A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Dating vs Arranged marriage, etc |
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| bhaloo |
| 12/26/04 at 12:40:21 |
| [slm] I don't even know where to begin. :( Dating is not allowed in Islam, and there is good reason for it. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No man is ever alone with a (non-mahram) women but the Shaytaan is the third one present.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 2165; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi, 1758'). These two Muslims should repent from their haraam actions/behavior, and follow the advice of the Prophet (SAW). It was narrated that Ibn 'Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “We do not think that there is anything better for two who love one another than marriage.” Narrated by Ibn Maajah, 1847. al-Busayri said: Its men are thiqaat and its isnaad is saheeh. |
| 12/26/04 at 12:40:48 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: American almost 18 year old daughter dating 21 |
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| georger |
| 12/26/04 at 17:04:37 |
| [quote author=bhaloo link=board=madrasa;num=1104076275;start=0#1 date=12/26/04 at 12:40:21][slm] I don't even know where to begin. :( Dating is not allowed in Islam, and there is good reason for it. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No man is ever alone with a (non-mahram) women but the Shaytaan is the third one present.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 2165; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi, 1758'). These two Muslims should repent from their haraam actions/behavior, and follow the advice of the Prophet (SAW). It was narrated that Ibn 'Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “We do not think that there is anything better for two who love one another than marriage.” Narrated by Ibn Maajah, 1847. al-Busayri said: Its men are thiqaat and its isnaad is saheeh. [/quote] Go ahead and get angry with me but I certainly don't agree with this advice. It's rooted in medieval thinking. Good reason for it say you? Good fruit comes from the good tree. Rotten fruit from the rotten tree. Is this advice rooted from the same area of the world where people use vehicles as weapons, driving them into crowds while loaded with TNT, and explode their bodies on buses and markets to kill innocent people? I would suggest strongly that any advice from this area of the world makes it highly suspicious and untrustworthy, being from a bunch of vicious blood-thirsty murderers and monsters bent on maintaining iron fisted control via terror by masquerading under the banner of a religion. How is anyone to know whether they will be happy together if they aren't allowed to see each other first? Personal responsibility for conduct cannot be usurped by any community or organization. Arranged marriages in the west are considered by many to be the leftovers of fascist oppression.....rather like the days when Stalin sought to micromanage Russian culture and dictate to people how to live lest they be arrested by the KGB, taken out during the middle of the night and shot. The exercise and strengthening of any free people demands that people must educate themselves, must be unafraid to live life, to expose themselves to tests and trial, must be strong and protect themselves from harmful things. This puts morals and faith to the test - nothing to be ashamed of. Not to run and hide in a cave at the first sniff of anything different. She sounds like a very nice young lady and he a fine young gentleman. I wish them well. I wish them strength against the many bigots, fascists and devils who will in the name of religion put so many stumbling blocks in front of them, who want to see them fail to boost their own position and take great delight in this - all because they love one another and want to let their love grow together. You can't accuse anyone of a sin they haven't committed. THAT is a sin. And even then, no person has the right to condemn another unless their own hands are completely free of sin. The pre-emptive principle in action. That would be like arresting and jailing someone because they are hungry for food but cannot buy any, out of fear they MIGHT steal. Same mindset on a larger scale: George W Bush employs in his pre-emptive strikes, attacks a country because they might pose a threat in the future - just as stupid and short sighted. Temptation isn't committing a sin as the prophet Jesus demonstrated. Muslims are just as obligated to follow, obey and comprehend the teachings of earlier prophets as they are Muhammad. All prophets are equal under God and their teachings are all as valid, all in accordance with God. We're all made of stuff so temptable. We're made this way by no accident but to prove to us how much we need God's guidance in life. Through this, being strong in faith and hope, enduring and passing temptation is a good thing to strengthen the faith and lets you rely on God more. I'm done. Go ahead and censor me. |
| Re: American almost 18 year old daughter dating 21 |
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| jannah |
| 12/26/04 at 19:52:29 |
| Georger, I truly think your advice is on par with bhaloo's... just but in the opposite extreme direction. Just out of curiosity, are you Muslim? As Muslims we do believe in earlier prophets and messengers, but that doesn't make what current Christians and Jews practice and believe divine. What was revealed to them from a true source has been changed and forgotten, thus necessating the need for the last prophet Muhammad. This last message completes and ABROGATES what came before it. There are differences between other religions and Islam, and there are rules that may be different as well. Thus "dating" is not allowed in Islam. They are allowed to meet each other and talk and discuss in the presence of others in order to determine whether they are compatable for marriage. This is NOT medieval, these are the morals of Islam, and interestingly enough the morals of even North Americans until 50 years ago. As for your whole TNT argument that doesn't make sense as Islam does not condone violence against innocent people. No Islamic scholar can make it "condoned" either, nor has any. Perhaps there is a need to understand just who is a scholar, and that a person spouting polemics on CNN does not make one a scholar of Islam. There seems to be extreme confusion in your posts on what is Islam and what isn't. The only way to understand this is through learning more about Islam and its teachings. Islam is not a religion that teaches that "everything is ok as long as it feels right", because it is from a Divine source, and the Divine knows that each person thinks differently. So perhaps to you an 'arranged marriage' where possible spouses are introduced to each other through family and community members (where they obviously do see and meet each other) seems medieval and archaic, but to others it is a practical way to find a spouse and even preferable to the abuse and use of women that goes under the guise of "dating" nowadays. |
| 12/26/04 at 19:53:14 |
| jannah |
| Re: American almost 18 year old daughter dating 21 |
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| bhaloo |
| 12/26/04 at 21:00:56 |
| [slm] Georger, what are you thinking? ??? See Jannah's response to you, it addresses how I feel, better then I can express myself right now. Jannah, what is wrong in telling her that dating is not allowed in Islam and if they love each other they should get married? ??? How is this extreme? (I didn't know the woman's daughter was a non-Muslim, if she is then under certain circumstances she could get married to him). Marriage will keep them away from doing major sins and contributing to immorality in society. |
| 12/26/04 at 21:03:39 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: American almost 18 year old daughter dating 21 |
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| georger |
| 12/26/04 at 21:06:00 |
| [quote author=jannah link=board=madrasa;num=1104076275;start=0#5 date=12/26/04 at 19:52:29]Georger, I truly think your advice is on par with bhaloo's... just but in the opposite extreme direction. Just out of curiosity, are you Muslim?[/quote] Please put all words in English. I speak and know no Arabic. Yes I do consider myself yesterday, today and tomorrow to be a believer in one true God, one who tries his best to be a Muslim. No man can call himself truly Muslim because that would imply achieving the perfect goal, something no man has or is capable of doing. [quote author=jannah link=board=madrasa;num=1104076275;start=0#5 date=12/26/04 at 19:52:29]As Muslims we do believe in earlier prophets and messengers, but that doesn't make what current Christians and Jews practice and believe divine. What was revealed to them from a true source has been changed and forgotten, thus necessating the need for the last prophet Muhammad. This last message completes and ABROGATES what came before it. [/quote] No that is a human creation. There is NO verse in the Quran that comes right out and says this (insert name here) prophet's message has been abrogated. To suggest that this happened would mean God cannot sustain truth consistently and that God would mislead people through his prophets, by changing the message. God is consistent, true and right. Only Satan is the misleading one, the one who suggests there is error and inconsistency in God when even Satan knows this to be a lie, when even Satan knows God is consistent, true and never failing in His mighty word and deed. God does NOT change. His message does not change. Only the people change. It is people who are picking to follow only one prophet - Jesus as the Christians do, and Mohammed as the Muslims do - and ignore the message of all others. There is nothing in the Quran to even hint that any other prophets are to be ignored. Most of the prophets from the Christian Old testament are clearly spoken of in the Quran and the reason they are spoken of is because God created them to be listened to. It is written (and I paraphrase here) that no prophets come without God's word, and that God never changes. To suggest abrogation of God's message and therefore God's heart is a petty and worthless human creation, not worth following or even acknowledging - and just as bad as calling Christ the son of God when Christ was by his own acknowledgement a prophet, a son of man. We cannot know if anything has ever been abrogated - the idea is only touched upon in the Quran. No verse ever comes out and boldly and deliberately states (as all other verses state other matters so boldly) that the teachings of (insert name here) prophet must now be cancelled because the new prophet contradicts him or her. I have read my Quran daily since 1998 - over and over - and that has never been said and it is wrong to assume anything has been cancelled out of anything God's prophets have taught. [quote author=jannah link=board=madrasa;num=1104076275;start=0#5 date=12/26/04 at 19:52:29]There are differences between other religions and Islam, and there are rules that may be different as well.[/quote] Yes but whose rules? Humans who make up their own traditions and rules in the name of their religion? Didn't Mohammed warn about sticking with traditions just because "we found our fathers following this"? Isn't that what's happening again today, people following the traditions because they are told they have to, because they are Muslim traditions but traditions nonetheless? Where is the critical thinking today that Mohammed so clearly illustrated when he first started teaching in his community? [quote author=jannah link=board=madrasa;num=1104076275;start=0#5 date=12/26/04 at 19:52:29]Thus "dating" is not allowed in Islam. They are allowed to meet each other and talk and discuss in the presence of others in order to determine whether they are compatable for marriage. This is NOT medieval, these are the morals of Islam, and interestingly enough the morals of even North Americans until 50 years ago. As for your whole TNT argument that doesn't make sense as Islam does not condone violence against innocent people. No Islamic scholar can make it "condoned" either, nor has any. Perhaps there is a need to understand just who is a scholar, and that a person spouting polemics on CNN does not make one a scholar of Islam.[/quote] And yet it continues to happen today as it has for years before this. Obviously there is leadership there that IS condoning it. http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/12/25/iraq-bomb-041225.html Consider - if this happens outside or inside and you say there are scholars and leaders there who do not condone it - they are NOT doing their job because it is still happening. How corrupt the practice of such a fine religion becomes when people in power focus only on tradition, on the worship of tradition and culture, never relenting in war and tribal ways, twisting it and perverting it away from the pure and unadulterated meaning. [quote author=jannah link=board=madrasa;num=1104076275;start=0#5 date=12/26/04 at 19:52:29]There seems to be extreme confusion in your posts on what is Islam and what isn't. The only way to understand this is through learning more about Islam and its teachings. Islam is not a religion that teaches that "everything is ok as long as it feels right", because it is from a Divine source, and the Divine knows that each person thinks differently. So perhaps to you an 'arranged marriage' where possible spouses are introduced to each other through family and community members (where they obviously do see and meet each other) seems medieval and archaic, but to others it is a practical way to find a spouse and even preferable to the abuse and use of women that goes under the guise of "dating" nowadays.[/quote] I am not confused. And please do not group me into the "everything is ok as long as it feels right" crowd. I am a very conservative person. And "dating" while portrayed stupidly in the media, still works to weed out the bad choices whereas an arranged marriage may give little or no choice to the woman (who out of respect to her parent's wishes will suffer greatly if the husband turns out to be an evil man or worse, a murderer). I also know of the teachings of the other prophets. Before converting to Islam I sought to study to become a priest. But circumstances prevented me from completing all steps. The behaviour of Muslims in the birth land of Islam is inconsistent with the teachings of ANY of the prophets. None of them condoned strapping on explosives and blowing up buses, buildings, other innocent bystanders, certainly not in God's name! It is shameful and irrational. It makes me feel ashamed to associate with such people who seem to silently tolerate such blasphemy. It shouldn't happen because the Quran isn't confusing at all. It comes easily. It fits right in with the Hebrew and Christian prophets - again all from the same one true living God. When one hears from latter day Muslims who in that climate of war and death prescribe regressive advice to all others - including advice to band together and kill, as Bin Laden has often said and encouraged, can you really and truly believe this demonstrates all of the good and beautiful qualities God endowed mankind with, to be God's servant on earth? My faith has remained clear and pure since my childhood. Right forever remains right, and wrong forever remains wrong. There have been times when I have been spoken to by a higher power in my childhood, given hope and a vision. What my eyes see when others abuse the public representation of hope and faith in God....the continued spread of hatred against Jews who are your brothers, the suicide bombings, the very notion that these same people who do these horrible things can simultaneously turn around and claim they are motivated by God who does not act against His goodness, His mercy and His wisdom.....when I recall the death threat made against me a few years ago by an elderly Muslim man because I refused to permit him to make me over into his image of Islam.... It is wrong. And God does not support wrong. No wonder the middle east, the birthplace of Islam, has deteriorated into a pit of venomous snakes for so many years. People who assume power have taken, abased and abused Islam into a culture, into a tradition which crushes souls and offers only martyrdom in exchange for the blood of children against anything the leaders feel threatened by. People of hope and faith have to stand up and say "ENOUGH". People are not to condemn one another if they expect God to be merciful on them. Muslims must not be blinded by the concept of "tradition" into picking and choosing which prophet to ignore, since God does not created prophets to be ignored nor abrogated. The message of Abraham, of Moses, of Jesus and of Mohammed is just as valid today as it ever has been. They are all compatible with each other and most importantly, all from the one true God who does not change. Why aren't we making the world a better place instead of being on the edge of world war? Are we not all people of the book? And is not the book from the one true God? Please understand....in the beginning God created everything Good. There was no war, no crazy people who twisted God's truth into self slaughter. I bear witness against the lunacy of the world in God's holy name, in the senseless death, misery, poverty and fear propogated in God's name. I owe no loyalty to anyone, no loyalty to their political cause or beliefs regardless of what their lips state today when lies and corruption abound, and will not submit to any human even if threatened with death again - the worst a human can do is kill my body. I will submit only to God and God knows what I am speaking is from the heart, is from my faith and hope and belief in His unlimited vision, His depth, understanding, compassion and mercy. We should all live for the peace God originally created, live for giving the greatest good to God, to "seek His face". The way the world is going, with international threatenings and attacks against innocent people in God's holy name, this is NOT the right way for humanity to behave if it has any sense of gratitude towards life and love. |
| 12/26/04 at 21:59:22 |
| georger |
| Re: American almost 18 year old daughter dating 21 |
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| jannah |
| 12/26/04 at 22:15:02 |
| Georger, I am glad that you consider yourself Muslim. Indeed no one can be a perfect Muslim, but that is all our goal and what we strive for I think. Because being Muslim means we submit to the One God and this is what we try to do every day. As a Muslim you must believe that the Quran is the literal word of God. And that yes he sent other prophets and books even. However these books were changed and diluted over time. Even scholars of other faiths know that their books have been changed, written and re-written. They are NOT the word of God any more. They are the words of men. The Quran is the only book that has been preserved, memorized and carries on the true Message calling people to God. No doubt all the messages previously that came were correct, and they were all prophets of God. But the bible today and the torah today and the existing books today can no longer be considered the word of God. Even in the Quran it says, This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. (Quran 5:4) 003.085 If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). Thus God sent true prophets, but it is HUMAN beings that changed the message and that is why He kept sending prohets to remind us after our lapses. Only Allah knows best why Muhammad is the last prophet.. maybe because our technology is advanced enough that it is able to preserve the message for longer over time and ages. We can say we follow Jesus, but his message has been lost, all we know that is true about Jesus is from the Quran. Even if the true bible were to show up in our hands miraculously it does not matter because the Quran did abrogate what came before it. The message is the same but the laws may be different. For example the Quran and Sunnah tells us the Jews had certain stricter laws that they had to follow from Moses. And for us we may have different laws such as alcohol being forbidden. As for the link with the story about suicide bombers, that topic is banned on the board for this very reason. Can you tell me why there are so many Christian men that beat their wives? Or why the IRA continues to terrorize people? or the Tamil Tigers (Hindus) even? Why are there story after story of the US torturing innocent prisoners in the most humiliating inhumane abhorrent way? Who are you going to blame? Why haven't the Christian scholars or Hindu scholars spoken out about these things?? What exactly do they have to do with these things right? The scholars of Islam have made their voice clear, that the world public refuses to publicize it is their failing, not anyone elses. Correlation does not imply causation remember. Again there is a need to learn what is religion and what is tradition. Dating in the western sense goes against our religion, that's plain and simple because pre-marital relationships are not allowed period. Forcing people to marry without their consent is culture. By law in Islam the girl has to be asked whether she consents to the marriage.This is religion. Having an abusive husband etc, this is culture or just happenstance. It's correlation because it happens in every culture and religion. As for "the behavior of Muslims in the birth land of Islam" Have you ever been there? Ever met a real saudi? Ever been to the Middle East to say it is a "pit of snakes"? There are good and bad just like any place. There are the most sincere Muslims I've ever met in any land on Earth and there are those who make me ashamed to say that they use the name Muslim for themselves. You make a good argument against suicide bombings, but again that is a banned topic, so I hope we can speak on other issues. |
| Re: Dating vs Arranged marriage, etc |
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| georger |
| 12/26/04 at 23:35:18 |
| [quote] As for "the behavior of Muslims in the birth land of Islam" Have you ever been there? Ever met a real saudi? Ever been to the Middle East to say it is a "pit of snakes"? There are good and bad just like any place. There are the most sincere Muslims I've ever met in any land on Earth and there are those who make me ashamed to say that they use the name Muslim for themselves.[/quote] Basically this topic begs to ask "Who is on the right path". First, I really feel that no Muslim from the east can say they follow Jesus simply because there is no record of Jesus' teachings, his words and actions recorded in the Quran. His birth and general characteristics are covered but that's ALL! Nothing else! From my studies, Jesus was a pretty busy guy. And yes I don't doubt there is come corruption in the Bible. It's been written to make people pray and worship Jesus as a god. But if God guides you, you can "read between the lines" and see the meat of Jesus' work and message. This is also confirmed in the teachings of other prophets - including Mohammed. Because a false prophet will demonstrate false characteristics, not in alignment with the others. A true prophet will demonstrate true, aligned characteristics. Teachings aside, let's look at the real world aspects that haunt mankind today, including the threat of terrorism. While the USA has their share of crackpots and lunatics, it doesn't even begin to compare to Al Queda, the Taliban and their activities. You don't need a PhD in rocket science to understand that. An old and trusted friend of mine spent a year in Jerusalem a couple of years back. She wrote me and told me of some of the attacks that happened in the city. One attack happened across the street from her as she stood on the sidewalk - a Muslim from Palestine knocked out the driver, took over the bus and drove a bus full of passengers into a packed bus stop in a suicide attack. The bus crashes, caught fire. I needn't go into further details. This junk has been going on for decades! She was very glad to be back on Canadian soil! And yes I have worked for a company where it was a mix of Hindus, Christians and Muslims. My very same friend worked there as well after coming back from Jerusalem. I worked there for about a year and a half. Of the people who were Muslims, a few of them were very kind and open. One Muslim, a kind hearted man named "Moe" who immigrated from Africa I became good friends with. He never closed his mind to the validity of other monotheistic beliefs and their origin. He was very kind, decent, respectful, respectable and didn't have a hateful bone in his body! The other Muslims were so "pious" in their own minds they wouldn't give you a simple hello, though their English was not defective. Is such arrogance normal? It's pretty shameful. Where are the GOOD FRUITS of such a religion as Islam? Where are they? Because even if the Quran has been purged of impurities as you point out, this is no sign of an advanced people living to the high standards of their religion. The photos and reports on the news aren't science fiction - they're a sign of a civilization decaying to the point of no return, of in-fighting, of sheer brutalism. If one were asked to gauge which civilization - in spite of their accumulated corruption - were better educated, more scientifically advanced, more tolerant and lived in greater peace, then even with all of the faults of the capitalist system in the west and in Europe, the west and Europe would still come out ahead. Even if the other texts and teachings are abrogated as you say, this is even WORSE - for it still shows a HORRIBLE example of Muslims behaving in the most awful manner when inspired solely by their own religion, their own closed culture and traditions. And they cannot blame their behaviour on corruption of the Quran because you said previous teachings have been abrogated from it. So where is today's good fruit of such knowledge and teachings and how does it compensate for the evil men do? I am aware of the advanced state of Muslim knowledge dating from the 1600s on. But this is 2004, going onto 2005. Looking at things today there is virtually no trace of this every having existed. When I converted to Islam in '98, THIS was not what I converted for, to be sent back to a mentality to live as people did in the year 700 in a warrior society - to make life hell on earth. There is no possible cause a man may take up which would justify such truly horrid behaviour! Such behaviour casts a shadow of doubt on the validity of the suggestion that Islam is truly a religion of peace, something Muslims here in the west are trying to demonstrate since 9/11. I might suggest that if topics weren't considered forbidden to discuss, if Muslims were to actually open up and start talking about these topics and risk the hurt feelings, maybe something would start to turn around. Otherwise the same old things will just keep circulating around and around, everybody being afraid to question and make improvements, and nobody will work to put evil in it's place. All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. If the current situation remains unrectified, no amount of boasts claiming peace from some Muslims will alter the reality that makes the news every day and threatens the peace of people worldwide. |
| 12/26/04 at 23:45:33 |
| georger |
| Re: Dating vs Arranged marriage, etc |
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| jannah |
| 12/26/04 at 23:44:23 |
| [quote]I might suggest that if topics weren't considered forbidden to discuss, if Muslims were to actually open up and start talking about these topics and risk the hurt feelings, maybe something would start to turn around. [/quote] I might agree except for we've never been able to cordially discuss such controversial subjects such as these (at least on this board). They end up always being extremely negative and progress into the personal until ppl turn away from Islam instead of seeking answers from within it. |
| Re: Dating vs Arranged marriage, etc |
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| eleanor |
| 12/27/04 at 05:05:48 |
| [slm] Georger, I have been fascinated by your posts which I have just discovered over the last few days... (plenty of time for reading over the weekend)... I agree with you on many points and on others I disagree but I am not going to go into it because I don't have enough knowledge to back up my points. One thing in your last post did however stand out and I wanted to question you about it - [quote author=georger link=board=madrasa;num=1104111974;start=0#6 date=12/26/04 at 23:35:18] Otherwise the same old things will just keep circulating around and around, everybody being afraid to question and make improvements, and nobody will work to put evil in it's place.[/quote] People making "improvements" ie. changes. For better or for worse. If people start messing around with the only truth we have left - the Quran - then we will be in the same position as the Christians and Jews..no real authoratative source to refer to. And you have mentioned in previous posts that you do not take much heed of scholars or their take on things, since these are just words of men and not of God. If you are advocating improvement, change etc, then who exactly in your opinion is qualified to make these changes and improvements? If not scholars, who for the most part since childhood have been studying islam, then who? Me? You? Just make changes in our own lives, in our own interpretation of the deen? This is actually what is happening all over the world. You have one group saying sure, homosexuality is fine in islam; another is saying alcohol is ok in moderation, others are saying yep, we can go and blow up civilians... What is missing in islam is a caliph, a leader. We have enough people willing to blow off and let themselves be heard. I don't really know where I am going with this post, so I am sorry if you haven't been able to follow it. Please know that I am a revert too, and I am struggling every day to reconcile what I too find to be medieval practices with the life and attitudes that I grew up with. Just somehow I don't think that I have the authority to go around adapting islam to suit myself. Frankly I would be too scared to. with regards, peace Eleanor |
| Re: Dating vs Arranged marriage, etc |
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| UmmWafi |
| 12/27/04 at 06:42:23 |
| [slm] everyone My reply is not even to the original post ::) Bro Georger, You mentioned that we none of us can call ourselves truly Muslim because that would indicate we have achieved perfection for ourself, something which is impossible. That being the case, how then can we authoritatively decide what is right and what is wrong for ourselves and for others too, especially given the fact that we are definitely not a holistic scholar of Islam ? Bro Bhaloo posted some hadiths for our consideration. Regardless of whether I agree or disagree with the tone of the post, I do know that my reply in return must be in accordance to adab (please refer to Imam al-Ghazzali's treatise on Ethics of Disagreement). BTW, I very much doubt that the West is THE supreme authority on the world's morals and conduct. I mean, in most Western countries where legalised sex acts and nudity are the MAIN source of tax revenues for the government, calling arranged marriages leftovers of fascist oppression is kinda laughable. I wouldn't lose sleep over how the Bushes Sr and Jr view my behaviour, believe me. Peace |
| 12/27/04 at 06:45:14 |
| UmmWafi |
| Re: Dating vs Arranged marriage, etc |
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| georger |
| 12/27/04 at 07:59:17 |
| Eleanor: If anyone thinks one isn't scared when they hear about the horrors in the middle east.....they must have their head buried in the sand or something. Your post highlights the big problem I've been articulating - in spite of people claiming right guidance from the Quran and Islam, life has gotten worse for many people. I pity the people who live in Afghanistan, in Iraq. Nobody born out of love deserves to see their lives ripped apart like that. How can that be if the claim is right guidance in a closed social/religious system? And if nobody who sees this makes a start towards some positive action out of fear of being unauthorized or not based on the Quran......will the cycle of anger and hatred ever cease? You asked who is qualified. Hey, if I knew that I wouldn't waste time posting - I'd go and knock on that person's door. That's my point - to try and overcome inertia and get people talking and thinking that maybe it isn't a matter of waiting for one person, waiting for someone else. Maybe we mustn't wait for someone else. Maybe we are all qualified by the simple virtue of being alive, being here and seeking to do some good in this world before we take the big dirt nap. After all, what separates us from someone who takes action for good? We all have mouths, minds, means of motion, eyes to see, ears to hear. Do we lack heart to feel the urgency? But let's just make a start and admit that change - in the positive direction - is desperately needed. Maybe it's not about any one person leading. Maybe it's about each person being the best leader they can be, feeling a responsibility to the community, to be God's servant through good examples, living the ideal through good actions and in restraining evil and harsh, hasty plans as best as possible. This doesn't exist in the east, but here in the west the land was populated with a race of people - erroneously called "Indians" but in fact were many different nations, just as Europe is partitioned into different countries - many of whom also had their faith in one true God (in their own language of course) and their own long-lived way. How can one tell? Read the English translations pertaining to issues of conduct and faith among them - though their history differs their statements are identical in rule, in measure, in quality to everything God has ever sent down to mankind. And what has God sent down to mankind? Rules for sustaining good self-conduct, to cause no harm, to love one's neighbour, to seek to follow wisdom and learn the value of humility. One standard by which First Nations people measured an idea was to project it several generations into the future, to see whether it caused harm or good. I wonder if such a concept could take a good root in the east because whether it's written in the Quran or not, if people would have to think of the very long term consequences of their actions, there'd probably be alot less bloodshed.....unless they ARE thinking of long term bloodshed in the first place, in which case they have to be stopped, right! UmmWafi: That's right. We can't always know what is right and wrong. So if people were to realize that, maybe when they get an idea to do something drastic and cause harm to others, they might humble themselves, might restrain themselves and take pause. Within that pause the small voice of conscience might make a breakthrough. As the status quo exists, some people are far too confident their actions are supported by God because they seek to imitate the actions of war, the taking up of the sword - and so some truly awful things happen. And the rest of the people, terrified or shocked, remain silenced out of fear of seeming to be dissenting and rebellious. I never claimed the west IS a supreme authority. God knows there is plenty of corruption here too. I've often thought about this....that a truly caring society, comprehensive of human weakness, would remove all harmful things from the path of it's most vulnerable members. When I look and think, I see that there are businesses and hearts based on exploiting the most vulnerable members, causing harm. I often think and reflect on how the lives of people would be if some things were simply not permitted to be. But in the west there is also much good among the ordinary people, the majority of whom are peaceful, God fearing, generous and compassionate, regardless of their stated religion. One significant example I can think of is Martin Luther King and how he advocated peaceful revolution against the tyranny of bigotry. Isn't that the best form of religion - what we DO? There's nothing esoteric about God's word. Be good, do no harm, do not kill, and remember the golden rule. Yet the east for any claim it makes to be rightly guided by the morality of Islam....all you have to do is pay attention to the news and you see the fruit of such beliefs. Of late it has been that religious fanatics have been employing women as suicide warriors. Even young children are sometimes the victims of these attacks, simply being in the wrong place in the wrong time. What manner of devilish sickness is this which condones and set such things into motion? Surely nobody with an atom's weight of sense would call that rightly guided - yet apparently there are more than enough who do believe it and take action upon it in God's name. Which then is worse? Those who act devilishly out of the claim of being rightly guided, or the lesser troubles you've noted as being a source of tax revenue? Seems to me that those who do evil in God's name are guilty of something far worse - blasphemy. The others are simply wrongly guided, as is the nature of appetites of the flesh and may be set straight in God's good time. And it tears one's heart out to hear of husbands killing their wives - in many instances as I have recollection over the years these are also arranged marriages where the woman had no say but had to obey her parents and marry a creep. Arranged marriages may often be set not for the well being of the children as much as it may be for the consolidation of family material wealth. And wealth does not equate good, love and compassion - usually it works out the opposite way. At least if young people are permitted to choose, the issue of material wealth and filtering out the creeps is under control and affection and compassion may win the day, whereas there is no telling whether the parents who arrange a marriage are rightly guided by the well being of their children or are guided by material gains only - no telling that is, until it is too late. |
| 12/27/04 at 08:07:05 |
| georger |
| Re: Dating vs Arranged marriage, etc |
|---|
| jannah |
| 12/27/04 at 15:11:44 |
| This thread keeps coming back to the topic of suicide/martyr stuff and this is a banned topic. If anyone would like to continue the discussion about dating vs arranged marriages or culture versus religion please start a new thread and do not bring that topic back into the discussion. |
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