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| circumsion |
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| saliheli |
| 06/03/05 at 16:14:52 |
| [slm] I have one friend, who is not a muslim, but it married whit a muslim. They have a 16 months old son. I asked about her if she is interested about islam, and offered to teach her and give her some books about islam. She said that she is interested about religion and culture of her husband and her child, but she has no interest of becoming a muslim. She said tha she would like some information about circumsion, because her son is about to go thourgh that some day, insha Allah. Then she said that she is not quite sure about that, because she believes, that every human has a right to decide about his own body. She would like to leave circumsion later, so that her son can decide by himself if he wants to be circumisied or not. She understands that circumsion is very inportant for her husband and his family. Can you give me some advice what I could say to her? She obviously needs more information about circumsion. In my opinion boys should be circumissied as early as possible, because I think it gets more painful when you are older. [wlm] Sari |
| That's true.... |
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| Trustworthy |
| 06/03/05 at 19:36:49 |
| [slm].. Just let her know that if she is going to let her son practice Islam with his father then circumcision is mandatory in Islam for males and it is best when they are born so that they don’t feel the pain. I remember my brother and my cousin going through it when they were like 16 or so, but at the time I had no idea. They were moaning all the time and grouchy and walked really funny. I mean really funny, I feel bad for them now but then.....well...they wore their sarrongs 24/7 and held it away from their legs. It was funny. So it's painful, I'm sure. It is sunnah for females. Everything that Allah (SWT) has made mandatory for us is good for us so there is no question about it. It has also been proven medically that circumcision is a necessity to keep the male parts clean. She can find information about the medical studies for circumcision in books and on the internet. Allah (SWT) bless.... Ma-assalaamah..... |
| sunna for women ...? |
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| saliheli |
| 06/04/05 at 14:34:50 |
| [slm] You write in your answer that "It is sunnah for females. ". I think that you made a mistake. do you have some hadith to prove this? I know tha ciscumsion is sunna for male, but for female, never I´ve heard that. [wlm] Sari |
| Re: Circumcision |
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| Aadhil |
| 06/04/05 at 17:19:26 |
| [slm] Ya I heard it's sunnah for males and considered noble for females if done properly. |
| FGM |
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| jannah |
| 06/05/05 at 01:12:37 |
| This is a good treatment of the subject of FGM and female circumcision stuff: http://jannah.org/genderequity/equityappendix.html IS FEMALE CIRCUMCISION REQUIRED One of the common misconceptions is to connect female circumcision with the teachings of Islam. This appendix addresses the following three questions: 1. WAS FEMALE CIRCUMCISION INTRODUCED BY ISLAM? While the exact origin of female circumcision is not known, "it preceded Christianity and Islam." [1] The most radical form of female circumcision (infibulation) is known as the Pharaonic Procedure. This may signify that it may have been practiced long before the rise of Islam, Christianity and possibly Judaism. It is not clear, however, whether this practice originated in Egypt or in some other African countries then spread to Egypt. [2] It is common knowledge that in some countries like Egypt, female circumcision has been practiced by both Muslims and Christians. [3] In the meantime, this practice is not known in most Muslim countries including Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. [4] This leads to the conclusion that female circumcision is connected with cultural practices rather than with Islam itself as a world religion. It was made clear in the introduction of this book that some cultural practices, whether by Muslims alone or Muslims and others (such as the case with female circumcision), are not part of Islam and in some instances may violate its teachings as embodied in its primary sources, Qur'an and Hadeeth. These sources are examined next. 2. IS THERE ANY AUTHENTIC TEXT IN THE PRIMARY SOURCES OF ISLAM WHICH REQUIRES FEMALE CIRCUMCISION FOR RELIGIOUS REASONS? No mention of female circumcision is to be found in the Qur'an either directly or indirectly. There is no known Hadeeth which requires female circumcision. Some argued, however, that one Hadeeth, while not requiring female circumcision, appears to accept it: "Circumcision is a commedable act for men (Sunnah) and is an honorable thing for women (Makromah)." [5] There are two observations on this Hadeeth: a) A distinction is made between male circumcision which is described in a stronger religious term (Sunnah) [6] or commendable while another weaker description is given to female circumcision (Makromah) which implies no religious obligation. b) This Hadeeth is of weak authenticity (dha'eef) according to Hadeeth scholars. [7] There is, however, a more authentic Hadeeth in which Prophet Muhammad (P) is reported to have passed by a woman performing circumcision on a young girl. He instructed the woman by saying: "Cut off only the foreskin (outer fold of skin over the clitoris; the prepuce) but do not cut off deeply (i.e. the clitoris itself), for this is brighter for the face (of the girl) and more favorable with the husband." [8] While the Prophet (P) did not explicitly ban this practice, his words project a great deal of sensitivity to the instinctive needs of females and their matrimonal happiness and legitimate enjoyment. Reference to the brightness of the face and to better relationship with the husband are clear indications of his senstivity and compassion. They also stand in contrast to the arguments that female circumcision "controls" the woman's sexual appetite and hence contributes to sexual morality and virtue in society. It is true that Islam requires adherents of both genders to be chaste. Yet, there is no text in the Qur'an or Sunnah which requires selective curtailment or control of the sexual desire of one specific gender. Furthermore, chastity and virtue are not contingent on "cutting off" part of any sensitive and crucial human organ. Rather, they are contingent on spiritual and moral values of the person and the supporting virtuous environments. 3. SHOULD FEMALE CIRCUMCISION BE BANNED OR RESTRICTED? Shari'ah (Islamic law) divides actions into five categories; mandatory, commendable, permissible, detestable and strictly forbidden. Female circumcision falls within the category of the permissible. It was probably on this basis that some scholars opposed a sweeping ban of this practice. Before discussing this view, it is important to distinguish between different types of procedures that were and still are called circumcision. TYPES OF CIRCUMCISION a) Removal of the hood (or prepuce) of the clitoris. This procedure is, to some degree, analgous to male circumcision since in both cases, no part of the sexual organ is cut off. In both cases also, it is only the foreskin, or outer fold of the skin, which is cut off. Properly done, it is not likely to cause any "matrimonial" problem. While some may call it "sunnah circumcision," this is their own appellation and not that of the Prophet (P) who used the term Sunnah only in the context of male circumcision. b) Removal of the entire clitoris (clitorectomy) along with part of the labia minora, which is satured together leaving an opening. This is a form of mutilation. c) Removal of the entire clitoris, labia minora and medial part of the labia majora, whith both sides of the female organ stitched together leaving a small opeing. This procedure requires tying together the child's legs of nearly three weeks. [9] It is called the Pharaonic procedure but may as well be called "mutilation". It is obvious that the second and third procedures were never mandated, encouraged or even consented to by the Prophet (P). They even violate a known rule in Shari'ah prohibiting the cutting off of any part of the human body except for unavoidable reasons (e.g. medical treatment, trimming nails or hair, or for an explicitly specified reason such as male circumcision). Such necessity or need does not exist in female circumcision. Nothing justifies genital mutilation. In fact, no mutilation is allowed by Islam even in the battlefield. Not only are these two procedures unjustifiable, they are brutal, inhumane and in violation of Islam. The remaining question then relates to the first procedure. Some (e.g. the late Rector of Al-Azhar University, Sheikh Gad Al-Haque) argued that since the Prophet (P) did not ban female circumcision, it falls within the category of the permissble. As such, there is no ground for a total ban on it. However, it is within the spirit of Shari'ah to restrict something that is permissible if discovered to be harmful. For example, all fish are permisible to eat. Should a particular type of fish be proven to be poisonous or harmful, it could be banned based on a known Shari'ah rule (Al-dharar Yozaal), or harm must be removed. The real issue then boils down to whether the first procedure is harmful or not. Granted that such a procedure may not be seriously damaging like the other two, it may be argued that it is painful, traumatic and often performed in an unhygienic setting leading to infection and other problems. [10] Even if the procedure is performed by a physician, it is so delicate that not all physicians master it. [11] It should be noted that some people oppose female circumcision as part of their opposition to any "tradition" as old and invalid. This is as inappropriate as practicing female circumcision because it is a "tradition," regardless of its consistency with Islam or not. The practice should be evaluated objectively, on the basis of a)whether it is required religiously or not b) whether there are medical and other relevant issues to be considered in evaluating this practice. While any form of female circumcision is already legally banned in some countries [12] and may be banned in others in the future, it is not suggested here that this is the only option. In societies and cultures where the practice is well entrenched and socio-cultural pressures for it are great [13], abrupt legal banning may not end the practice. It may cause it to be practiced "underground" and under more problematic circumstances. However the problem is serious enough that some action is needed. A starting point, perhaps, is to begin by educationg the masses in countries where female circumcision is commonly practiced. All possible media should be used in the process. The contents of this appendix may serve as an outline of such an educational program, or it is so hoped. In any case, the conclusion which appears to be certain is that there is no single text of the Qur'an and Hadeeth which requires [14] female circumcision. |
| it is better to do as early as possible |
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| sal |
| 06/05/05 at 03:23:38 |
| [quote]Then she said that she is not quite sure about that, because she believes, that every human has a right to decide about his own body. [/quote] I think the matter of a person to decide for every thing needed to be removed from his body is not a realistic rule. Doctors for example advice patients to go under surgery when there is a need for that. The ill agrees without liking the operation but the result There are many situations family and freinds decide on behalf of the person if it is compulsory So I think this is the same thing .It is not necessary to make a child wait till he grows up to decide as it will one day be done according to what his religion advices him to . Besides there are many things children do not like if they were asked to choose yet parents deicide for them as one of their duty toward them ,thus if she is not against the circumcision itself it is better to do as early as possible |
| 06/05/05 at 03:25:58 |
| sal |
| Forgive me.... |
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| Trustworthy |
| 06/06/05 at 18:47:55 |
| [slm]... I thought I could find something to what I said on the internet in an instance, but looks like I'll have to do more searching. I read Jannah's post and mainly that is what everyone seems to agree with. I wrote the above from what I grew up hearing. That is is mandatory for men, but sunnah for women. Now I will actually have to go and do some research on this, look through all my hadith book and such. My mom told me it was sunnah and wanted me to do this when my first was born. She had suggested a lady of the family who has done it numerous times, but I would not have it. I told her if I could not find a doctor who was experienced in doing this then my girls will be fine. Luckily, I couldn't find any doctor who would do it period. They all probably thought I was crazy or something. Jazakh....for the heads up. I'll go do some research and get back to you if I find anything close to what I said. I thought that's what my Imam said to, but now I'm not really sure. Allah (SWT) bless... Ma-assalaamah..... |
| Islam |
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| bhaloo |
| 06/12/05 at 09:44:03 |
| [slm] [quote author=saliheli link=board=lighthouse;num=1117829692;start=0#0 date=06/03/05 at 16:14:52] She said that she is interested about religion and culture of her husband and her child, but she has no interest of becoming a muslim.[/quote] Why does she feel that way? If she learns about Islam and realizes that its truth, why wouldn't she accept Islam? She should have an open mind. |
| islam |
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| saliheli |
| 06/14/05 at 15:59:43 |
| [slm] Yes, if someone wants to know about islam and he or she has a pure, clean heart, Allah (subhaanahu wa ta´aala) will open his or her heart for islam. That´s what happend to me too. I wanted to know about religion of my husband and I had clean intentions, so Allah (SWT) guided me in the right way. Alhamdu li Allah that my husband is a muslim and he saved me from terrible life I was living before, going to discos, drinking alcohol etc. I want to forget all my past. One of my muslim sisters told me that allah must love me very much because he guided me to islam. As for this girl who is not interested in becoming a muslim, I think she is a Kaafiruun, she doesn´t believe in anything. It is very difficult to become a muslim if your heart is very very close. Insha Allah I will try to teach her about islam and speak with her. Let´s see how it goes... [wlm] Sari |
| Here's what I found... |
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| Trustworthy |
| 06/21/05 at 15:44:14 |
| [slm]... Hope oyu are well insha-Allah. Well through numerous searching in books and the net along with Imams that I know, it all came to what is said below. The hadith that I thought I grew up with is actual not authentic enough for me. Hope you will do the same as to not take someone's word for it and instead find the answers yourself. I hope below clarifies this issue: http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/Articles/circumcision.htm "The practices related to Fitrah are five: circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and removing the hair of the armpits." (Related by Bukhari, al-Muwatta & the Group) The Prophet (s.A.w.) told a man who had just embraced Islam, "Remove the hairs from the time of disbelief from you and get yourself circumcised." (Related by Ahmad, Abu Dawud & al-Bayhaq) Shaykh Abdullah Nasih Ulwan wrote in Tarbiyatul Awlad fil Islam (1/124): "Circumcision has been ordered. It is one of the Fitra (natural) acts of cleanliness. It has been legislated as a completion of purification in the case of men. For that reason, it is obligatory. The Hadith: "Remove the hairs from the time of disbelief from you and get yourself circumcised." apparently implies obligation (…) However, if it may cause the new Muslims to flee from Islam, this order may be delayed after they have become steadfast in Islam and they love Islam." The Shafi'i school says that circumcision is obligatory (Fard) upon the men and the women. While Imam Ahmad said: "Circumcision is obligatory (Wajib) upon the men and it is only good for the women". Ibn Abbas, one of the most liberal Fuqaha' among the Sahabah recommends circumcision strongly, saying that the prayer (Solah) and the Hajj of a man who is not circumcised are of no value. Imam Malik said that an uncircumcised man cannot lead the prayer although Qadi Iyadh, one of the later Maliki scholars from the Murabitun (western Muslimdom) says that it is Makruhat (disliked) for the uncircumcised Imam to lead the prayer. Ibn Hajr al-Haytami's work of al-Zawajir 'an Iqtiraf al-Kaba'ir which is similar to ad-Dhahabi's work of al-Kaba'ir (the Great Sins), lists down actions that the Jumhur of Fuqaha' has agreed upon as acts of misconduct. Under the chapter of 'Justice', Ibn Hajr writes: "men not getting circumcised, even after having reached puberty (Baligh) is an enormity" if done so without a valid reason. For more detailed references see: Al-Sharh al-Kabir 2/126; Sharh ar-Risalah 1/393; Al-Mughni 1/58; al-Qawanin al-Fiqhiyyah pg. 192; al-Ifsah li Ibn Habirah 1/206; al-Darar al-Mubahah fi al-Hazr wa al-Ibahah li al-Shaybani al-Nahlawi pg. 33 and Sharh al-Inayah ala al-Hidayah fi Takmilah al-Fath vol. 8 pg. 99. Abdullah Ibn Jabir (r.a.) and Aisha (r.a.) said: "The Prophet (s.A.w.) performed the Aqiqah of al-Hasan and al-Hussein and circumcised them on the 7th. day." (Related by al-Bayhaq & Tabarani) Circumcision of Girls (Khafd): If the circumcision of women is to be done, it involves cutting only the outer portion of the clitoris and not as is done in some Muslim countries as cutting off all the entire clitoris. 'Female circumcision' of the type practised by some people in Somalia, Egypt and some other African countries is a mutilation forbidden in Islam. There is a Hadith reported by Umm 'Atiyyah: "A woman used to perform circumcision in Madinah. The Prophet (s.A.w.) said to her: 'When you circumcise, do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.'" (Related by Abu Dawud & al-Bayhaq) When explaining this Hadith, the Ulama' say this Hadith points out that if a woman is circumcised, it would make her more sensitive during sexual intercourse and that they are told not to cut off all the clitoris for this would result in sexual problems. It is only removing the prepuce (bazr) of the clitoris, not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert. Most Ulama' say that this Hadith does not convey that it is an obligation for it only carries a request. The Hadith quoted above may be speaking about a social custom where women used to be circumcised. Furthermore this Hadith is considered Da'if (a weak Hadith). Abu Dawud himself commented: "It is not a strong tradition. It has been transmitted in Mursal form (missing link of the Sahabah). A narrator, Muhammad bin Hassan is obscure, and this Hadith is Da'if." For most of the Shafi'i school, circumcision is obligatory upon the women. While the Hanbali school and few scholars of the Shafi'i school holds that circumcision of women is not obligatory but Sunnah, while the Hanafi and the Maliki consider it a mere courtesy to the husband. And according to some scholars, female circumcision is customarily done in a hot climate. (Fiqh al-Islam wa Adillatihi 3/741) Allah (SWT) bless.... Ma-assalaamah.... |
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