Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board

A R C H I V E S

The bird or the moth?

Madina Archives


Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board

The bird or the moth?
theOriginal
05/21/05 at 15:17:28
[slm]

O bird of the morning, learn love from the moth
Because it burnt, lost its life, and found no voice.
These pretenders are ignorantly in search of Him,
Because he who obtained knowledge has not returned.

(Sa'di Shirazi)

Question: who's the ignorant pretender...the moth or the bird?

Wasalaam.
'The Pretenders'
thezman
05/23/05 at 04:32:31
  Bismillah

   [slm]

The version I'm familiar with goes like this:

O midnight bird, be like a moth in love
disappear in silence, as would a worthy dove.
while Ignorant pretenders His knowledge claim
the sages profess to His Exalted Name.

The 'Ignorant Pretenders' are the people who outwardly act devout & claim to possess knowledge of God, Islam and life.
The truely wise and learned men are the one's who are knowledgable about God.
And when they reach a level of understanding and belief, they are so consumed with God, that they don't return to the way they were before their Union with God.

Fi Amanillah
Z.
Union?
Abu_Hamza
05/23/05 at 15:40:22
[slm]

[quote author=JustOne link=board=library;num=1116703048;start=0#0 date=05/21/05 at 15:17:28] Question: who's the ignorant pretender...the moth or the bird?[/quote]

Neither, but certainly not the moth.

[quote]they don't return to the way they were before their [u]Union with God[/u]. [/quote]

What?  Does it befit Allah, 'azza wa jalla, that a creature becomes "united" with Him?
need more info....
Trustworthy
05/23/05 at 15:41:52
[slm]....

ijk....both BIRDs!!!  And why do you think neither Bro?

But don't birds eat moths?  Yes they do.

Uhm...question?  Why do the moths who are so well knowledged have to disappear?  Am I missing something?  I swear my brain is not here today.  

Allah (SWT) bless....

Ma-assalaamah.....
05/23/05 at 15:43:39
Trustworthy
Poetic Quotient
Abu_Hamza
05/23/05 at 16:15:16
[slm]

There are two kinds of people in this world:

1. Those who understand poetry.
2. Those who don't.

Be content with whatever kind Allah made you, walhamdulillah :)

P.S. I am not implying anyone here fits any of these categories.  Myself included :P
very funny...se7en!!!!  :'(
Trustworthy
05/23/05 at 16:32:38
[slm]....

Still doesn't answer my question Bro?  Enlighten me.....really!!  

Some poetry are too complex for people like me to comprehend.  I blame it on the BIRDS.

Allah (SWT) bless.....

Ma-assalaamah.....
"Take-2"
thezman
05/23/05 at 18:08:16
  Bismillah

   [slm]

1. Trustworthy- It's not about the Moth & Disappearing.
                     It's metaphorical, That the moth is so Consumed by the light,
                     that he sacrifices himself and his known world to reach the light.

  The verses before the one's 'Justone' posted are:

   From the rose garden you visited
   what gift, pray tell, have you for us?
   I Intended to bring you some roses but
   the fragrance of the rosebush so thoroughly
   overwhelmed me, that I lost them and myself.
 
   explanation: one of the devout plunged headfirst in worshiping Allah {swt}
   for a long time and was Immersed In Prayer and Contemplation.

   The level of concentration on Allah is so Intense, that he forget about
   his surroundings, that's what I meant by 'Union with God'

   There's a story which states, Ali Ibn Abi-Talib {ra} had an enemies arrow pierce
his tigh during a battle. the Sahaba {ra} tried taking it out, but was too
painful. So Ali Prayed 2 rakat to seek Allah's {swt} Aid. His concentration during
the Prayer was so Intense, that the Sahaba removed the arrow during his salat,
and he didn't notice it.

Insha Allah, I hope that shed some more light on the topic  :)

Fi Amanillah
Z.
   
   
Hmm.
Medo
05/23/05 at 19:55:49
[slm]

[quote author=Trustworthy link=board=library;num=1116703048;start=0#3 date=05/23/05 at 15:41:52]Why do the moths who are so well knowledged have to disappear?  Am I missing something?  I swear my brain is not here today.[/quote]
 
Yes. Yes you are Trustworthy. :-/  I was laughing hard about that ijk thing... Anyways, yeah uhm.. it's the bird. It's sooo the bird. I'm not good at poetry by the way.

Vote Bird! ;)


[wlm]
hmmm
bhaloo
05/24/05 at 01:47:06
[slm]

[quote author=thezman link=board=library;num=1116703048;start=0#6 date=05/23/05 at 18:08:16]
   The level of concentration on Allah is so Intense, that he forget about
   his surroundings, that's what I meant by 'Union with God'
[/quote]

Are you saying, he forgets about his surroundings so he and God are one?  Please clarify your answer fully in detail, because some thing can not be in Union with God.
no Bro. Bhaloo
thezman
05/24/05 at 02:44:21
  Bismillah

   [slm]

No brother, not actually merging/melding and becoming one entity (I haven't reached that level of Insanity)...

for example, when I pray, countless things revolve in my mind. I try to think of Allah {swt}, the meanings of the Ayat's (like putting on your game face for a specific event), but other thoughts also creep around (unintentionally) in my head like, my Itinerary for the day, a scene I saw on the show 24, etc...

It's an Innocent, unintentional act, but it does happen and I try to get a handle on what I can think about for the proper time and place. So, if I'm Praying, I should be thinking/contemplating on the Ayat's and Allah {swt}, not my itinerary, etc.

So dedication of ones mind, body and soul at that moment is exlusively for Allah.

Now, we are taught that everything we do in life is for Allah {swt}, not for personal gain. So studying should be for Allah and also for the benefit of your person and for Islam/Muslims.

Your interest & benefits in life are also share a  common ground with those of Allah's, but some times there are certain things that can't be shared. Like Ramadan, Allah says everything we do is for our benefit and to get us into Paradise. But Ramadan is an act/worship that is exclusive to Allah.

And there is a Hadith (I don't know the exact Phraseology), but it states that when a muslim is so devout and has the Iman of Allah flowing completely throughout his body, Allah becomes the eye's he sees with, the hand he strikes with, etc.

I hope all that makes some kinda sense to you  :)

Fi Amanillah
Ziad...
Question
ummnajmah
05/24/05 at 11:24:56
[quote author=thezman link=board=library;num=1116703048;start=0#9 date=05/24/05 at 02:44:21]   Bismillah

   
for example, when I pray, countless things revolve in my mind. I try to think of Allah {swt}, the meanings of the Ayat's (like putting on your game face for a specific event), but other thoughts also creep around (unintentionally) in my head like, my Itinerary for the day, a scene I saw on the show 24, etc...

 [slm]You are not talking about 24 show on Fox are you? 24 is a show that has not depicted muslims well , Why would you want to watch something like this bro Ziad? Ummnajmah.
See, I knew it was the BIRDS!!!!
Trustworthy
05/24/05 at 17:05:37
[slm]...

OK.  Bro.  I started to follow your thoughts about the Union with Allah (SWT) which I understand....

ie: I was praying one day and I was so concentrated with almost unconsious khushu that while I was in sujud, I swore I saw the Gardens of Paradise and some woman in all white (just her back) standing in the garden.  When I rose from sujud and completerd my prayer, I did not realize that my face was wet from tears and my nose running.  Then I cried for days when I realized why I was crying.

Then you lost me again where you said "And there is a Hadith (I don't know the exact Phraseology), but it states that when a muslim is so devout and has the Iman of Allah flowing completely throughout his body, Allah becomes the eye's he sees with, the hand he strikes with, etc. "

Explain again please....how does one achieve the Iman of Allah (SWT) flowing through his body...the Iman of Allah (SWT) and becomes the eyes, etc.?  How's that possible?  That's like WWAAAAAYYYYY beyond our boundaries of comprehension and understanding as humans, isn't it?  If the Prophet (SAW) fainted when he saw a glimpse of Allah (SWT), how is it possible for us to feel Allah (SWT) within us (His (SWT) Iman)?

Allah (SWT) bless....

Ma-assalaamah.....
hadith
Abu_Hamza
05/24/05 at 17:35:44
[slm]

I believe this is the hadith which the brother was talking about.  It's Hadith #38 in Imam al-Nawawi's collection of 40 Hadith:

[quote]On the authority of Abu Hurairah, who said: the messenger of Allah said: Allah the Almighty has said: "Whosoever shows enmity to a walee [friend] of Mine, I shall be at war with him. My 'abd [servant] does not draw near to Me with anything more beloved to Me than the religious duties I have made obligatory for him, and My 'abd [servant] continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works until I love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes, and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask (something) of Me, I would surely give it to him and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it."  Related by Bukhari.[/quote]

This hadith has been explained by many scholars, including Ibn Hajr al-Asqalanee, in his Commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari (Fath al-Baari).  

Wassalam.
"Behold!"
thezman
05/25/05 at 23:21:10
  Bismillah

   [slm]

1. Jazak Allah Khair Bro. Abu-Hamza, that's the Hadith  :)

2. Ummnajmah:
    I believe that muslims need to observe shows, 'experts' who are Islamophobes,
   to see what they are trying to brainwash the masses with, document it, and
   shed light on it.

    Just like the way the adversaries have Islamic sites under surveillance, the
   media in Islamic Nations, TV programs, movies, anyone preaching God's word's
   that some muslims and non-muslims are trying to outlaw.

     They accuse (for example), al-jazeera of inciting violence when it shows
   the casualties and level of destruction after the american assault on fallujah,
   or abu-ghraib, and most recently the article in newsweek pertaining to
   the flushing of the Qur'an.

     We need to archive all the things they accuse us of doing while they are
    actively pursuing that exact policy. So we can also lay claim that 24 incites
   violence and hatred towards Islam/Muslims.

     Here is a link that shows a church sign in the southern U.S. stating:
   'Let's flush the Qur'an'

   www.thedigitalcourier.com/articles/2005/05/24/news/news01.txt

      They ban Imams from entering the west and expell muslims from the west
   when they speak of jihad or ayat referring to jews in the qur'an. yet when
   General Boykin of the U.S. military gives a lecture inside a florida church while
   on active duty and states, 'our god is better than their god, their god is an
   idol' no one says boo to him, and rumsfeld refused to make him apologize.
   Yet any anti_american/western/jewish/christian statements, and they make
   the person go on live air and renounce violence and hatred, then is fired.

      Or when Reverand Graham or Pat Robertson defame Islam, no one dares to
   speak out, and if muslims do that, it only goes far as a condemnation. When
   Prime Minister Mahatir Mohammed of Malaysia said something critical of the
   Jewish people, the EU and the U.S. had a fit. Or when high ranking officials,
   like Prime Minister Sylvio Berlisconi of Italy said on 2 occassions that the
   Western Civilization is Superior to Islam's, or Pope Benedict says Europe is
   a Christian Civilization, and Turkey should be refused entry , all that is ok.
   But if any muslim, big or small should utter such words, that would be a
   crime against humanity!

      I have had it with muslims being reactionary and on the defensive, we should
   be like Mr. Galloway of England, when he was accused of misdeeds, he
   quickly countered by hurling the same accusations at the senate. we need to be
   that brave and actively defend ourselves.

3. Trustworthy:
    When the Prophet  [saw] revealed Islam and the Qur'an, the Sahaba were
   completely transformed. Allah {swt}, the Qur'an and the Sunnah was everything
   in their lives, they genuinely believed and practiced it.

    When they reached that level of faith and belief and made Allah the center
   of Creation, they were able to evolve from bedouin tribes into conquering the
   2 super powers of the known world simultaneousely and create the most
   magnificent empire in history.

     They reached a level of iman where non-muslims embraced islam not by force
   or the sword (as was done by the Byzantines, and later colonial europe where
   each nation sent missionaries along with their armies), but they embraced
   islam from observing the way Muslims acted and how they truly practiced what
   they preached.

      I am fluent in arabic, but have difficulty understanding the arabic used in
   the Qur'an, but through repetition and looking up the meaning of individual words
   and when an aya was revealed, helps. Plus, I contemplate on the Magnificence
   of God through His Creation and am in awe of the Infinite amount of Creatures
   obedient to Allah. Unfortunately man and jinn are the only rebels amongst
   His Creation.

      It helps me when I also look back at the events that occurred to me in the
   past and see that there is an order, reason, and benefit for what has happened
   to me by having those specific events occur, by meeting certain people
   along my path who had touched my life one way or the other. The incredible
   amount of detail, complexity and connectivity of each creature and it's life.

      Just contemplate and always remember Allah, and through time, you'll get
   close to Him. and the Hadith brother Hamza posted shows what Allah can do
   for us when we start doing for Allah first.

      Think of President Kennedy's quote and put an Islamic twist on it:

 "Think not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country."

  But rather say:

 "Think not what Allah can do for you, but what you can do for Allah and Islam."

 Once you start doing everything for Allah's sake, the distance between Allah
and us will no longer be there. If we forget Allah, He'll forget us. But if we
Constantly Remember and Praise Him, Insha Allah, He'll be closer to us than our own
Jugular.

 I hope that I was able to explain myself better.

 "Behold!"

The Creator's Majestic Pride,
Planted Seeds On A Mountainside.
Whose Omnipotent Essence Frees,
Me To Graden's Heavenly Wide!

In Flowers Up To My Knees,
I Stopped To Watch The Honey Bees,
Quenching Their Thirst Of Sweet Delight,
As I Drank The Nectar In The Honied Breeze.

Standing On A Heavenly Height,
I Witnessed Creation's Magnificent Sight.
I Walked In The Midst Of Man's Plight,
I Was Humbled By The Creator's Might.

In Faith I Will Live And Expire,
With Creation's Blooms To Inspire.
I Will Blossom With Radiance And Desire,
Aim Ever Higher, Grow And Never Tire.

Fi Amanillah
Ziad...

 
:)
theOriginal
05/27/05 at 00:11:51
[slm]


whyyyyyyyyyy is the translation soooooo different.  it totally ruins my theory.  


>:(

wasalaam
Theory?
thezman
05/27/05 at 00:38:43
  Bismillah

   [slm]

The translation of the poem?

What's your theory?
Good example....
Trustworthy
05/27/05 at 15:13:55
[slm]....

This is a good example of people's different interpretations of things.  I interpreted what the Bro said to a literal extent when it actaully meant spiritually, you have that oneness with Allah (SWT) when you have that "union" faith in Him (SWT).  I understand it now.  Jazakh...Bro.

I'd also like to know Sis Just One's thoughts....

Allah (SWT) bless....

Ma-assalaamah....
Thank You
thezman
05/27/05 at 17:23:25

Wa-Iyyaki Sister  :)
....-
theOriginal
05/28/05 at 09:17:28
[slm]

So I'm just curious...where did you get your translation?  I'm reading a translation of the "Gulistan" published by a local company (alhamra-pakistan)...but for some reason there is no mention of the translator's name, and this was obviously not written in English.

Anyway so my mother and I were disagreeing on the ignorant pretender...(if you read my translation).  I said it was the bird, because the moth lost its life in search of knowledge and hence lost its voice, and the bird did not attain anything.  My mom said the ignorant pretender is the moth because it died in the search of knowledge (got too greedy, hit the light and went poofy-poofy-bye-bye).  The bird should learn passion (love) for obtaining knowledge from the moth, but should be careful.

I think my mom makes more sense.

But your version rhymes, man.  That gives it more credit or something.  Also, it shoots iy theory down.

Thanks for shairng your thoughts.  I greatly appreciate it.

Wasalaam.
Salam
thezman
05/28/05 at 12:24:55
  Bismillah

Thanks JustOne for responding  :)

I got that particular version from an Iranian Professors site on: angelfire.com/
poetry...He was quoting various verses from the great persian poets.

There are many translators for the great muslim poets, and their translations always differ. Like for Rumi & Hafiz, the best translator I found to be was
Shahriar Shahriari (a mechanical engineer in California), his translations Rhyme and the words he uses are better than those of the others. Also Edward Fitzgerald is very good (he translated Omar Khayyam's quatrains).

Fi Amanillah
Ziad.


Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
A R C H I V E S

Individual posts do not necessarily reflect the views of Jannah.org, Islam, or all Muslims. All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the poster and may not be used without consent of the author.
The rest © Jannah.Org