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Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
Ember
03/05/05 at 13:58:10
I thought this was NOT allowed since we would be distracting the men behind by going to ruku'u and sujuud in front of them and by drawing attension to ourselves???????????????? Woman-Led Friday Communal Prayer @ NYC Join us in affirming the right of women to be spiritual leaders, including imams, or prayer leaders. In a historic Friday prayer on March 18, 2005, in New York City, women will go from the back of the mosque to the front of the mosque. 1-3 pm with Prayer and Reception Dr. Amina Wadud, professor of Islamic studies at Virginia Commonwealth University, will be the first woman to lead a public, mixed-gender Friday prayer. She will also deliver the Friday sermon. Dr. Wadud, the author of the groundbreaking book Qur'an and Woman: Rereading the Sacred Text from a Woman's Perspective, is an esteemed scholar of Islam who affirms the right of Muslim women to be prayer leaders. It is a generally held view in the Muslim world and in the American Muslim community that women cannot lead mixed-gender prayers. This custom is pervasive and goes unchallenged. Research from the Qur’an and the customs of Prophet Muhammad demonstrate that there is no prohibition precluding women from leading mixed-gender prayer and, further, that Prophet Muhammad approved the practice of women leading mixed-gender prayer. Over the centuries, Muslim women have lost their place as intellectual and spiritual leaders. On March 18, Muslim women will reclaim their right to be spiritual equals and leaders. Women will move from the space tradition has relegated them in the back of the mosque and pray in the front rows. Our effort will be part of a broader campaign to create communities in the Muslim world that rise to the highest principles of Islam's teachings on tolerance, justice, equity, and compassion. In the 7th century, the Prophet Muhammad built a model community in the city of Medina, earning it a place in history as "the City of Illumination" because of its progressive values. In the 21st century, we are committed to creating modern day "Cities of Light" in the Muslim world that value inclusion and women's rights.
03/05/05 at 14:57:35
jannah

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
jannah
03/05/05 at 15:09:03
wlm, Actually the description is rather misleading...  she is going to be leading the prayer, but she is not leading the salah. If you read the original flyers she is going to give a khutbah and then everyone will pray individually. Again people are getting all up in arms about the connotation of this without actually examining it.  There's nothing wrong with a woman giving khutbahs in fact they do it all the time in all kinds of environment and theres nothing wrong with ppl praying of course..  Whether it counts as a "legal jumah" is a whole other issue...(and it would be odd if men and women were standing next to each other in the lines or women right in front of men bending over etc but again thats a whole other thing) Anyhow, Women should be imams and spiritual leaders and prayer leaders! There are some Muslim countries where this is still alive like in syria. I think that fighting for this is worth it. How they are going about it is probably more controversial than change making. Then again what other way is there to get people's attention?

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
Abu_Hamza
03/05/05 at 18:17:36
I wonder how much of this is a result of true, sincere motivation to help the cause of oppressed and abused Muslim women around the world, and how much of this is actually a way of satiating the inner appetite for leadership and authority. May Allah help us all.
03/05/05 at 18:18:20
Abu_Hamza

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
bhaloo
03/05/05 at 18:51:59
[slm] People should rightfully be in an uproar and demand that this woman not speak about Islam publically anywhere. I was hoping this nonsense would not be posted here in the public.  I did discuss this article here a few days earlier with some other people on the board. Anyways, from the article that I had access to it said this: Jumuah Agenda 1:00 pm -- 1st Call to Prayer, Welcome, Zikr, Worship   -- 2nd Call to Prayer -- Jumuah Sermon (Dr. Wadud) -- Jumuah Prayer (Dr. Wadud) -- Solitary Prayer/Meditation -- Fellowship with reception       ;=============================================== This is completely forbidden in Islam to have a woman lead the jumah prayer of mixed non-maharam men.   Amina Wadud is also no Islamic scholar.  In an earlier article where she gave a speech in Toronto she is quoted as saying: "Usually I wear the hijab, and when I am wearing it, most Muslims do not consider me African–American; I pass off as a South Asian," she said. "But when they see me without a scarf, they can see my African locks and they know I am Black and suddenly their attitude changes. The fact is I am a nigger and you will just have to put up with my blackness." In the same article it also mentions: Breaking the ultimate taboo in the Muslim narrative, she stated that despite the fact the Qur’an explicitly asks for cutting off the hands of thieves, she did not agree with the Qur’an.  She said she understood that this was a very difficult subject to talk about, but she would be dishonest to herself if she did not express her views. She maintained that as a Muslim with Allah close to her heart, in all honesty she could not continue with the hypocrisy of lying about how she felt about some verses of the Qur’an. The basis of her talk was "How to be God's agent (khalifa) on Earth; to be a moral agent of the Creator." In this context, she presented four ways of looking at Qu'ranic verses which Muslims find difficulty dealing with. She identified the four methods as: (1) The literal readings of the text, (2) The legalistic arguments that constrain how verses are applied, (3) Reinterpretation from alternative perspectives, and (4) Saying "No to the Qur'an" when one disagrees with it. Pursuing the last point, she declared that she could not intellectually or spiritually accept some things in the Qur'an, for example some of the hudud punishments like the cutting of hands or the permission to beat one's wife. She made it clear that she was denying neither the religion nor the revelation. "It is the Qur'an," she said, "that gives me the means to say no to the Qur'an." --SNIP-- And in the same article: The straw that broke the camel's back came when Wadud, answering a question, criticized Canada's proposed Shariah laws and expressed support for same-sex marriage.
03/05/05 at 18:54:34
bhaloo

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
timbuktu
03/06/05 at 02:52:13
[slm][quote author=jannah link=board=ummah;num=1110052745;start=0#1 date=03/05/05 at 15:09:03]Women should be imams and spiritual leaders and prayer leaders! There are some Muslim countries where this is still alive like in syria. I think that fighting for this is worth it. How they are going about it is probably more controversial than change making. Then again what other way is there to get people's attention?[/quote] really, jannah. Women should be imams! what are the grounds for that innovation? you say it is alive in Syria. Can you throw some light. When and from where was this introduced in Syria? Is it a peculiarity of some obscure group? Women are oppressed in many ways, and we must all join hands to restore their rights, but what you have said needs clarification. I am not at all learned, particularly in the deen, and maybe I have missed something that allows this. So, do explain please.

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
jannah
03/06/05 at 03:06:29
[wlm] see that's what i'm talkin about!! ppl jump all over words and anything that goes against their status-quo cultural interpretations without even examining it. what if i told you a renowned male shaikh said women could be imams!!! (by the way he has) of course women can be imams!! what is an imam to you? someone who leads the community in their guidance? their knowledge? in prayer? women can do all these things and have done. who is aisha to you? who were the mothers of the believers? the renowned sahabiyat? do their lives, their teaching, their guidance mean nothing?  they taught men and women, they gave lectures and khutbahs, they led prayers among themselves and even on rare occasions with both men and women under certain conditions. seriously understanding women's rights seems to be skin deep among most muslims.. skin deep and that's it... the minute you point something out ur sent back to the basement... it's enough to make me wanna join amina wudud's jumah!!! jeez

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
timbuktu
03/06/05 at 04:43:44
[slm] jannah, there is really no cause to be angry. I do want to understand. In the broader sense of course women can and have been imams, but in the limited sense of leading Salah for a mixed congregation, I am still not aware of such an eventuality except that of an Afghan girl in Paris whose revert Muslim husband had to learn the Salah from her through her leading in prayer. However, as soon as he had learnt enough, she told him to lead the Salah. Did the Ummul Mumineen Aisha (ra) or any other female lead males in Salah?
03/06/05 at 04:47:18
timbuktu

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
bhaloo
03/06/05 at 10:09:13
[slm] When someone says they do not agree with the Quran, how can we even take anything they say as serious?  One of the beliefs of a Muslim is that we accept the Quran!   [quote author=timbuktu link=board=ummah;num=1110052745;start=0#6 date=03/06/05 at 04:43:44]Did the Ummul Mumineen Aisha (ra) or any other female lead males in Salah?[/quote] I'm not aware of any tradition mentioning Aisha (ra) leading men.  There is the case of Umm Waraqah leading some people in her household.  And a MINORITY view agrees with this. 577) Umm Waraqah, the daughter of Nawfal reported, "When the Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) proceeded for Badr I said to him, 'Messenger of Allaah allow me to accompany you in the battle. I shall act as a nurse for your patients and maybe Allaah will bestow martyrdom upon me.' He replied, 'stay at your home and Allaah the Exalted will bestow martyrdom upon you.' [The narrator said: hence she was called a martyr.] She read the Qur'aan and sought permission from the Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) to have a mu'adhdhin in her house. He therefore permitted her to do so. She announced that her slave and slave girl would be free after her death so one night they strangled her with a sheet of cloth until she died and ran away. The next day Umar announced that anyone who has knowledge of them or has seen them should bring them to him. (After they were caught) Umar ordered that they be crucified and this was the first crucifixion at Madeenah." 578') From Umm Waraqah, the daughter of Abdullaah bin al-Haarith, "the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) used to visit her at her house. He appointed a mu'adhdhin to call adhaan for her and he commanded her to lead the inmates of her house in prayer." Abdurrahmaan said, "I saw that her mu'adhdhin was an old man." [Abu Daawood (Eng. Trans. #591&592)] This hadeeth establishes that the imaamate of women and their praying in congregation is correct and affirmed by means of the order of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam). Aa`ishah (RA) and Umm Salamah (RA) led the women in prayer for the obligatory prayers and the prayer of Taraaweeh. Al-Haafidh said in ‘Talkhees al-Habeer’, "The hadeeth of Aa`ishah that the led the women in prayer by standing in the middle (of their first row) was reported by Abdurrazaaq and via his route, ad-Daaruqutnee and al-Bayhaqee from the hadeeth of Abu Haazim from Raa'ita al-Hanafiyyah from Aa'ishah that 'she led them in an obligatory prayer standing amongst them.' Ibn Abee Shaybah and al-Haakim report via the route of ibn Abee Laylah from Ataa from Aa`ishah 'that she used lead the women in prayer and stand in the middle of their (first row).' The hadeeth of Umm Salamah that she led the women in prayer and stood in the middle of them was reported by ash-Shaafi`ee, ibn Abee Shaybah and Abdurrazzaaq all from ibn Uyaynah from Ammaar ad-Dahnee from a woman of his people who was called Hajeerah from Umm Salamah 'that she led them in prayer and stood in the middle (of the first row).' The wording of Abdurrazzaaq has, 'Umm Salamah led us in the Asr prayer and stood in the middle of us.'" Al-Haafidh also said in ‘ad-Diraayah’, "Muhammad bin al-Hasan reports from Ibraaheem an-Nakha`ee from Aa`ishah 'that she used to lead the women in prayer during the month of Ramadaan and stood in the middle (of their first row).'" I say: it is clear from these ahaadeeth that when a woman leads other women then she stands in the middle (of their first row) amongst them and not in front of them (as a man does). (as-Sana`aanee) said in ‘as-Subul as-Salaam’, "The hadeeth lends proof for the correctness of a woman leading the people of her household, even if their be a man amongst them - and in this case he was her mu`adhdhin and an old man. The literal sense of the hadeeth shows that she used to lead him, her servant and her slave-girl. Abu Thawr, al-Muzanee and at-Tabaree took to the opinion that this was correct while the majority were of the opposite opinion." …Abdurrazzaaq reports in his Musannaf from Ikrimah from ibn Abbaas that he said, "when a woman leads women in prayer then she should stand in the middle of them."
03/06/05 at 10:09:48
bhaloo

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
Mona
03/06/05 at 10:32:36
[slm] I have seen these discussions before.  Actually, we had an incident in Toronto, where allegedly a woman led eid prayers, just this past eidul adha. Of course it wasn't in a mainstream masjid or jama'a. However, in the prophetic tradition and that of the following generation , we know that women did not take on the position of leading prayers of a mixed congregation, even though we know that scholarly pursuits were highly encouraged, and even though  women's scholarship was highly flourishing  in those eras.   The perceived "exclusion" of women from the role of imamah should not be viewed as a discrimenetory or an oppressive measure.  nor should this "exclusion" of women be understood to be rooted in the Islam's view of women as limited in knowledge and judgement.  Islam and muslim scholars have never underestimated the contribution of women scholars.  So, insha'Allah, we would all benefit from being factual and objective about this topic.    It is just that women leading a juma'a prayer (or even giving the khutbah) does not agree with the way an islamic community should/does run. I have to expand on this later. Hopefully the thread is not locked when I come back.     However, we should realize the context of all of this.  A special permission was given to umm waraqah by the prophet [saw] to lead regular prayers in her household.   Just as background, umm waraqah was a knowledgeable elderly lady who had a slave girl and a slave boy in her household.  She did not have a husband or a son.  She took permission from the prophet [saw] to lead prayers of her household and he  [saw] agreed but appointed a mua'dhen (i.e. a person who calls the prayers).   Based on this,  some sunni scholars (tabari, muzni, thahiri) argued that women can lead prayers in their households if they are most knowledgeable in reciting the Qur'an and given that they don't stand in the front.  Their view  on the premissibility of women taking on the role of an imam(ah) does not mean that they advocate/permit women to lead prayers outside of the situation of umm waraqah.  So, in no way their ijtihad could be used to justify having a woman leading a juma'a prayer or giving khutbah.   The community of scholars however, i.e. the consensus or ijmaa', saw that umm-waraqah's situation was special and the permission given to her to lead prayers of her household should not be extrapolated to other women.  In  other words, the majority of the scholars are of the view that umm waraqah was a special case not a general one. Thus, according to ijma'a, women imamah should not be  seen as a free for all. The prophet  [saw] said in a hadeeth that "my ummah does not have a consensus on a wrong".  So insha'Allah, we are required to adhere to the ijmaa' and not go into matters that don't particularly advance anything except argumentation and might lead to veiled attempts to re-interpret Islam according to our whims.   wa Allahu a'lam. take care wassalam
03/06/05 at 10:39:45
Mona

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
se7en
03/06/05 at 15:13:49
as salaamu alaykum, this is going from one extreme (disenfranchising women from contributing and learning in our communities) to another (total disregard for the shari'ah). we need to find a balance.

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
jannah
03/06/05 at 15:17:37
slm, I think our terminology should be clarified... imam can mean person who leads the prayers (mixed or not mixed), leader of the community, spiritual leader... basically a whole host of stuff... So are there not women who lead prayers? (unless ur hanafi), are there not women who are leaders in their communities, are there not spiritual leaders who are women? And why should they not be called Imamahs? Why should they not be called Shaikhas?? Amina Wudud is not claiming to lead prayers in front of her audience.  The worst thing she's done with this event (excluding bhaloo's remarks) is that she is giving two khutbahs in front of men and women on a friday and calling it Jumu'ah. And in the literal sense it is a jumu'ah, whether it fulfills the conditions of jum'uah is a whole other thing... Just so y'all know I am not a fan of hers. I have read her book a while ago and have serious questions about her Islamic scholarship, no doubt she's said some wack things and I don't consider her a scholar or an imamah, and don't agree with her methods. I'm just saying when someone does something we shouldn't be reactionary and just react back to something emotionally. We should examine it and see what is right and wrong about it and actually have a discourse about the real issues involved ie. lack of space and access for women in mosques, lack of education, lack of rights for women, etc etc.
03/06/05 at 17:14:57
jannah

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
jannah
03/07/05 at 12:14:39
slm, Wows i got imams all emailin me and ppl calling me from tx and everythin;) so let me explain more in detail I am not supporting this event nor does anyone support women leading Islamic Jumah prayers or physically leading men in Salah. There is a reason and wisdom why women do not have to lead the Jumah prayer and why they should not physically lead the Salah.  This is an important Fiqhi matter that does not have a difference of opinion. [Women of course may give khutbahs (ie in the linguistic term - speeches in front of mixed audiences). They may lead prayers among women and perhaps, some may even say, in their household if they are the most learned. There are differences of opinion on these and these are things discussed by scholars.] Moving on.... I do think that this whole thing is a publicity stunt to gain support for certain people's work and to publicize the agenda of certain "progressives". I feel that this is a version of western feminist agenda infiltrating muslims, which only propogates because it is in reaction to years of problems. If muslims were giving muslim women their rights, creating space for them in their mosques and islamic institutions, encouraging them in their islamic education and full participation, people like these would not have a voice and events like this would be a footnote instead of creating so much controversy in our communities. I can only hope that the positive that comes of this is that Muslim leaders in the US start addressing the lack of space and rights given to women in mosques and islamic institutions. The negative I am seeing is that there is only an emotional reaction when people hear about this. They condemn it outright without addressing or even mentioning the original, underlying, endemic problems. There is no discourse on the subject at all, just a reaction that 'these ppl are wack, kaffirs etc'.  Thus as we keep failing to address our problems, the "progressives" quickly take up the slack and address them using their own wrong interpretations and opinions without basis to our deen! They have a huge following because there are Muslims out there who don't know any better and are sick of the wrong things that go on. To be honest, this movement was to be expected. For years muslim women have been shut out, so they end up either 1. being disenfranchised from muslims and stop going to the mosques and being into the deen  or 2. they end up making up their own wrong interpretations following in the footsteps of western women thinking it is the same type of fight. There just seems to be a vacuum between the two, a lack of education and priority on the problems and so we'll always have reactionary extremes on all sides.

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
tree
03/09/05 at 19:08:37
[quote author=jannah link=board=ummah;num=1110052745;start=10#11 date=03/07/05 at 12:14:39] If muslims were giving muslim women their rights, creating space for them in their mosques and islamic institutions, encouraging them in their islamic education and full participation, people like these would not have a voice and events like this would be a footnote instead of creating so much controversy in our communities. [/quote] This is a crucial point and one the Muslim community needs to address seriously.   My worry is that some people will use this event as an excuse to say that women shouldn't be let out and educated otherwise they'll end up like Wadud!   So many events go on in mosques around the country, but most of them don't include women or expect women to attend.  Many educational activities are also organised by mosques, but after learning to read the Qur'an, how many young girls are allowed to progress with their Islamic education?  I don't know how it is the States, but it's a problem in the UK.  It's then left up to community organisations, usually run by women for women, to try to fil this gap, but its not easy when they usually have little support from their families to progress to the highest level especially as there's hardly ever any provisions for childcare, and also many of the women themselves aren't educated in Islam to such a high level.  rarely do men get involved in the teaching of women...is it really so hard when a course is being run to include women, or at least run the same course for women-only? anyway, i could rant and rave about this subject all night...but i'll spare you  ;D  in the meantime i need a  [] to relax :-)

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
UmmWafi
03/17/05 at 08:01:00
[slm] One of my Professors is leaving my school to go back to the States and I travelled to Malaysia to visit him before he left.  We talked for 2 hours on almost every topic and naturally this was one of the topics we discussed (though very briefly cos we felt she didnt merit long discussions). This Jum'ah prayer aside, what is a more worrying trend is Muslims taking up and taking on issues which even non-Muslims wisely avoid like same sex marriage etc all in the name of promoting "rights" in Islam. The question is, why do Muslims feel the need to justify and keep justifying and defending what is Islam to them ? There is a huge world of difference between being proactive and reactive. I am sorry to say that Dr Wadud's gimmick smacks of reactiveness. Reading her biography, I am surprised at some of her conclusions in view of the fact that she is not an expert on : a) Gender studies and sociology b) 'ulumul qur'aan and tafseer However, that said, everyone is of course entitled to his or her own opinions. What I find offensive is when that person plaster the whole Muslim community with that opinion and present it as a communal consensus.  Do NOT speak for me please. This reminds me of a singing talent competition held here last year when a hijabi entered the competition. When interviewed, she said that she joined the singing competition because she wanted to show everyone that hijabis can do anything other people do. Me and my friend look at each other and simultaneously said "Why cant she do that by being a nuclear scientist ?". As Abu Hamza rightly say, sometimes we have to really question our niyyah because sometimes cerebrally we are very different from our nafs. And truly, what our mind justifies cannot hide from Allah what our nafs is whispering. Allahu 'alim Wassalam

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
WhatDFish
03/17/05 at 12:53:26
The Ruling on a Woman Leading a Public Congregational Prayer Jamaal al-Deen Zarabozo The purpose of this short article is, as is clear from the title, a determination of the ruling on a woman leading a public congregational prayer. The intent here is to be as brief as possible. The details of the discussion below—in particular the details of the analysis of the hadith—will be left to be published in another place or format. The opinions of the scholars of the past are well-known on this issue. The vast majority of the scholars say that it is not proper or acceptable for a woman to lead a man in the prayer. The only exceptions to the majority known to this scholar are Abu Thaur and al-Muzani. Al-Tabari allows women to be Imams only for the taraweeh prayer and only if no men present had memorized the Quran. More recently, others have made the claim that there is no harm in women leading men in prayers. Some have even claimed that it is permissible for a woman to lead men and women in the Friday Prayers or other obligatory congregational prayers in the mosque. Indeed, this has actually been done in practice. It is this particular issue that shall be dealt with here. Two hadith need to be discussed here, one because it is an explicit statement regarding this question and another because it is the hadith that is often quoted to substantiate the claim that women can lead such prayers. There is a hadith recorded by ibn Maajah which is very explicit on this particular question. However, there is no question that this hadith is weak and cannot be used as evidence in Islamic Law. The hadith is presented here in order for it to be known that it is weak and unacceptable as evidence on this question. The hadith as found in ibn Maajah states: ÃóáÇ áÇ ÊóÄõãøóäøó ÇãúÑóÃóÉñ ÑóÌõáÇð æóáÇ íóÄõãøó ÃóÚúÑóÇÈöíøñ ãõåóÇÌöÑðÇ æóáÇ íóÄõãøó ÝóÇÌöÑñ ãõÄúãöäðÇ “Truly, a woman should not lead a man in prayer, nor a Bedouin an Emigrant, nor an evildoer a believer…” The second hadith is the one most quoted by some contemporary authors on this point. It is often referred to as “the hadith of Umm Waraqah.” This hadith is recorded by Ahmad, al-Haakim in his Mustadrak, ibn al-Jaarood, ibn Khuzaimah, al-Baihaqi in al-Kubra and al-Sughra, Abu Dawood, al-Tabaraani and al-Daaraqutni. Since Sunan Abi Dawood is available in English, his recording of the hadith will be presented here as well as the translation as found in Ahmad Hasan’s translation of Sunan Abu Dawood. Abu Dawood records: ÍóÏøóËóäóÇ ÚõËúãóÇäõ Èúäõ ÃóÈöí ÔóíúÈóÉó ÍóÏøóËóäóÇ æóßöíÚõ Èúäõ ÇáúÌóÑøóÇÍö ÍóÏøóËóäóÇ ÇáúæóáöíÏõ Èúäõ ÚóÈúÏö Çááøóåö Èúäö ÌõãóíúÚò ÞóÇáó ÍóÏøóËóÊúäöí ÌóÏøóÊöí æóÚóÈúÏõ ÇáÑøóÍúãóäö Èúäõ ÎóáøóÇÏò ÇáúÃóäúÕóÇÑöíøõ Úóäú Ãõãøö æóÑóÞóÉó ÈöäúÊö ÚóÈúÏö Çááøóåö Èúäö äóæúÝóáò ÇáúÃóäúÕóÇÑöíøóÉö Ãóäøó ÇáäøóÈöíøó Õóáøóì Çááøóåõ Úóáóíúåö æóÓóáøóãó áóãøóÇ ÛóÒóÇ ÈóÏúÑðÇ ÞóÇáóÊú ÞõáúÊõ áóåõ íóÇ ÑóÓõæáó Çááøóåö ÇÆúÐóäú áöí Ýöí ÇáúÛóÒúæö ãóÚóßó ÃõãóÑøöÖõ ãóÑúÖóÇßõãú áóÚóáøó Çááøóåó Ãóäú íóÑúÒõÞóäöí ÔóåóÇÏóÉð ÞóÇáó ÞóÑøöí Ýöí ÈóíúÊößö ÝóÅöäøó Çááøóåó ÊóÚóÇáóì íóÑúÒõÞõßö ÇáÔøóåóÇÏóÉó ÞóÇáó ÝóßóÇäóÊú ÊõÓóãøóì ÇáÔøóåöíÏóÉõ ÞóÇáó æóßóÇäóÊú ÞóÏú ÞóÑóÃóÊú ÇáúÞõÑúÂäó ÝóÇÓúÊóÃúÐóäóÊú ÇáäøóÈöíøó Õóáøóì Çááøóåõ Úóáóíúåö æóÓóáøóãó Ãóäú ÊóÊøóÎöÐó Ýöí ÏóÇÑöåóÇ ãõÄóÐøöäðÇ ÝóÃóÐöäó áóåóÇ ÞóÇáó æóßóÇäóÊú ÞóÏú ÏóÈøóÑóÊú ÛõáóÇãðÇ áóåóÇ æóÌóÇÑöíóÉð ÝóÞóÇãóÇ ÅöáóíúåóÇ ÈöÇááøóíúáö ÝóÛóãøóÇåóÇ ÈöÞóØöíÝóÉò áóåóÇ ÍóÊøóì ãóÇÊóÊú æóÐóåóÈóÇ ÝóÃóÕúÈóÍó ÚõãóÑõ ÝóÞóÇãó Ýöí ÇáäøóÇÓö ÝóÞóÇáó ãóäú ßóÇäó ÚöäúÏóåõ ãöäú åóÐóíúäö Úöáúãñ Ãóæú ãóäú ÑóÂåõãóÇ ÝóáúíóÌöÆú ÈöåöãóÇ ÝóÃóãóÑó ÈöåöãóÇ ÝóÕõáöÈóÇ ÝóßóÇäóÇ Ãóæøóáó ãóÕúáõæÈò ÈöÇáúãóÏöíäóÉö ÍóÏøóËóäóÇ ÇáúÍóÓóäõ Èúäõ ÍóãøóÇÏò ÇáúÍóÖúÑóãöíøõ ÍóÏøóËóäóÇ ãõÍóãøóÏõ Èúäõ ÝõÖóíúáò Úóäú ÇáúæóáöíÏö Èúäö ÌõãóíúÚò Úóäú ÚóÈúÏö ÇáÑøóÍúãóäö Èúäö ÎóáøóÇÏò Úóäú Ãõãøö æóÑóÞóÉó ÈöäúÊö ÚóÈúÏö Çááøóåö Èúäö ÇáúÍóÇÑöËö ÈöåóÐóÇ ÇáúÍóÏöíËö æóÇáúÃóæøóáõ ÃóÊóãøõ ÞóÇáó æóßóÇäó ÑóÓõæáõ Çááøóåö Õóáøóì Çááøóåõ Úóáóíúåö æóÓóáøóãó íóÒõæÑõåóÇ Ýöí ÈóíúÊöåóÇ æóÌóÚóáó áóåóÇ ãõÄóÐøöäðÇ íõÄóÐøöäõ áóåóÇ æóÃóãóÑóåóÇ Ãóäú ÊóÄõãøó Ãóåúáó ÏóÇÑöåóÇ ÞóÇáó ÚóÈúÏõ ÇáÑøóÍúãóäö ÝóÃóäóÇ ÑóÃóíúÊõ ãõÄóÐøöäóåóÇ ÔóíúÎðÇ ßóÈöíÑðÇ Ahmad Hasan’s translation (vol. 1, pp. 155-156) is as follows: (591) Umm Waraqah daughter of Nawfal reported: When the Prophet (may peace be upon him) proceeded for the Battle of Badr, I said to him: Apostle of Allah allow me to accompany you in the battle. I shall act as a nurse for your patients. It is possible that Allah might bestow martyrdom on me. He said: Stay at your home. Allah, the Almighty, will bestow martyrdom upon you. The narrator said: Hence she called martyr. She read the Quran. She sought permission from the Prophet (may peace be upon him) to have a mu`adhdhin in her house. He, therefore, permitted her (to do so). She announced that her slave and slave-girl would be free after her death. One night they went to her and strangled her with a sheet of cloth until she died, and they ran away. Next day ‘Umar announced among the people: Anyone who has knowledge about them, or has seen them, should bring them (to him). ‘Umar (after their arrest) ordered (to crucify them) and they were crucified. This was the first crucifixion at Medina. (592) This tradition has also been narrated through a different chain of transmitters by Umm Waraqah daughter of Abd Allah ibn al-Harith. The first version is complete. This version goes: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to visit her at her house. He appointed a mu`adhdhin to call the adhan for her; and he commanded her to lead the inmates of her house of in prayer. ‘Abd al-Rahman said: I saw her mu`adhdhin who was an old man. After recording this hadith, the great scholar of hadith ibn Khuzaimah said that it is a “strange sunnah” and he does not know of any other hadith bearing this meaning. Al-Daraqutni is quoted as having made a similar statement. Furthermore, there is no question that the authenticity of this hadith may be questioned. All of the people who recorded it recorded it through al-Waleed ibn Jumai’ from Abdul-Rahmaan ibn Khallaad, and there is some doubt concerning both of these narrators. In particular, al-Waleed has to be questioned if he reports something that is not supported by anyone else. Hence, in ibn Hibbaan’s al-Majrooheen (vol. 3, pp. 78-79), it states about him, ÇáæáíÏ Èä ÌãíÚ ÔíÎ ãä Ãåá ÇáßæÝÉ íÑæí Úä ÚÈÏ ÇáÑÍãä Èä ÎáÇÏ æÇáßæÝííä Ñæì Úäå ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÏÇæÏ ÇáÎÑÈí æÃåá ÇáÚÑÇÞ ßÇä ããä íäÝÑÏ Úä ÇáÃËÈÇÊ ÈãÇ áÇ íÔÈå ÍÏíË ÇáËÞÇÊ ÝáãÇ ÝÍÔ Ðáß ãäå ÈØá ÇáÇÍÊÌÇÌ Èå ÃÎÈÑäÇ ÇáåãÏÇäí ÞÇá ÍÏËäÇ ÚãÑæ Èä Úáí ÞÇá ßÇä íÍíì Èä ÓÚíÏ áÇ íÍÏË Úä ÇáæáíÏ Èä ÌãíÚ. Al-Waleed ibn Jumair, a sheikh from the people of Kufah. He narrated from Abdul-Rahmaan ibn Khallaad and people of Kufah. Abdullah ibn Dawood al-Kharabi and the people of Iraq narrated from him. He was from among those people who would solitarily narrate from trustworthy people hadith that would not resemble the hadith of trustworthy narrators. Since this was excessive on his part, one cannot use him as a relied upon source. Al-Hamadaani narrated to us that Amr ibn Ali said to him, “Yahya ibn Saeed would not narrate from al-Waleed ibn Jumai’.” [It must be noted that some people accept al-Waleed because ibn Hibbaan mentioned him in his other work, al-Thiqaat (Trustworthy Narrators), but this comment by ibn Hibbaan himself makes it clear that he is not acceptable under all circumstances.] In Taqreeb al-Tahdheeb, ibn Hajar describes Abdul-Rahmaan as being ãÌåæá ÇáÍÇá, meaning his condition as a narrator of hadith is not established. Hadith of someone of this nature would not be acceptable unless it is supported via another source. (It should though be noted that other scholars had a higher opinion of Abdul-Rahmaan. Although in the recently edited version of Taqreeb, edited by Basheer Maroof and Shuaib al-Arnaaoot, they argue that Abdul-Rahmaan is ãÌåæá ÇáÚíä, meaning he is truly identified as a narrator since only one person is known to have narrated from him. This is a state lower than that described by ibn Hajar.) Without going into any further details of the chains, this author can state that he is not completely convinced as to the authenticity of this hadith. Indeed, it seems that the hadith is weak. However, for the sake of argument it will be assumed that the hadith is hasan. In fact, the hadith scholar Muhammad Naasir al-Deen al-Albaani has graded it hasan in his discussion of the hadith of Sunan Abi Dawood. This being the only pertinent acceptable hadith, a number of important points can be derived from this hadith—many of which go against the way that this hadith is being applied by a limited number of people today. Most importantly, this hadith should certainly not be used by feminists as some kind of sign that the Muslim jurists have gotten the true picture of women in Islam wrong for so many centuries. Note what exactly occurred in this hadith: Umm Waraqah asked permission of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) to take part in the Battle of Badr. She did not ask permission to take part in the fighting. She only stated to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that she would be able to tend to the ill and wounded. However, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) refused her request. Beyond that, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) ordered her to remain in her house, using the imperative form of the verb. (This is similar to the command made in al-Ahzaab 33, which people argue is only meant for the Prophet’s wives but this hadith of Umm Waraqah could be used to further show that it was for Muslim women in general.) Again, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) ordered her to remain in her house and told her to the lead the inhabitants of her house in prayer. The following question must then be asked: How could this hadith possibly be used as evidence that a woman is allowed to lead the congregational prayer in a mosque? If she were to do that, she would be violating the command that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) gave to Umm Waraqah of remaining in her house and, furthermore, it would be deriving something from this hadith that is simply not in the hadith: the permissibility of women leading the prayers outside of their homes in the mosques (a practice, it should be noted, that was never done by any of the pious women of the early generations, including, to the best of what is recorded, Umm Waraqah herself). Actually, there is nothing explicit in this hadith that Umm Waraqah led males in prayer. The basic ruling concerning males is that they are to pray in the mosque. This was a well-established practice during the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and afterwards during the time of the Companions. (There is no need to go into the numerous proofs for that view.) Hence, who would Umm Waraqah be leading in the obligatory prayers? It should have only been females and those males who were too young to be required to go to the mosques. Even her caller to prayer, the old man referred to by the non-Companion Abdul-Rahmaan, may have made the call to prayer for her and then gone to the mosque to prayer. That is not stated in the hadith but it is an acceptable assumption given the command for males to pray in the mosques and how that command was implemented during the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). It should also be noted that this incident took place during the time of Badr, before the revelations of soorah al-Noor and soorah al-Ahzaab, which put greater restrictions on the dress and movement of the believing women. Hence, this practice may have existed at one time but was later no longer practiced, as one can find no other evidence for this practice in any other report. In sum, the absolute most that can be derived from the hadith of Umm Waraqah, if one concludes that it is an acceptable hadith, is that a woman can lead the male members of her household within the confines of her home if she is most qualified to the Imam. At the same time, on the other end of the extreme, the hadith also lends itself to the fact that Muslim women are requested to remain at home and, in general—although there are exceptions to this—they are not even expected to go out for jihad and try to become martyrs. There is nothing, though, in this hadith that would lend itself to the conclusion that it is permissible for women to lead men in prayer in congregational mosques or in the Friday Prayer. Such a conclusion would simply be reading more into the hadith than what the hadith states. Indeed, the hadith is not even explicit that Umm Waraqah would lead adult males of her household in prayer—which must be considered doubtful since such males of that time were known to perform the obligatory prayers in the mosque. And Allah alone knows best.
03/17/05 at 12:56:28
WhatDFish

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
lala
03/18/05 at 09:54:53
[slm] This has made it to the New York times..goodness http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/18/nyregion/18muslim.html?hp Muslim Group Is Urging Women to Lead Prayers By ANDREA ELLIOTT Published: March 18, 2005 As they do every Friday, Muslims will answer the call to prayer at mosques around the city today. But in a bold move, some plan to break with convention and attend a service led by a woman at a conference hall on the Upper West Side - an act that has stirred a modest but fierce debate about the role of women in Islam. The event is the work of a small but growing group of activists, journalists and scholars who consider themselves among the pioneers of a "progressive Muslim" movement in the United States. They hope to encourage discussion about the centuries-old tradition that separates men from women during congregational prayer, and reserves the role of prayer leader, or imam, for men. Critics of the event, which will be led by an Islamic studies professor at Synod House of the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, say it does not reflect the popular, more devout views of American Muslims. They worry that the controversy will cast aspersions on a religion that is already poorly received by segments of the American public. The plan, however it plays out, has already provoked disapproval from clerics abroad and intense debate in Internet chat rooms. In addition, a bomb threat forced the organizers to change the site of the service, said Sundaram Tagore, the owner of a SoHo art gallery where the event had originally been scheduled. Rather than discouraging the organizers, the controversy has given them greater resolve, said Asra Q. Nomani, the lead organizer. "People have to really focus on the second-class status that women have in the Muslim world," Ms. Nomani said. "We are taking actions that no one else would have dared to think about before. Nobody cared that we didn't have a place in the faith. We were just abandoned." Whether Muslim women are permitted by Islamic law to serve as prayer leaders is the subject of continued debate among scholars. It is generally accepted that women cannot lead congregational prayers or any kind of prayer in a mosque and must pray in a separate area of the mosque - either in separate rows, another room or behind a partition, said Khaled Abou El Fadl, a law professor who specializes in Islamic law at the University of California, Los Angeles. Ms. Nomani, an author and former reporter for The Wall Street Journal, created a stir last year when she entered her mosque in Morgantown, W. Va., through the front entrance, reserved for men, and insisted on praying with them. Then, a month ago, shortly before publishing a book about women in Islam, Ms. Nomani asked Dr. Amina Wadud to lead the prayer in New York and deliver a sermon. Ms. Wadud teaches at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond. Word of the prayer spread after Ms. Nomani and the editors of Muslim WakeUp!, a Web site, publicized the event and her book. Some opponents believe the service is, in part, an attempt to drum up publicity for Ms. Nomani's book. Major Muslim organizations have declined to sponsor today's scheduled event or speak publicly about it. In the search for a site, the organizers were rebuffed by three New York mosques and several university student organizations, Ms. Nomani said. Even the head of the most established Muslim organization for women in New York, Women in Islam, said she would only attend the prayer as an observer, not as a participant. "My concern is a backlash," said Aisha al-Adawiya, the executive director of Women in Islam. "This kind of change has to come from within the community. It's being driven from outside." The view that the event is somehow being orchestrated from outside the Muslim community is commonly expressed and may reflect a challenging schism between immigrant Muslims and their children and grandchildren. "A new generation of Muslims is coming into its own," said Yvonne Haddad, a professor of history who specializes in women and Islam at Georgetown University. "The children of the immigrants are looking for new ways to create an American Islam, one in which they feel comfortable in an American context." This voice has sounded loudly in New York City. A New Yorker, Ahmed Nassef, a co-founder of Muslim WakeUp! also started the Progressive Muslim Union in November. Quoting studies that show that only 10 percent of Muslims attend mosque every week, Mr. Nassef said he believes that the Muslim community is in a crisis. The root of the problem, he said, is that the nation's mosques and Islamic centers are largely run by immigrants who are out of touch with the new generation of Muslims. "Many of our institutions really don't speak for us," he said. In some ways, Imam Ahmed Dewidar, of the Islamic Center of Mid-Manhattan, personifies the split in the community between old and new. Mr. Dewidar immigrated to the United States from Alexandria, Egypt, a decade ago. "I have never heard of this before," he said, regarding the idea of a woman leading Friday prayer. "It's so strange." But Mr. Dewidar has been urging Muslims at his mosque and elsewhere to be nonconfrontational should they attend the prayer. "We are living in a very open-minded society, and everybody should believe whatever he or she wants as long as they are not harming others," he said. On the other hand, he plans to educate his congregants on the "truthful teachings" of the Prophet, he said: "It's been very well known in the history of Islam that even the wife of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, did not lead the prayer."
03/18/05 at 09:56:04
lala

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
Ember
03/18/05 at 10:14:38
[slm] I don't agree with this but it is quite shameful when we can't resolve these matters verbally. It really is embarrassing and sad when we hear of bomb threats because we don't agree with these people. I recently even read about Pakistani clerics threatening a Pakistani actress and her family because they did not like it that she did a vulgar scene in an Indian movie. Muslim seems synonymous with violence these days. I can't believe that in the US we are behaving like barbarians. As muslims we should be way more civilized. I am so cross with our comunity. It seems like WE are distroying ourselves, either through acts of violence or acts of rebellion.

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
BroHanif
03/19/05 at 07:59:34
Salaams guys long time no speak all I can say is wow this news has gone world wide...created an intense debate on our side in the UK and a lot of people have started questioning whether she is a Muslim or not etc etc I thought let me check Jannah.org and see what the old crew says. [quote]If muslims were giving muslim women their rights, creating space for them in their mosques and islamic institutions, encouraging them in their islamic education and full participation, people like these would not have a voice and events like this would be a footnote instead of creating so much controversy in our communities.[/quote] [quote]To be honest, this movement was to be expected. For years muslim women have been shut out, so they end up either 1. being disenfranchised from muslims and stop going to the mosques and being into the deen  or 2. they end up making up their own wrong interpretations following in the footsteps of western women thinking it is the same type of fight.[/quote] You make me proud sis of saying the truth, if only there were more brothers who thought like you. We seriously would not be in this problem. Here in the UK we have the same thing happening.  It's high time we sat down and thought this problem through. Well done once again! Salaams, Hanif

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
bhaloo
03/20/05 at 08:53:01
[slm] Here is what Sheikh Qaradawi said: http://www.islamonline.net/fatwaapplication/english/display.asp?hFatwaID=122751 In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger. The vast majority of scholars agree that it is not permissible for a woman to lead men in obligatory Prayers. However, there is a minority of scholars who consider it permissible for a woman to lead members of her own household including men in Prayer, on condition that she is old and well-versed in the Qur’an and that she stands behind, not in front of them. A woman is allowed to lead other women in Prayer, in which case she is to stand along with them in the row, not in front of them. As for women’s leading men in general in Prayers, there is a scholarly consensus that it is impermissible. So is also the case with women’s leading people in the Friday Prayer and delivering them the Friday sermon, though they may give other religious lessons in general to people. In his response to your question, the eminent Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi states:    Throughout Muslim history it has never been heard of a woman leading the Friday Prayer or delivering the Friday sermon, even during the era when a woman, Shagarat Ad-Durr, was ruling the Muslims in Egypt during the Mamluk period.    It is established that leadership in Prayer in Islam is to be for men. People praying behind an imam are to follow him in the movements of prayer—bowing, prostrating, etc., and listen attentively to him reciting the Qur’an in Prayer.    Prayer in Islam is an act that involves different movements of the body; it does not consist merely of saying supplications as it is the case with prayer in Christianity. Moreover, it requires concentration of the mind, humility, and complete submission of the heart to Almighty Allah. Hence, it does not befit a woman, whose structure of physique naturally arouses instincts in men, to lead men in Prayer and stand in front of them, for this may divert the men’s attention from concentrating in the Prayer and the spiritual atmosphere required.    Islam is a religion that takes into account the different aspects, material or spiritual, of man’s character. It does not treat people as super angels; it admits that they are humans with instincts and desires. So it is wise of Islam to lay down for them the rulings that avert them succumbing to their desires, especially during acts of worship where spiritual uplifting is required.    Hence, it is to avoid the stirring the instincts of men that the Shari`ah dictates that only men can call for Prayer and lead people in the Prayer, and that women’s rows in Prayer be behind the men. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was reported to have said, “The women’s best rows (in Prayer) are the last ones, and the worst of theirs are the first ones, while the men’s best rows (in Prayer) are the first ones and the worst of theirs are the last ones.”    Rulings pertaining to leadership in Prayer are established by evidence of authentic hadiths as well as the scholarly unanimity of Muslims. They are based on religious teachings, not on social customs as it is has been claimed.    The different juristic schools agree that it is not permissible for women to lead men in the obligatory Prayer, though some scholars voice the opinion that the woman who is well-versed in the Qur’an may lead the members of her family, including men, in Prayer on the basis that there is no room for stirring instincts in this case.    However, there is no single Muslim jurist ever heard to have agreed to the woman’s leading people in the Friday Prayer or delivering its sermon, though if we review the religious texts pertaining to the rulings of Prayer, we will not find a text that states pointblank that women are not permitted to lead people in Prayer or deliver the Friday sermon.    There is only one hadith, which is not well-authenticated, reported by Ibn Majah on the authority of Jabir ibn `Abdullah in this connection; it is to the effect that “A woman may not lead a man in Prayer, nor may a Bedouin lead a believer of the Muhajirun or a corrupt person lead a committed Muslim in Prayer.” The eminent scholars of Hadith say that the chain of reporters of this hadith is extremely weak, and hence, it is not to be taken as evidence in the question in hand.    Furthermore, there is another hadith that contradicts this one. It is reported by Imam Ahmad, Abu Dawud, and others on the authority of Umm Waraqah, who said that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) appointed a muezzin for her, and ordered her to lead the members of her household (who included both men and women) in Prayer.    Though scholars of Hadith also regard the chain of reporters of this hadith as weak, yet it has to do with a special case in which a woman well-versed in the Qur’an led the members of her family in Prayer where usually would be no place for arousing instincts among them.    Furthermore, Ad-Darqatani reported that the order the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) gave to Umm Waraqah here was that she lead the women among her household in Prayer.    Commenting on this report of Ad-Darqatani, Ibn Qudamah said in his book Al-Mughni, “This addition of Ad-Darqatani must be accepted even if it had not been mentioned pointblank in the hadith in question. It is to be logically deduced from the hadith that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) ordered Umm Waraqah to lead the women of her household in obligatory Prayer, for (according to the hadith) he (peace and blessings be upon him) appointed her a muezzin, and the Adhan is practiced only in the obligatory Prayer; besides, there is no scholarly disagreement regarding it being impermissible for women to lead men in obligatory Prayers.”    Ibn Qudamah then said, “Even had Umm Waraqah been ordered to lead both men and women of her household in Prayer, this would have been peculiar to her, for no other woman was appointed a muezzin (by the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him) as was the case with her, and hence, it would have followed from this that leading men of her household in Prayer had been peculiar to her.”    Ibn Qudamah, moreover, supported his view by saying that since women are not permitted to call the Adhan for Prayer for men, they are also not allowed to lead them in Prayer.    But I do not agree with Ibn Qudamah that it is probable that the permission given to Umm Waraqah to lead her household, including men, in Prayer was peculiar to her. I believe that any woman well-versed in the Qur’an like Umm Waraqah may lead her family members, including men, in both obligatory and supererogatory Prayers, especially the Tarawih Prayers.    There is a dependable opinion in the Hanbali School of jurisprudence that says that women can lead men in the Tarawih Prayers.    Az-Zarkashei said in this respect, “According to Imam Ahmad and the majority of his followers, it is permissible for women to lead men in the Tarawih Prayers.”    This has been also reported by Ibn Hubairah to have been held by Imam Ahmad. (Al-Ifsah `an Ma`ani As-Sihah, vol. 1, p. 145.)    But it is to be kept in mind that this applies only to women who are well-versed in the Qur’an when it comes to leading their household and relatives in Prayer. Moreover, some scholars see that this is confined to women who are advanced in age.    In addition, the author of Al-Insaf said, “A woman may lead (her household of) men in Prayer, (but) in which case, she is to stand behind them, to be on the safe side (with regard to arousing instincts).”    Standing behind men in leading Prayer in this case is an exception from the rule that states that the imam of Prayer is to stand before the people he leads, but it should be done here to avoid stirring seduction as far as possible.”    A Woman Leading Other Women in Prayer    Regarding a woman leading ONLY women in Prayer, there are a number of hadiths such as these:    The hadith of `A’ishah and Umm Salamah (may Allah be pleased with them). `Abdur-Raziq (5086), Ad-Daraqutni (1/404) and Al-Bayhaqi (3/131) reported from the narration of Abu Hazim Maysarah ibn Habib from Ra’itah Al-Hanafiyyah from `A’ishah that she led women in Prayer and stood among them in an obligatory Prayer. Moreover, Ibn Abi Shaybah (2/89) reported from the chain of narrators of Ibn Abi Layla from `Ata’ that `A’ishah used to say the Adhan, the Iqamah, and lead women in Prayer while standing among them in the same row. Al-Hakim also reported the same hadith from the chain of narrators of Layth Ibn Abi Sulaim from `Ata’, and the wording of the hadith mentioned here is Al-Hakim’s.    Furthermore, Ash-Shafi`i (315), Ibn Abi Shaybah (88/2) and `Abdur-Raziq (5082) reported from two chains of narrators that report the narration of `Ammar Ad-Dahni in which he stated that a woman from his tribe named Hujayrah narrated that Umm Salamh used to lead women in Prayer while standing among them in the same row.    The wording of `Abdur-Raziq for the same hadith is as follows: “Umm Salamah led us (women) in the `Asr Prayer and stood among us (in the same row).”    In addition, Al-Hafiz said in Ad-Dirayah (1/169), “Muhammad ibn Al-Husain reported from the narration of Ibrahim An-Nakh`i that `A’ishah used to lead women in Prayer during the month of Ramadan while standing among them in the same row.    Further, `Abdur-Raziq reported (5083) from the narration of Ibrahim ibn Muhammad from Dawud ibn Al-Husain from `Ikrimah from Ibn `Abbas that the latter said, “A woman can lead women in Prayer while standing between them.”    Would that our sisters who are so enthusiastic about women’s rights revive this act of Sunnah—a woman leading other women in Prayer—instead of innovating this rejected novelty: a woman leading men in Prayer.    The following is stated in Al-Mughni:    The narrations differ as to whether it is desirable for a woman to lead other women in congregational Prayer. It is reported that the matter is desirable, as the following scholars said that a woman can lead other women in Prayer: `A’ishah, Umm Salamah, `Ata’, Athawri, Al-Awza`i, Ash-Shafi`i, Ishaq, and Abu Thawr. Furthermore, it is narrated that Ahmad ibn Hanbal (may Allah be merciful to him) said that the matter is desirable. However, ahul ar-ra’i (scholars who mostly depend on reason in deducing rulings) regard the matter as undesirable, but if such congregational Prayer is done, it will be sufficient for the women who perform it. As for Ash-Sha`bi, An-Nakh`i and Qatadah, they say that women can perform Prayer this way in supererogatory Prayers but not in obligatory ones.    It is important here to state that the original judgment concerning acts of worship is that anything not prescribed in Shari`ah in explicit texts is prohibited, so that people may not innovate matters in religion not ordained by Allah. Thus, people may not innovate a certain act of worship, change or add things in the ordained ones according to their own fancies or only because they think such matters are desirable. Whoever innovates anything in religion or adds to it whatever is not in it—that addition or innovation is rejected.    That is exactly what Allah has warned us from in the Qur’an when He dispraised the disbelievers saying, (Or have they partners (of Allah) who have made lawful for them in religion that which Allah allowed not?) (Ahs-Shura 42: 21)    The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) also warned against the same wrongdoing in the hadith which states, “Whoever innovates in this matter of ours (i.e., in our religion) whatever is not in it, that innovated thing is rejected” (Al-Bukhari and Muslim). The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) also said, “Beware of innovated matters, for every novelty is perversity” (Ahmad in his Musnad and regarded as authentic). All scholars are resolved that acts of worship are unchangeable and must be taken exactly as Allah has ordained them.    Other religions were distorted and their acts of worship and rituals were changed when people innovated in them, and their men of religion did not stand against innovators.    However, as regards matters like transactions and worldly affairs, the original judgment concerning them is that they are permitted, for the Islamic rule is following in religious matters and innovating in worldly matters. This was the rule to which Muslims adhered during the times of their superiority in civilization. They followed in religion and innovated in life, and that was how they created a lofty civilization. But when their condition worsened, they reversed the matter; they innovated in affairs of religion and kept the worldly affairs.    A last word to conclude this issue: What is the necessity of making all this fuss? Is that what the Muslim woman lacks—to lead men in Friday Prayer? Was that one of the Muslim women’s demands at any time?    We see other religions specifying many matters for men and their women do not protest. So why do our women do so, exaggerating in their demands and arousing what will cause dissension among Muslims at such time when they need their unity the most to face afflictions, hardships, and major plots that aim at their complete destruction?    My advice to the sister referred to in the question is that she should revert to her Lord and religion and extinguish this strife which is unnecessary to be lit. I also advise my Muslim brothers and sisters in the United States not to answer this stirring call and to stand as one in front of these trials and conspiracies woven around them.    I ask Allah to inspire our sons, daughters, brothers, and sisters everywhere sound judgment in speeches and right guidance in deeds. I also ask Him to make them all see what is right and grant them to abide by it, and see what is wrong and grant them to avoid it. Ameen. (Our Lord! Cause not our hearts to stray after Thou hast guided us, and bestow upon us mercy from Thy Presence. Lo! Thou, only Thou art the Bestower) (Aal `Imran 3:8').
03/20/05 at 08:54:46
bhaloo

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
jannah
03/20/05 at 13:24:17
salams from Texas!!! Just attended a talk by a scholar last night, where he brought up this topic and talked about it AT LENGTH. Ma'shallah there is such a difference when a scholar talks about topics and when ordinary people discuss it. There was so much hikmah and wisdom in his talk. Anyway I have to go off to some more exciting adventures here but just want to give you a summary of what he said: -the more you learn about islam the more open-minded and broad minded you get and there was a famous scholar that would never condemn anyone and he would always say 'maybe they are following a different madhab' - then he began with saying that we are so emotional as an ummah and we just get upset with people we disagree with and we don't even talk to each other. like for example the woman who was trying to lead jumah in new york. people are in an emotional fervor about it and issued death threats against her.. instead of trying to communicate with her or discuss things. - first he was extremely upset that some people were giving "death threats" against her. he said that the declaring someone kafir and the laws of murtd (apostacy) are extremely complex and only allowed to be carried out by the state, and even if what she was doing was haram... so many muslims are committing haram and we don't go around calling for their death!!! - secondly he said that he knows sister amina personally and feels that she is very sincere, she has dedicated her life to islam becoming an islamic studies professor and studying islam. even if she is confused or saying something wrong does not mean we should mock or not respect her. she has more sincerity towards islam than some of the people criticizing her. if he met her he would say salam to her. - then he said that yes there are texts that talk about women leading the prayer and mentioned a reference by abu thawr and tabari who was one of the leading mufassarin of islamic history who said under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE they can lead AND IBN TAYMIYYAH said for taraweeh? (i think the audience was quite shocked) - he then went on to say that a woman leading jumah however is INVALID and this is agreed upon by the consensus of the scholars in all schools of Islamic thought - so he said that yes its INVALID but we should be careful not to get all emotional and reactionary about it and we should be calm and 'cool as a cucumber' and try to bring people back into the fold of islamic mainstream instead of alienating them.. instead of chasing people further away with condemnation and hatred - he gave an example of this shaikh from morocco who went to a jumah led by a woman physician and he waited till the end to ask her what was going on, and turns out that all the men had just converted to islam and since jumah was wajib she didn't know what to do so she ended up doing it..but the shaikh didn't go up and start yelling at her or calling her kaffir etc. he kindly went up and asked her if they followed a different madhab or something!! -he said this wasn't a new thing and there are some places where women have been giving khutbah for a long time, and sadly some of their khutbahs are better than men's!! (all the audience cracked upon that) and this is a reflection of the times - he said there are so many muslims that don't even pray and these people are at least wanting to pray and are sicnere, so we should honor that and not humiliate them because at least they have some kind of concern for their deen -we shouldn't chase people away from islam, what is better than condemning her is trying to bring to bring her back into the mainstream scholarship of islam -  we can have valid differences and still talk to one another with dignity and honor -he then went on to talk about the unity of the community etc and his main talk - Lastly a note in the Q&A, he said that we have to be careful about saying that Islamic scholarship is patriarchal. it's dangerous to say that because we have so many scholars that were women even going back to Aisha ra. who would ask questions of the prophet to the extent of questioning his actions and questioning why this verse and this verse seemingly seemed contradictory, and he would explain it to her. modern countries may oppress women but that is completely separate from our Islamic history of scholarship. and..... I have to go but I thought you guys could benefit from that inshallah. May Allah forgive my mistakes in transmittal and Allah knows best... see you at home soon :) salaam

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
sissy
03/20/05 at 14:07:23
[slm] Masha Allah... Jazak Allahu khayran Jannah for your last post... the words that you heard at the talk you attended is exactly what i have been waiting to read...someone who calls for being calm and showing mercy and wisdom. That is the way of the Prophet(saws)...not shouting "Kaffir!" immediately....when i heard about this, i remembered the hadeeth where the Prophet(saws) was sitting in the mosque and a bedouin man came and urinated in the mosque and the people wanted to attack him but the Prophet(saws) stayed calm and told them not to interrupt him untill he was finished and then to pour water over the spot where he urinated. There are so many hadeeths that teaches us to be calm and to show mercy. If we all were following that, it wouldnt have come to this point, the fact that something like this is happening can not be blamed on just this woman. If someone doesnt have the right knowledge, instead of attacking that person, it would be so much better to try and sit with that person and talk in a calm way to try to pass on your (sound) knowledge. Calling someone a kaffir is something you have to so careful about, wich is another thing this scholar mentioned like you wrote. Narrated Abu Dhar: That he heard the Prophet saying, "If somebody accuses another of Fusuq (by calling him 'Fasiq' i.e. a wicked person) or accuses him of Kufr, such an accusation will revert to him (i.e. the accuser) if his companion (the accused) is innocent."  [Bukhari] I'm very pleased that you took the time to write down these very useful words...i hope we all can learn from this! [wlm]

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
MIT
03/21/05 at 09:24:13
assalaamu alaikum Jannah, I feel that the shaikh whose comments you posted completely missed the bigger picture - if your post was a summary of his main points. He can't see the wood for the trees. Sure, those points he mentioned were beneficial, but did he make reference to the fact that the main organiser of this event was Asra Nomani - who we have heard of before? Or of the "progressive" organisations that backed this event of whom we have also heard before. Or most importantly did he mention that events like this are part of an agenda to intrinsically change Islam so that it is nothing more than some Hallelujah religion like all the others, with no real substance to it? Or did he mention the irony in that the service took place in a church whose very name epitomises what Islam is against: shirk. Salaah in the the "Synod House of the Cathedral of St John the Divine" ??? What a joke! If that isn't a sign that there was something COMPLETELY wrong with the whole event i don't know what is.   PS. Where is this place where women have been giving khutbas for a long time?

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
jannah
03/21/05 at 12:56:47
slm, MIT those are separate issues, he was talking about the specific event and the sister. Everyone knows who the organizers and supporters are. Muslims have prayed in churches before and it is allowed. I know that some people have a different vision of Islam -- ie this is right and that is wrong. They are the one's who only see black and white and in the process alienate Muslims and take them away from Islam. Were there not Muslims who drank during the time of Ras (saw), were there not Muslims who fornicated, were there not Muslims who stole? All of these things and worse were present and NOTE how the prophet [saw] dealt with them. In an age when some say a huge percentage of Muslims don't even pray, these people are at least trying to pray and I for one beleive that some of them are sincere. They really do want to improve the status of women. The way they have gone about their "dawah" is not correct, but I know so many others "dawah" that is equally not correct and has not gotten the least attention as this has. Not seeing the forest for the trees?? I don't think so... a scholar's job is to issue fatwas and we can see two in this thread which is fine... but a Muslim's duty is to another Muslim, it's not to issue fatwas and declare who we think is kaffir. THIS is seeing the forest for all of us. Something can be wrong, but the way people react to it can bring about even more wrong - and what is worse? Saying something is invalid and trying to bring them back into the fold of Islam or declaring them kaffir (which is not correct islamically anyway btw) and taking sincere Muslims out of the fold of Islam forever! Unfortunately the way some Muslims have reacted has only alienated more Muslims....

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
bhaloo
03/21/05 at 22:02:12
[slm] The thing that is upsetting for people is that this woman claims to be some sort of scholar of Islam.  And she is claiming that this is sanctioned in Islam.  Yes, there are people that don't pray, or don't know rulings on some Islamic matters, but they aren't pretending to be a scholar and aren't saying it publically for the world to hear.  These people must be explained things with hikmah.  This woman has created confusion among Muslims, and scholars need to speak up and denounce her deviant statements, OTHERWISE many ignorant Muslims will think its right.  Her statements have spread worldwide and people all over the world are aware of this.    But beyond this Friday incidence was her Toronto incidence where she said "No to the Quran".  And the whole homosexual issue, the black issue, and the punishments in Islam for theft are very upsetting to hear, to hear someone that claims to be a scholar of Islam and she said this publically at the Toronto speech.   Here was a list of some more replies by some scholars in response to her. Question to Al-'Allamah Abdul-Azeez Ibn Abdullaah Aal Shaykh Grand Mufti of Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Chairman of Council of Senior Scholars. Chairman of Permanent committee of Islamic Research and Fatawaa Question: It was reported in Sharq-al-Ausat newspaper that next Friday there will be a Friday prayer with a mixed congregation of men and women, led by a woman. What are your comments on this? Answer: By Allah, if the people have reached this level – if the people have lowered themselves to this level, this is evil upon evil. A woman is not permitted to lead a man in prayers. If a woman has reached a level where she desires to lead men and women in prayers, it should be known that her purpose and the purpose of her followers in doing this is not to bring good, rather it is to wage war against Allah and His Messenger. They have not established this Friday prayer except as a stubborn rejection of the truth, and an invitation to evil, and a deterrent from the teachings of Islam. It has not been recorded in Islamic history that a woman led men in prayers, and it was never done. So how can these people come and establish a Friday prayer with men and women mixed together, and a woman leading the prayer? This is in reality a most repulsive matter, and it is evil upon evil. The people who wish to establish this only want, as Allah mentioned: (translation) “And as for those who put up a mosque by way of harming and disbelief, and to disunite the believers, and as an outpost for those who warred against Allâh and His Messenger aforetime.” (At-Tawbah 9:107) This Friday prayer is invalid, and it is not permissible for a Muslim to attend it. Shaykh Saalih Ibn Muhammed Al-Luhaydaan Member of Council of Senior Scholars Member of Lajnah Ad-Daaimah Q1. There is a woman among us, who is a professor of Islamic studies in one of the universities, who claims that there is no prohibition in Islam for a woman to lead men in the congregational prayer. This woman is planning to deliver a Friday sermon as well as lead the Friday prayers, for a congregation of men and women. This woman believes that women praying in the back rows of the mosque behind men has nothing to do with Islam, but rather it is the it is the result of following old customs and cultural practices. Due to this belief, this Friday she will place the women's rows in front, and the men will pray behind them. What is the Islamic position on this issue? And what is the ruling on men praying behind women? A1. All Praise is due to Allah, and peace and blessings be on His Messenger who delivered the message, fulfilled the trust given to him, advised the nation, and left us on a clear path. Nobody deviates from this path except that he is religiously destroyed. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) explained to us what was revealed to him by Allah in the Quran. Allah revealed the Quran as a clarification for all things, and He ordered His prophet to explain to the people what has been revealed to them by their Lord. And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fulfilled this duty and clarified all issues. He never made a woman a leader of prayers for men. Allah says: (translation) "Men are the care-takers of women" And when He mentioned the relationship between men and women, He made clear that men are favored over women. With regards to acts of worship, however, it is necessary for women to carry out the same obligations as men. For instance, women are required to observe all the daily prayers, just as men are. This obligation is never waived except if a woman is menstruating or in the period of post-childbirth bleeding. It is not permissible for a woman to lead men in prayers, as it is not permissible for her to deliver a Friday sermon. A woman is not allowed to be a leader for men in obligatory or supererogatory prayers. She is only permitted to lead other women in prayers, and while she is doing this, she should stay in the middle of the first row of women she is leading, and she should not come in front of them. What I have mentioned here is the opinion of the majority of Islamic scholars, past and present. And it is not proper for a woman who believes in Allah and the Last Day to innovate into this religion what Allah and His Messenger have not allowed. This professor you mentioned, perhaps intends to deliver a Friday sermon, or perhaps she would like to lead the people in the Friday prayer. This is a matter that is not permissible in Islamic law. No evidence can be found to support her position in the Quran, the Sunnah, the sayings of the companions and their followers, or the sayings of the people of knowledge. If this woman is Muslim, then it is obligatory for her to comply to the rulings set by Islam, and to follow the guidance of the Mothers of the Believers, and the women of the companions, may Allah be pleased with them all. I do not know of anyone from any period of time who has allowed a woman to lead the people in Friday prayers or deliver a Friday sermon. This never occurred during the time of the rightly-guided caliphs, which was the peak of the Islamic nation, nor during the Umayyah or Abbasi dynasties. Actually, it never occurred during any time whatsoever. So there is no doubt that this is clear misguidance, and we ask Allah to guide that woman, and those who accept her position, to the truth. Q2. This woman says that she disagrees with the Quranic ruling mandating cutting off the hand of a thief, because she believes that cutting off someone's hand is brutal behavior. Also, she does not submit to some of the Quranic rulings that pertain to Islamically prescribed punishments. What is the ruling on one who denies the permissibility of cutting off the hand of a thief? A2. One who denies a ruling that is clearly stated in the Quran becomes a disbeliever, and leaves the fold of Islam. Allah says (translation) "The male and female thief -- cut off their hands." However, for this ruling to be carried out, certain conditions must be met. For instance it should be clear that the thief didn't mistakenly take money that he thought was his. Also, if a Muslim takes money from the Muslim public treasury, his hand is not to be cut off, rather he is to be punished in a way that will deter himself and others from committing this crime in the future. When people start to deny the laws that the Quran has set, then they have actually started to leave Islam and remove it's companionship from their necks. And by doing so, there is a great evil and misguidance, its extent known onhy to Allah. Q3. This professor says that if a Muslim finds difficulty or problems understanding some verses of the Quran, it is permissible to reject these verses and say "No" to the Quran. What is the ruling on such a statement? A3. One who makes this statement has fallen into a dangerous situation. The Quran was revealed in the language of the Arabs, and it is completely understood in the language of the Arabs, except for the matters of the unseen, and this was explained by the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). As for those who follow the unclear verses in the Quran, they are the people whose hearts have deviated from the straight path. In the Quran there are verses that are understandable to any Arab who can read and understand the Arabic language. There are other verses that deal with detailed rulings, and these have been explained by the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Allah says (translation) "that you (O Prophet) explain to the people what has been revealed to them." The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fulfilled this duty and explained everything. Allah also mentioned about the Quran (translation) "In it are verses that are precise -- they are the foundation of the Book, and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation, the will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation (suitable to them)." These are the people of misguidance. As for those who have firm knowledge, they say "We believe in it, all of it is from our Lord." As for the idea of rejecting the verses of the Quran that one does not understand, it should be known that recitation of the Quran is an act of worship, even if the reciter does not understand what he is reading. If he is able to read and understand what he is reading, then he has been given a great blessing. Intentionally rejecting a verse from the Quran, and firmly resolving not to accept it, is actually firmly resolving to leave Islam. This is something that none of the people of knowledge have ever agreed to. The Quran was revealed as a clarification for all things, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) explained these things to us in his Sunnah. The Sunnah of the Prophet clarifies what is difficult to understand in the Quran. It limits, specifies, and clarifies certain rulings. Furthermore, the Quran cannot be understood by all people. A person with greater understanding of the Arabic language can comprehend the general verses of the Quran better than others. Whoever deviates from this understanding has deviated from the straight path, and taken the other paths that lead to misguidance. Allah says (translation): "And surely this is My straight path, so follow it, and do not follow the (other) ways, for you will be separated from His way." The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) once was with his companions, and he drew a straight line. He drew to the left and right many crooked lines. He then said that the straight line was the path of Allah, whereas the crooked lines were the other paths, with each one having a devil calling to it. Then he recited the previously mentioned verse: (translation) "And surely this is My straight path, so follow it, and do not follow the (other) ways, for you will be separated from His way." We ask Allah to protect us and keep us safe from this. Q4. When this professor was asked about implementation of Islamic laws in Canada, she rejected this suggestion, but in the same lecture, she gave her support to same-sex marriages? What do you say about this? A4. This statement does not even need to be discussed. Is this woman a Muslim? A Muslim would never make such a statement. It is impossible for a sane Muslim to make such a statement. She is not only allowing homosexuality, but encouraging and justifying it by suggesting that same-sex marriages should be recognized. On the other hand, she is rejecting the implementation of Islamic law. Is she a Muslim. No one from the fold of Islam would allow a man to marry a man and a woman to marry a woman. The only question is: Should a man who commits homosexuality be executed or not? Should it be carried out by stoning or not? Most of the companions were of the opinion that men who commit homosexuality should be executed. Shaykh-ul-Islam ibn Taymiyyah mentioned that the companions and the Tabi'een had a consensus on the issue of execution, but the difference of opinion was on how it should be carried out? Should they be stoned, or thrown off the highest structure in the land? The idea of legalizing homosexuality is filthy and evil, and could never be supported by a Muslim. We ask Allah to keep us safe. Q5. This woman says that it is the right of women to sit with men in the main hall of the mosque, without any barrier, and it is the right of women to participate in all activities normally reserved for men, such as leading the prayers, etc... What is the correct position in this matter? A5. Surely, this is from misguidance. Women have roles and jobs specific to them, and men have roles and jobs specific to them. Allah specified women to carry children and give birth. Also, Allah says: (translation) "Men are the care-takers of women." And when the Persians appointed the daughter of Kisra as the leader of their kingdom after his death, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said (translation): "A nation who appoints a woman as its leader will not be successful." Furthermore, even the testimony of a woman is not equal to that of a man. According to the Quran, the testimony of two women is equal to that of one man. As for crowds of men and women entering the mosque from the same door, and the issue of women and men sitting side by side without a barrier, this is something that is totally against the etiquettes of Islam. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said (translation): “The best rows for the women are the last ones, and the worst ones are the front ones." And he said with regards to the prayer, which is the most important act of worship (translation): "If the wife of one of you asks for permission to go to the mosque, let him not prevent her, but their houses are better for them." He also said : (translation): the first trial that affected the Children of Israel was due to women." The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) also informed us that he did not leave behind a more harmful trial for men than women. So we say: May Allah guide the men and women of the Muslims to hold fast to their religion and respect the rulings of Allah, and constrain their actions to comply with the Quran and the Sunnah and what the scholars have agreed upon. No nation has a methodology that addresses all situations of man and his personal life, as well as his business dealings, his relations with friends and enemies, his relations with his family and relatives, his relations with the rulers and subjects -- no nation has a methodology that deals with these relationships like the methodology of Islam. And whoever wants something other than Islam, wants to fall into clear misguidance. And help is sought with Allah.
03/21/05 at 22:33:13
bhaloo

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
bhaloo
03/21/05 at 22:03:19
[slm] continued.... Shaykh Abdullaah Ali Ar-Rukbaan Member of Council of Senior Scholars Member of Lajnah Ad-Daaimah Q1. There is a woman among us, who is a professor of Islamic studies in one of the universities, who claims that there is no prohibition in Islam for a woman to lead men in the congregational prayer. This woman is planning to deliver a Friday sermon as well as lead the Friday prayers, for a congregation of men and women. This woman believes that women praying in the back rows of the mosque behind men has nothing to do with Islam, but rather it is the it is the result of following old customs and cultural practices. Due to this belief, this Friday she will place the women's rows in front, and the men will pray behind them. What is the Islamic position on this issue? And what is the ruling on men praying behind women? A1. Islam has brought honor to women, and has given them a position that suits them. It has made women similar to men in many matters, but it has differentiated between them in other matters, with respect to what each sex naturally excels in. Islam raised the status of women, and gave them importance. Allah says (translation): “And due to them is similar to what is expected of them.” It is not permissible for a woman to lead men in prayers, because leading the prayers is something that is exclusively reserved for men. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said in an authentic narration: “A woman is not to lead a man in prayers.” Because of this, what the woman mentioned in the question plans to do is shocking, and it is in opposition to what the majority of the scholars have agreed upon. Also, it is known that history has never recorded a case in which a women led men in Friday prayers, or any other prayer for that matter. If this ever happened, the narration would have surely been transmitted to us. It is not permissible to submit to the whims and desires while rejecting the Islamic rulings. It is also not permissible to follow an understanding that has no evidence to support it. By doing this, a person is actually disregarding the fundamental principles of the religion. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) ordered the women to pray in the back rows, behind the rows of men, so that no mixing between the sexes would take place. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said “The best row for women is the last one, and the worst is the first one. And the best row for men is the first one, and the worst one is the last one.” If a woman leads men in prayer, then this prayer is not valid according to the majority of the scholars of all the different schools of thought. As for women praying in front of men, this act invalidates the men’s prayer, according to what many of the scholars have stated. With regards to this woman who plans to lead the prayers and place women in front of men, it is incumbent on her to fear Allah, and she must not submit to her own whims and desires while disregarding the rulings of Allah. She should not treat the rulings of Islam like a toy that can be played with. When one starts putting his or her whims and desires before the commandments of Islam, this leads to the loss of discipline, and the loss of obedience to the rules of Allah. It is permissible for a woman to lead other women in prayer. If a woman leads other women in prayer, it is better for her to stay in the middle of the front row, without standing in front of the congregation. However, if she does stand in front of them, there is no problem with that. It is obligatory on the brothers who have a connection with this woman to advise her to fear Allah and try to convince her to return to the truth and reject her false ideology. It has been narrated in the Sunnah that whoever initiates an evil practice will carry his own sin as well as the sin of all of those who follow his example until the Day of Judgement. I fear that this woman will carry the sin of what she has said, as well as the sins of everyone who accepts and follows her position in the future. Q2. This woman says that she disagrees with the Quranic ruling mandating cutting off the hand of a thief, because she believes that cutting off someone's hand is brutal behavior. Also, she does not submit to some of the Quranic rulings that pertain to Islamically prescribed punishments. What is the ruling on one who denies the permissibilty of cutting off the hand of a thief? A2. Amputation of the hand of the thief is an Islamic ruling that is agreed upon by all the scholars. The Quran is very clear on this ruling. Allah says (translation) “And the male and female thief, cut off their hands in recompense for what they have done, as a deterrent from Allah. And Allah is All-Mighty, Most Wise ” And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The hand of the thief is to be amputated for (theft of) a quarter of a dinar or more.” The Ahadith that mention the amputation of the hand of the thief are correct and authentic. A woman who stole was once brought to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and he ordered for her hand to be amputated. Intercession to the Prophet was done on her behalf, as she was a woman of honor and high social status. The Prophet then delivered a sermon and said “What destroyed the people before you is that when a person of high status stole, they would leave him, but when a weak person stole, they would carry out the prescribed punishment. By Allah, if Fatimah the daughter of Muhammad were to steal, Muhammad would cut off her hand.” So the rejection of the Islamic ruling on the one who steals is a very dangerous matter, and it is feared that one who holds this opinion has exited the circle of Islam. It is obligatory on the Muslims to fully accept all the rulings that have been revealed in the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger, and to submit to these rulings with obedience to Allah and compliance with His commands. It is important that the Muslims do not pay attention to what the enemies of Islam say, as they try to place doubt in the Muslims with regards to the Islamic rulings. If the punishment for stealing was carried out correctly, the crime of theft would be virtually eliminated, and because of this, only very few hands would be cut. Enemies of Islam try to place doubts in the hearts of the Muslims with regards to this ruling and others like it, and behind this effort is their own agenda. It is incumbent on the Muslims not to be affected by these efforts. Rather, Muslims should take pride in their religion and carry out all of its commandments, and by doing this they will gain honor and happiness in this world and the Hereafter. It is necessary for Muslims to fully accept all rulings that have been revealed in the Quran. Allah says (translation): “But no, by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in submission.” Q3. This professor says that if a Muslim finds difficulty or problems understanding some verses of the Quran, it is permissible to reject these verses and say "No" to the Quran. What is the ruling on such a statement? A3. This statement is extremely dangerous. It is necessary for the Muslim to accept each and every verse found in the Book of Allah., and to submit fully to every command and ruling. If a person reads and understands a ruling, this is well and good, but if he doesn’t understand a particular ruling, then it is obligatory on him to ask the people of knowledge to clarify it for him. It is not permissible for a person to reject following a verse in the Quran just because he doesn’t understand its meaning. If we were to accept this methodology, there would be nothing left in our religion, because many of the people do not understand many of the rulings of Islam. Only those who Allah has blessed with knowledge are able to fully comprehend the rulings found in the Quran. This level of comprehension requires a person to spend all his time studying the Book of Allah and its interpretation according to the scholars of Islam. Q4. When this professor was asked about implementation of Islamic laws in Canada, she rejected this suggestion, but in the same lecture, she gave her support to same-sex marriages. What do you say about this? A4. It is necessary for the Muslim to adhere to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger, and to understand the Quran and Sunnah correctly, without falling into extremism or over-leniency. And it is necessary to call others to this religion and spread it all over the world. It is necessary for the Muslim to observe the commandments of Islam personally, as well as call others towards the observance of these commandments in all of their affairs, public and private. The last people of this Ummah will not be made upright except by that which made the first people of this Ummah upright. The religion of Islam is the religion of love, mercy, and kindness, and it has given everyone their rights, Muslims as well as non-Muslims. Same-sex marriage is an issue of the utmost vulgarity. It is something that any sane mind would reject. In addition to this, there was never a religious legal code from the nations before us that allowed same-sex marriage. The laws of Islam are in front of all these laws, and they do not allow for sexual relations between men and men or between women and women. Actually this is considered from among the greatest of the major sins, and it is even worse if there is an attempt to rationalize it through a marriage contract. This woman must fear Allah and repent to Him, and seek forgiveness for what she has said and done. Also, it is necessary for the brothers who live in the land where this women resides to advise her with kindness and gentleness, with hope that Allah may guide her and those who have been affected by her ideas. Shaykh Ali Abdur-Rehmaan Al-Huthayfi Imaam and Khateeb of Prophet's Masjid, Madinah Q1. There is a woman among us, who is a professor of Islamic studies in one of the universities, who claims that there is no prohibition in Islam for a woman to lead men in the congregational prayer. This woman is planning to deliver a Friday sermon as well as lead the Friday prayers, for a congregation of men and women. This woman believes that women praying in the back rows of the mosque behind men has nothing to do with Islam, but rather it is the it is the result of following old customs and cultural practices. Due to this belief, this Friday she will place the women's rows in front, and the men will pray behind them. What is the Islamic position on this issue? And what is the ruling on men praying behind women? A1. The answer to this question is that the prayer of a woman as a leader of men and women is not valid. The prayer of the woman leading the prayers, as well as the prayer of all the men and women praying behind her, are all invalid and unacceptable. The Prophet said : “Pray as you have seen me praying.” It has never been narrated in Islamic history that a woman led prayers for men and women. What is required from women according to Islamic law is that they remain concealed, shy, and modest. This action – a woman leading men and women in prayers, is an act that is in opposition to the Quran and the Sunnah, because Allah made leadership for men. The Prophet said: “The leader was placed to be followed.” The purpose behind what this woman is attempting to do is to alter the understanding of Islam that all the scholars have agreed upon. However, it is impossible for anyone to block the light of the sun, and it is impossible for anyone to harm Islam with anything. The plan of this woman is a weak plan. It is necessary for this woman to be warned and prevented from this action, so it cannot spread, and so others will not be convinced to follow her misguidance, because surely this is a matter that is clearly false and deviant. Q2. This woman says that she disagrees with the Quranic ruling mandating cutting off the hand of a thief, because she believes that cutting off someone's hand is brutal behavior. Also, she does not submit to some of the Quranic rulings that pertain to Islamically prescribed punishments. What is the ruling on one who denies the permissibility of cutting off the hand of a thief? A2. Whoever denies the ruling on amuptation of the hand oh the thief -- which is clearly proven by the Quran and the Sunnah – whoever denies this is a disbeliever. If the person who denies this ruling is said to be among the Muslims, then this denial takes him out of Islam, and if the person is not a Muslim, then he is an clear enemy of Islam. This woman who has made this statement has no portion of Islam at all. The statement of disbelievers can never be accepted, because they are ignorant, evil-doing enemies of Islam. The statement of this woman is the most evil of things that has been heard, and the most filthy of things that has been written on this issue. This is from the evil plots that the enemies of Islam have planned against the Muslim, but Islam is like a mountain – even the strongest winds cannot harm or shake it. Q3. This professor says that if a Muslim finds difficulty or problems understanding some verses of the Quran, it is permissible to reject these verses and say "No" to the Quran. What is the ruling on such a statement? A3. The answer to this question is that there is no verse in the Quran that contains a command or a prohibition or any legislation thats meaning is hidden. Actually the Quran is very clear in its wording and rulings, and the interpretation of these rulings can be known through the people of knowledge, and the books of knowledge. The statement of this woman is a filthy statement, and it is a statement of disbelief. Disbelief has many stages and levels, with some levels being greater than others, and the statement of this woman is one of the greatest and most repulsive forms of disbelief. She has come with a statement that is from the darkest depths of disbelief. Actually this statement is darkness upon darkness. Q4. When this professor was asked about implementation of Islamic laws in Canada, she rejected this suggestion, but in the same lecture, she gave her support to same-sex marriages? What do you say about this? A4. This statement, regarding men marrying men and women marrying women, can be refuted by looking at the world of animals. Even animals do not degrade themselves to this filthy, vulgar, repulsive level. This woman, by making such a statement, has made herself filthier and more repulsive than any animal or beast on the face of this earth. Q5. This woman says that it is the right of women to sit with men in the main hall of the mosque, without any barrier, and it is the right of women to participate in all activities normally reserved for men, such as leading the prayers, etc... What is the correct position in this matter? A5. This filthy repulsive woman is legislating laws for herself according to her own whims and desires. Whoever is able to prevent her from spreading these evil animalistic ideas, his reward will be with Allah. This woman is pleased to put herself in a position lower and more degrading than that of the animals. She legislates laws for herself according to what her own whims and desires dictate to her, and she speaks for no one but herself, because Allah honored the daughters of the children of Adam, and he said : (translation) “And surely We have honored the children of Adam.” As for the person whom Allah has not honored to obey Him, there is no one on ths earth who can honor such a person, and this person will be in constant disgrace and humility until he is placed in the fire to abide therein forever. Shaykh Abdul-Muhsin Al-Abbad reply to this Q1. There is a woman among us, who is a professor of Islamic studies in one of the universities, who claims that there is no prohibition in Islam for a woman to lead men in the congregational prayer. This woman is planning to deliver a Friday sermon as well as lead the Friday prayers, for a congregation of men and women. This woman believes that women praying in the back rows of the mosque behind men has nothing to do with Islam, but rather it is the it is the result of following old customs and cultural practices. Due to this belief, this Friday she will place the women's rows in front, and the men will pray behind them. What is the Islamic position on this issue? And what is the ruling on men praying behind women? A1. The answer to this question is that it is not permissible for a woman to lead men in prayers. It is not obligatory for women to pray in the mosques, as it is for men, but if women attend the mosques, they must stay far from the men, as is understood from the Hadith of Abu Hurairah, narrated in Muslim, where the Prophet said : “The best row for men is the first one, and the worst one is the last one, and the best row for women is the last one, and the worst one is the first one.” So when a woman comes to the mosque, she must keep far from the men in obedience to the command of the Prophet. This is not from customs or cultural practices as mentioned in the question, rather it is the Sunnah of the Prophet, and that we mentioned is authentic, narrated by Muslim. So the prayer of a woman as a leader for men is not permissible, and if they performed their prayer behind a woman, then this prayer is not valid. It is not permissible for the people to appoint a woman as a leader for prayers, but rather it is obligatory that they prevent her from doing so. The Muslim is required to fully submit to all the orders of Allah and His Prophet. Allah says: (translation) “It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter that they should have any choice in their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has surely strayed into clear error.” And Allah says: (translation) “Whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you from, refrain (from it). And fear Allah. Surely Allah is severe in punishment.” And He says: (translation): “So let those beware who dissent from his (the Prophet’s) order, lest a trial strike them, or a painful punishment.” These are clear texts from the Quran that prove that it is obligatory for a Muslim to hold fast to the commands of Allah, and it is not permissible to go against the rulings of Allah and do something that is forbidden. And it has never been recorded in history that a woman ever led men in prayers. So in conclusion, this is a matter that is evil, and an act that is forbidden. It is not permissible for the people to appoint her to lead the prayers, and it is necessary that a man leads them instead. Also, the women should be completely separated from the men, according to the authentic Hadith that we mentioned before. And Allah knows best. Q2. This woman says that she disagrees with the Quranic ruling mandating cutting off the hand of a thief, because she believes that cutting off someone's hand is brutal behavior. Also, she does not submit to some of the Quranic rulings that pertain to Islamically prescribed punishments. What is the ruling on one who denies the permissibility of cutting off the hand of a thief? A2. Whoever rejects any ruling of Allah, like the ruling mandating amputation of the hand of a thief - whoever rejects these rulings and says that they are brutal has committed apostasy from Islam and has denied what has been revealed in the Quran. Q3. This professor says that if a Muslim finds difficulty or problems understanding some verses of the Quran, it is permissible to reject these verses and say "No" to the Quran. What is the ruling on such a statement? A3. This statement is apostasy from Islam. It is not permissible to say “No” to the Quran. Rather, it is obligatory to say “We hear and we obey.” Allah says: (translation) “It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter that they should have any choice in their affair.” What this woman has said is not from the words of the Muslims, rather it is from the words of the apostates from Islam, who are at war with Islam. As for the Muslim, he has no choice but to fully accept and submit to the commands of Allah and His Messenger. Q4. When this professor was asked about implementation of Islamic laws in Canada, she rejected this suggestion, but in the same lecture, she gave her support to same-sex marriages? What do you say about this? A4. This is in opposition to the natural state in which Allah created people. If it is true that his woman made such a statement, then she is far from Islam, and not from among the Muslims. Rather she is from among the disbelievers and apostates. If it is true that she made these statements, then each one of these statements takes her out of the fold of Islam. The statement she made about amputation of the thief’s hand being brutal is a statement of disbelief and apostasy. Likewise, the statement she made about saying “No” to the Quran when one’s whims don’t agree with it, is a statement of disbelief and apostasy. Also, the statement she made supposrting same-sex relationships is a statement that is totally in opposition to the natural state in which Allah created the people. Q5. This woman says that it is the right of women to sit with men in the main hall of the mosque, without any barrier, and it is the right of women to participate in all activities normally reserved for men, such as leading the prayers, etc... What is the correct position in this matter? A5. A woman is prohibited from mixing with men. When the Prophet would lead the people in prayer, and women would attend the mosque, he would stay with the men in the mosque for a period of time after the prayer was over, so the women would have time to leave without having to mix with the men. Then, after the women left, the Prophet would leave with the men, and the purpose of this was to avoid mixing between men and women. So how can this woman or other than her feel that they have the right to mix with the opposite sex and participate in activities that are reserved for men? A woman is not allowed to hold a position of leadership, as the Prophet said: “A nation that gives a woman leadership over their affair will never succeed.” As I mentioned before, a Muslim has no choice but to fully accept and submit to the commands of Allah. Audio is located here of the above fatawas:  http://www.albaseerah.org/audio/imamah.htm
03/21/05 at 23:00:04
bhaloo

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
bhaloo
03/22/05 at 00:27:13
[slm] From the ISNA website: Fiqh Council on Woman Imam Leading Men and Women in Salat     by Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi            Islam places no restriction on women to teach, preach and guide both women and men. “Men and women are supporters of each other. They command what is right and forbid what is wrong… (Al-Tawbah 9:71) There are many women today who are fully qualified to be jurists (faqihah) and give religious opinions (fatawa).  They do issue fatwa and teach Qur’an and Hadith in schools, colleges and universities all over the world. Many Islamic organizations, Islamic centers and mosques in America also have very learned and knowledgeable sisters who participate in their Masajid’s boards and involve themselves in administration, teaching, preaching and counseling. Muslims should give them more opportunities, allow them and encourage them to become full partners in Islamic work. Leading Salat, however, is restricted to male Imams only when the congregation consists of men and women both, whether the prayer is performed in the mosques or outside mosques, whether they are daily Salat or Friday and Eid Salat. Women are not allowed to lead such prayers. This has also been the practice of Muslims all over the world since the time of the Prophet –peace be upon him. This Shar’i ruling is not because of any notion of spiritual deficiency among women.  Men and women both are equal in the sight of Allah and both of them must be fully respected and honored. Women are allowed to lead the Salat when the congregation is all females.  They are also allowed to lead the Salat in their homes among their family members, if they are more knowledgeable of the Qur’an and Islamic rules. Recently some people have started a controversy about this matter of Shari’ah. Questions are being asked about the Islamic reasons why women are barred from leading the prayers of men and women both.  In order to understand the rules and wisdom of Shari’ah in this matter, following points are in order: There is a difference between Salat and Du’a in Islam.  Salat is a fixed and formalized form of prayer.  Its timings, positions, postures, style including the wording and recitations are all fixed by the Prophet -peace be upon him. It is not permissible to introduce any new style or liturgy in Salat. Du’a, however, is another form of Islamic prayer that is informal and there is no restriction as to who performs it and how and when it is performed.  It can be performed in any language. It can be done individually or collectively.  It can be led by males or females.  In Salat we are supposed to follow the Sunnah. We cannot add or delete anything from the Salat if we want our Salat to be valid and acceptable to Allah. About Du’a one can say that since we are not forbidden to do our Du’a in a particular manner we are allowed to do it the way we want it; but in Salat every thing is forbidden unless it is allowed.  For example the Prophet –peace be upon him- did not say that Salat cannot be performed in English. He did not say that you cannot have Salat in congregation six times a day. Now based on this argument we cannot start having our Salat in English or six times every day. In our Salat we stand very close to each other or as we say “shoulder to shoulder and ankle to ankle” almost touching each other.  We stand in straight lines.  We make ruku’ and sujud.  We are supposed to pray with sincerity and devotion concentrating our heart and mind towards the prayer. For this reason the Prophet –peace be upon him- told us that men and women should have separate lines.  The lines of men should be in the front area, then the lines of children and then women.  The Imam should stand in front of the congregation and should make ruku’ and sajdah before the congregation and they should follow the Imam. The ideal way in this structure of prayer service is to separate men from women and not allow a woman to be ahead of all men and bow and prostrate in front of them.  Haya’ is a special character of Islam. It is emphasized that men and women both must observe Haya’ (modesty) always and especially in their places of worship. Prophet’s wife ‘Aishah and his Companion Ibn ‘Abbas are reported to have said that a woman leading other women in prayer should not stand in front of them like a male Imam, but in their midst.     Some people refer to the Hadith of Um Warqah who was allowed by the Prophet –peace be upon him- to lead the Salat. According to the Sunan of Abu Da’ud,  the Hadith says: “Umm Waraqah wanted to accompany the Prophet –peace be upon him- to the battle of Badr, but the Prophet told her to stay in her home.” Further in this Hadith it is said that the Prophet –peace be upon him- used to visit her in her home. He appointed a person to give Adhan for her and he told her to lead the prayer for the people of her house (Ahl dariha). Abdur Rahman ibn Khallad (the reporter of this Hadith) said, “I saw her mu’adhin who was a very old man.” (Abu Da’ud 500). In another reports of this Hadith it is said that the Prophet told her to lead the prayers of the women of her house (nisa’ dariha). (Reported by Dar Qutni). This Hadith does not give permission to women to lead the Salat of men in the Masjid, it is restricted to home and according to some version only for the women of the home.  Most of the scholars of Hadith and Fiqh did not use this as a general permission of the Prophet for women to be Imams of the Masajid and lead men and women in prayers.  If this would have been the general case then many other very able and qualified women in the time of the Prophet and after him would have been leading Salat in the Masajid.   We pray to Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala that we sincerely follow His Din without any innovation or exaggeration.  Ameen. Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi is the Chairman of the Fiqh council of north America.

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
MIT
03/22/05 at 05:05:38
assalaamu alaikum Jannah, What i think is funny how you automatically translated my "wood for the trees" to the American version "forest for the trees" :) Anyhow back to the issue at hand. I think that mainstream Muslims in the US have to stand up to these guys. These people are not going to rest with this. This particular group are going to take advantage of your kindness and your giving benefit of the doubt, and you will be overrun by them. This stunt will only serve to give confidence to every other whacko who has some strange understanding of Islam to come out and declare what s/he believes is wrong with Islam. And believe me, America already has enough of those.* Even if all the masajid were suddenly to open up good facilities for the sisters, this group would find something else to rally for: gay rights for Muslims or something. And then what would American Muslims do? Call for calm? They are changing your religion in front of your nose. There are a handful of Muslim scholars and researchers who have been following this movement for over a decade and this event is not a one-off. Do you remember that RAND document that caused a stir some months ago? Most people were shocked. But what was suggested in the document has actually been policy for a long time. Its already been, and being actioned. It is just part of an on-going policy to water down Islam. * None of those are on the forum though:)

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
bhaloo
03/22/05 at 20:58:18
[slm] [quote author=MIT link=board=ummah;num=1110052745;start=20#26 date=03/22/05 at 05:05:38] Anyhow back to the issue at hand. I think that mainstream Muslims in the US have to stand up to these guys. These people are not going to rest with this. This particular group are going to take advantage of your kindness and your giving benefit of the doubt, and you will be overrun by them. This stunt will only serve to give confidence to every other whacko who has some strange understanding of Islam to come out and declare what s/he believes is wrong with Islam. And believe me, America already has enough of those. [/quote] I completely agree.  If people just sit by and do nothing, this is just going to continue and  there are going to be more screwed up and unislamic things spreading.   Look at these "homosexual muslims" their deviant groups are spreading, as are these "quran" only people.  Normal, decent, practicing Muslims are just sitting by and doing nothing and taking a I don't care attitude and let someone else worry about it.  Allah (SWT) has blessed some people with knowledge and what do they do with it, they hide it and don't share it with others, and it leaves these other people ignorant.   I received this fatawa as well and it goes into a little more detail with regards to the 4 schools, alhumdullilah. Question: Why cant muslims get with the modern times and allow women to lead in prayer? Dr. Amina Wadud, professor of Islamic studies at Virginia Commonwealth University, will be the first woman to lead a public, mixed-gender Friday prayer in the modern day. Is there any possible objection you can have to this historic event? Ustadh Abdullah's Response: Can a Woman Lead Men in Salat? Let's get right to the point. The first problem with this scheduled event is that the theme is `Muslim Women Reclaim Right to Lead Prayer,' while it should read `Muslim Women Claim Right to Lead Prayer,' since there is no basis for the belief that it was ever a right for women to lead a mixed-group prayer. And there are no explicit accounts of women ever leading a mixed-group of men and women in prayer. Three of the four Sunni Schools of law (Hanafis, Shafi'is, and Hanbalis) permit for a woman to lead other women in prayer except that the one leading is not to stand out in front of the row.[1] Rather, she is to remain aligned in a single row with the other women, so as not to appear to be leading as a man would. They base this on the following reports: 1- Imam Baihaqi, Daraqutni, and Ibn Abi Shayba report from Ra'ita Al-Hanafiyya that she said: "'Aisha led us. And she stood between us during the obligatory prayer." 2- Ibn Abi Shayba and `Abdur-Razzaq Al-San'ani report by way of Hujayra bint Husayn that she said: "Umm Salama led us in Salatul- `Asr. And she stood between us."[2] Imam Al-Nawawwi says about these two hadiths, Daraqutni and Baihaqi related them with sahih chains.[3] As for Imam Malik and the popular view held in the Maliki School, any prayer that a woman leads others in – whether women, men, or mixed – is invalid. Ali ibn Abi Talib is reported to have said, "The woman is not to lead (Salat)."[4] This was also the view of Sulaiman ibn Yasar and Al-Hasan Al-Basari.[5] As for the other three schools, their position in general[6] was that it is permitted for women to lead other women in Salat. As for the cause of this disagreement, we can reasonably say that it is the direct result of the different views of the Sahaba, in so much as that 3 of the Imams adopted the views of Umm Salama and `Aisha who were both wives of the Prophet – while Imam Malik and those who held the same view accepted the report of `Ali ibn Abi Talib -. If we were Hanafis, it would be easy to resolve this matter by just having everyone follow the particular Companion's opinion we deem most worthy of following. If one is a Maliki, it would similarly seem easy to resolve by just ascertaining that there was a consensus found among the scholars of Medinah during Malik's time that went contrary to these hadiths supported by the majority. But if a Muslim is one who champions the hadith of the Prophet and doesn't place anything over it – as is the view of Shafi'i and Ahmad, the solution would seem easy to resolve by simply relying on the most authentic report found that demonstrates what the Prophet's sunnah was in this regard, since it is possible that some Sahaba heard what others may have not. So after searching, we find that the strongest report found that goes back to the Prophet is the following: Abu Dawud reports that Umm Waraqa y said, "I said: "O Messenger of Allah! Permit for me to participate in the raid with you. I'll nurse your sick. Perhaps Allah will grant me martyrdom." He said: "Remain in your house. For verily Allah I will grant you martyrdom." And she asked his permission to take a muadhdhin in her home. And he allowed her." In another version Abu Dawud reports: "The Messenger of Allah e used to visit her in her house. And he assigned to her a muadhdhin who would make the summons to prayer (adhan) for her. And he ordered her to lead the inhabitants of her home." The hadith was reported by Baihaqi, Daraqutni, and Hakim. And Hakim said, "Muslim advanced Al-Walid ibn Jami' (one of the narrators) as being authoritative.[7] But this is a hadith with a single chain of narration (sunnah ghariba). I don't know of any hadith with a connected chain to the Prophet (musnad) in this chapter other than this one." And Imam Dhahabi concurred with his findings[8]. Al-Mundhiri said, "Al-Walid ibn Jami' is the subject of dispute (fihi maqal). And Muslim has reported through him." Ibn Al-Qattan said, "Al-Walid's state isn't known."[9] Ibn Hibban mentioned him in (his book) Al-Thiqat (Trustworthy Narrators).[10] And Ibn Hajar said, "In its chain is `Abdur-Rahman ibn Khallad (a second questionable narrator). And his status is unknown (fihi jahala)." If this is true in that this report has two suspect narrators, Al- Walid ibn Jami' and `Abdur-Rahman ibn Khallad, then this hadith can't really have much if any authority. And if it had not been for its weakness, it could be used by those who argue for the right of women leading men in prayer to support their argument even though the indications in the hadith are very subtle. That is, the fact that it states that the Prophet – assigned a muadhdhin for her and then ordered her to lead those in her house in prayer, gives the impression that she led at least one man in prayer who was likely a bondsman or unmarriageable relative of hers, since she would only be allowed to keep the company of a bondsman or a male relative, and men are usually those who make the call to prayer. One could just as well assume that the muadhdhin appointed by Allah's Messenger e while presuming the hadith is authentic – was another woman, and that Umm Waraqa led a group of women in prayer as the other authentic reports make clear.[11] But all of this is overshadowed by the weakness of the hadith. So it falls as a basis for argument. Another important point is that Imam Abu Ja'far Ibn Jarir Al-Tabari (died 310 AH) held the view that a woman could lead Salat in spite of it being a view never accepted by the Ummah, and it has never been witnessed in all of Islamic history.[12] Imam Al-Tabari was an absolute mujtahid and is known as the Imam of the Exegetes (Mufassirin). But his school didn't thrive and it didn't last as the 4 surviving schools did. So his view is extremely ancient and contradicts what the Ummah later unanimously agreed upon in that a woman cannot lead a man in prayer. Add to that, it would difficult to know what exactly Imam Al-Tabari based his ijtihad on today, since his school hasn't been preserved with an unbroken chain as the 4 schools have. So are we to accept his opinion just because it was an opinion without proper scrutiny and research? Furthermore, what lends to the understanding that a woman's proper place is not leading a man in prayer are the following: - If it was permissible, it would have been reported from the Salaf. - Since the Sunnah for women in prayer is for them to be behind the men, it is known from that that it is not permitted for them to be in front of them. For Abdullah bin Mas'ud said: "Put them back to where Allah put them back." Al-San'ani and Tabarani reported it. It is also mentioned in Majma' Al-Zawa'id. And for that reason, some of the allowed them to lead other women, since they are all to align straight in one row. - The Prophet also said, "The best ranks of the men are those at the front. And the worst of them are those at the back. And the best ranks of the women are those at the back. And the worst of them are those at the front." And if the Messenger – had intended any other arrangement for women in Salat, then we would have found him at least on one occasion allow the women to pray directly behind him or for a woman to lead the men in Salat. So we are to understand that this is from the divinely inspired direction of the Creator. And to contravene it would be to question His wisdom. And to question His wisdom, would be to follow in the footsteps on Satan. And to follow in the footsteps of Satan, one is surely to be damned as he is. So it becomes clear that such people who insist on the permissibility of a woman leading men in prayer have nothing firm to rely on in their position other than the following of their fancies and what their lusts dictate to them. The Issue of Apostasy The next important question would be, are such people Muslims who contravene the consensus of the Ummah, which upholds that a woman leading men in prayer is prohibited? The short answer is, no! But that `no' is a `no' that doesn't remove the danger from being damned by the Almighty One. In other words, the decisive consensus for Sunnis cannot be violated. Were one to contravene that consensus, he/she would be considered an apostate from Islam. But this consensus is one that occurred after a well-known disagreement due to the view of Al-Tabari and Abu Thawr. And scholars have differed about whether or not contravening this kind of consensus is enough to expel a person beyond the pale of Islam. [13] One can also reply that the Shiites do not consider consensus to have the same authority that Sunnis do. And they do not accept it. But we can reply that in spite of that Shiites do not allow for women to lead men in prayer. So even though they may not consider it to be a valid source of law, their practice shows that they share with Sunnis in their traditional belief that a woman may not lead the Jumu'a prayer or any other prayer for that matter unless it be a woman leading other women in a prayer that is not Jumu'a. So even if Shiites don't accept scholarly consensus as a valid source of law, they do accept that Allah says in the Qur'an, "Whoever splits from the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him, and then follows other than the way of the believers, We will turn him to what he has turned, and enter him into Hell. And how evil a destination!" [4:115] And it is the way of the believers that from the time of the Prophet e until now that no woman has ever been reported leading the Jumu'a Prayer, Eid Prayer, or any other prayer when those being led were a mix of men and women. In the end, I seriously doubt that many people will be in attendance at this event, at least not many real men or women. We know that the enemies of Islam have many tactics they use in trying to get a misdirected and emotional response out of the Muslims. And perhaps they do that in order to produce a situation where they can justify taking action against those they label as extremists, radicals, terrorists, and fundamentalists. I think that if people want to make up their own religion, let them do as they like. We just ask them to give us a little respect and not call it Islam, and don't call themselves Muslims. That's all. Was Salam Abdullah bin Hamid Ali Ustadh Abdullah bin Hamid Ali is the first American to attend and graduate from the University of Al- Qarawiyeen's Faculty of Shariah The focus of his study was the understanding of the science of fiqh, Usool Al-Fiqh, and`Aqeedah. Footnotes: --------------------------------------------------------------------- [1] This was also the view of Imams Awza'i and Thawri. [2] Ibn Abi Shayba also reports from Umm Al-Hasan that she saw Umm Salama lead the women. And she would stand with them in their rank. [3] Al-Majmu' li al-Nawawwi: 4/173. [4] Imam Sahnun reported it in Al-Mudawwana Al-Kubra from Ibn Wahb from Ibn Abi Dhi'b from a client of Banu Hashim from `Ali ibn Abi Talib that he said: "The women is not to lead." [Al-Mudawwana: 1/85] [5] Al-Majmu' li Al-Nawawwi: 4/173. [6] Abu Hanifa's view was that it was permitted but with dislike [Al-Majmu': 4/173]. [7] Just because Imam Muslim relates a hadith on the authority of a suspect narrator doesn't automatically make that narrator's reports acceptable in other places, because Imam Muslim merely relates a report from such a narrator when there are other versions of the same report that strengthen it. [8] Imam Hakim Al-Nisapuri has a book he wrote entitled `Al- Mustadrak', which contains a number of hadiths that fulfill the conditions of the Sahihs of Imams Bukhari and Muslim that neither of them reported in their two books. But after the scholars had a close look at Al-Mustadrak they found that many of the claims made by Imam Hakim weren't true. For that reason, his claims of the hadiths reported in that book are usually not accepted unless Imam Dhahabi concurs with his findings. [9] To be unknown (majhul) is of two kinds according to the scholars of hadith. 1) To be an unknown person altogether (majhul al-`ayn), and 2) to be of unknown status (majhul al-hal) such that a person may be known but his character and memory will be unknown. Refer to the books related to the science of hadith like Suyuti's Tadrib Al- Rawi Sharh Taqrib Al-Nawawi. [10] Simply to be mentioned in a book dedicated to trustworthy narrators doesn't render a narrator to be trustworthy, because many times the author will mention a kind of narrator whose mention wasn't the original intent of the work. Add to that, a hadith isn't authenticated just because its narrators are trustworthy. [11] One might respond that the word used in the hadith was muadhdhin – for the male – not `muadhdhinah' – for the female. So it is clear that it was a male. If someone says this, we can respond by saying two things: 1) Sometimes the male is used and the female is intended as in most of the verses of the Qur'an and the hadiths, for example, the hadith that states, "None of you will believe until he loves for his brother what he loves for his self." Are we to assume this hadith doesn't apply to women? 2) is that even if we accept that the muadhdhin was male, the hadith is still not clear in that he participated in the prayer, since it is possible that all he did was call the adhan and then leave the room or the house. [12] Bidaya al-Mujtahid: 1/206. Abu Thaur also held this view. [13] Refer to Tuhfat Al-Murid Sharh Jawharat Al-Tawhid of Baijuri
03/22/05 at 21:00:39
bhaloo

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
amatullah
03/23/05 at 14:14:20
ÞÇá  ÊÚÇáì : "æóáÇ ÊóÊóãóäøóæúÇ ãóÇ ÝóÖøóáó Çááøóåõ Èöåö ÈóÚúÖóßõãú Úóáóì ÈóÚúÖò áöáÑøöÌóÇáö äóÕöíÈñ ãöãøóÇ ÇßúÊóÓóÈõæÇ æóáöáäøöÓóÇÁö äóÕöíÈñ ãöãøóÇ ÇßúÊóÓóÈúäó æóÇÓúÃóáõæÇ Çááøóåó ãöäú ÝóÖúáöåö Åöäøó Çááøóåó ßóÇäó Èößõáøö ÔóíúÁò ÚóáöíãÇð" (ÇáäÓÇÁ:32). Allah subhana wa ta'ala said: And in no wise covet those things in which Allah hath bestowed His gifts more freely on some of you than on others: to men is allotted what they earn, and to women what they earn: but ask Allah of His bounty. For Allah hath full knowledge of all things. (4:31) I find this whole situations so disturbing. It goes against what the nature that Islam intended and preserves strongly in woman. the prophet [saw] had lines of youth between the men and women and he had encouraged women to come late and leave early, all steps towards prevention of this lax attitude of mixing. How can it be right to bend infront of men then? Even to ask them somthing, in the Quran Allah says ask them from behind a veil. In the pictures i saw the men and women are in the same rows even. There is a woman in no hijab, etc. It just doesn't make sense. The fitra of women and the haya is totally against all this that is happening regardless of to what degree it is halal or haram. Personally I don't think it is right. That hadeth of Umm Waraqa has no indication that "ahlu baytiha" means including men at all. Some people say she had a man as mu'athin so she must have been his imam, but why couldn't he do the athan and go to the masjid? This is crazy world, men want the things Allah gave women and women want the things Allah gave men. Just logically a woman cannot be imam of a masjid, what happens when she has her period? Leadership in general is one thing and imama is a specific thing in Arabic as far as I understand it. They say Aisha was a leader or a great examplar or scholar etc but never an imam for women. It is wrong usage of terms and makes for confusing fiqh issues. The other thing is if you study the figh of imama it tells you as a man you are not supposed to run after it. It is a burden that people bestow upon you etc. one should never run after it in very strong terms. So how can she be a woman and demanding it? it is wrong on so many levels.

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
Kathy
03/23/05 at 18:25:40
[slm] [quote]the black issue[/quote] What's her black issue?

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
timbuktu
03/24/05 at 10:10:55
[slm] jannah, there is a Hadith which says something like the prophet [saw] said he was afraid of Muslims being misled by following ignorant imams or those who have gone astray. i saw this Hadith in Hidayatul Mustafeed, which is a translation of Fathul Majeed, by Abdur Rehman bin Hasan Aalush-sheikh. This is a shirah of Kitabut Tawheed.  (The book is with me, but I am not able to search any more). Don't you think we should be wary of such Imams?
03/25/05 at 09:12:23
timbuktu

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
jannah
03/24/05 at 14:46:26
slm, I just think there is a right way to do dawah and there is a wrong way. And there is no in-between.  Alot of Muslims go for the anti-dawah only. They have delcared her kaffir, called her evil, sent death threats, called her followers heretics. You know this kinda reminds me of Salman Rushdie and other things (ie filmmaker in Amsterdam, etc.) Even though we have so few scholars left, they do their jobs. They issue the fatwas and everyone knows the Islamic legality of things. So what else is there?? We don't even seem to leave the job to the scholars. Why make a big controversy out of it? If everyone had left well enough alone, this event would have been unremarkable and forgotten. But because some people think they are the enforcers of this deen and that only they know what is right and wrong, they have taken it upon themselves to alienate whole groups of people.  And this is NOT just the group of people participating, this carries over to the huge group of people who were undecided, all the one's in the middle just watching. I'll give you a very simple real example... a sister gaining interest in islam lately was interested in going. She said she thought it was interesting and because it was gaining press that it would be an event that would be talked about in the future and she could say that she was 'there'. Anyhow after speaking to her about it, she seemed to accept that it was kind of wack and there was no reason for her to go. However, a brother then decided to take it upon himself to declare the event, her and her followers haram and that everyone there would be haram and how could these muslim women try to do this etc etc...  so what do you think happenned? Naturally all the negativity was enough to make her back way, not only from this, but from ISLAM. Who wants to be in such a religion where what is perceived as a woman taking a step forward is condemned in such a harsh manner with such emotion, without any sensitivity or logic. So can you understand the difference between dawah and anti-dawah? They both essentially do the same thing - teach people what is islam and what is right and wrong, but the way it is done and how it is done makes such a huge impact and difference.

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
timbuktu
03/25/05 at 09:26:04
[slm] I agree with the quiet, soft dawah approach. I expect some well-thought-out responses to my post [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=madrasa;action=display;num=1111562651][i]fikr, permissible dissent, and schism[/i] [/url] in the Naseeha Corner. Regrefully most of us think we are doing jihad by declaring one or the other a kafir. It is best to leave such issues to the Ulema, and to deny the publicity of such deviant behavior. But then there are ulema, and then there are others; and these ulema differ on their emphasis. We see these differences throughout history. Take the developments in the sub-continent in the wake of the coming and gradual establishment of British rule, and the various responses from our ulema, our elites, and our masses. 1. Some chose to turn their backs and retire to the madrassas to save whatever was left of the deen in the masses, 2. some chose active armed resistance, 3. some went for the soft dawah approach, 4. some learnt the uloom of the occupiers, and developed arguments to show that Islam was the right way. 1. Some took the political field, 2. some educational, 3. some chose debate, 4. some industry. I think [i]all these approaches are genuinely right, to be followed under different circumstances . None of these is exclusively the only right way. However, the proponents of each saw the others as taking the Ummah in the wrong direction. And they fought with each other[/i]. So, today you have to take into account the fact that some of our ulema have diagnosed that these innovations are effort by the West to undermine Islam, and this is the age of information and misinformation. Couple these with the Hadith that if you see wrong being done, you must crush it, if you can. These scholars think they can crush it by issuing such edicts and threats. Some see the end-of-times approaching. It is difficult to see how to convince those who have determined that a rejection of innovation and a violent approach is needed. As I look at history, there are a few times when this approach has [i]indeed[/i] provided a homogeneous and stable society with a great deal of adherence to the Shari`ah. Despite the failings of the later Saudi rulers, (and which we know occur with regularity in human establishments), the elimination of tombs and visible shirk from the Arabian peninsuala, the establishment of a prayer-based society, the virtual elimination of theft and dacoity, are achievements that were possible only through the declarations of ibne Abdul Wahhhab and the use of the sword by the early Saudis. But I do think that [i]we should concentrate on eliminating injustices from our communities and societies[/i], and that we should learn to use hikmah rather than indignant outbursts when dealing with such attempts to divert us from the real issues.
03/30/05 at 11:38:23
timbuktu

Woman's Reflection on Leading Prayer
WhatDFish
03/26/05 at 03:44:39
a slap back to reality and truth, i hope, to all the "feminist muslims" out there . . . Woman's Reflection on Leading Prayer by Yasmin Mogahed (Friday 25 March 2005) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Given my privilege as a woman, I only degrade myself by trying to be something I’m not--and in all honesty--don’t want to be: a man. As women, we will never reach true liberation until we stop trying to mimic men, and value the beauty in our own God-given distinctiveness." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On March 18, 2005 Amina Wadud led the first female-led Jumuah (Friday) prayer. On that day women took a huge step towards being more like men. But, did we come closer to actualizing our God-given liberation? I don’t think so. What we so often forget is that God has honored the woman by giving her value in relation to God—not in relation to men. But as western feminism erases God from the scene, there is no standard left—but men. As a result the western feminist is forced to find her value in relation to a man. And in so doing she has accepted a faulty assumption. She has accepted that man is the standard, and thus a woman can never be a full human being until she becomes just like a man—the standard. When a man cut his hair short, she wanted to cut her hair short. When a man joined the army, she wanted to join the army. She wanted these things for no other reason than because the “standard” had it. What she didn’t recognize was that God dignifies both men and women in their distinctiveness--not their sameness. And on March 18, Muslim women made the very same mistake. For 1400 years there has been a consensus of the scholars that men are to lead prayer. As a Muslim woman, why does this matter? The one who leads prayer is not spiritually superior in any way. Something is not better just because a man does it. And leading prayer is not better, just because it’s leading. Had it been the role of women or had it been more divine, why wouldn’t the Prophet have asked Ayesha or Khadija, or Fatima—the greatest women of all time—to lead? These women were promised heaven—and yet they never lead prayer. But now for the first time in 1400 years, we look at a man leading prayer and we think, “That’s not fair.” We think so although God has given no special privilege to the one who leads. The imam is no higher in the eyes of God than the one who prays behind. On the other hand, only a woman can be a mother. And God has given special privilege to a mother. The Prophet taught us that heaven lies at the feet of mothers. But no matter what a man does he can never be a mother. So why is that not unfair? When asked who is most deserving of our kind treatment? The Prophet replied ‘your mother’ three times before saying ‘your father’ only once. Isn’t that sexist? No matter what a man does he will never be able to have the status of a mother. And yet even when God honors us with something uniquely feminine, we are too busy trying to find our worth in reference to men, to value it—or even notice. We too have accepted men as the standard; so anything uniquely feminine is, by definition, inferior. Being sensitive is an insult, becoming a mother—a degradation. In the battle between stoic rationality (considered masculine) and self-less compassion (considered feminine), rationality reigns supreme. As soon as we accept that everything a man has and does is better, all that follows is just a knee jerk reaction: if men have it—we want it too. If men pray in the front rows, we assume this is better, so we want to pray in the front rows too. If men lead prayer, we assume the imam is closer to God, so we want to lead prayer too. Somewhere along the line we’ve accepted the notion that having a position of worldly leadership is some indication of one’s position with God. A Muslim woman does not need to degrade herself in this way. She has God as a standard. She has God to give her value; she doesn’t need a man. In fact, in our crusade to follow men, we, as women, never even stopped to examine the possibility that what we have is better for us. In some cases we even gave up what was higher only to be like men. Fifty years ago, society told us that men were superior because they left the home to work in factories. We were mothers. And yet, we were told that it was women’s liberation to abandon the raising of another human being in order to work on a machine. We accepted that working in a factory was superior to raising the foundation of society—just because a man did it. Then after working, we were expected to be superhuman—the perfect mother, the perfect wife, the perfect homemaker—and have the perfect career. And while there is nothing wrong, by definition, with a woman having a career, we soon came to realize what we had sacrificed by blindly mimicking men. We watched as our children became strangers and soon recognized the privilege we’d given up. And so only now—given the choice—women in the West are choosing to stay home to raise their children. According to the United States Department of Agriculture, only 31 percent of mothers with babies, and 18 percent of mothers with two or more children, are working full-time. And of those working mothers, a survey conducted by Parenting Magazine in 2000, found that 93% of them say they would rather be home with their kids, but are compelled to work due to 'financial obligations'. These ‘obligations’ are imposed on women by the gender sameness of the modern West, and removed from women by the gender distinctiveness of Islam. It took women in the West almost a century of experimentation to realize a privilege given to Muslim women 1400 years ago. Given my privilege as a woman, I only degrade myself by trying to be something I’m not--and in all honesty--don’t want to be: a man. As women, we will never reach true liberation until we stop trying to mimic men, and value the beauty in our own God-given distinctiveness. If given a choice between stoic justice and compassion, I choose compassion. And if given a choice between worldly leadership and heaven at my feet—I choose heaven. Source: by courtesy & © 2005 Yasmin Mogahed
03/26/05 at 03:51:45
WhatDFish

Idiocy of Gender Equality :The Case of the Woman I
WhatDFish
03/28/05 at 11:19:20
Idiocy of Gender Equality: The Case of the Woman Imam By YAMIN ZAKARIA Published: March 23, 2005 ith the exception of the very few Prophetesses mentioned in the Old Testament, all the messengers of God mentioned in the Abrahamic religious (Islam, Christianity and Judaism) texts are male. Islam does not even make any references to any Prophetess. Furthermore, the founders and the early pioneers of all the other major religions are also predominantly male. If there is such a thing as gender equality then why would a just God deprive womankind of their share of Prophethood? Therefore, those who have their faith in gender equality that is rooted in feminism which forms part of the current secular values would naturally conclude that religions are man-made: synthetic. But this conclusion also in turn raises another question, why men have been so successful in dominating women, shaping history, society and civilisations? So, one may argue that known human history actually demonstrates the non-existence of gender equality. It is a recent invention by some idealists; in contrast, religions have always existed throughout human history as if it is an essential part of human nature.     Gender equality is the equality of sexes on every aspect to the point that the gender differences should become totally immaterial in determining the laws and values. It implies that the concept of moms and dads, brothers and sisters, husbands and wives etc. should cease to have any meaning with time. Similarly, the distinction between homosexual and heterosexual relationship would also vanish. In the name of gender equality should we reach a point where the only distinction remaining would be the bodily organs? And it is for the advocates of gender equality to clarify the limits to which this should be allowed and pursued. For those who have conviction in religion there is little scope to deny the role of gender in determining values, rights and responsibilities that are often diametrically at odds with the idea of gender equality. Male dominated Prophethood was one example, another one is: polygyny. It is clearly permitted in Islam and also found in the Biblical texts (Prophet Solomon and David). This phenomenon can also be seen in the animal kingdom, where the male species are the ones usually spreading their seeds. In contrast, women have not been given similar right to acquire multiple husbands (polyandry) and also human history shows polyandry to be of rare occurrences.   Final example of crucifixion is a reminder to those Christians that have taken up the fashionable trend of Islam-bashing using secular notions of gender equality and feminism. If you believe in gender equality can you explain why God almighty sacrificed his only begotten son in order to redeem the sins of mankind? Should He not have sacrificed a male and a female? More fundamentally, why God almighty did not even have a begotten daughter in the first place to sacrifice?   Yet, paradoxically, religious movements within the Abrahamic religions have sought to reinterpret religious texts in order to accommodate the idea of gender equality. In fact, they take so much pride in this activity that they call themselves a modernising ‘progressive’ force. But why should this be a one-way lane where religious values that are divine, reinterpreted to comply with man-made secular values? This means that the ‘progressive’ ‘religious’ movements are using secular values as the ultimate arbiter: clearly they are a fraudulent religious movement. Their activity is undermining the divine text from within that makes them more dangerous than the clearly visible belligerent apostates and infidels. Christian and Jews have officially succumbed to the secular-feminist agenda of gender equality as they have started to allow female priests and Rabbis to conduct services and this is just the beginning. Note, it may well be argued their respective religious texts do allow for female, priests and Rabbis but the point is, the impetus for these changes has come from outside. The forces of secularism in the driving seat dictating compliance to gender equality. In copycat style manner, following the footsteps of female priests and rabbis, Amina Abdul Wadud led a mix congregation of male and female Muslims in a Friday (Jumma) prayer for the first time in the 1500 years of Islamic history. Again the impetus for such acts emanates from the hostile secular environment. After the prayer, she are her clique stated that they were instilling gender equality and women’s rights. Ironically, Amina Abdul Wadud did that whilst wearing the Islamic headscarf (Hijab) which is considered by many to be at odds with gender equality and a symbol of the oppression of women! Her claims of reinterpreting the text to establish ‘justice’ for women displays her arrogance. Let us put aside the ‘evil’ and impartial men. At the very beginnings of Islam there were the wives of the Prophet (SAW) with many other female personalities, followed by the successive generation of women scholars for centuries. Do we assume that they have all failed in their fundamental duty and hence overlooked their legitimate right to lead the Friday prayer of mix congregation? To the contrary segregation of prayers was established from the onset, as women were instructed to pray behind the men. If that is the case then how women can lead the men in prayer while the rest of the women are behind the men in the first place. In any case, justice for Amina Abdul Wadud is not from within Islam but a reformed version that is in compliance to her preconceived secular values like gender equality; - the real arbiter. And not surprisingly she also favour homosexual marriages and detests the clear cut penal codes in the Quran. A clear act of apostasy! Gender equality is only an example of the general drive by the moderate brigades to constantly prove the compatibility of Islam with secular values. If Islam is proven to be compatible to secular notions, what reasons remain than for adhering to Islam? Why not simply adopt the original yard stick of secularism instead of clinging on to the secular-compatible ‘Islam’. The exercise is very much an own goal scoring and completely folly. Given the choice between a genuine Rolls Royce and a close imitation it is well-known what most rational people would opt for. The moderate brigade constantly shout about Women’s rights in Islam as a means to deflect criticisms emanating from the secular camp without once thinking about the credentials of those who are dispensing the criticisms. Do the critics have the right? To answer this question we need to examine their track record against what they preach. If they pass the test only then it makes sense to entertain their charges. Otherwise it is a pointless exercise to entertain the words of hypocrites.   As an example, the critics say polygyny as prescribed by Islam is wrong. Those who pose the questions do not officially practice polygyny but are virtually in a permanent state of polygamous relationships and even more given the level of infidelity, moral decay  and a rejection of the traditional marriage that are often replaced with the so-called open relationships. In reality, the least monogamous societies are those who advocate and pretend to be one. Also, ironically, it is the Muslim societies driven by a strict moral code exhibits greater levels of successful monogamous relationship, despite being given the right to commit polygyny. One cannot establish equality to any level without establishing genuine mutual respect from the heart. Waving the flag of women’s rights, wanting to be seen politically correct is simply pretentious. To illustrate the point, just ask the liberated women would they would feel safer in a lonely place with a group of devout Muslim men or a group of rowdy young men coming back from a party! If the men are drunk, they often lose their inhibitions and their inner traits surfaces. Their language and behaviour gets coloured by their sexual appetites. Iraq is another example, how many of the captured women were killed, raped and abused like it was done in Abu-Ghraib and other places by the flag bearers of women’s rights! In contrast, Jessica Lynch to the recent Italian journalists was released unharmed, treated well by their own words.     Finally, gender equality does not automatically result in tranquillity, harmony and a happier society. Self evident from the constant rise in divorce rates, single parents, drug dependencies, climbing suicide rates, sexual abuse etc. Relationship between the two sexes is not just a matter of treating them identically in every aspect. It must take everything into account and who better can answer that except the creator Himself. Alternatively we can choose to use our minds to determine the relationship. But that is simply guess work as nobody knows precisely what the rights and responsibilities should be, between the sexes so that a stable relationship is acquired with tranquillity.

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
Mujahideen
03/31/05 at 02:58:50
[quote author=timbuktu link=board=ummah;num=1110052745;start=30#30 date=03/24/05 at 10:10:55] jannah, there is a Hadith which says something like the prophet [saw] said he was afraid of Muslims being misled by following ignorant imams or those who have gone astray. i saw this Hadith in Hidayatul Mustafeed, which is a translation of Fathul Majeed, by Abdur Rehman bin Hasan Aalush-sheikh. This is a shirah of Kitabut Tawheed.  (The book is with me, but I am not able to search any more). Don't you think we should be wary of such Imams?[/quote] [slm]      While I’m not in favor of following very fringe opinions with respect to women leading prayer -- I am far more concerned with following those who would make Fiqh interpretations based on knowledge that a hadith went ‘something like...’ which is based upon a translation (usually a bad one), which is divorced from its circumstances and context, then interpreted by itself without consideration for the totality of hadith collections which makes it impossible to know when it was uttered by the Prophet which then makes it impossible to know if it was abrogated, which does not take into account even major principles of the methodology of Interpretation as defined by our legal tradition, etc.......      I’m far more wary with following Imams et. al. Who engage in this sort of ‘interpretation’ and ‘scholarship’. They seem to be a dime a dozen these days – people who can order their Falafel in Arabic suddenly feel they know the language well enough to interpret primary texts which are 1400 years old. They don't know MSA grammar and Syntax let alone know what differences have occured in the past 1400 years which affect reading and interpretation. Others don’t even know Arabic at all yet feel their copies of translated Bukhari, Muslim and of course their trusty Yusuf Ali translation of the Qur’an are sufficient. Perhaps a good CD program such as the ‘Islamic Scholar’ just for good measure.      If you lack the pre-requisite knowledge in order to perform ijtihad then you have absolutly no business doing such.

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
timbuktu
03/31/05 at 08:10:44
[slm] [quote author=Mujahideen link=board=ummah;num=1110052745;start=30#35 date=03/31/05 at 02:58:50]While I’m not in favor of following very fringe opinions with respect to women leading prayer -- I am far more concerned with following those who would make Fiqh interpretations based on knowledge that a hadith went ‘something like...’ which is based upon a translation (usually a bad one), which is divorced from its circumstances and context, then interpreted by itself without consideration for the totality of hadith collections which makes it impossible to know when it was uttered by the Prophet which then makes it impossible to know if it was abrogated, which does not take into account even major principles of the methodology of Interpretation as defined by our legal tradition, etc.......      I’m far more wary with following Imams et. al. Who engage in this sort of ‘interpretation’ and ‘scholarship’. They seem to be a dime a dozen these days – people who can order their Falafel in Arabic suddenly feel they know the language well enough to interpret primary texts which are 1400 years old. They don't know MSA grammar and Syntax let alone know what differences have occured in the past 1400 years which affect reading and interpretation. Others don’t even know Arabic at all yet feel their copies of translated Bukhari, Muslim and of course their trusty Yusuf Ali translation of the Qur’an are sufficient. Perhaps a good CD program such as the ‘Islamic Scholar’ just for good measure.      If you lack the pre-requisite knowledge in order to perform ijtihad then you have absolutly no business doing such. [/quote] I agree whole heartedly with you  brother, and I would like to add that "Hadith went something like this" are my words, not the words of the scholar. The scholar who wrote Fathul Majeed (shirah of Kitabut Tawheed) was a Saudi with impeccable credentials.  In fact he was the leadinmg Saudi scholar from the lineage of Sheikh ibne Abdul Wahhab, and Fathul Majeed has been written quoting all the references and context. Perhaps you can get hold of this sharh to see for yourself. The translator was Ataullah Thaqib, who again was a renowned scholar, but he just translated this book, and the translation is complete in all respects, thus it also contains the full text and references of the AHadeeth quoted. I find these texts very illuminating, because they give full texts and context and a clear discussion of the issue. It is my failing that I cannot search for the relevant topic and the Hadith in this book. So, if I have given an impression that I am the faqih, I apologise. As bro Mujahideen has pointed out, I should hold my tongue for I am ignorant. However, I have quoted "Abdur Rehman bin Hasan Aalush-sheikh", and here the Sheikh referred to is ibne Abdul Wahhab. And I am sure you will not accuse this scholar of not knowing Arabic grammar, or the AHadeeth, or the changes in language with time, or having to rely on English translations of Bukhari, etc. Secondly, I wouldn't call what he has writen as Ijtihad. Ijtihad comes when some issue isn't available in the Quran or the Sunnah. And may Allah (swt) lead us and keep us all to the right path aameen
03/31/05 at 10:59:16
timbuktu

Re: Woman leading the prayer (mixed congregation)
buL-buL
03/31/05 at 09:47:07
asalaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi this topic came up during the EZ Conference and one of the speakers said that in Islam there is always a unique stance on certain issues.  We can't follow everything that's unique, otherwise we will demolish the religion.  I believe Imam Abdul Malik said or was it Zaid Shakir...can't remember exactly.
03/31/05 at 09:49:06
buL-buL
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