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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| Ember |
| 11/12/04 at 10:09:22 |
| emma of the [slm] I know the title is eye catching. :) Had to grab the attention of the right ppl. :) ok Well, when we are praying at the masjid, the Indian/Pakistani sisters keep drawing the flimzy curtain that divides the bros from us. They do it when they are about to say Takbir and start the prayer. One of them was sitting next to me and said that it was because it was hot and suffocating. mm the ceiling is amazingly high ( I suffer from clustrophobia, so I know) but the temperature is something we all experience differently so I can't judge. I've noticed that it is always the Indian or Pakistani sisters since I have seen some of the Arab or non sub-continental sisters move away (or look a little annoyed) when this happens. Plus, one of the sisters drawing the curtain was telling the crowd close by that the curtain is closed because its a cultural thing for the Arabs. I am confused. Its a mystery that I need to get to the bottom of. Is it a cultural thing? Is it part of a school of thought that you have to "see" the row in front of you to be part of the jama'a or is it just hot and 'suffocating'??? Note/Clue: I agree that it could be just heat/suffocation but how does the fact that the trend is not seen in any non sub-continental sisters, get explained? |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| ummnajmah |
| 11/14/04 at 16:17:10 |
| [slm]Ember, this not a reply but I totally know what you are talking about because I went through an experience like that last year. At my least at your masjid they waited until the prayer was about to start, at this particualr masjid several times some sister would fling open the curtains when the Jumaah khutbah is supposed to start forcing some of us to flee to the back rows in order to be away from wandering eyes! Subhanallah, am not trying to make one group of people feel bad but it also happened to be the indo-paki sisters.They wanted to 'hear' the khutbah well.I didn't know what to say about the situation and even when the sisters were addressed they still flung them open.I personally want to be comfortable when I pray without worrying that someone of the opposite sex looking in on me so I can concentrate on my salah.It's totally diferent at this new area I have relocated at alhamdulillah but we have other issues to work through unfortunately.Don't we all anyway....I think inshallah by all of us educating ourselves about our deen properly things would reinforce how we are supposed to conduct ourselves in the masjid and most importantly though life as muslims.Things like not to talk when the khutbah is given and especially in another language that another sister does not understand, not backbiting at the masjid, straightening the rows and having a cheerful face when you see your muslim brother or sis are often unfortunately ignored or totally not observed.I hope and pray we all get better at these things. [slm] |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| timbuktu |
| 11/14/04 at 19:18:47 |
| [slm] a very good question and a poor reflection on indo-pak brothers. I once prayed wirh Bosnians and the women and children were lined up behind the rows of men with a couple of rows distance between the genders. No curtains there. What is the situation in the Haram? In the Indo-Pak normally women do not pray in the mosques - not even Juma`a and Eid. There are some mosques and prayergrounds that do though, and there the sections are seperate. The problems of the women praying in separate sections was discussed earlier and Jannah convinced me here that when the sound system fails or malfunctions, the sisters are often lost, and do not stay in tune with the rest of the congregation, so a curtain is a hindrance. As for wandering eyes, perhaps lowering the gaze needs to taught in the homes of these brothers, by their womenfolk. |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| Shahida |
| 11/15/04 at 01:41:49 |
| [slm] I too have prayed in mosques, where there has been no curtain. The men were in front, and nobody turned around to "look" at the women behind. I felt extra good in these masajid, cuz I could see and hear everything! :) It is very disconcerting, and you cannot concentrate if you cannot hear anything, or worse, you hear bits and pieces. Like at the Eid Salaah on Sunday, there was so much noise when the Imaam was explaining the procedure for the Salaah, that most women (and men for that matter) would not have known when and when not to go into Rukuu3, had it not been that we could all SEE the Imaam. But I know that here in South Africa, in mosques, the set-up would not work, as both men and women are not disciplined enough to lower their gazes, observe proper dress, or masjid etiquette :( Allahu a3lam, I dont see how opening the curtain, if you are *behind* the men, could cause a conflict, unless these men are unashamedly turning around and staring, in which case I am all for the curtain :) I saw a beautiful thing on TV last night...the Eid Salaah from Indonesia! Ya Allah, what a beautiful sight! Men and women, praying together, everyone on their place, dressed according to the way Allah expects of us, bowing and prostrating in unison... :-* I wish I could have been there!!! Ultimately I think it depends on the *culture* of the ppl...some just seem more disciplined that others, Allahu a3lam. I also think that the sooner ppl get used to the fact that women are allowed to be at the masajid, and the sooner they accpet that we are there for 3ibaada, and not to be ogled at, then the situation will become more comfortable for everyone involved, inshaAllah. Allahu a3lam. am sorry this causes sisters to be uncomfortable in the place they are supposed to feel most comfortable! :( Salam Shahida :-) |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| Ember |
| 11/15/04 at 12:09:55 |
| [slm] I have still not made my mind up about the importance or lack thereof, of the curtain but here are some facts: -The women are behind divided by a flimsy curtain therefore, very easy to hear since its the same auditorium. - seeing the imam, mm this I don' t know but, TIMBUKTU, we don't see him in the Haram either due to the sheer size of the congregation. - Men looking at us. some do some don't so better not say "men" since its like saying all do. Plus, many women are not 'completely' covered and this does not help. - Plus, we can't completely exhonerate the women since they are not 'just' looking at the imam either :) - In an attempt to exhonerate some of them, I could assume that it is human nature to look up when someone walks in front of you. Hey, we do, when a woman crosses our path so it must just happen. SO keeping these points in mind whats the reason for pulling open the curtain at prayer????????? Anyway, as for praying 'together'...what exactly do you mean sister Shahida? If it is shoulder to shoulder or right behind then in the next row, I don't know if I would be comfortable. You see, when we are in prayer, one of my greatest jihad is to keep ALL thoughts that don't pertain to the meaning of what I or the Imam is reciting out. I don't know about others but, I have to work very very hard to do so. Having a brother pray next to, or in front of me, might be just an added distraction that I don't need (especially if he end up being an attractive brother). :) Plus, I don't think the women in jama'a in muhammad (saw) time prayed 'together' next to each other. I don't know if they were divided by a curtain when the bros were in front, though. |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| timbuktu |
| 11/15/04 at 12:26:39 |
| [slm] [quote] -seeing the imam, mm this I don' t know but, TIMBUKTU, we don't see him in the Haram either due to the sheer size of the congregation.[/quote] Oh, one doesn't see the Imam, but one sees the people near one's rows, and that help in determining what the congregation is doing, in case the sound system fails. [quote] - Men looking at us. some do some don't so better not say "men" since its like saying all do. Plus, many women are not 'completely' covered and this does not help. [/quote] Isn't the ideal islamic society when women can go out without fearing lewd oggling. It will not come about with too much exposure of the human body as in the West, nor will it come with complete isolation of the genders. [quote] - Plus, we can't completely exonerate the women since they are not 'just' looking at the imam either :) [/quote] true. [quote] I don't think the women in jama'a in muhammad [saw] time prayed 'together' next to each other. I don't know if they were divided by a curtain when the bros were in front, though.[/quote] I agree that they did not pray side by side, but if I remember correctly what I have read on this, the women prayed behind the men in separate rows, and left early. The men did not look at the back rows until the women were safely out of sight from the mosque. |
| 11/15/04 at 12:35:12 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| Ember |
| 11/15/04 at 14:56:04 |
| [slm] - Many people have to pray in the Haram where there might not be a row ahead of you due to walls and pillars etc but I can see that some people might want to see the row ahead - Agreed on the dress. I wish more people would be aware that the masjid is not a place to do the "Im hot and single" ad or the 'look at me look at me' routine. It would not be taken well if they were told so masjids should emphasize during the khutbas and talks that the women need to be in loose fitting covering, with ALL not some of their hair covered etc -as for muhammad (saw) time, I'm sure the bros did not waltz in late and walk into rows in front of the sisters, causing distraction. (In our masjid, one night the place was full and many bros were really late. They were walking in after Isha'a, after two raka'as of the taraweeh had started. Then they asked the sisters to move back row after row. We got so very very squashed, some almost had no room. We had come early to sit and get ready for a 'peaceful' prayer. It was very disruptive but we needed to have saboor and we did. But it was not right)(Note: they moved the entire curtain stand back to accomodate them) |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| Fozia |
| 11/15/04 at 18:38:42 |
| [slm] Hope this helps I spent ages looking for it one handed as I knew I'd read it somewhere before.... [url=http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Istisharat/ShowFatwa.php?lang=E&Id=7588&Option=FatwaId]here[/url] Wassalaam |
| 11/15/04 at 18:41:53 |
| Fozia |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| Khariya |
| 11/15/04 at 19:57:59 |
| [slm] the masjid I go to has a cutained section and a bigger room for the women cause the curtained section is not enough. Personally I perfer the curtain for alot of reasons. Ex: alot of sisters who wear niqaab lift their veil up for the khutbah and of course the prayer. 2 alot of sisters have issues ( myself included) with slippery hijabs and it's a relief to be able to sit for the khutbah without having to constantly fix it. thirdy alot of sisters bring their little ones and breast feed them, so needless to say it would be quite uncomfortable without the curtain. :-) |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| Ember |
| 11/16/04 at 10:20:33 |
| [slm] Fozia, that is a very complete article. Jazaka Allah. The article is right. I think if the prophet (saw) knew of the current dress code of the muslim women to the masjid they would have been prevented from going to the masjid. I like the reflecting glass idea :) The only thing that keeps me perplexed is the apparent cultural background displayed by those who draw the curtain vs those who don't. :) mystery mystery |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| jannah |
| 11/16/04 at 10:52:40 |
| [wlm] I hate curtains and walls or any other barriers. If this was the norm at the mosques I attend, I would not attend them. It's just hard to take a class or listen to the Imam or a prayer without seeing him. It doesn't feel like you are participating in anything. It's like listening to a tape or the radio really? Honestly I feel like a second class citizen sometimes when I go to other mosques, because if you are not seen or heard, they tend to forget about you. So microphones are not turned on. Prayer starts and no one hears. The Imam makes mistakes and the women are confused. The Imam does various things and we cannot follow. We've all attended school and universities and colleges. I haven't been to a single class where I haven't seen the teacher, male or female... same for the brothers. Wouldn't it be an oddity. How would people pay attention and learn or follow? This is what we are used to here, but for some reason when it comes to the mosque all of a sudden people insist on walls and curtains? I think almost all of the mosques built in the last decade in the US or so were ill-conceived. For some reason they never thought about the women coming to the mosques or the children. In the future I hope that they can think about these things before they build a new mosque. Better traffic flow. A place for the children. A place for women who want to attend classes. A place for mothers or niqabis who want to see but don't want to be seen, etc. There are ways to build mosques to satisfy most parties... |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| theOriginal |
| 11/16/04 at 11:35:48 |
| [slm] I completely agree with jannah on this one. Maybe not so much for prayers, but for classes or lectures, especially...I find that women in general have a very hard time concentrating when there are curtains or walls. So it's WORSE than listening to a taped lecture. Prayers...I remember the ISNA mosque in Toronto (QEW and Erin Mills Pkwy, I think?), they built that mosque with women in mind, and it's just soooo much better. To be honest, I doubt this has something to do with my ethnic background. Wasalaam. |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| Shahida |
| 11/17/04 at 06:01:47 |
| [slm] To clear up the situations of praying without barriers...we prayed in rows behind the men and kids. Women shoulder to shoulder with each other, not with the men. Not next to the men, not intermingled with them etc. This from my understanding is how things worked way back then in the time of our Prophet, saws. [i]Although, I saw a TV broadcast of prayers from some Muslim country (?Malaysia?) where the men and women stood in 2 "blocks" next to each other with a space in between. [/i] I AM IN TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH JANNAH ON THIS ISSUE!!! Maybe we should get together and design a mosque sis ;) As for letting ur hijaab slip off, or breast feeding(there is a very modest way of doing this too, you just have to learn *how*), or niqaabi sisters, there is no problem IF ALL INVOLVED ARE DISCIPLINED! I remember one niqaabi sis found a place next to a pillar in the mosque, where she sat during the Khutbah, and of course no man could see her when the prayer started, cuz WE WERE ALL FACING QIBLA...I dont see the big deal. I hate curtains too. Here we have a place upstairs, alhamdulillah. There is a curtain, and no, we cannot see anything through it, but alhamdulillah, we can hear the imaam, even if the mic is not working, and provided the kids are quiet! ;) But what does that help the women? When exiting the mosque, you gotta literally battle ur way through hoards of men who have no understanding, that no matter how cool they think they are, we do *not* want to touch them, we do *not* want them ogling at us!!! :( You have to wait for so long before the crowd dies down, or you just leave straight after the Fard prayer, so as to avoid them...It is not just about curtains, the biggest problem is our behaviour, or lack of proper behaviour. Where the men are used to seeing women as integral parts of society, even integral parts of the mosque, they seem not to be so excited by women at the prayers! Of course, there are so many who would behave badly anyway, but this is a general observation I have made, after praying in socities where it is NORMAL to have women at the mosque, and the women know how to dress, where the men know how to behave. I MISS THAT SO MUCH! Sis Ember, of course men in the front could be a hinderance to your concentration. But then, so could women, couldnt they? How about focussing on a given spot on the floor, where you would place your head, this would help inshaAllah, without you losing out peripheral vision and missing out on Sajda-al-tilawat or other unexpected movements of the prayer? I have seen SO MANY sisters, who behind the curtain, do not understand Arabic, or know when to do that particular Sajda, and they totally miss it, and go into Ruku3 instead, an the end up doing the rest of the prayer on their own instead of with the imaam. IT WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED COULD THEY HAVE SEEN! no? This is an issue of contention, I *know* it can work without barriers, and look forward to the day we wont need the barriers anymore! inshaAllah. Teach the men. Teach the women. Teach the children. What else can we do? Salam Shahida :-) |
| 11/17/04 at 06:13:13 |
| Shahida |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| Kathy |
| 11/17/04 at 09:13:07 |
| [slm] Just some thoughts of incidents that happened in the last couple of days: Prayers came in. I was the only woman in the Masjid. I was exhausted, working on the Library all day and fasting. Decided not to climb the 20+ stairs to the muesella. (sp?). So I grabbed a rug and prayed right there. Yikes! I must have missed an Allahu Akbar, or the bro leading ( not the regular Imam) made a mistake. I got so confused, my prayers were shot. Just when I figured out where they were a ruku happened while I was in sajda~! I bet this has never happened to a man. When I first became Muslim, I remember this happening, solid walls then, and being in tears! As we age those tears of frustration become complacement. Kinda sad, isn't it.... Friday night we had Kids Nite Out. This is when our Muslim kiddies bring their school buddies to share our customs and traditions of Iftar during Ramadan. Alhumdullillah the men always, always clean up their side. Amazingly, it is always spotless... unlike our side. Our kitchen is connected and we have all learned to be discreet when sharing it with the Bros. But there is always one in a crowd. One of the sisters, who would like to be the matriarch, ran into a bro and went off the deep end, yelling at him to get out of the kitchen. I think the word got around, because a sis and I had to clean up not only the woman's section... but the men's too. Needless to say, the sis who yelled...didn't stay to clean! |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| Ember |
| 11/17/04 at 11:07:31 |
| [slm] When I speak of distraction it is while you wait for the prayer to begin or during the Khutbah, and not during the prayer, when we don't look beyond the place of sajdah. In muhammad's (SAW) time, the men must have arrived earlly, and then when they were finished they waited for the women to leave, so the system must have worked. In our masjid the most of the women are punctual (even if not it makes little difference since they enter from the back) while the men... The curtain in our masjid is so flimsy, as I mensioned earlier, that you could see the movements and figures just fine without seeing features etc. The place is an auditorium with a very high ceiling and even if the mic is cut off the sisters can hear as well as the brothers. I'm sure that there could be better designs and better systems like a mezzanine (with the view of the Imam) for the women with a seperate exit or something. Yet, my question remains whether there is a school of thought or culture that makes one require/discard the curtain. As I mensioned earlier, I have little like or dislike for either system, and as a born observer (occupational hazard), I noticed that there were distinct groups that either liked or disliked the curtain. Maybe all folks from either group might not feel the same as the group but I'm certain that the numbers were significant of folks conforming to the general feeling in the group. |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| timbuktu |
| 11/17/04 at 21:11:22 |
| [slm] [quote author=Kathy link=board=sis;num=1100268562;start=10#13 date=11/17/04 at 09:13:07] I bet this has never happened to a man.[/quote] :) you just lost the bet. It has happened to me, more than once, because I close my eyes (problem with sight, so as to concentrate more), but got lost in my own Salah, and missed what the Imam was doing. [quote author=Ember link=board=sis;num=1100268562;start=10#14 date=11/17/04 at 11:07:31] The curtain in our masjid is so flimsy, as I mentioned earlier, that you could see the movements and figures just fine without seeing features etc. The place is an auditorium with a very high ceiling and even if the mic is cut off the sisters can hear as well as the brothers.[/quote] If the curtain is so flimsy, then I agree these women are wrong to draw it. [quote] .... Yet, my question remains whether there is a school of thought or culture that makes one require/discard the curtain. .[/quote] There isn't any that I am aware of, unless you count the so-called progressive Muslims. [quote] .... I noticed that there were distinct groups that either liked or disliked the curtain. [/quote] Maybe those who dislike the curtain are from a society which has denied them access to the masjid for so long, now that they have access, they want to go the whole way by removing even the flimsy see-through curtain. reaction! :) |
| 11/17/04 at 21:14:41 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| Ember |
| 11/18/04 at 10:59:59 |
| [slm] "Maybe those who dislike the curtain are from a society which has denied them access to the masjid for so long, now that they have access, they want to go the whole way by removing even the flimsy see-through curtain. reaction!" Hey I never thought of that. Might be true. Who are "progressive muslims"? I thought the only knew thing was something called "moderate muslims" |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| theOriginal |
| 11/19/04 at 03:08:36 |
| [slm] Umm what? That is so extremely insulting? I mean I'm trying to see through the logic of it all, but I'm a little stumped. Maybe someone can clarify it for me? And FYI, I don't come from a culture where I was denied access to the masjid. Yes, I am of a Pakistani ORIGIN, Alhamdulillah. But I was born in the US, and I lived most my life in Canada and Switzerland...and spent the rest of it Africa. People don't have qualms with women visiting mosques there. But yes, they do have problems designing masjids with women in mind. I mean, have you ever been to a mosque where the women have to walk up to the third floor to pray? Some of those women are real old. It takes them 20 minutes just to get up there (in pain, with help). The most disturbing factor is that when there is some big event like Taraweeh, Eid, etc...the women aren't even given access to a part of the masjid, they are all dumped in the gym or the cafeteria, which in my honest, impartial opinion, is really unjust. Furthermore, as mentioned before, women used to pray behind men (without flimsy curtains) during the time pf the Prophet (saw). So what's the point? We were never given access to go to the mosque, so now, we need the curtains open? I see that as illogical, and it's not because I'm slightly annoyed by that statement. Wasalaam. |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| timbuktu |
| 11/19/04 at 08:29:18 |
| [slm][quote author=Ember link=board=sis;num=1100268562;start=10#16 date=11/18/04 at 10:59:59] Who are "progressive muslims"? I thought the only knew thing was something called "moderate muslims"[/quote] "progressive muslims" are left-wing liberal muslims who are not quite above making fun of Islamic values, the foremost being "haya". Their site: http://www.muslimwakeup.com/ Not that I want to advertise it. I think it falls under fuhsh ÝÍÔ [quote author=JustOne link=board=sis;num=1100268562;start=10#17 date=11/19/04 at 03:08:36] That is so extremely insulting? ... And FYI, I don't come from a culture where I was denied access to the masjid.[/quote] :) This wasn't a description of you, but of those females who have been shut up in the four walls of their in-laws' house, or at least who have never had the privilege of entering a mosque. Since you have had an open upbringing, you don't mind curtains so much in prayers. One of my cousins was (and is :)) married into such a family. She lived with her in-laws in a literal prison, and escaped it only when her husband brought her over to visit us; and boy, was she happy to experience the openness in our house! Have you studied psychology? If one is denied something for long, when one gets access to it, one of the reactions is to take an overdose. Not the only reaction, but one of the reactions. Some men who has been hungry for a long time, tend to overeat a lot at the first chance. :) I stayed at a friend's house in Toronto. I was surprised to see telephone sets everywhere. One line, but telephone sets every meter or so. Three in the bathroom. Can you guess why? In his childhood, and even a few years after his MSc from Karachi, a telephone was a luxury, meant only for the elite. So, when he came to Canada, he installed many sets, to link to the same line. You know what, the first thing the blacks in the US bought when they earned some money, was a car, a big flashy car. And some of them couldn't stop at one. They bought more and more. I knew two brothers of Pakistani origin once. They broke every taboo, although they came from a very well-established family of religious scholars. Once the younger brother came from outside, and went straight to the sink to wash his hands and face. Then he praised his parents for making this beneficial habit for their children. And then, he explained without any prompting: "timbuktu, you must be wondering why we are so deviant and so far from Islam. You see, as kids we were denied every pleasure, we led a very strict regimented life. So, we two decided that as soon as one of us gets free, he will get the other out, too. And that we will break every rule in the book." does that make it clear, and gets rid of your annoyance. :) |
| 11/19/04 at 11:05:08 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| lala |
| 11/19/04 at 10:13:04 |
| [slm] Interesting posts guys. MY dad made a very interesting comment this past Eid. YOu see the masjid we go to for eid day prayers is in a house where the women are placed on the third floor and the men have the first and second. There are good sound feeds and alhamdulilah this year the video feeds worked as well. ANyhow it took forever for my dad to make it out this Eid. I mustve waited outside for him for a good half hour. Upon riding home he said ' the women should be on the first floor'. DUH ..this made good sense. Old women, the children ..should be on the first floor. This way they are the first to file out, they dont have to maneuver through the men on the way down etc. I'm surprised this logic hasnt' hit anyone else yet? or has it? Look, either way you look at it, concentrating in prayer is hard if around men, women whomever. And it is true, you deprive people/children of something -when they get some freedom to make their own decisions they do sometimes go buck wild. Hence the wild desi kids who go away to school here in the states. :) Let's learn from this and take it from here. For example, if we are ever lucky enough to be part of mosque design/remodeling keep these things in mind. How can we maximize learning/attention span/respect/haya/ in a place of worship? Seems funny, but a place of worship is what is. Curtains suck but if it makes someone happy then have it. Having options in a mosque is good if large enough. THis Ramadhan again at the big masjid in Manhattan the women had options. For those of us who liked to see what was going down-we prayed behind the men in the large prayer hall. IF you didnt like that open atmosphere the balconies looked open. TO each his own. If a masjid is designed big enough why not have a space in the open floor for women as well as a curtain-drawn section for those who prefer that mode. It's all good I say as long as our intentions are pure and clear. oh and fYi: at the big masjid there are a lot of arab/white/african american women who were praying in the main prayer hall. So I'm not sure about the indo-pak thing ::) Allah knows best! Be well salaams |
| 11/19/04 at 10:17:52 |
| lala |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| timbuktu |
| 11/19/04 at 11:14:27 |
| [slm] [quote author=lala marcy link=board=sis;num=1100268562;start=10#19 date=11/19/04 at 10:13:04] oh and fYi: at the big masjid there are a lot of arab/white/african american women who were praying in the main prayer hall. So I'm not sure about the indo-pak thing [/quote] :) praying in the open behind the men wouldn't come as strange to the arab/ white/ african american women, but not so for the ones from Afghan, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, (Nepal, Bhutan, Mayanmar?). They have a long way to go. At Islamabad, I saw space reserved for them in some masaajid, but either left incomplete, or locked, or the women opted not to go there. Some exceptions, though. At Faisal Mosque, women can pray in the balcony up a flight of stairs, or behind the men outside the main Hall. Once I even saw them praying in the main Hall, behind the men's rows of course. |
| 11/19/04 at 22:19:58 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| theOriginal |
| 11/19/04 at 12:32:57 |
| [slm] Ah man..bro timbuktu, I really respect you, but I have a few problems with your opinion, in this particular case (specifically). Please keep in mind, that I have completely calmed down, and I am now drinking chamomile tea, so I have no intention of being rude. Most women from Pakistan who have never entered a mosque do not even know how to pray in jamaat. The reason is two-fold: the obvious one is that they have never enterred a mosque, and the other one is that the Hanafi madhab discourages women from praying in jamaat when at home. Now, I don't know if this is true from a scholastic point of view, but that is what a lot of imams out here in Pakistan seem to advocate. Just pick up a copy of Sunday's Jang, and I think my point will prove itself. (Note: I am not familiar with the rulings on the Hanafi madhab and women praying in jamaat.) The point of that long paragraph was simply this: most women who I came across in Canada (at least those who I met at university) who had recently moved from Pakistan/India, were a little bit MORE conservative on what we have so aptly coined as the "curtain dilemma". But that, too, is a generalization, because I have personally met women in from every ethnic background on both sides of the fence. So...let's just take the regionalism out of it, with all due respect to sister Ember's observation. Secondly, I don't know who's house you stayed in Toronto, but 3 phones in the bathroom? Like where would you put these phones? And yeah, we all know people who go crazy when given too much after being deprived, but maybe I'm a little idealistic, and I think they are more of an exception rather than a rule. Now, Pakistan is changing, Alhamdulillah. Change in Islamabad is slower (As it always has been), but Karachi is progressing at a crazy speed, especially when it comes to masaajids and the female presence. Alhamdulillah. (I'm not familiar with the rest of Pakistan). Having said ALL of that (irrelevant, it all was), I think the real point of this whole thread is that there are serious problems with accomodations for women in masjids, in the whole world. Honestly, the best masjid I have seen to date was one in a town called Ngara, Tanzania. The whole mosque was made in a circular fashion. Okay, so there were advantages in that circumstance, in that there were only about 20 cars in the whole town, so making a parking lot was not an issue. Women got one half, men got the other half. Two entirely differently entrances, no problems whatsoever. There's much to learn from that concept. I have too much to say on this issue...and even my parents are sick of my continuous diatribe, so I will just plainly, stop here. Wasalaam. |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| timbuktu |
| 11/19/04 at 20:54:05 |
| [slm] :) good to have someone disagree in such a manner. My impression was that the Bosnians and the Turks (and by extension the rest of the Balkan Muslims) are mostly Hanafis, but they do not exclude women from masaajid. Please correct me if I am wrong. I did read somewhere that the Bosnians were converted to Islam by Arabs, not Turks. The Arabs in those times were mostly Shafi3ees. This exclusion is a development very particular to the Afghano-Indo-Pak culture. I have a theory about the development of religious thought and practices in the Indo-Pak subcontinent, but when I began to describe it, a brother got angry, and tody I think at least a couple of sisters will get angry as well. :) so I will keep the theory to myself. I do not know enough about the history of development of Afghan thought, except that the Taliban are mostly a product of madrassas of a specific group derived from Jamiatul Ulame Islam, an offshoot of the Deobandi school. I mentioned this subject of having women in mosques, and someone who otherwise has respect for me got very angry with me. He was a Pathan of the deoband school. [u]Women not allowed in Mosques[/u]: The article referred to by sis Fozia has something from ummul mumineen Aisha (ra) to the effect that if Rasullullah [saw] saw what the women were doing in her time, he would have forbidden them from mosques. Now, I beg to differ with that respectfully. I think Rasullullah [saw] would have asked them to come in the mosques, and taught them the value of haya in a manner that would have made them give up the perfumes etc. And I think so because the prophet [saw] did not forbid things outright that were halal, but instead the manner of his teachings was so people gave up their bad habits. It is the [u]culture in the Indo-Pak[/u] that discourages women in mosques. It might as well discourage it for their jamaah altogether. I asked a friend's daughter (a graduate of alHuda), to lead the prayer for women in my house, but my wife wouldn't join it. She prayed separately. There is a saying that a woman's prayers are better in the house than in the mosque, better in a kothri (small room) than in the sehen ( ÕÍä ). Could even be "better alone than in Jama3ah". I don't recall the origin and authenticity of that saying. I too thought it was the Hanafi madhab that was so restrictive, but jannah pointed out that the Shafi3ee of South India also follow this. I didn't know about that. So it must be a subcontinent thing. However, as I have mentioned somewhere, the ahle Hadith (who are very close to the Shafi3ee in many respects) allow this, even encourage it. And the Jamaate Islami was initially influenced by the ahle Hadith, so the women got to participate in their activities. When these people went abroad, it was for studies, so they established Islamic Societies together with Arab brethen, and thus outside the sub-continent a tradition of women's participation in masaajid established by those from these Islamic societies exists. Where the masaajid were established/managed by immigrant communities from the deobandi or barelvi schools, restrictions remain. Karachi has been much liberal, but its large and diverse population means opinions from both ends of the spectrm, and from the middle as well. If you have too much to say on the subject, say it here :). If someone gets sick of it, he/she will stop reading it. However, keep in mind that the original poster did not say all women from the sub-continent, but among those disliking the curtain, the majority was from "a particular ethnic backgound". It was I who made the connection with the sub-continent, and I too said that this is one of the reactions. Another reaction is what you mentioned, more conservatism. :) [u]about the telephones in the bathroom[/u]: one near the sink, one to the right of the seat, one on a wall. Room for at least another one. :) |
| 11/19/04 at 22:15:31 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| Tesseract |
| 11/21/04 at 00:30:18 |
| Assalamu 'alaikum wa Rahmatullah, [quote]There is a saying that a woman's prayers are better in the house than in the mosque, better in a kothri (small room) than in the sehen ( ÕÍä ). Could even be "better alone than in Jama3ah". I don't recall the origin and authenticity of that saying. I too thought it was the Hanafi madhab that was so restrictive,[/quote] Br. timbuktu :) its an authentic hadeeth (classed saheeh by Al-Albani) and not a saying. Here is the hadeeth: It was narrated from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “A woman’s prayer in her room is better than her prayer in her courtyard, and her prayer in her cabinet is better than her prayer in her room.” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, 570; al-Tirmidhi, 1173. This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Targheeb wa’l-Tarheeb, 1/136). Also, u guys might wanna read this (agreeing or disagreeing with the fatwa is a different issue), but the point is, its not a Hanafi or Shafi'ee thing, or even an Indo-pak culture thing, its from the hadeeth: [url]http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=8868&dgn=4[/url] Allah knows best. Wassalam. |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| timbuktu |
| 11/21/04 at 06:59:19 |
| [slm] thanks bro. BoI, I wasn't sure of the authenticity of this Hadith, so I referred to it as a saying. Thanks for the correction, and for the info that this is an authentic one. |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| jannah |
| 11/22/04 at 00:42:17 |
| [slm] I'm sure I don't need to tell you guys about the detriments and complete un-usooliness of taking one hadith out of context and using it as evidence? for certain things.. ie the issue of having curtains/barriers in the mosques really has nothing to do with that hadith because there were women who went to the mosque even alone, even fajr and isha and there was no barrier, and these include the prophet's wives and the women companions. and actually reading over the hadith it says it is better to pray in one's room or a private place than a courtyard.. it doesn't say not to go to the mosques, it doesn't say to make the women's accomodations inferior by sight and sound... so i mean if someone is going to build an argument based on a few things here and there put together in a patchwork sort of daleel it just doesn't work. |
| Re: Indo-Pakistani sisters/Curtain Dilemma |
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| Shahida |
| 11/22/04 at 01:05:11 |
| [quote author=timbuktu link=board=sis;num=1100268562;start=20#22 date=11/19/04 at 20:54:05] [u]Women not allowed in Mosques[/u]: The article referred to by sis Fozia has something from ummul mumineen Aisha (ra) to the effect that if Rasullullah [saw] saw what the women were doing in her time, he would have forbidden them from mosques. Now, I beg to differ with that respectfully. I think Rasullullah [saw] would have asked them to come in the mosques, and taught them the value of haya in a manner that would have made them give up the perfumes etc. And I think so because the prophet [saw] did not forbid things outright that were halal, but instead the manner of his teachings was so people gave up their bad habits. It is the [u]culture in the Indo-Pak[/u] that discourages women in mosques. It might as well discourage it for their jamaah altogether. I asked a friend's daughter (a graduate of alHuda), to lead the prayer for women in my house, but my wife wouldn't join it. She prayed separately. There is a saying that a woman's prayers are better in the house than in the mosque, better in a kothri (small room) than in the sehen ( ÕÍä ). Could even be "better alone than in Jama3ah". [/quote] [slm] Uncle Timbuktu...very well said! I especially loved the first paragraph I quoted, sub7anAllah, it is amazing the way you brought a whole new interpretation on that so often quoted saying by Aisha r.a :) Sis Ember:) I know this is no answer to your original q: but let me tell you, the sisters here will not be happy with praying behind men, they get very aggitated if the curtain is not drawn properly etc, and most of them are from Indo-Pakistani descent. The Arab sisters I know, are more less *strict*, in that manner! So it *cannot* be a racial/ethnic thing, depends on the individual I think.? Wasalam Shahida :-) |
| 11/23/04 at 01:37:28 |
| Shahida |
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