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| Dating vs arranged marriages Part #2 |
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| Caraj |
| 12/27/04 at 18:56:25 |
| OK, I was busy and could not respond. And I see you all went and got that thread locked >:( So don't let it happen to this one ok? ;) tsk tsk, I leave for 3 days and you all go and get in trouble ;) I see such good and bad in both. There is another method I actually like and I think it is called courting. The couple is allowed to get to know one anthoer only through time spent with each others family, never left alone. Each goes to family functions like, dinners, events and picnics. The couple may be able to exchange words while other family members are near by but not left alone. The male might spend additional time alone with the girls father. The girl time alone with her potiential MIL. This goes on for months if not a year or two. I confess I have not read word for word the prior post, just bits and pieces. I am of the understanding arranged marriages without the total consent of the couple is not of Islam. Dating I see puts many stresses and temptations on a man and a woman yet, arranged marriages without both parties total consent and willingness can end in disaster. It has happen to at least 2 sister who are or have been on this board in the last 3 years. I know this. They felt pressured by family, a family who they could not stand up to. And they regreted it. I think Mosques, sisters and brothers should teach all their family members to look out for the happiness and the best interest of the woman and man who are to be getting married. I know 2 Christian families who have daughters 16 to 19 y/o and they are not allowed to date. Only young men with marriage in mind are allowed (one at a time, not several during the same time frame) they can come over and have dinner with the family, attend church, go to Birthday parties or picnics, come over to watch a movei or play a game, and this is how they allow the daughters to learn about a potiential husband. |
| 12/27/04 at 18:59:39 |
| Caraj |
| Re: Dating vs arranged marriages Part #2 |
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| bhaloo |
| 12/27/04 at 19:52:05 |
| [slm] A group of Islamic researchers at http://www.islamonline.net addressed the question: Question: Dear Sheikh! As-Salam `Alaykum! I am a Muslim living in the West. In one of my discussions with my non-Muslim friends, they ask me: “Do you Muslims date before marriage?” Can you answer them? Content of Reply Wa `Alaykum As-Salam Wa Rahmatullah Wa Barakatuh. In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. All thanks and praise are due to Allah and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger. Dear questioner! Thanks a lot for your good question that reflects a deep desire and keenness on understanding the teachings of Islam. Islam is the fountain of guidance, the source of happiness and the repose of purity and chastity. This question revolves around the issue of choosing a life partner. How does Islam view it? Does it need dating to decide whom to marry? In the first place, there are two main points to be highlighted and stressed: 1- Islam combats evil inclinations, wicked desires and corrupt tendencies. It forbids involvement in sin or even approaching it. It calls for purity, cleanliness and chastity in word and deed. 2- Islam offers lawful alternatives and pure channels for satisfying human desires. It forbids adultery, but urges marriage. It sanctions illicit affairs or dating, but provides clear ways of proposing to a woman in marriage. It forbids any kind of liaison or affairs between unmarried male and female or being together without a Mahram. So what Islam caters for here is organizing man’s conduct in a way that will bring him benefit and enhance stability and ethical values in the society. Coming to the question in point, we’d like to make it clear to you that "dating, as it is currently practiced in much of the world does not exist among Muslims -- where a young man and woman (or boy/girl) are in a one-on-one intimate relationship, spending time together alone, "getting to know each other" in a very deep way before deciding whether that's the person they will marry. Rather, in Islam pre-marital relationship of any kind between members of the opposite sex is forbidden. The choice of a marriage partner is one of the most important decisions a person will make in his or her lifetime. It should not be taken lightly, nor left to chance or hormones. It should be taken as seriously as any other major decision in life: with prayer, careful investigation, and family involvement. So, in today's world, how do young people manage? First of all, Muslim youth develop very close friendships with their same-sex peers. This "sisterhood" or "brotherhood" that develops when they are young continues throughout their lives. When a young person decides to get married, the following steps often take place: 1-Young person makes Du`a (supplication) to Allah to help him or her find the right person. 2-The family enquires, discusses, and suggests candidates. They consult with each other to narrow down potential prospects. Usually the father or mother approaches the other family to suggest a meeting. 3-Couple agrees to meet in chaperoned, group environment. `Umar quotes the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, as saying: “Not one of you should meet a woman alone unless she is accompanied by a relative Mahram” (Reported by Bukhari and Muslim). The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is also quoted as saying: “Whenever a man is alone with a woman, Satan is the third among them” (Reported by At-Tirmidhi). When young people are getting to know each other, being alone together is a temptation toward wrongdoing. At all times, Muslims should follow the commands of the Qur'an to “lower their gaze and guard their modesty...." (An-Nour: 30-31) Islam recognizes that we are human and are given to human weakness, so this rule provides safeguards for our own sake. 4-Family investigates candidate further - talking with friends, family, Islamic leaders, co-workers, etc. to learn about his or her character. 5-Couple prays Salatul-Istikharah(Prayer of Seeking Allah’s Guidance) to seek Allah's help in making a decision. 6-Couple agrees to pursue marriage or part ways. Islam has given this freedom of choice to both young men and women - they cannot be forced into a marriage that they don't want. This type of focused courtship helps ensure the strength of the marriage, by drawing upon family elders' wisdom and guidance in this important life decision. Family involvement in the choice of a marriage partner helps assure that the choice is based not on romantic notions, but rather on a careful, objective evaluation of the compatibility of the couple. That is why these marriages often prove successful.” Almighty Allah knows best. |
| 12/27/04 at 19:52:39 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: Â Dating vs arranged marriages Part #2 |
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| Laila_Y_A |
| 12/27/04 at 23:10:00 |
| [slm] In the area in which I live, there are not many avenues for Islamic "dating", if there were such a thing. Rural, and or small urban areas have little to offer non-Muslims, let alone Muslims, in that such public entertainment as bowling and skating have nearly died out, leaving movie theaters, bars and the like. None are conducive to conversation, nor halal meetings. I, at 54, could not go there to meet a prospective mate, even with all my life knowledge, yet we let the young fester with the lack of halal meeting places, setting them up for such things as "dating" and the possibility of haram outcomes. Perhaps we, the older Muslim community, could arrange something so that those who wish to meet properly for the intent of looking for mates could do so in an atmosphere that is totally relaxed, and at the same time halal- meeting the needs of those involved, and the ideals of Islam. Just an old single Muslimah's thoughts. [wlm] :-) Laila |
| Re: Dating vs arranged marriages Part #2 |
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| muslimah853 |
| 12/27/04 at 23:11:29 |
| [slm] Azizah, it's interesting that you bring up courting, because a generation or two ago this used to be pretty normal here in the US. A man had to ask permission from the girl's family, there would often be a specific day of the week when he would be allowed to come around to visit--and depending on the strictness of the family in question--he was never allowed to be alone with her. Maybe just outside of earshot of the rest of the family, but not alone. In fact, since I've beocome Muslim, I've found very few people who have 'real' arranged marriages--where the setup is totally done by the families and the bride and groom are more or less along for the ride. And even the one couple I know who went this route--it was their decision--the girl had that much trust in her family, masha'allah. They are a very happy couple. Most Muslim couples do a courtship type thing--where it is clear from the outset that the intention is marriage if the two find that they are compatible. The marriage is 'arranged' in the sense that families very often set people up to meet each other--to determine compatibility (or not). Before I was Muslim, I always thought that most Muslims had a real arranged deal--you know, your family hooks you up with someone, you have no say, you don't even see them until the wedding. That generally doesn't happen. |
| Re: Dating vs arranged marriages Part #2 |
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| Caraj |
| 12/28/04 at 00:07:31 |
| ok, now maybe Bhaloo or someone else can help with this. 1) What does Islam say about consent of the woman? (or even the man) 2) How are parents suppose to treat the adult children? I know in the Bible it says to honor they father and mother. It also says Parents do not cause your children to wrath (or anger) sorry I can't remember the exact wording. What does the Quran say about parents to children? One thing I have learned is to say What does Islam and /or the Quran say about something. I am learning one of the biggest misconceptions of Islam is people get confused and get islam mixed up with many things that are cultural and not Islamic. I am very big on the courting thing. Maybe some can discuss it. Meeting in a public situation always. Picnics, classes. Do any Mosques have pre marriage classes? How to be a husband and wife. How to communicate? Many Christian churches require such a course usually given by the pastor himself, which is once a week for a couple months. And won't marry a person without counseling and even classes. Is this something the Islamic community is doing or would suggest in your community? I actually think there should be bro's and sisters only classes along with a couple class or a series of meetings between the couple and Iman (did I spell that right) or sheikh (if I have the understanding of sheikh right as a mature, well educated, well respected wise man type) In bhaloos post #3, wouldn't one agree should be several times over weeks if not months? What can you (you meaning anyone reading this) do to make things easier for singles looking to find a marriage partner in your community? Suggestions? And are you wiling to present such suggestions to the leaders in your community? Parent education about what rights Islam gives their sons or daughters? |
| Re: Dating vs arranged marriages Part #2 |
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| jannah |
| 12/28/04 at 01:21:08 |
| [wlm] To help with (1) one of the requirements of a legal marriage in Islam is theut of altruistic causes or reasons but out of GREED. Because this is a board about Islam, I've sought to NOT bring the evils, the avarice and greed of western politics here, seeking only to try and discuss about how Islam can be applied as the universal solution it can be. But leadership in the west is often (mis)led under the power of an idol - money - and behaves appropriately. A monkey behaves like a monkey, and greedy people behave as greed dictates. It's as clear as 2+2=4. I would have expected better from the east. Still it takes two to tango, or to sustain war. There remains blood on hands on both sides. [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=madrasa;num=1103639054;start=20#25 date=01/03/05 at 15:31:00]NOT the sanitized CNN version that contends the rest of the world is evil; while our precious administration could do no wrong.[/quote] Perhaps there was a misconception. I am not American (*eek!*). I don't watch CNN. I don't even have cable. I am a Canadian and opposed te candidates for their children, but in the end it is always their choice. Also it is encouraged for each to see and meet each other in order to determine if they want to marry. Muslimah853 thanx for the reminder about how similiar the Islamic way is to the old courtship ways. Azizah u da bomb ;) I was just saying to myself this morning.. where is azizah when we need her!!! :D |
| Re: Dating vs arranged marriages Part #2 |
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| Caraj |
| 12/28/04 at 02:30:28 |
| [quote author=jannah link=board=madrasa;num=1104188186;start=0#5 date=12/28/04 at 01:21:08][wlm] To help with (1) one of the requirements of a legal marriage in Islam is the daughter/woman's consent. They literally have to go to her and ASK her if she consents to the marriage during the ceremony. If she does not do this the marriage is not legal. This Islamic law was revolutionary because for the first time women had a say in their marriage. It changed the whole culture of marriage and gave women a say in a very powerful area. (Now no doubt there may be people who force their daughters to consent and abuse this, but that has nothing to do with Islam.) [/quote] Ok, now heres the biggie questions. 1) How do we give sisters the strenght to stand up and say no when they feel in their heart and souls this is not right, I don't want to do this, but fear causing embarrassment or shame to herself or her family? 2) How do we teach parents not to put their daughters (or sons) in that postion. What about the anon sister last year that was just a week away from her wedding and felt with all the invitations and arrangement she could not back down without causing embarrassment or worried about the expense her family already went to? The guests already invited? These are the things we need to educate our families and community about. |
| 12/28/04 at 02:38:40 |
| Caraj |
| Re: Dating vs arranged marriages Part #2 |
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| Fozia |
| 12/28/04 at 07:40:48 |
| [quote author=azizah link=board=madrasa;num=1104188186;start=0#6 date=12/28/04 at 02:30:28] Ok, now heres the biggie questions. 1) How do we give sisters the strenght to stand up and say no when they feel in their heart and souls this is not right, I don't want to do this, but fear causing embarrassment or shame to herself or her family? 2) How do we teach parents not to put their daughters (or sons) in that postion. What about the anon sister last year that was just a week away from her wedding and felt with all the invitations and arrangement she could not back down without causing embarrassment or worried about the expense her family already went to? The guests already invited? These are the things we need to educate our families and community about. [/quote] [slm] Mostly the yea or nay has been decided before one gets to the wedding. If I remember the situation you mention correctly, the sister in question only realised after the engagement what her future husband was like. Generally, the prospective suitor is vetted thoroughly by the men in the girls family before he's allowed anywhere near her, and then once he's found to be good enough he is allowed to see/speak to the girl. I guess sometimes this can go awry but mostly it works. It is hard though if the girl is feeling pressurized into making a decision she clearly isn't comfortable with. Under such circumstances, one should do whats best for oneself, ie say no if you dont want to go ahead with the marriage, it is after all the girl who will have to live with consequences and if the marriage breaks down in the future I would have thought that would be worse than dissappointing ones parents by refusing at the outset. However I would personally put forward my refusal as soon as I realised this is not what I wanted. My aunt had a similar problem she got angaged to a man who everyone thought was wonderful, but once engaged he told her she wouldn't be allowed to see her brothers (he argued with one of them), which really upset my aunt as she is the youngest in the family and the only girl. Basically she told her brothers who broke off the engagement and she married my uncle instead... (a much better match even if I do say so myself ;)) Either way one is not allowed to force either the man or the woman to accept a marriage contract they do not wish to enter. I wonder what happened to that sister, hope she is well inshallah. Wassalaam |
| Re: Dating vs arranged marriages Part #2 |
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| georger |
| 12/30/04 at 15:44:30 |
| Marriage and human relations in general is never a clear and easy path. But like I said, arranged marriages do not offer the security people dream of. In today's Toronto Star there was a good article highlighting exactly what I was saying in another thread. To access this URL you may have to register (for free). http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1104362424543&call_pageid=968350130169&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes [quote]Dec. 30, 2004. 07:24 AM RICK EGLINTON/TORONTO STAR It’s been six years since Sherina Banu left her husband. This year, she obtained her licence as a daycare provider and looks after five kids a day in her Scarborough home. Abused brides find shelter, hope Arranged marriages brought Bangladeshi women to T.O. Abuse forced many to find new homes, writes Louise Brown LOUISE BROWN STAFF REPORTER Her copper earrings swing as she throws back her head to laugh; then she remembers to hold still for the woman drawing a henna design on her palm. Two years ago, she used this hand to fend off her husband's blows. She didn't laugh then. Today, this young mother is rebuilding her life, like the other eight women in the room. They are gathered in an apartment of a rundown Scarborough highrise, a gentle clutch of women in flowing silk who came to this country from Bangladesh for arranged marriages but who have left those homes, where they were confined and often beaten, for a fresh start on their own. This afternoon, they have been invited to meet by their mutual friend Gulnar Hossain, the abuse counsellor who has been their bridge from shame to hope. Hossain is one of the only Bengali-speaking abuse counsellors in Toronto. Her position was created by a United Way agency in response to a growing need in the Bengali-speaking community. A pediatrician born in Bangladesh, Hossain helped each of these woman find footing in a new land. Through furtive phone calls placed to her pager at all hours, Hossain has helped them escape while their husbands were at work, bringing only their children, passports and the clothes they could carry. She has helped them find emergency housing, win custody of their children, obtain welfare, learn English, master the TTC and, in two cases, land jobs. "By the time they call me, they've already decided they want out, but they're scared: scared of the police, scared of losing their children, scared of their husbands' families,' said Hossain, a women's crisis counsellor with the Bloor Information and Life Skills Centre. For more than 30 years, the centre has been helping immigrants, initially from Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking countries. But as immigration has soared from South Asian countries such as Bangladesh, Pakistan, India and Sri Lanka, so have calls from women seeking advice on abusive marriages. Immigrants from South Asia now make up the second largest group in Canada, after those from China. "No country is immune to domestic violence, including the South Asian community," says Zul Kassamali, co-chair of the Toronto Police Service's South and West Asian Consultative Committee. "But we don't have enough culturally sensitive supports for South Asian women." Slowly, however, things are changing. Four years ago, the Bloor centre received a United Way grant to hire three part-time counsellors specifically to help abused South Asian women, said executive director Sheila Cram. Along with Bengali-speaking Hossain, there is a counsellor who speaks Hindi, Urdu and Punjabi, and another who speaks Spanish. Between them, the three earn $71,000 a year. "We still don't feel enough people are getting served," says Cram. "We're so busy crisis-counselling, we're not doing enough early intervention so the community knows that being hit is a crime in Canada, and that it's also a crime for somebody to take all the money you earn. Even if it's your spouse." The gathering of Hossain's past clients in a Scarborough apartment is her attempt to help them take another step: to build friendships. She has brought them together for a parenting workshop but added a potluck meal to make it social. As they tend their toddlers and share naan bread and rice, they begin conversations that will take them from strangers to friends. Many say they were hit by their husbands over years. One went to hospital with a bruised voice box from being choked. Another screamed so loudly during beatings that fellow tenants called the police. One spent five days in jail on an assault charge she says was falsely laid by her husband. Another left when her husband announced he wanted to give their first-born child to his sister. Canada offers more help than these women would have received in their homeland, Hossain says. "In Canada, there are choices. There are supports," says Hossain, a married mother of two who has lived in Canada for seven years. "But it makes me very angry how little support the (Bangladeshi) community gives women in bad marriages." The soft-spoken women clamour to agree. "Our grandparents washed our brains to believe the man is always in control!" clucks one single mother, who left her husband after years of beatings. "Here in Canada, we don't have to be tortured," states another. "Back in Bangladesh, it's always the woman's fault, whatever happens," adds another. But they say they are walking proof that's not always true in Canada. Among the growing supports offered to single South Asian mothers are the 25 workshops the Bloor centre offers each year for Bengali-speaking immigrants, many of whom live near Victoria Park and Lawrence Aves. One of the most popular workshops for women — both married and separated — is how to run a licensed daycare centre in your apartment. That's how Sherina Banu learned to support herself. She takes a seat and begins to tell her story, as the others nod. It has been six years since she left the husband with whom she felt isolated and confined. `It makes me very angry how little support the (Bangladeshi) community gives women in bad marriages' Gulnar Hossain, counsellor By the time she met Gulnar Hossain, she was on her own, living on welfare in subsidized housing. Hossain helped her boost her welfare payments by volunteering in the community. She then trained to become a licensed home daycare provider and got off welfare. For the past year, Banu has supported herself caring for five children each day in her Scarborough apartment. Her oldest daughter won a scholarship to the University of Western Ontario and another daughter has just started high school. "At first it was scary being on my own, but I'm very proud now. Even my ex-husband tells our children that `Your mom is a successful woman. Try to follow her example.'" Then it is Nafisa's turn. She dips a small clump of rice with lentil through the rich red gravy of the chicken dish and begins her story. Nafisa only lasted 20 days married to her university professor husband before calling 911 for help. She was doing her master's degree in sociology in Bangladesh when her family arranged a marriage to a chemistry professor 10 years her senior who was working at an Ontario university. She was excited about the move until her husband proved so suspicious of his young bride, he ordered her to come to work with him and sit by his side in the lab while he conducted hours of research. "I was so isolated and lonely. He dumped my purse upside down every day to check for signs that I had other friends. He demanded to know my email password so he could see who was writing me," she says. "But I believe in ambition. I believe in having friends. When the police came, I said, `Please take me anywhere from here.'" They escorted her to a women's shelter, where she heard about a workshop for immigrant women run by Hossain. The moment they met, Hossain knew Nafisa needed something productive to do to build back her confidence, so she arranged for her to volunteer at the Bloor centre. Soon, the outgoing young woman landed a job at a Wendy's fast-food restaurant in Scarborough and was able to get off welfare. She doesn't care that it's a 90-minute bus ride to work from city's her apartment in the west end. "I was named Employee of the Month recently. My manager says he really depends on me," she tells the other women. "I got another job offer, but my boss says he can't do without me, so he raised my pay to $8 an hour so I would stay." Another woman, who asked that her name not be used, was beaten so badly the doctors at one Toronto hospital pleaded with her to lay charges against her husband. She would not. Her husband finally left her without any money but came back once and dangled their toddler over the apartment balcony, causing panic below and calls to police. He fled before he was caught, but a neighbour gave her the number of Hossain, who helped her find legal aid to win custody of their child and helped her get emergency subsidized housing. Yet another woman married a Bangladeshi-born chef in Toronto who refused to let her stay in Bangladesh three more weeks after their marriage so she could write her final social work exam for her degree. Instead, a week after bringing her to Toronto, he put her to work in his brother's clothing factory, where the other workers spoke Hindi, a language she did not understand. "It was hard work. He wanted me to be scared so I would do everything he said," she recalls, choosing her words in English carefully. "He wouldn't let me learn English. He wouldn't take me out in public because he said he was ashamed of my looks. "When our first daughter was born, he made me put her in daycare from 7 a.m. to 6 at night, even though he was at home during the day. Every weekend, he would give our daughter to his sister and her husband to keep at their house because their sons had grown up and they were lonely. "I was so unhappy. I worked all week and I wanted our daughter to be with her mommy on the weekends. But he would not allow it." She put up with beatings, with mental cruelty, with his open flaunting of his girlfriend from Trinidad. But when her second daughter was born and he announced they would give the first to his sister, enough was enough, she said. "He was killing my life. I tried to make him happy; I wanted to stay with my husband, but if I did, I would lose one of my daughters." She called a friend of the family who put her in touch with Hossain. Three days later, she made her escape while her husband was at work. She had $30, which she spent on a cab to the Red Door Shelter. Today, she is learning English and considering her next step. As the gathering breaks up, Gulnar Hossain tells a reporter she wants readers to know about these women, so they can appreciate how far they have come in spirit — as well as distance — to become Canadians.[/quote] |
| Re: Dating vs arranged marriages Part #2 |
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| jannah |
| 12/30/04 at 17:03:46 |
| Georger it doesn't make sense to blame arranged marriages for domestic abuse. Look at the statistics for domestic abuse for Americans. In this country the main mode of marriage is NOT arranged...(look at the statistics below) and still we have a HUGE amoung of domestic abuse. I would even site the very sad statistics on date rape as something prevented by us not going that route. So when it comes down to it, it is NOT the mode of marriage or even culture or religion that we must blame, because abuse of women happens across all cultures and religions. ------------------- Estimates range from 960,000 incidents of violence against a current or former spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend per year1 to three million women who are physically abused by their husband or boyfriend per year.2 Nearly one-third of American women (31 percent) report being physically or sexually abused by a husband or boyfriend at some point in their lives, according to a 1998 Commonwealth Fund survey.4 Nearly 25 percent of American women report being raped and/or physically assaulted by a current or former spouse, cohabiting partner, or date at some time in their lifetime, according to the National Violence Against Women Survey, conducted from November 1995 to May 1996.5 Thirty percent of Americans say they know a woman who has been physically abused by her husband or boyfriend in the past year.6 In the year 2001, more than half a million American women (588,490 women) were victims of nonfatal violence committed by an intimate partner.7 Approximately one in five female high school students reports being physically and/or sexually abused by a dating partner.24 Eight percent of high school age girls said “yes” when asked if “a boyfriend or date has ever forced sex against your will.”25 Forty percent of girls age 14 to 17 report knowing someone their age who has been hit or beaten by a boyfriend.26 During the 1996-1997 school year, there were an estimated 4,000 incidents of rape or other types of sexual assault in public schools across the country.27 http://endabuse.org/resources/facts/ |
| 12/30/04 at 17:05:24 |
| jannah |
| Re: Dating vs arranged marriages Part #2 |
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| georger |
| 12/30/04 at 18:43:52 |
| [quote author=jannah link=board=madrasa;num=1104188186;start=0#9 date=12/30/04 at 17:03:46]Georger it doesn't make sense to blame arranged marriages for domestic abuse. Look at the statistics for domestic abuse for Americans. In this country the main mode of marriage is NOT arranged...(look at the statistics below) and still we have a HUGE amoung of domestic abuse. I would even site the very sad statistics on date rape as something prevented by us not going that route. So when it comes down to it, it is NOT the mode of marriage or even culture or religion that we must blame, because abuse of women happens across all cultures and religions.[/quote] I agree with you! I posted this to also demonstrate that abuse and tyranny happens across cultures and religions whether marriages are arranged or not. |
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