form the basis for this online edition. MSA-USC obtained the "raw" electronic data from the Al Muhaddith project, and converted this data into Web-ready format. A similar effort may be found at Islamic Resources Repository (IRR) by the DEED group at the International Islamic University, Malaysia.
Re: Praying in churches
Stephanie
09/29/04 at 01:19:20
[slm]

Just one comment about Islamq-a but maybe I should just keep my mouth shut. . .
All the Fatwas I've read by them concerning hijab says that it is a requirement to cover the face and hands.  Of course we know this is one opinion, but not the majority.  Overall, I have found them to be fairly harsh on women.  I do refer to their sight for other issues though.  I find islamonline to be much more agreeable.  
To each their own... Allah Alim.

[wlm] :-)
09/29/04 at 01:27:16
Stephanie
Re: Praying in churches
Saam
09/29/04 at 02:48:40
[slm]

Ya, I first thought it was a hadith, then realized it is from a fiqh book published this century.  But I would still suppose it is always preferable to ask a trustworthy scholar if you can get a hold of one.  Please forgive me for any incorrect assumptions I made and anything wrong I have said.  (This is just one of many instances that can you find person lacking knowledge (i.e. me) makes a blunder.  :P )  What I said applies to when normal people look to some ahadith or ayat and try to derive a ruling from that.

[quote]
Saam, what advice would you give to people who have no access to Imams (or they just never get back to you) or scholars... but still have questions?
[/quote]

Allahu ta'ala alam.  My personal advice would be that when a scholar is not around and the question directly pertains to the person so they must have an answer, then one should go with the best source he/she can get, like fiqh/fatwa books and websites published by scholars.  WaAllahu 'alam.

But, I know there is great reward in traveling to seek knowledge, if that is any motivation.

Wassalaam,
Saam  ;-)
09/29/04 at 02:50:47
Saam


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