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| Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| Anonymous |
| 12/17/04 at 15:09:59 |
| Assalaamo Alaikum wr. wb., I have a very serious problem. I am a convert to Islam, married to a Pakistani man who has lived most of his life in the US. Now he is older, and we have several children, and he wants to go and live in Pakistan for a few years to work and experience living there. I am used to being very independent here, and am very involved in my community. I run study circles at my local masjid, teach in the sunday school, volunteer at my children's schools, and do a lot of dawah work. I am used to being able to drive myself to whereever I need to go, and to taking my children to Quran study, soccer, baseball, and everything that they do. My in-laws were very upset when my husband married me, because they wanted him to marry his cousin - same old cultural nonsense. Things went from bad to worse when our children were born, because we did not put black dots on them, tie strings to them, give them honey as a baby (botulism), or allow MIL to burn chilies. Also I asked her to stop telling my daughters to serve their brother all of the time (don't let him ever walk to the kitchen or do anything for himself). Our children mash'Allah are very learned about Islam, and I don't want them to be confused by these jahilliyah things. I have told my husband that I understand his need to live near his parents, but that we really need to have our own place as they have come to stay with us many times, and always complain about our lifestyle (that I shouldn't go to masjid, leave the house, etc. etc.). He says that if we live there we must live with them, or they will be offended and everyone will talk. I have serious reservations about this situation, and have expressed them. I know that I will not be permitted to leave the house, otherwise I would become involved with an NGO or other charity. FIL has also said that I will not be permitted to attend the masjid, since it is "gunnah" according to him. My MIL will be working hard to make our daughters "decent Pakistani girls" although we are not supposed to wear hijab in front of other relatives, because "it isn't nice to cover in front of relatives, they are not strangers." I apologize for the length of this post, but I am incredibly frustrated, and want to safeguard our rights before we arrive. Any advice on things to do in Islamabad is also welcome. For example, tell me about the libraries :) Jazakallah khair |
| Re: Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| Caraj |
| 12/17/04 at 16:09:17 |
| Sister, my heart goes out to you big time and I am afraid my advice would be not so great or frowned upon. However it is from the heart. I have never held back the three years plus I have been on this board......Why start now? I know this is a terrible ordeal and I fear you are going to have to pick the lesser of 2 evils. It is understandable, yet weird he wishes to go back. Him knowing full well you and your MIL have major (NOT MINOR) differences. One fear if it should it become unbareable, you may be thrown out or told to go and your children held there with their father and his family. Maybe even hidden from you should you not comply. I know this happens and I also know many wonderful experiences can also happen but from what you are saying I fear the latter will not be the case at all. Your US rights will mean nothing there. No matter what you are told. In your story I already see many warnings and not just red flags but HUGE WAVING RED SHEETS. Once you are away from here you have no rights and you are on his turf and in his territory so unless you 1,000% trust your husband I would invite him to go off for an extended visit. but me and the children are staying here. Or offer them to come to your place for a summer. This comment about making them 'Proper' Paki children I find to be a slap and insult to you, are they not already proper Muslim children? I also fear your hearts desire and dawah activities will go out the door of the plane. If you are told to go and cannot return with the children, do you wish your daughters and son to live there till they are adults. I'm sorry but if I had a husband asking me to leave and live with people who already do not agree with me, my life and the way I act and raise my children I certainly would never take the chance of living with them. I wouldn't go cause you may be promised the moon till you get there. I wouldn't go and I would make it very easy for him to go for 2 or 3 months. Maybe even 6 months. I would not allow the children to go, only cause they from your story do not seem to be welcoming. come here lets be an big family. You are already being told NO going out No Mosque Proper Paki children NO NO NO NO Can't Can't Can't And you're not even there yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please, think very very carefully of this. I wish you the very best. May Allah look out for you and your children and protect you and the children and may he fill fill your husbands heart with understanding and compassion and wisdom to know how to deal with this as not to hurt any of you. May Allah also give you the answer in your heart, soul and mind when to take a stand and the strength to follow through. |
| 12/17/04 at 16:17:46 |
| Caraj |
| Re: Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| Mona |
| 12/17/04 at 21:30:12 |
| [slm] so i am not sure sister if i understand you fully. has the decision to move been already made or are you still in the negotiation phase?? it will be tough for you and your children to get used to the living standards of a new country. but you mentioned that this is going to be on a try out basis, no? insha'Allah that is an assurance that you won't have to put up with something that might turn out to be totally unbearable. as for the motives for the move, i can sympathize that your husband wants to spend more time with his parents. you have children too and it would be natural that you would want your children to be not too far when they start their own families. i agree with you that the in-laws seem more traditional than deen-oriented. maybe because at their time religion did not have a strong influence on their lives. so, you or your husband can gently advise them as to the proper way of dressing infront of non-mahrems, and that women should not be prevented from going to the masjid if she is properly dressed. mention the hadith of the prophet [saw] about this issue, and also the views of ulama. masajid have a seperate section for women anyways, so no fitnah would arise insha'Allah. basically sis, just talk to them and treat them as if they are your dear parents, not as the fearsome in-laws who did not approve of your marriage to their son. try to get rid of old baggage, this will ease out tentions insha'Allah. while you have to do what is right and be assertive about it, don't antagonize them. make them feel that you do hear and value what they have to say. use hikma and patience when you deal with them and realize that ALL old people can become extremely difficult and stubborn. basically, your task will have to begin with earning their love and endearment. you see, when you really love and cherish someone, you overlook their mistakes. once they love you as a daughter, they will stop giving you a hard time and understand you better. right now, they may have their own misconceptions about who you are are thus being presumptious. old people from asian cultures demand lotsa of respect from the younger individuals. they are also easily offended. try to understand where they are coming from. also, tell them about how you have been raising your children in the us and how you make sure that they maintain their attachment to their religion and roots. if you cook pakistani food, make sure you let them know that you learned pakistani cooking just so that the kids get exposure to that part of their heritage. you get the idea sis. you just have to put yourself in their shoes, the in-laws that is. they have lived so many years away from their son and their grandchildren and now that you are moving with them, they want to have an active role in everyone lives. it can be overbearing and a little suffocating but you can set the tone to how much they interfere in your lives. as to moving in with them, i think that it would be better if you can have your own place there. maybe the first couple of weeks you can stay with them while you look for a house/apartment. but it would be really better for everyone if you can have your own space. negotiate with your husband on this issue. that's all i can think of. as for places to go in islamabad, JustOne should be more helpful as she is there right now. you know, there are some really cool things you can do in that part of the world. buy a travel book on pakistan. take care wassalam Mona p.s. i know of another convert who recently moved to pakistan with her husband. she is a french canadian who used to live in my city. see, you can start your own network there! |
| 12/17/04 at 21:33:04 |
| Mona |
| Re: Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| onemuslimgirl |
| 12/17/04 at 21:33:09 |
| asalam alakum, tough situation.....i would tell him that you both need to make istikhara prayers before you take such a big step...don't argue with him anymore, as this will make him more stubborn. telling him that you guys need to plan this very carefully as it is a big step (pretend as if you are taken this seriously) if he sees you taking it seriously, than maybe he will listen to your objections later on better. if u decide to go; it would probably be best if you guys wait until the summer so as not to disturb the kids and their schools. IF you guys end up going, choose your battles with your mother in law; not going to the mosque--ok, its bearable and not haram, not wearing hijab in front of non-Mehrams---ok, put ur foot down. may Allah help you inshAllah...... |
| Re: Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| Caraj |
| 12/17/04 at 22:23:20 |
| Sister, after reading the others post I am feeling a little like I was to rough on your situation but truthfully I am speaking from the heart. You are already being told you did not do this or that in regards to the dots, strings and honey. You are already being told what you will and will not be allowed to do. I am just worried about you whoever you are. Is there no way they can come here and spend a month and you all can go there for a summer before making a total move? I am sure thousand go and have no problems, but I know from an INS worker I know many mothers come back without their children and begging for help. Many stay in unhappy situations. Any promise he makes he can break and you have no recourse. I agree with the sister above had there of been no you can't do this and you can't do that and you didn't do this and we can make the girls decent Paki girls. Just be careful and talk to your husband about your concerns and fears. |
| Re: Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| sal |
| 12/18/04 at 02:25:14 |
| [slm] Before you make a last decision of moving to live there permanently .why don’t you take a little long holiday to see everything with your eyes ,so that you can discuss about a practical subject .There are may be things that wont be as you are told that need flexibility from your side or may be things are worse than they are described to you so that you will say NOOO As for living with his relatives ? this seems hard in my point of view . if he can afford his own place to live why is the need for living with relatives ? if he can not afford then why to go back to be a burden on others ? Always being far from relatives is better .No one will interfere in your affairs once you are not living with them A wife and husband may agree in certain way if living their own way but such freedom will be touched in case you are one of other wives and sisters living in the same place which usually affect their good relation .I have observed such things with people of similar situation Any way it would be nice to see where you are going to and how you are wanted to live before you agree or refuse but you need to think well before you say YES ;-) |
| Re: Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| theOriginal |
| 12/18/04 at 09:21:05 |
| [slm] I just recently moved to ISB myself, and even being of a Pakistani origin, let me tell you, it's a huuuuge cultural shock. Alhamdulillah, I moved with my parents, so it's not so bad, but I really, truly sympathize with your situation. Okay, so I think you need to really break down the issue, because as I see it, there are two separate root problems: 1) life in Pakistan, and 2) your personal family situation. 1) Not everyone here ties black strings to their babies (although I must tell you, it sounded so funny the way you wrote it). Yes, most mosques do not accomodate women. But Alhamdulillah there are plenty of ways you can get involved if you want to, and there are a selected few mosques with women prayer areas... Now, life in Pakistan, does not revolve around the mosque like it does in North America. There's just no way that it can. However, study circles, further Islamic education, etc...there are plenty of ways to continue that. I have to tell you, my brother, who is 11, and who went to public schools in Canada and then an American school in Geneva, is enjoying his schooling out here much more, mashaAllah. And the learning curve is just so much greater. Plus, he gets to study the deen in a school setting, which is something that we (the rest of my siblings) totally missed out on. (Ignore this if your kids attend an Islamic school in the US). Oh and his school's an International school, so there's no child abuse, heh. What I'm saying is that as far as your kids are concerned, this might even be a positive thing. Travelling, knowing about different cultures adds a dimension to your personality that is irreplaceable. One more thing, life in Pakistan is sooo chill. So, as long as this move of yours is not permanent (like you said...a few yrs), it shouldn't be so bad, inshaAllah... How old are your kids? 2) I'm not the poster child for a working marriage, so I think other people can better advise you here...however, as an outsider, I just think that a smooth transition to living near (hopefully not WITH) your in-laws would require a really solid understanding with your husband. At the end of the day, if your husband lets you leave the house (woah, they plan on chaining you inside the house in ISLAMABAD, there's not much to do here as it is), attend the masjid, work with an NGO (In 2003, Pakistan had the most number of NGOs in the world...and a lot of them are based in ISB), observe hijaab in front of male relatives, rear your children they way you see best fit, etc...then no matter what his parents say, there ain't nothing they can do about it. Please talk to your husband about your reservations, inshaAllah. Things to do in Islamabad, hmm...zilch or thereabouts. I hope you like to shop!!! lol. As for libraries, there are a few private libraries that I know of...there are some (scantily stocked) libraries at the few universities around here, and then there's the national library. Nothing to write home about though. Good luck, inshaAllah. Wasalaam. |
| Re: Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| timbuktu |
| 12/18/04 at 10:24:35 |
| [slm] a situation where you have my sympathies. But isn't your husband now in tune with true Islam rather than the "jahilliya" thingies? If he is, ask him if it isn't important that the children be brought up correctly. second, whereabouts in Pakistan are your in-laws? You could set conditions like no messing up with the deen. Then you could set yourself a target of improving the understanding of deen in Pakistanis. . |
| Re: Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| anon |
| 12/20/04 at 02:16:19 |
| [slm] The best preperation you can do is to learn some Hanafi fiqh. That would enable you to talk with your FIL and MIL on religious issues without causing bitterness. I can understand how hard it would be for someone who only knows hanafi fiqh to have a discussion with someone who only knows the way Islam is practised in USA. It is wise to know why the 'other party' is saying what they are. Knowing Hanafi fiqh would enable you to show them their mistakes in the light of what they respect and follow. InshAllah such ilm would allow you to convince them of your rights, especially since the local ulema would back you up. I am not asking you to start practising Hanafi fiqh. Ilm never hurts and I think this would go a long way in resolving your conflicts peacefully. At the very least you would be able to understand the local people better, since Hanafi fiqh is prevalent in Pakistan. The best, free, resource for this in my opinion is www.sunnipath.com (click on Fiqh Q&A on the main page, the click on "Hanafi" in the side bar, and it will show you some categories. You could browse through "women's issues", "marriage" and "family life" to start with.) If this post is edited, please IM me to get some Hanafi fiqh resources. |
| Re: Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| umm_sara |
| 12/20/04 at 10:12:03 |
| Assalaamo Alaikum, Thank you for all of the good advice. I should probably clarify a few points though. 1. I have 5 children, the oldest is 13, and my SIL has indicated that we have an "understanding" that he will marry her daughter. My husband is not crazy about this idea, but will not say no to his sister. 2. I have studied the Hanafi school of fiqh extensively, although I follow the Shaafi school. My in-laws are Barelvi. I have tried not to reply when I am upset, and "killing them with kindness." My MIL is a very bitter woman, and the harder I try the more she finds fault with me. 3. I have spent extensive amounts of time with my in-laws, as they stay with us 3-4 months every year. While they are with us, my husband absolutely will not contradict them, even if what they are doing is against the deen. We have been married for nearly 15 years, and my husband has been avoiding correcting his family's deen during that time, I don't believe that a few years in Pakistan will change this. 4. My in-laws have already clearly stated that I WILL NOT be allowed to go out as I please, and that we WILL NOT live in our own place. When we finally agreed to move for a time, FIL sent us a list of rules that we will have to abide by if my husband wants to receive their blessings. My husband is so concerned with his parents cursing him that he is asking our children and me to forego our rights. I am getting to the point that if he will not lay down some basic ground rules then I do not even want to go. |
| Re: Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| timbuktu |
| 12/20/04 at 10:50:52 |
| [slm] I think you have the right attitude. If your husband does not understand this primary thing that deen is more important than obeying parents, then you have to set the conditions for moving. My in-laws are Barelvi Sufis too, but I am a man. Lesser problems for me if I stick to my point of view. May Allah (swt) solve this (and other) problems of yours in satisfactory ways. aameen |
| Re: Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| anon |
| 12/20/04 at 10:55:09 |
| [slm] Does your husband know it is your right to ask for a place seperate from your in laws? If he doesn't care about providing you your God given rights, your solace might be in the fact that Allah tests His servants who claim to love Him, only to increase them in nearness to Him. Another thing worth a try is, once there, there is a particular show on QTV (a popular islamic channel) where a barelwi scholar comes to answer fiqh questions. Generally people give more weight to what they see on tv, so if you could call him up and get an answer in your favor you might win some support! You never know! Besides, once you are in Pakistan, travel a little outside Islamabad and there will be all these signs of "amil najumi kamil baba" type guys who claim to solve all your problems with magic, amulets or spiritual powers. I have never tested any of them, though I think it would be rather fun to do that. You could always give it a shot ;) |
| Re: Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| timbuktu |
| 12/20/04 at 11:15:19 |
| [slm] [quote author=al-anon link=board=madrasa;num=1103310599;start=10#11 date=12/20/04 at 10:55:09]travel a little outside Islamabad and there will be all these signs of "amil najumi kamil baba" type guys who claim to solve all your problems with magic, amulets or spiritual powers. I have never tested any of them, though I think it would be rather fun to do that. You could always give it a shot ;) [/quote] :o incredible. Don't you ever try it. It is the very strong who can escape the clutches of these people. They are mostly practioners of black magic, or plain frauds. and you could lose your deen. The Barelvi in-laws will be highly pleased with the approach of going to "amil najumi kamil baba"s. stick to Quran and Sunnah duas, and plain common sense. |
| 12/20/04 at 22:12:07 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| Mona |
| 12/20/04 at 12:40:09 |
| [slm] umm_sara, reading your last post made me change my mind. DO NOT GO!! period. that should be your final answer. i am not asking you to be rude or disobedient to your husband's family but they have a bad way of imposing rules on adults. that is unacceptabe in Islam or otherwise. anyways, they are his family and you are responsible for yours only. for you, don't deal with them, let your husband deal with them. make lotsa of duas. take care wassalam |
| 12/20/04 at 12:42:37 |
| Mona |
| Re: Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| Fozia |
| 12/20/04 at 17:28:40 |
| [slm] The more I read this the more I am convinced Sr.s Mona and Azizah are correct, don't go unless your husband is willing to vocally back you or better still if he's the one who makes the rules ie you guys get your own place etc. If he went against his parents wishes and married you surely he can back you up in this, more so if you're going to be alone and on their turf. As for the marriage thing my mother is hoping my daughter (not yet 2yrs of age) will marry my sisters little boy (he's only 6 months older than my daughter), mum hasn't the courage to come out and say it to me as I have stated on many an occasion what complete idiocy it is to arrange an engagement between children... my daughters are going to enjoy their babyhood and then they are going to study.!!! >:( meanwhile both cousins will be great playmates (when my daughter isn't trying to run my nephew over with her tricycle that is... ::)) Wasalaam |
| 12/20/04 at 17:29:27 |
| Fozia |
| Re: Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| Caraj |
| 12/20/04 at 18:04:31 |
| Umm_Sara, My heart goes out to you, it is a tough path to be on and a tough decision. I also do not wish to tell you to go against your husband. Look at the control and influence your in-laws already have on you. You husband is not willing to speak up on his own turf. It will be 1,000 times worse when you are on their turf. Also think of it this way, if you are misrable, your kids will sense it. Hard to fake things forever. Think of YOUR future DIL What kind of man your son will become will be what he observes. Do you want your daughters witnessing you to be under others control? You have every right to make a choice for yourself. But what about them? This may direct the rest of their lives should your husband refuse to return a few years from now. Will he allow you to visit relatives but refuse to allow you to take the children? I don't mean to speak ill manored about anyone. However, in my opinion, your husband needs to step up to the plate and defend you as his wife and defend his family. The best way to control any mother is to hold her children over her head. I would offer them continuing to visit and even offer to have him go for a couple or three months, But I would be keeping my butt here with my children. It is such a tough situation to be in. May Allah keep you and the children safer, give your husband insight, compassion and wisdom and you the wisdom and strength to take a stand when it is needed. ((((((((hugs)))))))) REQUEST to some sisters out there and you know who you are :-) There are 2 or 3 of you who years ago asked advice and did not heed it and turned out you regretted it something awful. I would never mention any of you by name. I shared many personal stories over the years. Many think I have gotten to personal, yet my heart did it to help another not make the same mistakes. If I helped one, my personal embarrassment was not in vain. If you feel Allah puts it on your heart to speak up may I ask you to try to get the strength to private message this sister and share your stories. Sister Umm_Sara, please be careful. We love and care about you, you're our sister. :-) |
| 12/20/04 at 18:24:51 |
| Caraj |
| Re: Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| Caraj |
| 12/22/04 at 17:16:36 |
| Sister, how are you holding up? Been able to talk to hubby about your concerns? Not trying to be noisy, just concerned. |
| Re: Don't want to live in Pakistan with in-laws? |
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| Sara_R |
| 12/22/04 at 22:00:54 |
| Yes, How are you doing? my heart goes out to you.. you are between a rock and a hard place... |
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