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Prayer/Free will/ Character

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Prayer/Free will/ Character
Caraj
10/15/04 at 16:01:19
This is a multi faceted post.
And someone or even myself may of posted simular questions before.

1) Why Pray if things are pre-destined?

2) Why pray if anothers free will cannot be invaded upon?

3) If Allah already knows what will happen why ask for anything?

4) Define the word...... Character?

5) If a persons character if lacking can Allah change that persons heart and if so is that not effecting free will?
(I believe anyone can change for the better but they have to want to)

6) If ..... who will change and who will not pre-destined and if so why did he even make the ones who will not change for the better?

7) When is it time to give up on someone and move on?

It would mean the world to me if you all would please answer and help me learn and explore the answers to these questions.

PS.... How does one post for members only ???
10/15/04 at 16:03:43
Caraj
Re: Prayer/Free will/ Character
timbuktu
10/15/04 at 21:22:09
[slm]

The question of free will and predestination has been debated by very learned scholars, and some on this board are very knowledgeable indeed. May be they will answer this better, but I will make an attempt.

1) Why Pray if things are pre-destined?

A: Prayer can alter fate. A prayer rises, and fate come down, and when the prayer overtakes fae, the fate is overwritten, but that too is in the knowledge and permission of Allah.

If prayer does not appear to be answered here, its answer has been reserved for you in the next world.

It is also pre-destined that one will pray, and that as a result of prayers one will either have his/her prayer answered in this world, or its reward reserved for the next one.

2) Why pray if anothers free will cannot be invaded upon?

A: Not sure about what you mean here. If we pray that a person finds the truth, how is it invading his free will?

3) If Allah already knows what will happen why ask for anything?

t is for our own good. If we ask Allh (swt), this is a way of remembering, and when we remember Him, we are likely to do good deeds and less likely to fall in sin. Plus the angels don't have any needs, and they could see no reason for man's creation, so Allh holds us as example to the angels that we are superior the them, and deserve the viceregentship.

4) Define the word...... Character?

A: ??? :) I guess a dictionary can do it better.

5) If a persons character if lacking can Allah change that persons heart and if so is that not effecting free will?
(I believe anyone can change for the better but they have to want to)
A: The point is the prayers are answered. We do not know what was in a person's heart before change, and what is after the change. May be there is a tiny speck of wanting to change, and as result of our prayers Allah makes that speck grow. Maybe there wasn't that speck, but Allah creates a desire in that person to change.

The prophet [saw] was upset by the kufr of the Meccans, and partculalrly because they repressed the Muslims so much, that he prayed to Allah (swt) to change one of the two Umars (Abu Jehal, and Umar ibni Khattab), who were the most active in their hatred of Islam. As a result, Allah (swt) brought Umar bin Khattab (ra) to Islam.

6) If ..... who will change and who will not pre-destined and if so why did he even make the ones who will not change for the better?
A: I don't really want to answer this one, because it is a harsh reality, but we must know that Hell was also created for a purpose.

7) When is it time to give up on someone and move on?
A: One does not give up praying for the non-believers, but when one feel that one's own salvation and/or level of eemaan is in danger, then one should stop wasting time on such a person.

______________

I think for memebers only you type

[m e m] to start the message

and [/m e m] to end the message

both should be without the extra spaces in between. i.e. mem and /mem enclosed in square brackets.

10/15/04 at 21:31:41
timbuktu
Re: Prayer/Free will/ Character
Mossy
10/16/04 at 19:46:36
1) Why Pray if things are pre-destined?

An important concept is that Allah (swt) is not bound by his creation.

Hence Allah (swt) is not constrained by time.

We are bound to our arrow of time, it points in one direction only - my typing of the word wibble comes "before" my typing of the word wobble.

Allah (swt) is not bound by that.

Our ruh is not bound by this save when in our bodies.

The realm of Allah (swt) is outside of time - before, after, all at once..

Make sense?

I don't think it's possible for it to to be honest - it goes beyond any analogy we could possibly draw as our minds are not capable of comprehending a universe without time.

Hence "pre-destination" isn't something that was done a bit before you were born - it is done at all times simultaneously, as time is an illusion..

Hence, there is no way we can affect or know of predestination save by information from Allah (swt) via an interface to this realm.

Hence we do the best we can to follow the laws laid down..

Remember, Allah (swt) is both omniscient and omnipotent - are these things we can comprehend?

No.

It doesn't mean he's just very good at math or that he can lift heavy stuff..


Infinity is.. deep stuff ;)

2) Why pray if anothers free will cannot be invaded upon?

Not sure what this means.

3) If Allah already knows what will happen why ask for anything?

We cannot comprehend the knowledge or mind of Allah (swt) due to the above mentioned attributes - we cannot constrain him within the limits of human thought - his knowing of the future is not, say, like having a premonition - he is free of time and hence free of the future and the past.. We do know that he has said that if we ask, he will listen, so we must work within that.

4) Define the word...... Character?

Adab. Or taqwa perhaps.

5) If a persons character if lacking can Allah change that persons heart and if so is that not effecting free will?
(I believe anyone can change for the better but they have to want to)

Allah (swt) will not change the condition of a person until he changes himself? There is clearly an ephemeral here - as the various parts of our mind, body and soul interact, we have conjunction points in which "free will" comes to pass - we make decisions. The outcomes of these decisions are that of Allah (swt) to decide - we can do nothing but because of him. I believe it is these that we will be judged on - and again, that is all we can work from as it is impossible to know the "mind" or "motivations" of Allah (swt) save through that which we have been narrated via wahy. Even then it is impossible for us to understand, being limited and human.

6) If ..... who will change and who will not pre-destined and if so why did he even make the ones who will not change for the better?

Eh, I'll be repeating myself..

7) When is it time to give up on someone and move on?

Your free will, your decision ;)


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